|
2015-06-01 17:53:19
|
<thcipriani>
|
#startmeeting Deployment Systems Weekly Triage
|
|
2015-06-01 17:53:20
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting started Mon Jun 1 17:53:19 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is thcipriani. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
|
|
2015-06-01 17:53:20
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
|
|
2015-06-01 17:53:20
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
The meeting name has been set to 'deployment_systems_weekly_triage'
|
|
2015-06-01 17:53:31
|
<twentyafterfour>
|
woo
|
|
2015-06-01 17:53:42
|
<thcipriani>
|
#link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Deployment_tooling/Meetings/2015-06-01 Agenda
|
|
2015-06-01 17:54:05
|
<thcipriani>
|
#topic In-Progress Update
|
|
2015-06-01 17:54:41
|
<thcipriani>
|
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T97068
|
|
2015-06-01 17:54:47
|
<thcipriani>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T97068
|
|
2015-06-01 17:55:51
|
<thcipriani>
|
#action twentyafterfour touch t97068 then, pretty much done.
|
|
2015-06-01 17:56:08
|
<thcipriani>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T92501
|
|
2015-06-01 17:57:47
|
<thcipriani>
|
#topic To Triage
|
|
2015-06-01 18:00:05
|
<thcipriani>
|
#action ReleaseTaggerBot tasks in To Triage to Backlog
|
|
2015-06-01 18:04:13
|
<thcipriani>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T99776
|
|
2015-06-01 18:05:42
|
<twentyafterfour>
|
#action T97140 = move to backlog, priority normal: scap eats underlying commands output (such as maintenance script stacktrace)
|
|
2015-06-01 18:06:10
|
<thcipriani>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T100575
|
|
2015-06-01 18:06:58
|
<thcipriani>
|
#action T100575 to backlog
|
|
2015-06-01 18:07:07
|
<legoktm>
|
we're having these meetings now? o.o
|
|
2015-06-01 18:07:41
|
<thcipriani>
|
legoktm: Just having a triage of the deployment systems workboard right now
|
|
2015-06-01 18:09:29
|
<legoktm>
|
yeah, trying to figure out if I missed an email
|
|
2015-06-01 18:10:36
|
<thcipriani>
|
legoktm: I can add you to the meeting invite :)
|
|
2015-06-01 18:10:51
|
<legoktm>
|
but was there an email to lists or something?
|
|
2015-06-01 18:11:06
|
<legoktm>
|
I'm not sure what the scope of the meeting is
|
|
2015-06-01 18:11:19
|
<legoktm>
|
reads up
|
|
2015-06-01 18:18:34
|
<andre__>
|
just FYI: Open "Deployment-Systems" tasks by priority: 13% high; 60% normal; 19% low; 7% lowest. 97 open tasks. Now figure out if that's realistic. :)
|
|
2015-06-01 18:21:12
|
<thcipriani>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T100599
|
|
2015-06-01 18:23:57
|
<thcipriani>
|
#idea deployment system workboard v deployment system tag
|
|
2015-06-01 18:25:03
|
<thcipriani>
|
#endmeeting
|
|
2015-06-01 18:25:04
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting ended Mon Jun 1 18:25:03 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
|
|
2015-06-01 18:25:04
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-01-17.53.html
|
|
2015-06-01 18:25:04
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (text): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-01-17.53.txt
|
|
2015-06-01 18:25:04
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (wiki): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-01-17.53.wiki
|
|
2015-06-01 18:25:04
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Log: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-01-17.53.log.html
|
|
2015-06-01 18:51:39
|
<hashar>
|
o/
|
|
2015-06-01 18:51:49
|
<thcipriani>
|
ohai
|
|
2015-06-01 18:51:56
|
<zeljkof>
|
#releng all the things!
|
|
2015-06-01 18:52:36
|
<zeljkof>
|
twentyafterfour: https://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
|
|
2015-06-01 18:52:42
|
<twentyafterfour>
|
#startmeeting Beta Bug Triage
|
|
2015-06-01 18:52:42
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting started Mon Jun 1 18:52:42 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is twentyafterfour. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
|
|
2015-06-01 18:52:42
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
|
|
2015-06-01 18:52:42
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
The meeting name has been set to 'beta_bug_triage'
|
|
2015-06-01 18:52:43
|
<zeljkof>
|
teh docz
|
|
2015-06-01 18:52:50
|
<hashar>
|
o/
|
|
2015-06-01 18:53:03
|
<thcipriani>
|
o/
|
|
2015-06-01 18:53:19
|
<zeljkof>
|
o/
|
|
2015-06-01 18:53:44
|
<twentyafterfour>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/beta-cluster/
|
|
2015-06-01 18:53:54
|
<hashar>
|
#info Most conversation is happening over a hangout
|
|
2015-06-01 18:54:10
|
<twentyafterfour>
|
We shall attempt to clear the To Triage column
|
|
2015-06-01 18:54:30
|
<hashar>
|
using natural sort right?
|
|
2015-06-01 18:55:11
|
<twentyafterfour>
|
resolved T98204
|
|
2015-06-01 19:00:08
|
<twentyafterfour>
|
Most of these look valid, mass backlogging some
|
|
2015-06-01 19:05:19
|
<hashar>
|
T100542 ResourceLoader urls with certain version serving different content on beta cluster
|
|
2015-06-01 19:05:47
|
<hashar>
|
need a reliable way to purge cache which is https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T99096 Varnish cache busting desired for /static/$VERSION/ resources which change within the lifetime of a WMF release branch
|
|
2015-06-01 19:09:14
|
<hashar>
|
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T71785
|
|
2015-06-01 19:09:20
|
<hashar>
|
Add RecentActivityFeed extension to beta labs
|
|
2015-06-01 19:10:05
|
<thcipriani>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T97775
|
|
2015-06-01 19:11:22
|
<twentyafterfour>
|
#link phabricator has the feed of changes: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/feed/497/
|
|
2015-06-01 19:12:18
|
<hashar>
|
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T100806
|
|
2015-06-01 19:12:26
|
<hashar>
|
LocalGlobalUserPageCacheUpdateJob
|
|
2015-06-01 19:13:56
|
<twentyafterfour>
|
Fatal error: /srv/mediawiki/wikiversions-labs.cdb has no version entry for `nnwiki`
|
|
2015-06-01 19:17:25
|
<hashar>
|
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T100694 kept open till we are sure there is no more error logs emitted
|
|
2015-06-01 19:22:15
|
<thcipriani>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T95564
|
|
2015-06-01 19:25:49
|
<twentyafterfour>
|
resolved T95564
|
|
2015-06-01 19:27:26
|
<twentyafterfour>
|
Ran out of time. Tons of "To Triage" remain, see you next week.
|
|
2015-06-01 19:27:29
|
<twentyafterfour>
|
#endmeeting
|
|
2015-06-01 19:27:29
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting ended Mon Jun 1 19:27:29 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
|
|
2015-06-01 19:27:29
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-01-18.52.html
|
|
2015-06-01 19:27:29
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (text): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-01-18.52.txt
|
|
2015-06-01 19:27:29
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (wiki): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-01-18.52.wiki
|
|
2015-06-01 19:27:30
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Log: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-01-18.52.log.html
|
|
2015-06-01 19:27:38
|
<hashar>
|
\O/
|
|
2015-06-01 21:57:11
|
<matanya>
|
rdaiccherlb: have a moment ?
|
|
2015-06-01 22:11:51
|
<rdaiccherlb>
|
matanya, sure, what's up?
|
|
2015-06-01 22:12:41
|
<matanya>
|
hi rdaiccherlb can you please tell me where i can find community engagment raod map ?
|
|
2015-06-01 22:12:49
|
<matanya>
|
road map
|
|
2015-06-01 22:15:33
|
<rdaiccherlb>
|
For the CE Dept? I don't think there is an official road map...
|
|
2015-06-01 22:16:15
|
<matanya>
|
ah, thanks, that explains why i couldn't find it
|
|
2015-06-01 22:16:34
|
<rdaiccherlb>
|
I have a draft process page for CL, but that isn't the same thing :)
|
|
2015-06-01 22:16:59
|
<matanya>
|
yeah
|
|
2015-06-01 23:56:41
|
<rdaiccherlb>
|
Matanya - while I have IRC on...we're all a bit in the weeds right now but if you can provide some context to which aspect of community engagement you're looking for (it's a large department) I can see where I might be able to direct this
|
|
2015-06-02 03:28:08
|
<Steven_Zhang>
|
Hi.
|
|
2015-06-02 03:28:27
|
<Steven_Zhang>
|
Anyone from the office around?
|
|
2015-06-02 04:13:22
|
<legoktm>
|
Steven_Zhang: the physical office or?
|
|
2015-06-02 04:16:41
|
<harej>
|
Steven_Zhang: for engineering, press 1. for legal, press 2. for community engagement...
|
|
2015-06-02 14:01:48
|
<hashar>
|
#startmeeting CI Weekly meeting triage
|
|
2015-06-02 14:01:52
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting started Tue Jun 2 14:01:48 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is hashar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
|
|
2015-06-02 14:01:52
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
|
|
2015-06-02 14:01:52
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
The meeting name has been set to 'ci_weekly_meeting_triage'
|
|
2015-06-02 14:02:02
|
<hashar>
|
addshore: jzerebecki zeljkof Krinkle yeah I forgot to send the announcement :-(
|
|
2015-06-02 14:02:07
|
<zeljkof>
|
o/
|
|
2015-06-02 14:02:11
|
<addshore>
|
:p
|
|
2015-06-02 14:02:15
|
<jzerebecki>
|
\o
|
|
2015-06-02 14:02:15
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Continuous_integration/Meetings/2015-06-02 Agenda
|
|
2015-06-02 14:02:31
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Continuous_integration/Meetings/2015-05-19/Minutes Past meeting minutes
|
|
2015-06-02 14:02:37
|
<hashar>
|
which I have pasted a minute ago :-(((
|
|
2015-06-02 14:02:48
|
<hashar>
|
#topic Actions restrospective
|
|
2015-06-02 14:02:58
|
<hashar>
|
there was a single action: Antoine to poke ops so that jzerebecki has +2 on zuul machine https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/210692/
|
|
2015-06-02 14:03:04
|
<hashar>
|
which is solved :-}
|
|
2015-06-02 14:03:21
|
<jzerebecki>
|
thx :)
|
|
2015-06-02 14:03:24
|
<hashar>
|
jzerebecki: I guess you get access to gallium to deploy zuul changes now right?
|
|
2015-06-02 14:03:37
|
<hashar>
|
there is a fabric file at the root of integration/config which should do the job
|
|
2015-06-02 14:03:44
|
<hashar>
|
poke anyone if in trouble!
|
|
2015-06-02 14:03:57
|
<jzerebecki>
|
yes, didn't yet do a deploy, but checked that sudo works
|
|
2015-06-02 14:04:01
|
<hashar>
|
great!
|
|
2015-06-02 14:04:32
|
<hashar>
|
forgets about the task
|
|
2015-06-02 14:04:45
|
<hashar>
|
#topic Release engineering attended last meeting
|
|
2015-06-02 14:04:57
|
<hashar>
|
so just before the hackathon we had a team offsite
|
|
2015-06-02 14:05:05
|
<hashar>
|
almost all of #releng was present
|
|
2015-06-02 14:05:12
|
<hashar>
|
and we did the meeting together, I was commenting on the pace
|
|
2015-06-02 14:05:23
|
<hashar>
|
s/pace/what was happening/
|
|
2015-06-02 14:05:24
|
<hashar>
|
in short
|
|
2015-06-02 14:05:36
|
<hashar>
|
our team is going to have more triage meeting. We did one for the beta cluster yesterday
|
|
2015-06-02 14:05:45
|
<hashar>
|
all I had to say :}
|
|
2015-06-02 14:05:54
|
<hashar>
|
zeljkof: do you have a weekly triage planned for browser-tests ?
|
|
2015-06-02 14:06:06
|
<zeljkof>
|
browsertests triage starts after this meeting
|
|
2015-06-02 14:06:12
|
<hashar>
|
awesome
|
|
2015-06-02 14:06:25
|
<zeljkof>
|
just Dan and me for the first time
|
|
2015-06-02 14:06:37
|
<zeljkof>
|
but we will announce it and open it next week
|
|
2015-06-02 14:06:37
|
<hashar>
|
that is a good start
|
|
2015-06-02 14:06:54
|
<hashar>
|
lets move to composer-merge-plugin madness
|
|
2015-06-02 14:07:14
|
<hashar>
|
#topic composer-merge-plugin autoload merging
|
|
2015-06-02 14:07:28
|
<hashar>
|
addshore: jzerebecki that follow up a composer-merge-plugin issue https://github.com/wikimedia/composer-merge-plugin/issues/18
|
|
2015-06-02 14:07:47
|
<jzerebecki>
|
that is now merged and working
|
|
2015-06-02 14:07:50
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://github.com/wikimedia/composer-merge-plugin/issues/18 github issue: Add merge `autoload` and resolve paths
|
|
2015-06-02 14:07:59
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://github.com/wikimedia/composer-merge-plugin/pull/29 github pull request (merged)
|
|
2015-06-02 14:08:24
|
<jzerebecki>
|
i tested it with wikibase and another extension in CI
|
|
2015-06-02 14:08:32
|
<hashar>
|
ohhh
|
|
2015-06-02 14:08:55
|
<hashar>
|
I can't remember what it was blocking
|
|
2015-06-02 14:09:04
|
<hashar>
|
but I guess you guys can make progress again now right?
|
|
2015-06-02 14:09:36
|
<jzerebecki>
|
yup now i need to adapt wikibase to not load the extension when the autoloader is loaded
|
|
2015-06-02 14:10:16
|
<hashar>
|
do you need anything done on CI front?
|
|
2015-06-02 14:10:57
|
<jzerebecki>
|
nope. the next big thing will be to automate the vendor build, so that we can still deploy to beta when running composer in CI on master
|
|
2015-06-02 14:11:56
|
<hashar>
|
maybe we should just run composer on beta ?
|
|
2015-06-02 14:12:17
|
<hashar>
|
we had the discussion during the hackathon for the oid services on beta cluster https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T100099
|
|
2015-06-02 14:12:36
|
<jzerebecki>
|
that would work but means having production deployment different from beta deployment
|
|
2015-06-02 14:12:52
|
<hashar>
|
or maybe that is another task
|
|
2015-06-02 14:13:42
|
<hashar>
|
yeah that is the part that puzzles me
|
|
2015-06-02 14:14:18
|
<hashar>
|
if one update a dependency in the source master branch
|
|
2015-06-02 14:14:28
|
<hashar>
|
we would need another patch to update /vendor/ repo as
|
|
2015-06-02 14:14:29
|
<hashar>
|
well
|
|
2015-06-02 14:14:48
|
<jzerebecki>
|
that ticket implies doing beta and production differently was agreed on, though it doesn't say that explicitly
|
|
2015-06-02 14:15:07
|
<hashar>
|
yup
|
|
2015-06-02 14:15:21
|
<hashar>
|
and subbu from the Parsoid team told me they want to use the deploy git repo on beta
|
|
2015-06-02 14:15:44
|
<hashar>
|
I guess i need to sort out the notes I took during the meetings
|
|
2015-06-02 14:15:46
|
<jzerebecki>
|
yea when you'd build vendor automatically you could wait on the build being pushed to the vendor repo and then continue deploying
|
|
2015-06-02 14:16:11
|
<hashar>
|
and summarizing the discussion we had together on the last day of the hackathon (on the paper board )
|
|
2015-06-02 14:16:31
|
<hashar>
|
lets fill that as an action
|
|
2015-06-02 14:16:56
|
<hashar>
|
#action Antoine to write down the composer / vendor strategy for CI / Beta / production. With jzerebecki as a reviewer.
|
|
2015-06-02 14:17:12
|
<jzerebecki>
|
part of our discussion is relected in my comment there https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T88211#1317971
|
|
2015-06-02 14:17:20
|
<jzerebecki>
|
s/relected/reflected/
|
|
2015-06-02 14:17:49
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T88211#1317971 Jan commenting about circular dependencies between source and deploy.
|
|
2015-06-02 14:17:52
|
<hashar>
|
ah great
|
|
2015-06-02 14:18:05
|
<hashar>
|
there is a lot of different tasks :/
|
|
2015-06-02 14:18:34
|
<hashar>
|
I will bring up the subject during the releng team meeting in a couple hours
|
|
2015-06-02 14:19:25
|
<hashar>
|
nothing else to add
|
|
2015-06-02 14:20:15
|
<hashar>
|
#topic CI infra triage
|
|
2015-06-02 14:20:32
|
<hashar>
|
lets go through the 15 infra bugs untrained
|
|
2015-06-02 14:20:39
|
<hashar>
|
s/untrained/untriagged/
|
|
2015-06-02 14:20:42
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/board/401/
|
|
2015-06-02 14:20:57
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T100903 Run pywikibot test suite regularly on beta cluster as part of MediaWiki/Wikimedia CI
|
|
2015-06-02 14:21:20
|
<hashar>
|
the idea is to have a job running pywikibot test suite against beta
|
|
2015-06-02 14:21:33
|
<hashar>
|
need some work on their side
|
|
2015-06-02 14:23:04
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T100518 Reenable ssh MAC/KEX hardening on beta cluster and integration labs project
|
|
2015-06-02 14:23:13
|
<hashar>
|
that is merely a remember item
|
|
2015-06-02 14:23:15
|
<hashar>
|
moving to backlog
|
|
2015-06-02 14:23:32
|
<hashar>
|
probably need to ask Jenkins to be upgraded upstream
|
|
2015-06-02 14:23:37
|
<Krinkle>
|
o/
|
|
2015-06-02 14:24:39
|
<hashar>
|
Krinkle: hello! Doing the untriaged column of https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/board/401/
|
|
2015-06-02 14:25:03
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T100517 Jenkins jar should ship with a more recent jsch java lib version to support hardened algorithm
|
|
2015-06-02 14:25:09
|
<hashar>
|
flagged it as upstream
|
|
2015-06-02 14:25:17
|
<hashar>
|
and moved it to externally blocked
|
|
2015-06-02 14:25:42
|
<hashar>
|
#action Antoine fill a bug to upstream Jenkins to get jsch bundled lib updated ( https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T100517 )
|
|
2015-06-02 14:25:55
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T99982 Upgrade PHPUnit to 4.0+
|
|
2015-06-02 14:26:09
|
<hashar>
|
jzerebecki: addshore legoktm someone asking to switch to PHPUnit 4.0 :-D
|
|
2015-06-02 14:26:24
|
<jzerebecki>
|
yes!
|
|
2015-06-02 14:26:26
|
<hashar>
|
#info we use a stalled version of PHPUnit: 3.7.x . Provided via a git repo
|
|
2015-06-02 14:26:42
|
<hashar>
|
I have refused to upgrade it because the job ran against REL1_19
|
|
2015-06-02 14:26:48
|
<hashar>
|
which did not support PHPUnit 4.x
|
|
2015-06-02 14:26:52
|
<hashar>
|
maybe we can bump it now
|
|
2015-06-02 14:26:59
|
<hashar>
|
but I would rather migrate everything to composer
|
|
2015-06-02 14:27:07
|
<addshore>
|
|Yes!
|
|
2015-06-02 14:27:28
|
<hashar>
|
I guess we will need the composer-merge-plugin to merge in mediawiki/core and extension composer.json files
|
|
2015-06-02 14:27:42
|
<hashar>
|
and end up with some version of PHPUnit folks want
|
|
2015-06-02 14:28:03
|
<hashar>
|
I have no idea what is the progress toward moving mw/core to composer though
|
|
2015-06-02 14:28:14
|
<hashar>
|
nor can I find a task
|
|
2015-06-02 14:28:15
|
<legoktm>
|
o/
|
|
2015-06-02 14:28:20
|
<hashar>
|
good morning legoktm !
|
|
2015-06-02 14:28:29
|
<hashar>
|
send coffee and donuts over the wire
|
|
2015-06-02 14:28:33
|
<hashar>
|
you are just in time!
|
|
2015-06-02 14:28:52
|
<legoktm>
|
so, for phpunit the plan is to never upgrade it and instead migrate to composer, so we can update it in composer.json instead
|
|
2015-06-02 14:28:59
|
<hashar>
|
+1
|
|
2015-06-02 14:29:01
|
<hashar>
|
do we have any task / person working on switching mediawiki phpunit jobs to use composer?
|
|
2015-06-02 14:29:07
|
<legoktm>
|
me :)
|
|
2015-06-02 14:29:23
|
<legoktm>
|
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T90303?workflow=create is the task
|
|
2015-06-02 14:29:24
|
<jzerebecki>
|
we first need to solve the how deploy to beta task
|
|
2015-06-02 14:29:38
|
<hashar>
|
#agreed Keep the git phpunit repo to 3.7 and never upgrade. Switch to composer instead https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T90303
|
|
2015-06-02 14:30:18
|
<hashar>
|
I commenting on the task requesting to switch to PHPUnit 4.0+ https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T99982
|
|
2015-06-02 14:30:31
|
<legoktm>
|
jzerebecki: is there a bug filed for that? I remember talking about it
|
|
2015-06-02 14:30:57
|
<jzerebecki>
|
i still need to file a bug about automatically building vendor
|
|
2015-06-02 14:31:37
|
<jzerebecki>
|
which is a possible solution for deploying to beta in a CI with composer on master world
|
|
2015-06-02 14:31:40
|
<hashar>
|
what do you think about using the QA mailing list to exchange about it ?
|
|
2015-06-02 14:31:50
|
<hashar>
|
or maybe there is a reference task? (sorry I am confused)
|
|
2015-06-02 14:32:00
|
<hashar>
|
maybe one of the task can be flagged as epic
|
|
2015-06-02 14:32:19
|
<jzerebecki>
|
i need to file a task for it and get the dependencies right
|
|
2015-06-02 14:33:03
|
<hashar>
|
#action jzerebecki to fill a task about automatically building vendor
|
|
2015-06-02 14:33:04
|
<hashar>
|
:-}
|
|
2015-06-02 14:33:16
|
<jzerebecki>
|
:)
|
|
2015-06-02 14:33:59
|
<hashar>
|
I miss bugzilla treeview of blocking bugs
|
|
2015-06-02 14:34:54
|
<hashar>
|
legoktm: jzerebecki should we sync up on the qa list ?
|
|
2015-06-02 14:34:58
|
<hashar>
|
or maybe bring it to wikitech-l
|
|
2015-06-02 14:35:48
|
<hashar>
|
moved https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T88211 "Unable to update libraries in MediaWiki core and vendor due to version mismatch and circular dependencies" to 'next'
|
|
2015-06-02 14:36:14
|
<hashar>
|
anything else to add ?
|
|
2015-06-02 14:37:00
|
<jzerebecki>
|
no
|
|
2015-06-02 14:37:03
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T99552 Let Jenkins-mwext-sync clean up own open unmergable patch sets
|
|
2015-06-02 14:37:12
|
<hashar>
|
lowest prio, moving to backlog
|
|
2015-06-02 14:37:28
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T99413 Fix "PHP Warning: Module 'apc' already loaded" on zend slaves
|
|
2015-06-02 14:37:31
|
<hashar>
|
Krinkle: ^^^ :D
|
|
2015-06-02 14:37:41
|
<hashar>
|
and I thought apc was disabled
|
|
2015-06-02 14:37:51
|
<hashar>
|
because it caused some havoc / madness with the qunit jobs
|
|
2015-06-02 14:37:54
|
<Krinkle>
|
hashar: Can you please look at VE submodule failures? I think git plugin upgrade caused problems.
|
|
2015-06-02 14:38:17
|
<Krinkle>
|
It's hurting a lot and frequently.
|
|
2015-06-02 14:38:19
|
<hashar>
|
Krinkle: after the meeting yeah and fill a task!
|
|
2015-06-02 14:38:46
|
<Krinkle>
|
None of the jobs are updating hte submodule. They checkout the commit but don't sync the submodule. So the commit of the last working job is stuck in the submodule.
|
|
2015-06-02 14:40:24
|
<hashar>
|
apc.so is also enabled in a disable-html_errors.ini PHP conf file.
|
|
2015-06-02 14:40:27
|
<hashar>
|
updated task
|
|
2015-06-02 14:40:45
|
<hashar>
|
moved it to next since it is annoying
|
|
2015-06-02 14:40:49
|
<hashar>
|
should not be too hard to fix up
|
|
2015-06-02 14:41:08
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T98976 Jenkins does not shutdown due to a deadlock in the IRC plugin
|
|
2015-06-02 14:41:20
|
<jzerebecki>
|
hashar: you were faster again
|
|
2015-06-02 14:41:29
|
<hashar>
|
faster?
|
|
2015-06-02 14:41:44
|
<jzerebecki>
|
I nearly said the same thing in the apc bug
|
|
2015-06-02 14:41:53
|
<hashar>
|
#action Antoine to fill a bug upstream for https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T98976
|
|
2015-06-02 14:42:52
|
<hashar>
|
oh
|
|
2015-06-02 14:44:45
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T90177 Create end-to-end automated test for Wikipedia native app(s)
|
|
2015-06-02 14:45:10
|
<hashar>
|
devs want some more framework to test their apps
|
|
2015-06-02 14:45:32
|
<hashar>
|
I am going to move it to #releng team
|
|
2015-06-02 14:45:44
|
<hashar>
|
we will need some work on the infra, but overall seems the bug is much larger
|
|
2015-06-02 14:46:35
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T98885 Unattended upgrade seems to only run daily instead of hourly
|
|
2015-06-02 14:46:44
|
<hashar>
|
on my radar
|
|
2015-06-02 14:47:27
|
<Krinkle>
|
hashar: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T101105
|
|
2015-06-02 14:47:47
|
<hashar>
|
Krinkle: thx. will look at it after this triage
|
|
2015-06-02 14:48:06
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T98294 Bump python-gear package to 0.5.6
|
|
2015-06-02 14:48:09
|
<hashar>
|
that is for zuul
|
|
2015-06-02 14:48:18
|
<hashar>
|
specially the zuul server on gallium
|
|
2015-06-02 14:48:28
|
<hashar>
|
need to repackage / update apt.wm.o
|
|
2015-06-02 14:48:50
|
<hashar>
|
moved to backlog
|
|
2015-06-02 14:49:50
|
<hashar>
|
Krinkle: hey I refreshed the board and your task appear :-]
|
|
2015-06-02 14:50:14
|
<hashar>
|
moved it to work in progress
|
|
2015-06-02 14:50:25
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T96919 Run QUnit tests via SauceLabs
|
|
2015-06-02 14:50:49
|
<hashar>
|
Krinkle: should that qunit/saucelabs move to backlog ?
|
|
2015-06-02 14:51:05
|
<hashar>
|
not sure how SauceLabs will be able to hit the wiki setup on our slaves though :/
|
|
2015-06-02 14:51:05
|
<Krinkle>
|
Yeah
|
|
2015-06-02 14:51:12
|
<Krinkle>
|
hashar: that's trivial.
|
|
2015-06-02 14:51:16
|
<Krinkle>
|
It has built-in tunnel support in Grunt.
|
|
2015-06-02 14:51:23
|
<Krinkle>
|
We're already using that.
|
|
2015-06-02 14:51:26
|
<hashar>
|
\O/
|
|
2015-06-02 14:51:34
|
<hashar>
|
should it be assigned to you ?
|
|
2015-06-02 14:51:38
|
<Krinkle>
|
No.
|
|
2015-06-02 14:51:43
|
<hashar>
|
ok
|
|
2015-06-02 14:51:54
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T96432 Run qunit tests in IE8 (and possibly other Grade A browsers)
|
|
2015-06-02 14:52:00
|
<hashar>
|
which is blocked by sauce lab task
|
|
2015-06-02 14:52:06
|
<Krinkle>
|
I might end up working on it based on needs from individual teams and resources available in RelEng, but I don't plan to.
|
|
2015-06-02 14:52:28
|
<hashar>
|
so should we make it normal priority and stalled ?
|
|
2015-06-02 14:53:00
|
<Krinkle>
|
it's not stalled. It's just not a priority I guess? It's like all other tasks in the backlog
|
|
2015-06-02 14:53:07
|
<hashar>
|
ok
|
|
2015-06-02 14:53:20
|
<hashar>
|
made it normal
|
|
2015-06-02 14:53:35
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T96390 Allow ref-updated listener to filter out tag deletions
|
|
2015-06-02 14:53:42
|
<Krinkle>
|
is curious to hear about progress of vm isolation, and (before isolation) progress on using git caches and smaller instanes.
|
|
2015-06-02 14:54:10
|
<hashar>
|
Krinkle: will post about it this week
|
|
2015-06-02 14:54:25
|
<hashar>
|
will bring it up with the releng team in an hour or so
|
|
2015-06-02 14:54:33
|
<hashar>
|
in short: not much progress :-D
|
|
2015-06-02 14:54:45
|
<Krinkle>
|
What is being worked on instead?
|
|
2015-06-02 14:55:51
|
<hashar>
|
hold on
|
|
2015-06-02 14:55:59
|
<hashar>
|
I would like to finish triaging the two other tasks
|
|
2015-06-02 14:56:06
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T96034 mwext-Wikidata-testextension-zend not queuing properly
|
|
2015-06-02 14:57:44
|
<hashar>
|
The mwext-*-testextension jobs are throttled by a plugin so there is only one instance of them per node. That is to prevent the slaves disk space to be filled with multiple copy of mediawiki/core
|
|
2015-06-02 14:57:44
|
<hashar>
|
There might be a bug in that plugin :(
|
|
2015-06-02 14:58:14
|
<Krinkle>
|
Since when?
|
|
2015-06-02 14:58:21
|
<Krinkle>
|
(throttled textextension)
|
|
2015-06-02 14:58:27
|
<hashar>
|
the throttling ? been around for ages
|
|
2015-06-02 14:58:39
|
<Krinkle>
|
Where is that config?
|
|
2015-06-02 14:58:51
|
<hashar>
|
we added that when addshore created jobs for all extensions
|
|
2015-06-02 14:58:57
|
<hashar>
|
so it is somewhere in the jjb config files
|
|
2015-06-02 14:59:05
|
<addshore>
|
*reads up*
|
|
2015-06-02 14:59:20
|
<Krinkle>
|
- throttle-one-per-node
|
|
2015-06-02 14:59:21
|
<Krinkle>
|
I see it
|
|
2015-06-02 14:59:27
|
<Krinkle>
|
https://github.com/wikimedia/integration-config/blob/831e6302e4f02b3dbf7355aaa2c762756282439f/jjb/mediawiki-extensions.yaml#L176-L183
|
|
2015-06-02 14:59:27
|
<Krinkle>
|
OK
|
|
2015-06-02 14:59:31
|
<hashar>
|
jjb/mediawiki-extensions.yaml:182: - throttle-one-per-node
|
|
2015-06-02 14:59:50
|
<Krinkle>
|
So what does that mean. One instance of extensions Foo per node.
|
|
2015-06-02 15:00:03
|
<hashar>
|
yup
|
|
2015-06-02 15:00:04
|
<Krinkle>
|
Or one instance globally of this template.
|
|
2015-06-02 15:00:08
|
<addshore>
|
on instance of that specific job per node
|
|
2015-06-02 15:00:17
|
<addshore>
|
*one
|
|
2015-06-02 15:00:21
|
<Krinkle>
|
hashar: Is this about runtime or workspace?
|
|
2015-06-02 15:00:26
|
<hashar>
|
so we don't end up with dupe workspaces
|
|
2015-06-02 15:00:33
|
<Krinkle>
|
because if it's about runtime, that says _nothing_ about having multiple copies or not
|
|
2015-06-02 15:00:43
|
<hashar>
|
so if you have 4 builds triggered, they will be run on 4 different nodes
|
|
2015-06-02 15:00:48
|
<hashar>
|
if you have only 3 nodes available
|
|
2015-06-02 15:00:49
|
<hashar>
|
3 run
|
|
2015-06-02 15:00:49
|
<Krinkle>
|
That will still end up running Foo on slave1 and tomororw on slave2
|
|
2015-06-02 15:01:02
|
<hashar>
|
1 is kept in Jenkins build queue waiting for an available executor
|
|
2015-06-02 15:01:20
|
<Krinkle>
|
Right
|
|
2015-06-02 15:01:28
|
<Krinkle>
|
So no multiple copies of one extension on the same slave.
|
|
2015-06-02 15:01:34
|
<Krinkle>
|
no workspace@2 etc.
|
|
2015-06-02 15:01:41
|
<Krinkle>
|
but still all extensions on all slaves.
|
|
2015-06-02 15:01:42
|
<Krinkle>
|
OK. cool
|
|
2015-06-02 15:01:44
|
<hashar>
|
yeah that is to prevent the workspace@2
|
|
2015-06-02 15:01:47
|
<Krinkle>
|
but that's not related to the bug I think.
|
|
2015-06-02 15:01:50
|
<hashar>
|
which fill disk because of mw/core
|
|
2015-06-02 15:02:00
|
<Krinkle>
|
hashar: well, only becuse we don't clear workspaces..
|
|
2015-06-02 15:02:07
|
<Krinkle>
|
:)
|
|
2015-06-02 15:02:09
|
<hashar>
|
yeah
|
|
2015-06-02 15:02:15
|
<hashar>
|
so in the end
|
|
2015-06-02 15:02:22
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
has to go to another meeting
|
|
2015-06-02 15:02:25
|
<hashar>
|
that plugin might explain why the job is not being triggered
|
|
2015-06-02 15:02:34
|
<hashar>
|
zeljkof-meeting: sure! will join late though :-D
|
|
2015-06-02 15:02:39
|
<hashar>
|
zeljkof-meeting: thanks to have attended!
|
|
2015-06-02 15:02:49
|
<Krinkle>
|
I see this bug from time to time, and for sure there were other slaves available that were not executing this job.
|
|
2015-06-02 15:03:00
|
<hashar>
|
maybe the throttler does not work properly
|
|
2015-06-02 15:03:01
|
<Krinkle>
|
It's probably just another bug in Jenkins/Zuul scheduling illogical thing.
|
|
2015-06-02 15:03:06
|
<hashar>
|
or the configuration we crafted is wrong
|
|
2015-06-02 15:03:12
|
<hashar>
|
or a bug yeah
|
|
2015-06-02 15:03:19
|
<hashar>
|
eventually, we will get rid of that plugin
|
|
2015-06-02 15:03:28
|
<hashar>
|
and the last bug is
|
|
2015-06-02 15:03:33
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T94212 Accommodate flaky tests flapping
|
|
2015-06-02 15:03:53
|
<hashar>
|
which I am sending straight to backlog
|
|
2015-06-02 15:03:56
|
<hashar>
|
and lowering priority for
|
|
2015-06-02 15:04:26
|
<hashar>
|
#info triaged the whole "Untriaged" column of CI infra!
|
|
2015-06-02 15:04:36
|
<hashar>
|
jzerebecki: addshore: Krinkle: anything else to add ?
|
|
2015-06-02 15:04:39
|
<hashar>
|
#topic the end
|
|
2015-06-02 15:04:47
|
<jzerebecki>
|
no thx
|
|
2015-06-02 15:05:37
|
<hashar>
|
gotta investigate that submodule trouble for VE
|
|
2015-06-02 15:05:40
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
hashar: did you end the meeting? can we start ours here?
|
|
2015-06-02 15:05:45
|
<hashar>
|
#endmeeting
|
|
2015-06-02 15:05:45
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting ended Tue Jun 2 15:05:45 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
|
|
2015-06-02 15:05:45
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-02-14.01.html
|
|
2015-06-02 15:05:45
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (text): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-02-14.01.txt
|
|
2015-06-02 15:05:45
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (wiki): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-02-14.01.wiki
|
|
2015-06-02 15:05:46
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Log: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-02-14.01.log.html
|
|
2015-06-02 15:05:48
|
<hashar>
|
zeljkof-meeting: yeah go ahead
|
|
2015-06-02 15:08:58
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
hashar: thanks!
|
|
2015-06-02 15:09:00
|
<marxarelli>
|
#startmeeting Browser test meeting triage
|
|
2015-06-02 15:09:01
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting started Tue Jun 2 15:09:00 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is marxarelli. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
|
|
2015-06-02 15:09:01
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
|
|
2015-06-02 15:09:01
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
The meeting name has been set to 'browser_test_meeting_triage'
|
|
2015-06-02 15:09:41
|
<marxarelli>
|
#topic Sorting triage column of https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/view/1078/
|
|
2015-06-02 15:09:52
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
o/
|
|
2015-06-02 15:11:29
|
<marxarelli>
|
#topic Assessing Doing column
|
|
2015-06-02 15:11:57
|
<marxarelli>
|
tasks outside of a week timebox will be moved back to TODO
|
|
2015-06-02 15:14:14
|
<marxarelli>
|
#info moved T96283 back to TODO
|
|
2015-06-02 15:15:58
|
<marxarelli>
|
#info T99653 and T99652 should stay
|
|
2015-06-02 15:16:09
|
<marxarelli>
|
#topic moving on to Waiting for
|
|
2015-06-02 15:21:18
|
<marxarelli>
|
#info moved T89353 to TODO
|
|
2015-06-02 15:28:06
|
<marxarelli>
|
#info moved T94162 to TODO (will try to schedule pairing session with ryasmeen)
|
|
2015-06-02 15:33:26
|
<marxarelli>
|
#info moved epic T94150 to release engineering board to task long term progress
|
|
2015-06-02 15:37:31
|
<marxarelli>
|
#info pinging T92154, leaving in Waiting for
|
|
2015-06-02 15:41:28
|
<hashar>
|
sorry can not attend after all. Gotta fix some magic jjb/git issue :(
|
|
2015-06-02 16:00:24
|
<marxarelli>
|
#endmeeting
|
|
2015-06-02 16:00:25
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting ended Tue Jun 2 16:00:24 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
|
|
2015-06-02 16:00:25
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-02-15.09.html
|
|
2015-06-02 16:00:25
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (text): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-02-15.09.txt
|
|
2015-06-02 16:00:25
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (wiki): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-02-15.09.wiki
|
|
2015-06-02 16:00:25
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Log: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-02-15.09.log.html
|
|
2015-06-03 16:15:02
|
<pizzzacat>
|
is this the right channel for the Transparency and Communications meeting?
|
|
2015-06-03 16:15:15
|
<Krenair>
|
no
|
|
2015-06-03 16:15:17
|
<andrewbogott>
|
pizzzacat: no, wikimedia-staff.
|
|
2015-06-03 16:15:19
|
<josephine>
|
pizzzacat: staff
|
|
2015-06-03 16:15:20
|
<pizzzacat>
|
ok thanks :)
|
|
2015-06-03 16:15:41
|
<andrewbogott>
|
pizzzacat: this room is generally used for public and community-facing meetings.
|
|
2015-06-03 16:19:03
|
<pizzzacat>
|
gotcha, thanks andrewbogott
|
|
2015-06-03 16:19:27
|
<JohanJ>
|
While we're at the subject, I just realised I'm not in the staff channel. Could someone invite me?
|
|
2015-06-03 16:20:07
|
<JRenteria>
|
#wikimedia-staff
|
|
2015-06-03 16:22:42
|
<jaufrecht>
|
me too, please: "Cannot join channel (+r) - you need to be identified with services"
|
|
2015-06-03 16:23:25
|
<Krenair>
|
JohanJ, https://office.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC#How_to_join_private_channels
|
|
2015-06-03 16:27:01
|
<JohanJ>
|
Krenair: ah. Thank you, and sorry.
|
|
2015-06-03 16:27:18
|
<Krenair>
|
no problem
|
|
2015-06-05 18:20:44
|
<kaldari>
|
Jamesofur|cloud: You around?
|
|
2015-06-05 18:35:28
|
<marktraceur>
|
directs kaldari to -staff
|
|
2015-06-05 18:35:40
|
<kaldari>
|
oops
|
|
2015-06-08 17:53:09
|
<thcipriani>
|
#startmeeting Deployment Systems Weekly Triage
|
|
2015-06-08 17:53:10
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting started Mon Jun 8 17:53:10 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is thcipriani. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
|
|
2015-06-08 17:53:10
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
|
|
2015-06-08 17:53:10
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
The meeting name has been set to 'deployment_systems_weekly_triage'
|
|
2015-06-08 17:53:28
|
<thcipriani>
|
#link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Deployment_tooling/Meetings/2015-06-01/Minutes Last triage
|
|
2015-06-08 17:53:46
|
<thcipriani>
|
#link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Deployment_tooling/Meetings/2015-06-08 Agenda
|
|
2015-06-08 17:54:02
|
<thcipriani>
|
#info discussion takes place mainly on google hangout
|
|
2015-06-08 17:54:15
|
<thcipriani>
|
#topic In-Progress Update
|
|
2015-06-08 17:55:35
|
<thcipriani>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T97068 may be done
|
|
2015-06-08 17:57:50
|
<thcipriani>
|
#topic To-Triage Column
|
|
2015-06-08 17:58:20
|
<thcipriani>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T101329
|
|
2015-06-08 17:59:21
|
<thcipriani>
|
#action tyler to backlog, lowest priority
|
|
2015-06-08 17:59:58
|
<thcipriani>
|
#topic next columns
|
|
2015-06-08 18:02:03
|
<thcipriani>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T72311 may be able to close
|
|
2015-06-08 18:05:37
|
<ostriches>
|
thcipriani: I lowered priority and left a comment
|
|
2015-06-08 18:05:49
|
<thcipriani>
|
ostriches: cool thanks!
|
|
2015-06-08 18:06:12
|
<thcipriani>
|
#link They weren't consistent indeed, and i ran
|
|
2015-06-08 18:06:16
|
<thcipriani>
|
whoops
|
|
2015-06-08 18:06:26
|
<thcipriani>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T86272
|
|
2015-06-08 18:08:46
|
<thcipriani>
|
#action closing T86272 no issues recently
|
|
2015-06-08 18:18:10
|
<thcipriani>
|
#endmeeting
|
|
2015-06-08 18:18:11
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting ended Mon Jun 8 18:18:10 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
|
|
2015-06-08 18:18:11
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-08-17.53.html
|
|
2015-06-08 18:18:11
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (text): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-08-17.53.txt
|
|
2015-06-08 18:18:11
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (wiki): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-08-17.53.wiki
|
|
2015-06-08 18:18:11
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Log: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-08-17.53.log.html
|
|
2015-06-09 14:00:53
|
<hashar>
|
hello
|
|
2015-06-09 14:01:03
|
<hashar>
|
zeljkof Krinkle|detached legoktm jzerebecki addshore
|
|
2015-06-09 14:01:08
|
<hashar>
|
#startmeeting CI weekly triage
|
|
2015-06-09 14:01:09
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting started Tue Jun 9 14:01:08 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is hashar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
|
|
2015-06-09 14:01:09
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
|
|
2015-06-09 14:01:09
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
The meeting name has been set to 'ci_weekly_triage'
|
|
2015-06-09 14:01:11
|
<zeljkof>
|
hashar: bonjour
|
|
2015-06-09 14:01:13
|
<jzerebecki>
|
o/
|
|
2015-06-09 14:01:20
|
<zeljkof>
|
o/
|
|
2015-06-09 14:01:46
|
<hashar>
|
so zeljkof proposed to have the meeting over hangout :-}
|
|
2015-06-09 14:01:53
|
<hashar>
|
to make it slightly more interactive hehe
|
|
2015-06-09 14:01:54
|
<zeljkof>
|
already there :)
|
|
2015-06-09 14:01:55
|
<hashar>
|
link https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/wikimedia.org/ci-weekly
|
|
2015-06-09 14:02:02
|
<zeljkof>
|
alone :'(
|
|
2015-06-09 14:02:16
|
<hashar>
|
I have announced it in yesterday email
|
|
2015-06-09 14:02:26
|
<hashar>
|
though I have no idea whether jzerebecki can join :(
|
|
2015-06-09 14:02:26
|
<zeljkof>
|
ok, not alone any more
|
|
2015-06-09 14:02:42
|
<hashar>
|
apparently should be fine
|
|
2015-06-09 14:03:29
|
<hashar>
|
or we can stick to irc :-}
|
|
2015-06-09 14:04:40
|
<zeljkof>
|
so jzerebecki, hashar and I are in the hangout so far
|
|
2015-06-09 14:05:31
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Continuous_integration/Meetings/2015-06-09 Agenda
|
|
2015-06-09 14:05:41
|
<hashar>
|
#topic Actions restrospective
|
|
2015-06-09 14:05:47
|
<hashar>
|
#info Antoine to write down the composer / vendor strategy for CI / Beta / production. With jzerebecki as a reviewer.
|
|
2015-06-09 14:07:56
|
<jzerebecki>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T101123
|
|
2015-06-09 14:08:18
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T90303 Fetch dependencies using composer instead of cloning mediawiki/vendor for non-wmf branches
|
|
2015-06-09 14:09:12
|
<hashar>
|
#agreed hashar to actually write the summary for the dependencies testing/deployment strategy
|
|
2015-06-09 14:12:57
|
<hashar>
|
#info Idea would be to clone core+ext, run composer merge plugin and composer directly on beta.
|
|
2015-06-09 14:17:00
|
<hashar>
|
#agreed hashar to fill the couple Jenkins upstream bugs
|
|
2015-06-09 14:17:19
|
<hashar>
|
#info jzerebecki to fill a task about automatically building vendor {{done}}
|
|
2015-06-09 14:17:37
|
<hashar>
|
#topic random topics
|
|
2015-06-09 14:18:07
|
<hashar>
|
WikidataQuality
|
|
2015-06-09 14:18:49
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T97529 Setup CI for WikidataQuality
|
|
2015-06-09 14:20:05
|
<hashar>
|
example failure is https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/216965/
|
|
2015-06-09 14:21:35
|
<hashar>
|
(random discussion about Wikidata / Wikibase and CI)
|
|
2015-06-09 14:22:32
|
<hashar>
|
#topic Triage of Infrastructure
|
|
2015-06-09 14:22:34
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/board/401/
|
|
2015-06-09 14:23:58
|
<hashar>
|
looking at in progress
|
|
2015-06-09 14:24:04
|
<hashar>
|
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/continuous-integration-infrastructure/board/?order=priority
|
|
2015-06-09 14:26:05
|
<hashar>
|
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/continuous-integration-isolation/
|
|
2015-06-09 14:26:08
|
<hashar>
|
the messy board
|
|
2015-06-09 14:26:57
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T86171 "Design the Jenkins isolation architecture" blocked on network design and us having a bootable image
|
|
2015-06-09 14:29:55
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T94836 Create CI slaves using Debian Jessie (tracking)
|
|
2015-06-09 14:31:07
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T69216 Have unit tests of all wmf deployed extensions pass when installed together, in both PHP-Zend and HHVM (tracking)
|
|
2015-06-09 14:31:12
|
<hashar>
|
need to be resurrected eventually
|
|
2015-06-09 14:31:26
|
<hashar>
|
that is the mediawiki-testextensions-hhvm job
|
|
2015-06-09 14:31:33
|
<hashar>
|
need more extensions to be added to it
|
|
2015-06-09 14:32:48
|
<hashar>
|
example https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T69302 MultimediaViewer thumbnailBeforeProduceHTML hook breaks other extensions parser tests
|
|
2015-06-09 14:33:11
|
<hashar>
|
if two extensions have parser tests and registered the thumbnailBeforeProduceHTML they conflict with each other :-(((((
|
|
2015-06-09 14:33:56
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T75521 Jenkins: Implement hhvm based voting jobs for mediawiki and extensions (tracking)
|
|
2015-06-09 14:35:36
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T101392 Trigger PHPUnit job for MediaWiki extensions with HHVM instead of Zend in 'test' pipeline
|
|
2015-06-09 14:35:40
|
<hashar>
|
marking as dupe!!
|
|
2015-06-09 14:36:13
|
<hashar>
|
#info made T101392 a blocker of T75521
|
|
2015-06-09 14:38:26
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T86103 CI for Civi: provision and run tests under Jenkins/Zuul
|
|
2015-06-09 14:38:37
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T85947 Convert operations/mediawiki-config to use composer for phpunit and php linting
|
|
2015-06-09 14:43:16
|
<hashar>
|
#agreed it is quicker over hangout
|
|
2015-06-09 14:44:10
|
<hashar>
|
#endmeeting
|
|
2015-06-09 14:44:10
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting ended Tue Jun 9 14:44:10 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
|
|
2015-06-09 14:44:10
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-09-14.01.html
|
|
2015-06-09 14:44:10
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (text): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-09-14.01.txt
|
|
2015-06-09 14:44:10
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (wiki): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-09-14.01.wiki
|
|
2015-06-09 14:44:11
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Log: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-09-14.01.log.html
|
|
2015-06-09 14:44:21
|
<hashar>
|
lets paste the minutes right now :-}
|
|
2015-06-09 14:49:55
|
<hashar>
|
jzerebecki: zeljkof-meetingz I will move the next CI meeting half an hour earlier
|
|
2015-06-09 14:50:30
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
hashar: go ahead
|
|
2015-06-09 14:50:43
|
<jzerebecki>
|
hashar: i have a meeting there
|
|
2015-06-09 14:50:53
|
<hashar>
|
ohh
|
|
2015-06-09 14:51:14
|
<hashar>
|
will move the other meeting so :-)
|
|
2015-06-09 15:07:46
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
#startmeeting Browser-Tests triage meeting
|
|
2015-06-09 15:07:46
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting started Tue Jun 9 15:07:46 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is zeljkof-meetingz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
|
|
2015-06-09 15:07:46
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
|
|
2015-06-09 15:07:46
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
The meeting name has been set to 'browser_tests_triage_meeting'
|
|
2015-06-09 15:08:39
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
#link the board that we are triaging https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/browser-tests/
|
|
2015-06-09 15:09:32
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
#topic triaging "done" column
|
|
2015-06-09 15:10:55
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/214415/ CentralAuth has been upgraded to mediawiki_selenium 1.2 (from 1.0.x)
|
|
2015-06-09 15:11:04
|
<hashar>
|
marxarelli: ^^^
|
|
2015-06-09 15:11:16
|
<marxarelli>
|
\o/
|
|
2015-06-09 15:11:23
|
<marxarelli>
|
http://raita.wmflabs.org/#projects/https%3A%2F%2Fgerrit.wikimedia.org%2Fr%2Fmediawiki%2Fextensions%2FCentralAuth/builds/latest
|
|
2015-06-09 15:11:33
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
I think T99652 is done
|
|
2015-06-09 15:12:17
|
<hashar>
|
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/211963/ still open
|
|
2015-06-09 15:13:19
|
<hashar>
|
rebased it
|
|
2015-06-09 15:13:25
|
<hashar>
|
might want to re test it
|
|
2015-06-09 15:13:59
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
#action marxarelli will +2 the related commit and resolve the bug
|
|
2015-06-09 15:14:11
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
#topic triaging "doing" column
|
|
2015-06-09 15:14:16
|
<hashar>
|
:-)
|
|
2015-06-09 15:15:19
|
<marxarelli>
|
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T73531 is waiting for review
|
|
2015-06-09 15:15:32
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
#action zeljkof-meetingz to review commit related to T73531
|
|
2015-06-09 15:16:58
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
#action marxarelli to work on T99653
|
|
2015-06-09 15:20:08
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
removing T94150 from browser-tests board, leaving it in releng board (at in-progress column there)
|
|
2015-06-09 15:21:16
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
done with the "doing" column
|
|
2015-06-09 15:21:31
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
#topic triaging waiting-for column
|
|
2015-06-09 15:22:23
|
<marxarelli>
|
tabled https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T99658 yesterday to work out blocker https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T73531
|
|
2015-06-09 15:22:31
|
<marxarelli>
|
i'll move it back to doing
|
|
2015-06-09 15:25:04
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
ok, moved to a different topic
|
|
2015-06-09 15:25:31
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
#topic discussion about the names and the setup of the columns on the board
|
|
2015-06-09 15:27:21
|
<hasharMeeting>
|
#agreed to rename 'Triage' to 'Triaged'
|
|
2015-06-09 15:27:29
|
<hashar>
|
:-D
|
|
2015-06-09 15:28:15
|
<hashar>
|
#agreed to rename 'Here be dragons' to 'To triage'
|
|
2015-06-09 15:31:36
|
<hashar>
|
#agreed to keep 'TODO' column for now. Will figure out later on whether it makes sense to keep both Triaged and TODO later on
|
|
2015-06-09 15:32:51
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
#agreed the existing columns make sense for now
|
|
2015-06-09 15:33:40
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
#topic triage tasks that do not have priority set
|
|
2015-06-09 15:34:01
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
the only one is T101563
|
|
2015-06-09 15:41:47
|
<hashar>
|
JJB support is http://docs.openstack.org/infra/jenkins-job-builder/publishers.html?highlight=condition#publishers.conditional-publisher
|
|
2015-06-09 15:41:56
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://wiki.jenkins-ci.org/display/JENKINS/Run+Condition+Plugin
|
|
2015-06-09 15:42:03
|
<hashar>
|
#link http://docs.openstack.org/infra/jenkins-job-builder/publishers.html?highlight=condition#publishers.conditional-publisher JJB support
|
|
2015-06-09 15:44:04
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
#agreed T101563 is set to normal priority and moved to TODO column
|
|
2015-06-09 15:45:13
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
#topic triaging to-triage column
|
|
2015-06-09 15:46:52
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
#agreed lower T99660 from high no low, move from to-triage to todo column
|
|
2015-06-09 15:47:49
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
because jenkins jobs is running and green https://integration.wikimedia.org/ci/view/BrowserTests/view/-All/job/browsertests-WikiLove-en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org-linux-firefox-sauce/
|
|
2015-06-09 15:48:07
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
next T94577
|
|
2015-06-09 15:51:45
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
#agreed change T94577 from high priority to low, move it from to-triage to todo column
|
|
2015-06-09 15:52:48
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
next and the final one for today is T89375
|
|
2015-06-09 15:53:54
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
#agreed remove from browser-tests board, leave it on releng board
|
|
2015-06-09 15:54:36
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
also removing from ci board
|
|
2015-06-09 15:55:46
|
<zeljkof-meetingz>
|
#endmeeting
|
|
2015-06-09 15:55:46
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting ended Tue Jun 9 15:55:46 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
|
|
2015-06-09 15:55:46
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-09-15.07.html
|
|
2015-06-09 15:55:46
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (text): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-09-15.07.txt
|
|
2015-06-09 15:55:46
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (wiki): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-09-15.07.wiki
|
|
2015-06-09 15:55:46
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Log: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-09-15.07.log.html
|
|
2015-06-09 15:55:55
|
<hashar>
|
good job!
|
|
2015-06-09 19:56:05
|
<Josve05a>
|
Does anyone know of a WMF'er named Katy Love (KLove) and if she ever comes online?
|
|
2015-06-09 19:57:39
|
<andrewbogott>
|
Josve05a: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Staff_and_contractors#/media/File:Love,_Katy_April_2015.jpg
|
|
2015-06-09 19:57:44
|
<andrewbogott>
|
I haven’t seen her on IRC much
|
|
2015-06-09 20:00:17
|
<Josve05a>
|
I met with her on an WMSE event and wanted to connect. Well, have to do it the old fashioned way, on-wiki or by mail then. Thanks
|
|
2015-06-09 20:08:07
|
<harej>
|
Josve05a: klove@wikimedia.org
|
|
2015-06-09 20:08:55
|
<Josve05a>
|
harej: Yeah, she gave me her email earlier today. I just found it easier to check if she was on IRC, which was not the case :/ But thanks :)
|
|
2015-06-09 20:09:19
|
<harej>
|
I rarely see non-engineering WMF staff on IRC
|
|
2015-06-10 01:38:57
|
<Steven_Zhang>
|
Hi
|
|
2015-06-10 01:39:04
|
<Steven_Zhang>
|
does anyone here have access to WMF wiki?
|
|
2015-06-10 02:21:14
|
<Negative24>
|
Steven_Zhang: which one. There are thousands :)
|
|
2015-06-10 02:21:25
|
<Steven_Zhang>
|
lol
|
|
2015-06-10 02:21:26
|
<Steven_Zhang>
|
:P
|
|
2015-06-10 02:21:29
|
<Steven_Zhang>
|
all sorted
|
|
2015-06-10 14:28:15
|
<arrbee>
|
Language Engineering office hour starts here in 2 mins
|
|
2015-06-10 14:29:59
|
<Romaine>
|
woei!
|
|
2015-06-10 14:30:51
|
<arrbee>
|
== Language Engineering Office Hour - June 2015 ==
|
|
2015-06-10 14:31:39
|
<arrbee>
|
We are starting the on air session in a minute. Please follow here: https://plus.google.com/u/0/events/cuunke6rbmqpetvslv6jlakbhnc
|
|
2015-06-10 14:36:02
|
<wittylama>
|
Is this the correct link for the language engineering office hours on Google Hangout right now? https://plus.google.com/u/0/events/cuunke6rbmqpetvslv6jlakbhnc
|
|
2015-06-10 14:36:12
|
<Nikerabbit>
|
yes
|
|
2015-06-10 14:37:08
|
<aharoni_>
|
<span lang="zu">Sawubona</span>
|
|
2015-06-10 14:37:11
|
<Niharika>
|
Hello everyone!
|
|
2015-06-10 14:37:42
|
<arrbee>
|
wittylama: you can also join the hangout if you like
|
|
2015-06-10 14:38:22
|
<wittylama>
|
That URL is a broadcast URL, not a 'participation' option. just a Youtube feed.
|
|
2015-06-10 14:40:17
|
<arrbee>
|
wittylama: participation url in PM
|
|
2015-06-10 14:41:01
|
<KuboF>
|
arrbee: I please for participation URL too
|
|
2015-06-10 14:46:31
|
<arrbee>
|
hey Niharika!
|
|
2015-06-10 14:46:47
|
<Niharika>
|
Hi arrbee . :)
|
|
2015-06-10 14:55:13
|
<Romaine>
|
question: what can I/we do to stimulate a certain language pair to become available?
|
|
2015-06-10 15:00:55
|
<pginer>
|
Language pairs supported by Apertium: http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/List_of_language_pairs
|
|
2015-06-10 15:02:34
|
<Nikerabbit>
|
phabricator ticket for article suggestions: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T96147
|
|
2015-06-10 15:04:08
|
<aharoni_>
|
Romaine: to make a language pair available in ContentTranslation, just wait till the end of the month ;)
|
|
2015-06-10 15:04:16
|
<Romaine>
|
ok
|
|
2015-06-10 15:04:36
|
<Nikerabbit>
|
The stats page Santhosh is showing is https://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:ContentTranslationStats
|
|
2015-06-10 15:04:47
|
<aharoni_>
|
Romaine: to make a language pair available in Apertium, you need to talk to the Apertium developers in the #apertium channel,
|
|
2015-06-10 15:05:09
|
<aharoni_>
|
but generally, somebody needs to create a text file with a dictionary and a file with the description of translating grammatical rules,
|
|
2015-06-10 15:05:20
|
<aharoni_>
|
apertium developers can give you more details about how to do it.
|
|
2015-06-10 15:06:30
|
<aharoni_>
|
Romaine: It may sounds circular, but if a lot of articles will be translated manually between two languages, it will help developers of Apertium and other machine translation engines to create machine translation for these languages.
|
|
2015-06-10 15:09:54
|
<Romaine>
|
aharoni_: thank you for the answers
|
|
2015-06-10 15:10:30
|
<Romaine>
|
talking to Aprtium developers is a bit feeling myself falling in a depth I have too little background in
|
|
2015-06-10 15:24:14
|
<Nikerabbit>
|
Our first version of the api to get list of published translations: https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Especial:ApiSandbox#action=query&list=cxpublishedtranslations&format=json&from=en&to=es
|
|
2015-06-10 15:32:09
|
<arrbee>
|
Thanks everyone. Our office hour ends now.
|
|
2015-06-10 15:32:24
|
<arrbee>
|
== Language Engineering Office Hour Ends ==
|
|
2015-06-10 15:33:04
|
<arrbee>
|
session video available here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbXyHmpZJGE
|
|
2015-06-10 15:55:12
|
<Romaine>
|
aharoni: it will be a bit difficult to get so many translations with the tool, as not that much people understand German well enough
|
|
2015-06-10 21:00:45
|
<TimStarling>
|
ori has said that he won't be here until half past the hour
|
|
2015-06-10 21:02:28
|
<TimStarling>
|
we'll start anyway
|
|
2015-06-10 21:02:42
|
<bd808>
|
works for me
|
|
2015-06-10 21:02:46
|
<TimStarling>
|
#startmeeting RFC meeting
|
|
2015-06-10 21:02:47
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting started Wed Jun 10 21:02:47 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is TimStarling. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
|
|
2015-06-10 21:02:47
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
|
|
2015-06-10 21:02:47
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
The meeting name has been set to 'rfc_meeting'
|
|
2015-06-10 21:02:55
|
<TimStarling>
|
#topic RFC meeting | Wikimedia meetings channel | Please note: Channel is logged and publicly posted (DO NOT REMOVE THIS NOTE) | Logs: http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23wikimedia-office/
|
|
2015-06-10 21:03:01
|
<legoktm>
|
o/
|
|
2015-06-10 21:03:49
|
<TimStarling>
|
since ori isn't here yet, I thought we might first have a quick discussion about how the RFC process is going and if any changes need to be made
|
|
2015-06-10 21:04:06
|
<TimStarling>
|
since we have just been talking about that in the previous committee meeting
|
|
2015-06-10 21:04:44
|
<bd808>
|
I have enjoyed that RfCs are being discussed rather promptly after publishing
|
|
2015-06-10 21:05:11
|
<TimStarling>
|
yeah, we've cleared the backlog now, and we have a pretty slow flow of new RFCs being written
|
|
2015-06-10 21:05:38
|
<TimStarling>
|
we were wondering why there are not more of them, in fact
|
|
2015-06-10 21:05:53
|
<gwicke>
|
we have been discussing forming working groups around important topics, to make sure that they are tackled
|
|
2015-06-10 21:06:34
|
<gwicke>
|
somewhat similar to a similar idea in the Rust community: https://github.com/aturon/rfcs/blob/rust-governance/text/0000-rust-governance.md
|
|
2015-06-10 21:06:43
|
<jzerebecki>
|
if they are not being tackled is that not because of a lack of resources?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:06:58
|
<bd808>
|
From my new seat in the Reading group I think I've found that many teams don't think about things as needing RfCs
|
|
2015-06-10 21:07:17
|
<bd808>
|
and yes there is the "when would I work on this" angle for other things
|
|
2015-06-10 21:07:19
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
jzerebecki: sometimes. more often, they arn't even discussed and decided.
|
|
2015-06-10 21:07:28
|
<gwicke>
|
jzerebecki: I think it's also that issues that span several teams are harder to handle as an RFC
|
|
2015-06-10 21:07:44
|
<legoktm>
|
the move to phabricator has made it harder to follow the development and progression of RfCs, with many still active on mw.o, and phab notifications being generally useless.
|
|
2015-06-10 21:07:54
|
<legoktm>
|
the process itself is going well I think
|
|
2015-06-10 21:08:23
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
legoktm: i actually find it easier to follow now, and easier to maintain
|
|
2015-06-10 21:08:25
|
<csteipp>
|
I agree, I think they're less discoverable in Phabricator
|
|
2015-06-10 21:08:31
|
<spagewmf>
|
legoktm: all active mw.o RFCs should have a phab task and their status automatically becomes "See phabricator"
|
|
2015-06-10 21:08:37
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
but phab notifications could be improved. not that mw watchlists were too great either...
|
|
2015-06-10 21:08:55
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
csteipp: how could that be changed?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:09:07
|
<bd808>
|
we have a better chance (and motivation) to improve watchlists than to improve phab
|
|
2015-06-10 21:09:07
|
<gwicke>
|
gmail's poor filter support on headers doesn't help with phab notifications
|
|
2015-06-10 21:09:39
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
bd808: i'm actually not sure that is true...
|
|
2015-06-10 21:09:52
|
<gwicke>
|
but, writing an RFC on a large and only partially understood issue is hard
|
|
2015-06-10 21:09:57
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
gwicke: another use case for a pubsub service :)
|
|
2015-06-10 21:09:59
|
<gwicke>
|
*issue
|
|
2015-06-10 21:10:32
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
bd808: do you think we should go back to a wiki based process? or have an overview page on the wiki, maintained by a bot?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:10:58
|
<gwicke>
|
for complex issues it can be easier to gather interested folks and start to figure it out
|
|
2015-06-10 21:11:27
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
gwicke: in an RFC (Request For Discussion)?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:11:27
|
<csteipp>
|
DanielK_WMDE: I'm not entirely sure, other than changes to Phab, which are being worked on (search being a major issue). Actually, I think the last time I looked the workboard wasn't up for the Phab project-- so it actually looks better now.
|
|
2015-06-10 21:11:34
|
<bd808>
|
I actually don't mind Phab for tracking the status but I find it less useful for discussion. Lack of threading comes to mind as a drawback
|
|
2015-06-10 21:11:36
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
gwicke: err, RFD, of course :)
|
|
2015-06-10 21:11:36
|
<legoktm>
|
DanielK_WMDE: it's generally a workflow thing for me. I could see & review every change to all open RfCs in my inbox with an RSS feed, but now I get a bunch of useless emails that require me to use a web browser to look at a bunch of diffs individually to figure out what's going on
|
|
2015-06-10 21:11:37
|
<gwicke>
|
DanielK_WMDE: ;)
|
|
2015-06-10 21:12:31
|
<TimStarling>
|
in the old process, a lot of the RFCs had LQT talk pages
|
|
2015-06-10 21:12:34
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
bd808: i actually find it much more useful for discussion than plain mw talk pages. with flow, well, maybe.
|
|
2015-06-10 21:12:46
|
<bd808>
|
The history of an RfC that is being managed mostly/solely as a phab task description is hard to follow
|
|
2015-06-10 21:13:02
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
legoktm: can you show me how to do that? i mean for RFCs specifically, not everything on my watchlist
|
|
2015-06-10 21:13:11
|
<csteipp>
|
DanielK_WMDE: One minor thing-- could someone describe the expected process on https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/profile/52/?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:13:19
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
oh, related changes...
|
|
2015-06-10 21:14:01
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
csteipp: you mean this? https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Process
|
|
2015-06-10 21:14:13
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
there should at least be a prominent link, yea...
|
|
2015-06-10 21:14:48
|
<legoktm>
|
DanielK_WMDE: https://www.mediawiki.org/w/api.php?hidebots=1&days=14&limit=50&target=Category%3AOpen_requests_for_comment&translations=filter&action=feedrecentchanges&feedformat=atom
|
|
2015-06-10 21:14:55
|
<gwicke>
|
DanielK_WMDE: are you changing it?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:15:01
|
<chasemp>
|
tickets definitely aren't a wonderful multithread debate medium, there is a more question/answer oriented app in beta but even that is more stackoverflow-esque
|
|
2015-06-10 21:15:23
|
<TimStarling>
|
in terms of administration, I would say phabricator makes things easier
|
|
2015-06-10 21:15:48
|
<gwicke>
|
DanielK_WMDE: I added a link
|
|
2015-06-10 21:15:50
|
<TimStarling>
|
it's easier to drag things from column to column in phab than to change the index heading in the old system
|
|
2015-06-10 21:16:08
|
<csteipp>
|
gwicke: Thanks :)
|
|
2015-06-10 21:16:16
|
<bd808>
|
TimStarling: if that part is working well for the committee then +1
|
|
2015-06-10 21:16:22
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
gwicke: so did I, and phab doesn't handle edit conflicts :P
|
|
2015-06-10 21:16:22
|
<TimStarling>
|
and I can write a comment on an RFC ticket and reasonably expect the author to see it
|
|
2015-06-10 21:16:39
|
<bd808>
|
(which as you know means nothing :)
|
|
2015-06-10 21:16:51
|
<gwicke>
|
I also think that on balance Phabricator is a win
|
|
2015-06-10 21:17:18
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
legoktm: thanks :)
|
|
2015-06-10 21:18:07
|
<TimStarling>
|
phab at least does have a notification system
|
|
2015-06-10 21:18:20
|
<legoktm>
|
TimStarling: I feel the opposite, I end up missing comments because they get lost in all the bug mail, while it was really easy to filter out RfC related stuff in the past based on on-wiki categories
|
|
2015-06-10 21:18:21
|
<gwicke>
|
DanielK_WMDE: ouch
|
|
2015-06-10 21:18:25
|
<chasemp>
|
if we can get teh realtime stuff going it will be much more useful as well (notifications)
|
|
2015-06-10 21:18:40
|
<chasemp>
|
i.e. someone commented on this while you were typing, etc
|
|
2015-06-10 21:18:48
|
<gwicke>
|
realtime phab, or realtime MW?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:19:13
|
<chasemp>
|
phab, my apologies that was primarily an addendum to TimStarling's comment
|
|
2015-06-10 21:19:35
|
<TimStarling>
|
legoktm: you would want the equivalent of related changes for phab?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:20:09
|
<gwicke>
|
TimStarling: I opened a ticked about subscribing to a tag / project without being a member
|
|
2015-06-10 21:20:18
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
i think phab isn't the holdup. i think people either don't think they need or want input, or they beleve the process is too slow, or requires too much work.
|
|
2015-06-10 21:21:00
|
<gwicke>
|
DanielK_WMDE: agreed
|
|
2015-06-10 21:21:08
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
TimStarling: that would be nice... isn't there a project feed, though?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:21:11
|
<TimStarling>
|
and to some extent they are right
|
|
2015-06-10 21:21:13
|
<legoktm>
|
TimStarling: yes, I'd like all the features of MW's recentchanges system in phab ;)
|
|
2015-06-10 21:21:18
|
<TimStarling>
|
obviously doing your own stupid thing is quicker than asking for advice
|
|
2015-06-10 21:21:38
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
legoktm, TimStarling: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/feed/52/
|
|
2015-06-10 21:21:48
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
can we get that as an atom feed?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:22:16
|
<TimStarling>
|
and it requires more work to write a design document that other people can understand than to write a few notes to yourself before starting to code
|
|
2015-06-10 21:22:17
|
<gwicke>
|
TimStarling: at the same time, a lot of advice exchange is happening all the time in regular tasks
|
|
2015-06-10 21:22:24
|
<gwicke>
|
and code review
|
|
2015-06-10 21:22:28
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T67
|
|
2015-06-10 21:22:43
|
<chasemp>
|
we did propose briefly an RSS feed version of this and upstream as unconvinced as they saw RSS as dying technology (the project feed)
|
|
2015-06-10 21:22:51
|
<chasemp>
|
that doesn't mean a better made case wouldn't win the day
|
|
2015-06-10 21:22:54
|
<TimStarling>
|
gwicke: true
|
|
2015-06-10 21:23:02
|
<legoktm>
|
DanielK_WMDE: https://secure.phabricator.com/T1928 upstream thinks RSS is dead
|
|
2015-06-10 21:23:32
|
<legoktm>
|
DanielK_WMDE: the on-phab feed isn't useful: "GWicke edited the description of T99088: [Meta-RFC] Content adaptability, structured data and caching." tells me nothing about what he did, on mw.o I could see the entire diff
|
|
2015-06-10 21:23:52
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
legoktm: one person there does, anyway. we could argue
|
|
2015-06-10 21:23:59
|
<legoktm>
|
:P
|
|
2015-06-10 21:24:03
|
<gwicke>
|
there is a link to a diff if you go to the task, but it's somewhat hidden
|
|
2015-06-10 21:24:10
|
<legoktm>
|
but maybe I'm the only one who's frequently running to this as an issue?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:24:26
|
<spagewmf>
|
also ArchCom hasn't asserted itself. a) A comment from #ArchCom member on a ticket should be like the Word of God; b) ArchCom should produce a Future of MediaWiki story, saying This is How it's Gonna Be (now help realize it)
|
|
2015-06-10 21:24:28
|
<chasemp>
|
we could easily request the feed link go the diff itself
|
|
2015-06-10 21:24:32
|
<chasemp>
|
I have made similar requests
|
|
2015-06-10 21:25:49
|
<gwicke>
|
spagewmf: you are asking for a lot
|
|
2015-06-10 21:26:01
|
<jzerebecki>
|
i'd like for mails with "daniel edited Description." to contain the diff...
|
|
2015-06-10 21:27:36
|
<gwicke>
|
jzerebecki: +1
|
|
2015-06-10 21:27:54
|
<TimStarling>
|
I'd like MW watchlist emails to contain the diff
|
|
2015-06-10 21:28:21
|
<spagewmf>
|
gwicke: not really, a) is just prefixing comments with "Architecture Committee thinks..." and b) is https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Architecture_focus_2015 with some more context of what's already agreed
|
|
2015-06-10 21:28:26
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
spagewmf: i'm definitly with you on (b). not so sure about the Word of God thing, but it's appealing :P
|
|
2015-06-10 21:28:33
|
<jzerebecki>
|
TimStarling: +1
|
|
2015-06-10 21:29:07
|
<gwicke>
|
spagewmf: re b), I don't think the committee can do this in isolation
|
|
2015-06-10 21:29:50
|
<TimStarling>
|
there's something to be said for dogfooding
|
|
2015-06-10 21:29:58
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
gwicke: i think the archcom could *propose* such a vision, and put it up for discussion, as a whole.
|
|
2015-06-10 21:30:04
|
<gwicke>
|
I think the archcom can make sure the process to build such a shared vision happens, and guide it in the right direction
|
|
2015-06-10 21:30:07
|
<jzerebecki>
|
spagewmf: a) means ArchCom comments containing one contradictions results in undoing the universe :P
|
|
2015-06-10 21:30:11
|
<gwicke>
|
but I don't think it can completely replace it
|
|
2015-06-10 21:30:14
|
<TimStarling>
|
it would be a bit sad if we patched that feature into phabricator before we got it in MW
|
|
2015-06-10 21:30:29
|
<spagewmf>
|
b) things like you should be using OOUI; you should have tests and continuous integration; you must have a solid API. Things that set direction for anyone developing a feature
|
|
2015-06-10 21:30:40
|
<ori>
|
hello
|
|
2015-06-10 21:30:40
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
ori: on the minute :)
|
|
2015-06-10 21:30:41
|
<TimStarling>
|
hi ori
|
|
2015-06-10 21:31:01
|
<ori>
|
catches up with the backlog quickly
|
|
2015-06-10 21:31:12
|
<TimStarling>
|
we've just been talking about process stuff
|
|
2015-06-10 21:31:29
|
<gwicke>
|
spagewmf: to carry weight, things need to be carefully considered, with input from relevant teams
|
|
2015-06-10 21:31:51
|
<TimStarling>
|
any meeting notes or action items before we move on to ori's RFC?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:31:58
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
spagewmf: Thou Shallt Not Use The Global State, For It Is An Abomination!
|
|
2015-06-10 21:32:45
|
<ori>
|
is ready
|
|
2015-06-10 21:32:57
|
<TimStarling>
|
#topic Create a proper command-line runner for MediaWiki maintenance tasks | RFC meeting | Wikimedia meetings channel | Please note: Channel is logged and publicly posted (DO NOT REMOVE THIS NOTE) | Logs: http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23wikimedia-office/
|
|
2015-06-10 21:33:05
|
<TimStarling>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T99268
|
|
2015-06-10 21:33:44
|
<TimStarling>
|
ori: it's not clear what you expect to do about it being a mess
|
|
2015-06-10 21:34:05
|
<TimStarling>
|
it's a mess because nobody has tidied it up for a while
|
|
2015-06-10 21:34:08
|
<TimStarling>
|
right?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:34:17
|
<ori>
|
well, there are some essential design flaws
|
|
2015-06-10 21:34:35
|
<ori>
|
I think the classes which extend Maintenance should be autoloaded by the command-line runner
|
|
2015-06-10 21:34:51
|
<TimStarling>
|
but you want backwards compatibility
|
|
2015-06-10 21:34:56
|
<ori>
|
so that they can implement interfaces that describe functionality and (perhaps) indicate utility
|
|
2015-06-10 21:35:12
|
<TimStarling>
|
would you move the implementation out and just leave a stub in maintenance/?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:35:43
|
<ori>
|
I'm not sure. Open to suggestions.
|
|
2015-06-10 21:35:56
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
i think the tricky question is how to enumerate the maintenance commands.
|
|
2015-06-10 21:35:58
|
<ori>
|
On the task I suggested: The top-level entry-point script could then walk the maintenance/ hierarchy and include each PHP file it encounters. It could then iterate on get_declared_classes(), looking for Maintenance subclasses.
|
|
2015-06-10 21:36:26
|
<ori>
|
That's obviously very horrible, but given that command-line invocations are presumably infrequent, maybe that would be OK
|
|
2015-06-10 21:36:37
|
<SMalyshev>
|
it looks like the proposal is going to load all the classes to do that... maybe there's better way for it?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:36:39
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
ori: but this would run all top level code. most files should behave well, but do all?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:36:42
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
can we rely on that?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:36:45
|
<bd808>
|
there are a zillion 3rd party PHP cli libraries
|
|
2015-06-10 21:36:57
|
<ori>
|
DanielK_WMDE: the previous sentence is: "Because the entry-point script would have to be aware of (and capable of inspecting) Maintenance subclasses, the files in maintenance/ must be audited to ensure they are safe to include (i.e., they have no code with side-effects in file scope)."
|
|
2015-06-10 21:37:07
|
<ori>
|
bd808: yes, that was the other consideration -- there are, and there are some good ones
|
|
2015-06-10 21:37:36
|
<TimStarling>
|
I didn't like the get_declared_classes() proposal
|
|
2015-06-10 21:37:37
|
<jzerebecki>
|
walking maintenance/ doesn't work for extensions
|
|
2015-06-10 21:37:51
|
<TimStarling>
|
I would have a registration interface
|
|
2015-06-10 21:37:53
|
<csteipp>
|
And by "top-level" you mean in the directory root, instead of a subdir, right?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:38:06
|
<TimStarling>
|
maybe like ResourceLoader modules
|
|
2015-06-10 21:38:07
|
<ori>
|
TimStarling: that's obviously the right solution for anything created from here on
|
|
2015-06-10 21:38:21
|
<ori>
|
("Extensions should be able to register additional subcommands. This could be done by extending the extension.json schema or by providing a hook that extensions can use to register subcommands, similar to the way the UnitTestsList and ResourceLoaderRegisterModules hooks allow extensions to declare unit tests and ResourceLoader modules.")
|
|
2015-06-10 21:38:24
|
<SMalyshev>
|
do we have to load all of those as classes to just list options? can't we load them as text and scan comments or something?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:38:29
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
TimStarling: the extension could register classes, callbacks, or just a directory
|
|
2015-06-10 21:38:37
|
<jzerebecki>
|
+1 on registration interface
|
|
2015-06-10 21:39:10
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
SMalyshev: we could look for @annotation style tags
|
|
2015-06-10 21:39:12
|
<ori>
|
I mean, a better solution for back-compat would be to roll up our sleeves and port the older scripts to the registration interface we implement / incorporate via composer
|
|
2015-06-10 21:39:32
|
<TimStarling>
|
oh god don't say composer
|
|
2015-06-10 21:39:36
|
<ori>
|
I'd be up for that, but it's a lot for one person, and I wasn't sure if other people felt this was an important thing to do
|
|
2015-06-10 21:39:45
|
<SMalyshev>
|
DanielK_WMDE: exactly, something like that. If some scripts aren't annotated - so they don't show up, if called directly still can be run
|
|
2015-06-10 21:39:47
|
<TimStarling>
|
can't we have one RFC that doesn't discuss composer for half an hour?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:39:54
|
<legoktm>
|
:P
|
|
2015-06-10 21:39:57
|
<ori>
|
c######r
|
|
2015-06-10 21:40:01
|
<bd808>
|
SMalyshev: I was wondering something similar. If we just need class discovery and we aren't worried about speed then we could do some sort of annotation search
|
|
2015-06-10 21:40:26
|
<SMalyshev>
|
grepping 200 files is not that big deal I think... even in php.
|
|
2015-06-10 21:40:30
|
<TimStarling>
|
we have a number of precedents for registration interfaces that you could follow
|
|
2015-06-10 21:40:35
|
<TimStarling>
|
extension.json is the most recent
|
|
2015-06-10 21:40:42
|
<ori>
|
bd808, SMalyshev: that's the sort of code that you end up apologizing for when you on-board new developers
|
|
2015-06-10 21:40:49
|
<TimStarling>
|
ResourceLoader is slightly less recent
|
|
2015-06-10 21:41:02
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
ori: i like SMalyshev's idea... maintenance scripts could just have a tag like @mw_cli_class RefreshFooBar in the top comment block.
|
|
2015-06-10 21:41:04
|
<TimStarling>
|
before that -- special pages, query pages, languages, skins
|
|
2015-06-10 21:41:15
|
<bd808>
|
ori: maybe not if you find a maintained lib that already does it, but I do get your point
|
|
2015-06-10 21:41:17
|
<SMalyshev>
|
ori: dunno... not worse than loading 200 files IMHO.
|
|
2015-06-10 21:41:27
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
ori: that would tell the runner what classes are in which file, and allows them to be enumerated nicely.
|
|
2015-06-10 21:41:49
|
<jzerebecki>
|
DanielK_WMDE: then scan all files, including extensions?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:41:53
|
<SMalyshev>
|
at least we won't have the tool freak out if someone broke one script
|
|
2015-06-10 21:42:00
|
<TimStarling>
|
I don't think we need to invent a new registration method based on get_declared_classes() when there are so many better precedents to follow
|
|
2015-06-10 21:42:09
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
jzerebecki: the maintenance dir, and whatever additional dirs extensions have registered
|
|
2015-06-10 21:42:13
|
<legoktm>
|
I don't like the idea of autodiscovery, an explicit registration system sounds much better
|
|
2015-06-10 21:42:15
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
just like with tests
|
|
2015-06-10 21:42:27
|
<ori>
|
I agree that explicit registration is better
|
|
2015-06-10 21:42:45
|
<ori>
|
I raised the autodiscovery question in the context of what to do about the piles and piles of existing maintenance scripts
|
|
2015-06-10 21:42:53
|
<SMalyshev>
|
right, phpunit does stuff like that and it mostly works
|
|
2015-06-10 21:42:54
|
<gwicke>
|
to me it sounds like a lot of the listing and guidance benefit could be had by listing the directory, and post-processing the result
|
|
2015-06-10 21:43:09
|
<gwicke>
|
per-entry-point help would require calling the sub-script
|
|
2015-06-10 21:43:22
|
<legoktm>
|
for back-compat, we could continue supporting the Maintenance.php entry point so people still use php fooBar.php, and for newer scripts, they use the new system
|
|
2015-06-10 21:43:22
|
<ori>
|
Porting each one to the new registration mechanism would be cleaner, but I'm not volunteering for doing that for 150 scripts
|
|
2015-06-10 21:43:41
|
<legoktm>
|
and we'd probably want to keep supporting "php update.php"
|
|
2015-06-10 21:43:42
|
<ori>
|
legoktm: that's not a bad idea
|
|
2015-06-10 21:44:07
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
oh hey nice, we could go all fance with token_get_all()
|
|
2015-06-10 21:44:15
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
*fancy
|
|
2015-06-10 21:44:18
|
<jzerebecki>
|
SMalyshev: phpunit freaks out if one file breaks, not that I dislike its way...
|
|
2015-06-10 21:44:44
|
<SMalyshev>
|
looking at maintenance, most of them have 1-line description as first line of comment. I bet one could write a script to get it to @annotation or callback() or something...
|
|
2015-06-10 21:44:56
|
<ori>
|
is still not sold on that
|
|
2015-06-10 21:44:59
|
<TimStarling>
|
we don't need to have really high standards for b/c in this case
|
|
2015-06-10 21:45:21
|
<TimStarling>
|
most of the scripts are purely a UI
|
|
2015-06-10 21:45:54
|
<bd808>
|
Drupal uses https://doctrine-common.readthedocs.org/en/latest/reference/annotations.html
|
|
2015-06-10 21:46:05
|
<bd808>
|
to locate plugins
|
|
2015-06-10 21:46:09
|
<TimStarling>
|
my inclination would be to move everything to includes/maintenance and leave stubs behind in maintenance/
|
|
2015-06-10 21:46:23
|
<TimStarling>
|
but don't even bother to commit the stubs for useless old stuff that nobody ever runs
|
|
2015-06-10 21:46:28
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
use Doctrine\Common\Annotations\AnnotationReader;
|
|
2015-06-10 21:46:29
|
<gwicke>
|
it sounds like one of the goals is to point out the most important scripts separately; this would require some knowledge about what the important ones are, which could be built into an entry point
|
|
2015-06-10 21:46:33
|
<ori>
|
I don't think grepping files or auto-loading them is optimal, so unless there is a hard back-compat requirement (which there sounds like there isn't) I'm not in favor of that approach
|
|
2015-06-10 21:46:48
|
<SMalyshev>
|
IMHO drupal is overdoing it but we don't need to build an ORM :)
|
|
2015-06-10 21:47:03
|
<ori>
|
An explicit registration would really be better
|
|
2015-06-10 21:47:19
|
<bd808>
|
explicit registration seems like a reasonable idea to me
|
|
2015-06-10 21:47:23
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
ori: a big json file?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:47:23
|
<TimStarling>
|
out of 150 scripts, maybe you need 30 b/c stubs
|
|
2015-06-10 21:47:38
|
<spagewmf>
|
FYI 122 extensions/*/maint*/*.php scripts, https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/P759
|
|
2015-06-10 21:47:43
|
<tgr>
|
just load all the files and cache the results? slow on first run, only needs to stat the files after that
|
|
2015-06-10 21:48:00
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
spagewmf: tnx
|
|
2015-06-10 21:48:08
|
<SMalyshev>
|
if we have scripts.json with registration, then we could run a script to fill it in with old ones so we don't need to do it manually...
|
|
2015-06-10 21:48:19
|
<ori>
|
OK so for the remaining ten minutes, since it sounds like the back-compat issue isn't big one way or another
|
|
2015-06-10 21:48:34
|
<ori>
|
I'd love to solicit endorsement of any existing CLI frameworks
|
|
2015-06-10 21:48:44
|
<ori>
|
if anyone has experience with any
|
|
2015-06-10 21:49:15
|
<legoktm>
|
we could first start with explicitly registering the current maint scripts and introducing a simple entry point that calls Maintenance::runChild()?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:49:19
|
<ori>
|
and if anyone has a registration mechanism in core that they particularly like, that would be cool too
|
|
2015-06-10 21:49:46
|
<ori>
|
legoktm: for extensions too?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:49:50
|
<TimStarling>
|
I don't know about json as a configuration format
|
|
2015-06-10 21:50:04
|
<bd808>
|
ori: symfony/console is pretty widely used. not sure how aewsome it is
|
|
2015-06-10 21:50:30
|
<legoktm>
|
ori: yeah
|
|
2015-06-10 21:50:31
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
ori: well, symphony is all the rage... but i have never used it. looks a bit bloated, but nice https://github.com/symfony/Console
|
|
2015-06-10 21:50:37
|
<TimStarling>
|
Resources.php has lots of comments in it
|
|
2015-06-10 21:50:46
|
<TimStarling>
|
you can't have comments in JSON, I am told
|
|
2015-06-10 21:50:58
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
ori: i dislike them all, let's write one that we can then use for everything :)
|
|
2015-06-10 21:51:07
|
<TimStarling>
|
I mean, we discussed this at the start of the extension registration project and I said that we totally can and should have comments in JSON
|
|
2015-06-10 21:51:23
|
<TimStarling>
|
but whatever, I'm now told it's impossible, so we should stop using it
|
|
2015-06-10 21:51:27
|
<tgr>
|
symfony console is quite nice, not sure how much of the framework it drags with itself though
|
|
2015-06-10 21:51:29
|
<bd808>
|
json + comments == yaml
|
|
2015-06-10 21:51:51
|
<ori>
|
we could switch to yaml, the existing json files would be valid
|
|
2015-06-10 21:51:55
|
<TimStarling>
|
json + comments + a hundred pages of parsing pain and idiocy = yaml
|
|
2015-06-10 21:52:03
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
hehehe
|
|
2015-06-10 21:52:03
|
<ori>
|
I was going to make the same joke :P
|
|
2015-06-10 21:52:03
|
<bd808>
|
:) that too
|
|
2015-06-10 21:52:19
|
<bd808>
|
but I wrote so many tests! ;)
|
|
2015-06-10 21:52:24
|
<ori>
|
the parsing pain / idiocy doesn't really matter if it's encapsulated in library that is maintained upstream (cough)
|
|
2015-06-10 21:52:26
|
<TimStarling>
|
I had this discussion with yuri at lyon
|
|
2015-06-10 21:52:44
|
<TimStarling>
|
he said "we should use yaml instead of json so that we can put comments in it"
|
|
2015-06-10 21:52:55
|
<SMalyshev>
|
there's https://pecl.php.net/package/yaml but no idea how good
|
|
2015-06-10 21:53:04
|
<ori>
|
SMalyshev: look at the maintainer's name
|
|
2015-06-10 21:53:06
|
<spagewmf>
|
TimStarling: legoktm's extension.json supports "@NOTE": "whatever I want to say", seems a reasonable convention
|
|
2015-06-10 21:53:09
|
<SMalyshev>
|
ahh, I see :)
|
|
2015-06-10 21:53:12
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
can we just strip all lines starting with # and be done with it?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:53:13
|
<bd808>
|
oh it's horrible SMalyshev horrible
|
|
2015-06-10 21:53:18
|
<TimStarling>
|
I said: you know, the problem with yaml is that nobody is aware of the fact that you have to put quotes around "yes" to stop it from being a string
|
|
2015-06-10 21:53:22
|
<SMalyshev>
|
sure it's excellent then :)
|
|
2015-06-10 21:53:27
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
we could call this dialect json#
|
|
2015-06-10 21:53:34
|
<TimStarling>
|
yuri said: actually I was not aware of that
|
|
2015-06-10 21:53:39
|
<ori>
|
What sort of comments do you envision for extension.json?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:53:49
|
<ori>
|
I think it's pretty minimal right now which is a good thing
|
|
2015-06-10 21:53:54
|
<TimStarling>
|
so I looked for it in the spec
|
|
2015-06-10 21:54:10
|
<ori>
|
if you need to pontificate out loud about the contents of extension.json that's probably a red flag
|
|
2015-06-10 21:54:13
|
<bd808>
|
http://yaml.org/type/bool.html
|
|
2015-06-10 21:54:19
|
<TimStarling>
|
the main spec doesn't mention it, you have to go to the type registry, and then find the boolean type spec
|
|
2015-06-10 21:54:25
|
<ori>
|
that said I added comment support to .dblist files a month ago
|
|
2015-06-10 21:54:36
|
<TimStarling>
|
it's like XML
|
|
2015-06-10 21:54:40
|
<legoktm>
|
it's much easier to add support for comments to extension.json afterwards than it would be to remove support for them after the fact
|
|
2015-06-10 21:54:41
|
<bd808>
|
the yaml spec is a bit of a dog's breakfast
|
|
2015-06-10 21:54:56
|
<TimStarling>
|
actually just use XML, at least we understand what sort of pain we're getting into with XML
|
|
2015-06-10 21:54:59
|
<ori>
|
We should maintain a list of Tim Starling trigger words and forbid them in RFCs. Composer and JSON are primary candidates.
|
|
2015-06-10 21:55:02
|
<SMalyshev>
|
yeah whoever wrote that spec must hate implementers...
|
|
2015-06-10 21:55:41
|
<spagewmf>
|
ori: me? AIUI because LocalSettings.php encourages arbitrary # comments, this is the extension.json equivalent
|
|
2015-06-10 21:55:54
|
<ori>
|
Ok, last question, fuzzy but important:
|
|
2015-06-10 21:56:09
|
<ori>
|
do people share my sense that the current mess is very ugly and worth doing something about?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:56:18
|
<jzerebecki>
|
ori: yes!
|
|
2015-06-10 21:56:21
|
<ori>
|
it'd be good to know if there was a snowball's chance of other people getting involved in a cleanup
|
|
2015-06-10 21:56:22
|
<legoktm>
|
yes
|
|
2015-06-10 21:56:25
|
<ori>
|
even without firm commitments
|
|
2015-06-10 21:56:26
|
<ori>
|
cool
|
|
2015-06-10 21:56:40
|
<gwicke>
|
re config formats: https://github.com/toml-lang/toml has some nice properties
|
|
2015-06-10 21:56:55
|
<gwicke>
|
but, yet another format..
|
|
2015-06-10 21:56:59
|
<TimStarling>
|
if we ever have debian packaging of mediawiki, it would be nice to have a single maintenance script entry point
|
|
2015-06-10 21:57:05
|
<TimStarling>
|
then we can install it into /usr/bin
|
|
2015-06-10 21:57:22
|
<TimStarling>
|
or a wrapper for it, anyway
|
|
2015-06-10 21:57:36
|
<Krenair>
|
like mwscript?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:57:41
|
<Krenair>
|
:P
|
|
2015-06-10 21:58:04
|
<spagewmf>
|
ori: I had a question about "sign-posts to guide the user", how do maintenance scripts say what they do? https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Writing_maintenance_scripts dpesm
|
|
2015-06-10 21:58:17
|
<TimStarling>
|
Krenair: what does mwscript --help do?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:58:17
|
<ori>
|
same way API modules do
|
|
2015-06-10 21:58:20
|
<spagewmf>
|
... doesn't describe a way to describe what they do
|
|
2015-06-10 21:58:34
|
<ori>
|
by implementing methods that provide information about their purpose and parameters
|
|
2015-06-10 21:59:06
|
<Krenair>
|
tells you off for not providing a wiki database
|
|
2015-06-10 21:59:16
|
<ori>
|
I'm a bit fuzzier on how you determine the subset of subcommands that should be enumerate when the command-line entrypoint is invoked with no arguments (or with --help), like git
|
|
2015-06-10 21:59:32
|
<ori>
|
should it be curated by us, or do we allow subcommands to indicate their own importance?
|
|
2015-06-10 21:59:41
|
<ori>
|
tilts toward curation
|
|
2015-06-10 22:00:01
|
<TimStarling>
|
they should at least have groups
|
|
2015-06-10 22:00:11
|
<ori>
|
oh yeah, groups are a good idea
|
|
2015-06-10 22:00:21
|
<Krenair>
|
yeah
|
|
2015-06-10 22:00:22
|
<aude>
|
waves :)
|
|
2015-06-10 22:00:32
|
<TimStarling>
|
maybe groups and a boolean "advanced" flag
|
|
2015-06-10 22:00:43
|
<TimStarling>
|
which will hide them from the default display
|
|
2015-06-10 22:01:01
|
<ori>
|
that's a good idea too
|
|
2015-06-10 22:01:08
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
oh good, flags
|
|
2015-06-10 22:01:36
|
<SMalyshev>
|
yep advanced flag sounds good.
|
|
2015-06-10 22:01:41
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
wants "silly" and "ymmv"
|
|
2015-06-10 22:01:46
|
<spagewmf>
|
ori: yeah I see $this->addDescription( 'What it does...'), not in that manual page, and used by very few extension scripts :-/
|
|
2015-06-10 22:01:48
|
<aude>
|
most awesome would be to get rid of phpunit.php as a "maintenance" script and have a proper bootstrap that phpunit + maintenance scripts can use
|
|
2015-06-10 22:01:59
|
<Krenair>
|
where'd we draw the line on 'advanced'?
|
|
2015-06-10 22:02:06
|
<aude>
|
whatever libraries we use...
|
|
2015-06-10 22:02:28
|
<TimStarling>
|
we should wrap up
|
|
2015-06-10 22:02:41
|
<TimStarling>
|
there's obviously a lot more design to do
|
|
2015-06-10 22:03:04
|
<ori>
|
I can update the task with the bits that we agreed on, there seem to be quite a few points which were uncontroversial
|
|
2015-06-10 22:03:23
|
<TimStarling>
|
it sounds like ori and legoktm will collaborate on it
|
|
2015-06-10 22:03:42
|
<legoktm>
|
I uh,
|
|
2015-06-10 22:03:43
|
<spagewmf>
|
ori and legoktm for co-CTO!
|
|
2015-06-10 22:03:49
|
<ori>
|
legoktm: are you volunteering to help? (I would love that)
|
|
2015-06-10 22:03:59
|
<ori>
|
he's only doing a million other things
|
|
2015-06-10 22:04:07
|
<legoktm>
|
I can provide advice, but don't really have much time to dedicate to actually doing things
|
|
2015-06-10 22:04:11
|
<ori>
|
don't answer, i shouldn't put you on the spot
|
|
2015-06-10 22:04:14
|
<ori>
|
yeah that's fine
|
|
2015-06-10 22:04:28
|
<TimStarling>
|
ok
|
|
2015-06-10 22:05:10
|
<TimStarling>
|
well, update the RFC, propose an interface, write to wikitech-l, then maybe we should schedule another meeting
|
|
2015-06-10 22:05:20
|
<ori>
|
sounds good to me
|
|
2015-06-10 22:05:45
|
<ori>
|
will write to wikitech-l.... in JSON
|
|
2015-06-10 22:05:52
|
<TimStarling>
|
lol
|
|
2015-06-10 22:06:05
|
<spagewmf>
|
is script config file in the proposal, or is it just discovery of Maintenance subclasses?
|
|
2015-06-10 22:06:12
|
<DanielK_WMDE>
|
do we have an atom feed for wikitech-l?
|
|
2015-06-10 22:06:36
|
<ori>
|
script config file is not in the proposal
|
|
2015-06-10 22:06:40
|
<legoktm>
|
DanielK_WMDE: of course, gmane :)
|
|
2015-06-10 22:06:49
|
<TimStarling>
|
#endmeeting
|
|
2015-06-10 22:06:49
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting ended Wed Jun 10 22:06:49 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
|
|
2015-06-10 22:06:49
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-10-21.02.html
|
|
2015-06-10 22:06:49
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (text): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-10-21.02.txt
|
|
2015-06-10 22:06:50
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (wiki): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-10-21.02.wiki
|
|
2015-06-10 22:06:50
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Log: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-10-21.02.log.html
|
|
2015-06-10 22:07:05
|
<ori>
|
thanks for waiting for me guys
|
|
2015-06-10 22:07:10
|
<ori>
|
and thanks for the suggestions
|
|
2015-06-10 22:07:16
|
<spagewmf>
|
ori: WFM, maybe class Maintenance could have addGroup() to group scripts
|
|
2015-06-10 22:07:27
|
<spagewmf>
|
and we promote addDescription() more
|
|
2015-06-10 22:08:06
|
<ori>
|
I'm not sure if class Maintenance could be rehabilitated without badly breaking a ton of scripts that are perhaps not hugely important but should still ideally work
|
|
2015-06-10 22:08:31
|
<ori>
|
using an existing CLI framework and hand-porting the important ones seems better
|
|
2015-06-10 22:08:34
|
<ori>
|
but I gotta run! :)
|
|
2015-06-10 22:08:40
|
<spagewmf>
|
bye, thanks!@
|
|
2015-06-10 22:08:42
|
<aude>
|
slowly replace maintenance with something else :)
|
|
2015-06-10 22:08:48
|
<aude>
|
that maybe has those things
|
|
2015-06-10 22:09:14
|
<aude>
|
thinks it's especially evil that phpunit uses Maintenance.php
|
|
2015-06-10 22:11:24
|
<spagewmf>
|
aude: I just realized Maintenance has ::readConsole() and ::readlineEmulation() 8-)
|
|
2015-06-11 17:45:43
|
<James_F>
|
Hello everyone.
|
|
2015-06-11 17:45:57
|
<James_F>
|
We'll be starting Metrics in about 15 minutes.
|
|
2015-06-11 17:46:25
|
<James_F>
|
I'll be the IRC liaison today. Hopefully I can answer your questions (or others can), and if not, I'll ask our speakers on your behalf.
|
|
2015-06-11 17:53:08
|
<rfarrand>
|
thanks James_F
|
|
2015-06-11 17:58:48
|
<James_F>
|
Everyone's now filing in here in SF.
|
|
2015-06-11 17:58:53
|
<James_F>
|
I'm sure we'll start soon.
|
|
2015-06-11 17:59:31
|
<gnubeard>
|
MNFTIU
|
|
2015-06-11 18:00:04
|
<Pine>
|
what does that stand for? (just walked in)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:00:32
|
<victorgrigas>
|
Hello everyone
|
|
2015-06-11 18:00:40
|
<Pine>
|
Hi Victor
|
|
2015-06-11 18:00:42
|
<James_F>
|
Pine: I think it's just line noise.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:00:47
|
<Pine>
|
ok
|
|
2015-06-11 18:01:09
|
<James_F>
|
OK, Katherine's standing up. Starting in a few seconds.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:01:09
|
<foks>
|
"My New Filing Technique Is Unstoppable"
|
|
2015-06-11 18:01:15
|
<Pine>
|
Heh
|
|
2015-06-11 18:01:17
|
<gnubeard>
|
foks: That’s it.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:01:24
|
<foks>
|
David Rees. :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:01:29
|
<gnubeard>
|
:) Funny stuff.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:01:46
|
<harej>
|
If it's started, we're not seeing anything on the simulcast.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:01:52
|
<harej>
|
If it hasn't started, well, carry on!
|
|
2015-06-11 18:01:54
|
<James_F>
|
Video should be live in a few seconds.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:01:59
|
<rfarrand>
|
harej: it takes a little while
|
|
2015-06-11 18:02:02
|
<James_F>
|
Should when you see it.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:02:07
|
<gnubeard>
|
I was reminded of it when James_F mentioned that people are filing in to the room in SF.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:02:19
|
<James_F>
|
grins at gnubeard.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:02:24
|
<harej>
|
You have to do a time delay in case Lila starts cussing like a sailor? :D
|
|
2015-06-11 18:03:00
|
<Pine>
|
No comment.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:03:06
|
<James_F>
|
harej: Because we don't have the billions to build a live-broadcast equivalent of YouTube live video casting. :-)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:03:06
|
<halfak>
|
wants bleeps to be added to Metrics meetings
|
|
2015-06-11 18:03:21
|
<James_F>
|
harej: It'd be mysterious.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:03:26
|
<rdaiccherlb>
|
Oops, Benoît Evellin is also in Community Engagement
|
|
2015-06-11 18:03:28
|
<marktraceur>
|
halfak: Join the hangout and {{sofixit}}
|
|
2015-06-11 18:03:37
|
<halfak>
|
yells "bleep"
|
|
2015-06-11 18:03:54
|
<halfak>
|
I'd have to hear the curse word coming in advance
|
|
2015-06-11 18:03:57
|
<meganhernandez>
|
you guys are getting please stand by?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:04:01
|
<harej>
|
Yes
|
|
2015-06-11 18:04:03
|
<harej>
|
It hasn't started yet
|
|
2015-06-11 18:04:03
|
<James_F>
|
Oh.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:04:06
|
<rfarrand>
|
halfak: you yell in caps
|
|
2015-06-11 18:04:06
|
<harej>
|
NOW!
|
|
2015-06-11 18:04:18
|
<Pine>
|
I see "community update" but no other imagery
|
|
2015-06-11 18:04:25
|
<halfak>
|
I see nothing
|
|
2015-06-11 18:04:28
|
<James_F>
|
Ah, so some of you are getting video?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:04:31
|
<halfak>
|
refreshes
|
|
2015-06-11 18:04:33
|
<RoanKattouw>
|
You should now see the faces of the three new board members?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:04:35
|
<meganhernandez>
|
i get video now
|
|
2015-06-11 18:04:37
|
<halfak>
|
Video is live!
|
|
2015-06-11 18:04:39
|
<meeple27>
|
I have a spinning wheel
|
|
2015-06-11 18:04:40
|
<Pine>
|
Got sound
|
|
2015-06-11 18:04:40
|
<Pine>
|
There we go
|
|
2015-06-11 18:04:42
|
<RoanKattouw>
|
And a graph of voting patterns
|
|
2015-06-11 18:04:46
|
<K4-713>
|
There it goes.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:04:46
|
<marktraceur>
|
waits...
|
|
2015-06-11 18:04:56
|
<meeple27>
|
refresh worked
|
|
2015-06-11 18:05:05
|
<greg-g>
|
josephine: oh hey, reminder for the people on stream/hangout: can you double click on the video to make it resize so they can see the bottom of the slides, please? thanks!
|
|
2015-06-11 18:05:29
|
<marktraceur>
|
"Please stand by"
|
|
2015-06-11 18:05:44
|
<chasemp>
|
manual refresh worked for me
|
|
2015-06-11 18:06:06
|
<qgil>
|
Interesting the link with "participate" that appears as pannel has like 10 seconds less lag
|
|
2015-06-11 18:06:22
|
<halfak>
|
looks for himself in lyon picture
|
|
2015-06-11 18:06:35
|
<Pine>
|
The audio quality is echo-y and has other interesting artifacts
|
|
2015-06-11 18:06:40
|
<halfak>
|
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikimedia_Hackathon_2015_-_2360_-_Group_photo.jpg
|
|
2015-06-11 18:06:41
|
<rfarrand>
|
:D
|
|
2015-06-11 18:06:46
|
<chasemp>
|
who is talking?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:06:50
|
<qgil>
|
Siko
|
|
2015-06-11 18:06:51
|
<lilatretikov>
|
Sico
|
|
2015-06-11 18:06:53
|
<James_F>
|
chasemp: Siko.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:06:53
|
<lilatretikov>
|
Siko
|
|
2015-06-11 18:07:04
|
<halfak>
|
Nooo! I got hand-faced
|
|
2015-06-11 18:07:15
|
<chasemp>
|
thanks qgil lilatretikov James_F :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:07:16
|
<lilatretikov>
|
We can ohotoshop you in
|
|
2015-06-11 18:07:18
|
<Pine>
|
victorgrigas: can you tweak the audio quality?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:07:20
|
<halfak>
|
andrewbogott, :P
|
|
2015-06-11 18:07:34
|
<halfak>
|
It looks like you are the culprit
|
|
2015-06-11 18:07:46
|
<lilatretikov>
|
We can photoshop you in (keyboard problems)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:08:00
|
<halfak>
|
:)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:08:05
|
<Pine>
|
I blame halfak for playing with lilatretikov's keyboard.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:08:07
|
<halfak>
|
takes that as a challenge
|
|
2015-06-11 18:08:10
|
<marktraceur>
|
Finally, there we go
|
|
2015-06-11 18:08:47
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
Why weren't they being re-integrated?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:09:00
|
<lilatretikov>
|
Only ethical hacking please!
|
|
2015-06-11 18:09:01
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
Conflicting changes made to the non-English languages in the meantime, or just no one uploaded the translated output?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:09:56
|
<guillom>
|
James_F: Are you handling the questions from IRC or is it someone else? (see matt_flaschen's above)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:10:20
|
<James_F>
|
guillom: I am, but I was hoping someone would answer in the 40 minutes before question time. :-)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:10:29
|
<guillom>
|
Fair enough :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:10:30
|
<James_F>
|
(Otherwise it's a bit sucky for matt_flaschen's question.)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:10:38
|
<marktraceur>
|
Wow, those are some mega bytes
|
|
2015-06-11 18:10:48
|
<andrewbogott>
|
halfak: I’m the culprit for what now?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:11:10
|
<spagewmf>
|
did/can/will the medical translation use https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Content_translation
|
|
2015-06-11 18:11:14
|
<halfak>
|
andrewbogott, covering my face in the lyon photo https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Wikimedia_Hackathon_2015_-_2360_-_Group_photo.jpg
|
|
2015-06-11 18:11:20
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
+1 to spagewmf's question. Was going to ask the same thing.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:11:23
|
<andrewbogott>
|
oh, yeah — I do my best :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:11:32
|
<spagewmf>
|
Content Translation is only major languages right now, I think?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:11:32
|
<jaufrecht>
|
what was the impact to the world of having that Ebola information translated and available (and current?)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:11:41
|
<jaufrecht>
|
how many people read it that otherwise wouldn't have, and how did it help them?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:11:50
|
<James_F>
|
spagewmf: CX is enabled on a per-wiki basis.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:11:51
|
<lilatretikov>
|
James, could you list questions so if we don't get to them we can answer on-wiki?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:12:01
|
<James_F>
|
lilatretikov: OK, I'll transfer to an Etherpad.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:12:14
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
I think there may have been some discussion about using CX infrastructure even when machine translation wasn't available.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:12:54
|
<victorgrigas>
|
The video is black for me ( I can hear audio though)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:13:04
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
Yeah
|
|
2015-06-11 18:13:06
|
<ori>
|
ditto
|
|
2015-06-11 18:13:09
|
<SMalyshev>
|
no video :(
|
|
2015-06-11 18:13:15
|
<James_F>
|
https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/AQHgBp0lGw
|
|
2015-06-11 18:13:18
|
<ori>
|
it's not black, it's eigengrau
|
|
2015-06-11 18:13:25
|
<halfak>
|
Lila is censored
|
|
2015-06-11 18:13:30
|
<halfak>
|
;)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:13:32
|
<James_F>
|
Green now?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:13:39
|
<halfak>
|
Slides!
|
|
2015-06-11 18:13:49
|
<foks>
|
A very colourful slideshow!
|
|
2015-06-11 18:13:49
|
<victorgrigas>
|
green yes, I can see the slides
|
|
2015-06-11 18:13:49
|
<SMalyshev>
|
oh green, much better!
|
|
2015-06-11 18:13:54
|
<qgil>
|
still black
|
|
2015-06-11 18:14:15
|
<qgil>
|
now looks good
|
|
2015-06-11 18:14:48
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
learned a new word today, and looks forward to using eigengrau in conversation.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:14:57
|
<James_F>
|
matt_flaschen: :-)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:15:42
|
<byron>
|
@qgil the youtube stream lags behind. This hangout link is realtime: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYcrNZLaMVfhknXWFEOHJj3Hun4A6TEIV1ieiwn2TMZ2RdptXQ?authuser=0&hl=en
|
|
2015-06-11 18:16:16
|
<qgil>
|
byron, if I click now, will I miss the 15 most vital information about the strategy? ;)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:16:24
|
<James_F>
|
byron: You just shared that extremely-limited-attendance link publicly… I hope no-one else needs to join.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:16:49
|
<byron>
|
We have 3 people in the hangout atm
|
|
2015-06-11 18:17:05
|
<cajoel>
|
no remote presenters today
|
|
2015-06-11 18:17:20
|
<James_F>
|
OK, that makes things easier for a few.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:17:48
|
<spagewmf>
|
+1 for "communities" plural. There is no (one) "community"
|
|
2015-06-11 18:19:15
|
<greg-g>
|
is that "facebook blue"? ;)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:19:31
|
<guillom>
|
byron: We need to train presenters to look at the small screen in front of them, to avoid turning back to watch the big screen. (and we need to turn the small screen towards them! :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:19:35
|
<gnubeard>
|
greg-g: No. LinkedIn blue.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:19:40
|
<qgil>
|
Windows 8 blue
|
|
2015-06-11 18:19:50
|
<greg-g>
|
gnubeard: ah, "better" :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:19:55
|
<K4-713>
|
argh!
|
|
2015-06-11 18:19:55
|
<James_F>
|
guillom: Given that the small screen doesn't currently have that slaved onto it, it wouldn't work well. :-(
|
|
2015-06-11 18:19:58
|
<guillom>
|
Better would be Tardis Blue.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:20:02
|
<cajoel>
|
byron: set confidence monitor on the slides and I will turn it around
|
|
2015-06-11 18:20:09
|
<guillom>
|
James_F: Yes, I'm saying: for next time.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:20:10
|
<Deskana>
|
guillom: Isn't that small screen turned towards the audience right now?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:20:13
|
<byron>
|
@quillom noted, @ joel will do
|
|
2015-06-11 18:20:15
|
<Deskana>
|
guillom: It's got IRC on it.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:20:18
|
<greg-g>
|
James_F: it can, it was before
|
|
2015-06-11 18:20:20
|
<James_F>
|
guillom: It's now turned around. :-)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:20:30
|
<James_F>
|
Now Lila can see the IRC channel.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:20:42
|
<James_F>
|
Let's not distract her.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:20:44
|
<greg-g>
|
it was showing the hangout before, at least
|
|
2015-06-11 18:20:48
|
<halfak>
|
What happens after Generation Z?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:20:49
|
<greg-g>
|
HI LILA!
|
|
2015-06-11 18:20:52
|
<qgil>
|
hangout avatars obfuscate the strategy!
|
|
2015-06-11 18:21:08
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
The hangout people cut off the bottom of the slides. In the future, we should try to take that height into account when building the slides.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:21:16
|
<foks>
|
^ +1
|
|
2015-06-11 18:21:17
|
<gnubeard>
|
halfak: A new anime series comes out.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:21:24
|
<qgil>
|
as far as I remember you can project full screen
|
|
2015-06-11 18:21:29
|
<qgil>
|
no avatars
|
|
2015-06-11 18:21:32
|
<guillom>
|
halfak: Diacritics.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:21:36
|
<foks>
|
halfak, Generation AA? :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:21:37
|
<halfak>
|
Generation Z GT
|
|
2015-06-11 18:21:39
|
<RoanKattouw>
|
Are the slides published somewhere?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:21:40
|
<marktraceur>
|
I didn't know [[Big Data (band)]] was a major part of our strategy process.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:21:44
|
<gwicke>
|
guillom: or, cologne blue for the old-timers
|
|
2015-06-11 18:21:45
|
<Coren>
|
Note: The Bibliotheque and Archives Nationales of Quebec is actually talking with WMCA to get their entire collection digitized and on Wikisource.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:21:48
|
<RoanKattouw>
|
Then people can follow along there to work around the cutoff issue
|
|
2015-06-11 18:21:50
|
<greg-g>
|
josephine: cajoel byron can someone double click on the video in the hangout/on air so that it resizes so people can see the bottom of the slides, please?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:21:51
|
<guillom>
|
gwicke: :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:21:56
|
<rdaiccherlb>
|
RoanKattouw they will be after the meeting
|
|
2015-06-11 18:21:59
|
<James_F>
|
RoanKattouw: Yes, after.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:00
|
<YuviPanda>
|
shoutout to AI, halfak
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:02
|
<halfak>
|
Audio is clicking for me. Anyone else?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:06
|
<harej>
|
Yup
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:06
|
<chasemp>
|
yes mucho clicking
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:07
|
<harej>
|
Just stopped
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:08
|
<ori>
|
it sounds like lila is getting a finnish massage, yes
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:09
|
<marktraceur>
|
Not gonna lie, the audio is getting a little graphic-sounding
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:12
|
<chasemp>
|
like someone smacking the mic
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:15
|
<YuviPanda>
|
it sounds like a massage
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:15
|
<halfak>
|
YuviPanda, AI! I forgot to wear my skynet shirt
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:16
|
<chasemp>
|
gone now yes
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:16
|
<qgil>
|
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WMF_Strategy_Preview,_WMF_Metrics_Meeting_June_2015.pdf
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:21
|
<legoktm>
|
is she saying Wikipedian or Wikimedian?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:23
|
<byron>
|
Muted a participant on hangout
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:24
|
<Coren>
|
Audio is going away.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:41
|
<YuviPanda>
|
legoktm: mickiweedian.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:45
|
<qgil>
|
as seen in https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WMF_Metrics_and_activities_meetings :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:48
|
<halfak>
|
Clicking has stopped
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:52
|
<James_F>
|
qgil: Ah, cool, thanks.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:53
|
<mhurd>
|
knowledge helmet?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:22:57
|
<YuviPanda>
|
clicks furiously
|
|
2015-06-11 18:23:02
|
<gnubeard>
|
mhurd: hahyaha
|
|
2015-06-11 18:23:03
|
<gnubeard>
|
!!
|
|
2015-06-11 18:23:17
|
<SMalyshev>
|
That's the new Visual Editor I imagine
|
|
2015-06-11 18:23:30
|
<foks>
|
Virtual Editor?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:23:47
|
<K4-713>
|
I wonder if there's a credit card reader in that rig.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:23:50
|
<ejegg>
|
direct neural upload
|
|
2015-06-11 18:23:51
|
<gnubeard>
|
foks: :D
|
|
2015-06-11 18:23:56
|
<byron>
|
There's a Pine W who keeps on joining and keeping their mic on...I have kicked him
|
|
2015-06-11 18:24:12
|
<Pine>
|
byron: grr, I have no mic
|
|
2015-06-11 18:24:21
|
<byron>
|
Please, watch the stream
|
|
2015-06-11 18:24:25
|
<Pine>
|
I was getting errors with hangouts
|
|
2015-06-11 18:24:30
|
<Pine>
|
yeah, going to YT
|
|
2015-06-11 18:24:51
|
<chasemp>
|
Pine: it's your laptop mic then by default most likely picking up noise
|
|
2015-06-11 18:25:00
|
<chasemp>
|
I assume you are on a speedboat or helicopter
|
|
2015-06-11 18:25:07
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
LOL
|
|
2015-06-11 18:25:13
|
<Pine>
|
No, my mic is disconnected.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:25:23
|
<Pine>
|
Anyway, back on topic
|
|
2015-06-11 18:25:36
|
<YuviPanda>
|
waoh, the digital south. not sure if that triggers the 'drink every time someone says global south' game
|
|
2015-06-11 18:25:43
|
<RoanKattouw>
|
qgil: Ooooh I see it now. I was looking there before, but it's the almost-all-black box on the right. I was looking for a word like "slides" or "presentation"
|
|
2015-06-11 18:26:21
|
<qgil>
|
I clicked without reading as well, thinking that I would find the YouTube stream. :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:26:22
|
<anomie>
|
YuviPanda: Is "digital south" the same map as https://xkcd.com/753/ ?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:26:27
|
<halfak>
|
YuviPanda, +1 for digital south == global south
|
|
2015-06-11 18:26:30
|
<YuviPanda>
|
anomie: that's *global* south
|
|
2015-06-11 18:26:45
|
<YuviPanda>
|
digital south is all the non-dominant-endians?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:26:48
|
<Deskana>
|
analogue north?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:26:52
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
Will it be harder to attract contributors when Wikipedia/Internet is something they plug into without thinking about it, like electricity? (rhetorical question).
|
|
2015-06-11 18:27:02
|
<spagewmf>
|
maps, infographics
|
|
2015-06-11 18:27:08
|
<spagewmf>
|
-> go Extension:Graph !
|
|
2015-06-11 18:27:09
|
<ori>
|
network byte order only plz
|
|
2015-06-11 18:27:18
|
<victorgrigas>
|
VIDEO
|
|
2015-06-11 18:27:20
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
+1 to maps and infographics.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:27:23
|
<marktraceur>
|
matt_flaschen: The sum of human knowledge will just be downloaded from your brain.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:27:43
|
<James_F>
|
marktraceur: Uploaded.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:27:51
|
<marktraceur>
|
That too.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:27:57
|
<qgil>
|
:DDD
|
|
2015-06-11 18:27:58
|
<James_F>
|
marktraceur: Humans are still going to be dominant, ideally.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:28:08
|
<Coren>
|
YuviPanda: The Digital south is where all the zero bits are so that the magnetic flux flows that way. :-)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:28:08
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
Depends if the brain is the client, or the server.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:28:15
|
<James_F>
|
QUite.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:28:17
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
With the Wikimedia vision, I think it's a P2P server.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:28:25
|
<marktraceur>
|
James_F: Your brain-computer implant will download your brain, and then upload it to Wikidata.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:28:40
|
<James_F>
|
marktraceur: Does that mean I'll be CC0 then?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:28:48
|
<marktraceur>
|
Yup.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:28:51
|
<James_F>
|
Gosh.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:29:06
|
<Pine>
|
uses VisualEditor to edit James_F's brain
|
|
2015-06-11 18:29:10
|
<James_F>
|
No intellectual property on your intellect.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:29:16
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
Darn it, I told them to seal the analog hole, but there are still all these insecure neurons.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:29:20
|
<James_F>
|
Pine: I'm not sure that back-end mode for Parsoid is built yet. :-)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:29:28
|
<marktraceur>
|
Hrm, "open source" might not be accurate for Wikipedia, given we allow articles that are behind paywalls to be used as sources. :P
|
|
2015-06-11 18:29:45
|
<YuviPanda>
|
I have no idea what the current slide means.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:29:54
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
'Magnified mission'?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:30:06
|
<harej>
|
thought leader! *drink*
|
|
2015-06-11 18:30:12
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
It sounds like the goal is to make us a go-to in other areas of free knowledge.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:30:23
|
<Pine>
|
Yeah, I'm lost on that slide about magnified mission.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:30:25
|
<neilpquinn>
|
And to do more than just text articles.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:30:30
|
<greg-g>
|
matt_flaschen: :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:30:35
|
<greg-g>
|
er, marktraceur
|
|
2015-06-11 18:30:35
|
<Coren>
|
James_F: Sadly, brains are compiled so can't qualify as FLOSS. Nobody knows where the source is. :-)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:30:41
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
I would be a little hesitant about expanding to new kinds of sites. Sometimes it's very successful (Wikidata), other times not so much (Wikiversity, Wikinews). We may want to double down on the existing projects.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:30:45
|
<James_F>
|
matt_flaschen: Isn't "all knowledge" already the mission? This is just saying we need to keep going.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:30:46
|
<harej>
|
marktraceur: open source requires a fully open source supply chain, doesn't it. what's the one step down where the end product is open source but not (necessarily) the supply chain?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:30:50
|
<YuviPanda>
|
I can't think of any additional questions I can answer after seeing the slide than before.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:31:03
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
James_F, yes, but that doesn't mean we're not allowed to prioritize the order.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:31:10
|
<spagewmf>
|
"clip/quality of software" ??
|
|
2015-06-11 18:31:13
|
<James_F>
|
matt_flaschen: Sure.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:31:14
|
<marktraceur>
|
harej: I mean, I would say "free", like the mission always has, but hey, who am I to argue
|
|
2015-06-11 18:31:16
|
<Coren>
|
YuviPanda: "What was on that slide?"
|
|
2015-06-11 18:31:17
|
<bd808>
|
harej: "open core" ;)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:31:30
|
<Krenair>
|
+1 from me for recognising relationship issues
|
|
2015-06-11 18:31:38
|
<jaufrecht>
|
does clip mean pace?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:31:42
|
<marktraceur>
|
Yes.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:31:42
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
Open source does not require an open source supply chain.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:31:48
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
By that definition, all of GNU/Linux is proprietary.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:31:54
|
<spagewmf>
|
jaufrecht: thanks
|
|
2015-06-11 18:32:04
|
<ebernhardson>
|
where is the source code your your i7? :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:32:05
|
<marktraceur>
|
matt_flaschen: I'm being difficult :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:32:19
|
<YuviPanda>
|
difficulttraceur
|
|
2015-06-11 18:32:45
|
<James_F>
|
markdifficult maybe.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:32:48
|
<harej>
|
matt_flaschen: indeed. Doesn't RMS use a computer from the early 90s because it was the last one with an open BIOS?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:32:52
|
<harej>
|
Or something like that?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:33:13
|
<ebernhardson>
|
harej: does RMS use a computer? last i heard he just dictates code to someone else that types it :P
|
|
2015-06-11 18:33:23
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
harej, I think I've heard that. But also, I think GNU was mostly bootstrapped on AT&T Unix, because there was no GNU (otherwise, they wouldn't need to build one).
|
|
2015-06-11 18:33:29
|
<harej>
|
I believe he *nominally* uses a computer. I don't think he uses the web, at least directly.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:33:37
|
<marktraceur>
|
ebernhardson: Ouch, harsh. I mean, there are good criticisms to make, but that's a bit far.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:33:51
|
<marktraceur>
|
harej: He uses a web browser now. Directly. He used to use email and a remote daemon.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:33:52
|
<James_F>
|
marktraceur: The bootstrapping problem is wicked.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:34:02
|
<harej>
|
Direct web browsing now! Wow!
|
|
2015-06-11 18:34:08
|
<halfak>
|
Step 1 == Turtle?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:34:16
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
+1 to 'stabilize and reinforce'.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:34:35
|
<marktraceur>
|
halfak: Hopefully it won't be turtles all the way down.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:34:37
|
<andrewbogott>
|
what does 4-6 say?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:34:47
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
There are some new features we need to build (maps!), but more we need to finish up and strengthen (VE, Flow, Graph, Wikidata, Analytics).
|
|
2015-06-11 18:34:49
|
<James_F>
|
andrewbogott: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/WMF_Strategy_Preview%2C_WMF_Metrics_Meeting_June_2015.pdf
|
|
2015-06-11 18:34:51
|
<marktraceur>
|
Nobody knows.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:34:52
|
<halfak>
|
If everything is changing, can we afford to spend 3 years focusing on stabilizing our current tech & practices?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:35:11
|
<ebernhardson>
|
marktraceur: its something he used to do :P
|
|
2015-06-11 18:35:13
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
halfak, I don't know if we can afford not to. We need a solid foundation.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:35:14
|
<James_F>
|
andrewbogott: "EXPAND content, projects, availability // MAGNIFY impact through institutional knowledge, global education, affiliates // INNOVATE new structures for knowledge, participation, community engagement"
|
|
2015-06-11 18:35:15
|
<spagewmf>
|
who are our "affiliates"? https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network ?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:35:18
|
<Pine>
|
I'd like to see UX moved up to year 1-3
|
|
2015-06-11 18:35:19
|
<ebernhardson>
|
(due to hand injury, though)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:35:20
|
<gnubeard>
|
halfak: Will must innovate, too. ;)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:35:21
|
<andrewbogott>
|
James_F: thx
|
|
2015-06-11 18:35:33
|
<harej>
|
spagewmf: I believe referring to chapters, user groups, thematic orgs, allied third parties
|
|
2015-06-11 18:35:34
|
<halfak>
|
gnubeard, indeed, I don't want to wait a year minimum
|
|
2015-06-11 18:35:35
|
<marktraceur>
|
But we definitely can't afford to do both at the same time
|
|
2015-06-11 18:35:48
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
halfak, also, 1-3 and 2-4 are interleaved
|
|
2015-06-11 18:35:51
|
<marktraceur>
|
Given the amount of insane tech debt we have
|
|
2015-06-11 18:36:04
|
<jaufrecht>
|
do both what?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:36:04
|
<whatami>
|
andrewbogott, maybe the advice for people writing slides for Metrics should include "don't put anything in the lower 20%, because nobody will be able to see it in the video."
|
|
2015-06-11 18:36:14
|
<gnubeard>
|
mark: we need stabilize and improve. Absolutely.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:36:15
|
<marktraceur>
|
jaufrecht: Solidify, and expand
|
|
2015-06-11 18:36:16
|
<andrewbogott>
|
whatami: yeah :(
|
|
2015-06-11 18:36:25
|
<qgil>
|
Ad: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/wmf-call-to-action/
|
|
2015-06-11 18:36:46
|
<gnubeard>
|
But that does not mean that we will not innovate in specific places.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:36:58
|
<Krenair>
|
spagewmf, https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates
|
|
2015-06-11 18:37:13
|
<halfak>
|
gnubeard, the idea is that we innovate in expanded places after this reinforcing period?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:37:15
|
<gnubeard>
|
Experimentation will be important to identify the right innovation.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:37:42
|
<gnubeard>
|
halfak: Yes, but I also think we will be innovating in expanding places as we go. We gotta keep adapting.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:38:01
|
<halfak>
|
IMO, experimentation is one of our most broken processes needing reinforcement and support.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:38:02
|
<marktraceur>
|
So really, we're doing all the things?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:38:06
|
<spagewmf>
|
Krenair, harej : or even https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_affiliation_models
|
|
2015-06-11 18:38:17
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
halfak, agreed.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:38:19
|
<harej>
|
Meta is disorganized. What else is new?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:38:28
|
<jaufrecht>
|
what specifically are we _not_ going to do in years 1-3?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:38:37
|
<gnubeard>
|
Stabilization is key. We need to strenthen and stabilize how we interact with our communities, how we produce software, and we need clear roadmaps with a cohesive vision based on the room Lila is giving us here today.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:38:37
|
<halfak>
|
^ good Q
|
|
2015-06-11 18:38:39
|
<guillom>
|
jaufrecht: +1
|
|
2015-06-11 18:38:44
|
<halfak>
|
jaufrecht, +1
|
|
2015-06-11 18:38:45
|
<YuviPanda>
|
jaufrecht: +1
|
|
2015-06-11 18:38:58
|
<marktraceur>
|
+2 lgtm
|
|
2015-06-11 18:39:01
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
jaufrecht, I don't see new features listed on that slide.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:39:10
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
Unless 'removing UX barriers' is interpreted over-broadly.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:39:11
|
<marktraceur>
|
<jenkins-bot> V+2
|
|
2015-06-11 18:39:47
|
<James_F>
|
Questions? (Beyond the ones I have from matt_flaschen, halfak and jaufrecht)?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:40:06
|
<chasemp>
|
an example specifically of strengthen initiative?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:40:10
|
<halfak>
|
Thanks for being so observant James_F :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:40:19
|
<halfak>
|
neglects to ping
|
|
2015-06-11 18:40:25
|
<halfak>
|
and feels bad
|
|
2015-06-11 18:40:39
|
<Pine>
|
James_F: Can someone describe the connections between the CTA, annual plans, and the strategy?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:40:45
|
<Krenair>
|
I'd like to know details of the strategy with respect to MediaWiki, and if anything - how they might affect non-WMF users of MediaWiki
|
|
2015-06-11 18:40:51
|
<greg-g>
|
Pine++
|
|
2015-06-11 18:40:59
|
<greg-g>
|
I like connections
|
|
2015-06-11 18:41:00
|
<harej>
|
"Innovation" -- there's different types of it. There is innovating in coming up with a better structure than our current structure. There is innovating in coming up with brand new products.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:41:04
|
<James_F>
|
halfak: Of course.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:41:24
|
<heatherw>
|
Electricity has a very controlled infrastructure
|
|
2015-06-11 18:41:24
|
<victorgrigas>
|
Question - How would we plan do do things around Video? I know that .mp4 has been an issue due to royalties and patents, thus hindering conversion.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:41:24
|
<qgil>
|
chasemp, JUST IN CASE IT HELPS: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T101100
|
|
2015-06-11 18:41:25
|
<qgil>
|
oopps caps
|
|
2015-06-11 18:41:29
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
That was rhetorical, but okay. :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:41:34
|
<YuviPanda>
|
qgil: that's a cool Task number
|
|
2015-06-11 18:41:42
|
<qgil>
|
binary task, I call it
|
|
2015-06-11 18:41:56
|
<jaufrecht>
|
T44?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:42:09
|
<chasemp>
|
it's a good response qgil for sure
|
|
2015-06-11 18:42:23
|
<chasemp>
|
for engineering could strengthen be taken as "reduce tech debt" :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:42:49
|
<qgil>
|
"STRENGTHEN: improve technology & execution" https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T98348
|
|
2015-06-11 18:43:13
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
victorgrigas, MP4 discussion was resolved against (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Requests_for_comment/MP4_Video). I think we have to use open standards, *especially* if we really want this massive role in the ecosystem some of the slides suggested.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:43:14
|
<Coren>
|
Lila: "like electricity". You mean "most the the world doesn't actually have access to it?"
|
|
2015-06-11 18:43:28
|
<James_F>
|
Krenair: The answer to your question is "that's Damon's sub-strategy", I imagine.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:43:31
|
<Coren>
|
(vide https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skCBCYArUaA&feature=youtu.be)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:43:36
|
<Coren>
|
Err, bad link
|
|
2015-06-11 18:43:40
|
<Coren>
|
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.ELC.ACCS.ZS
|
|
2015-06-11 18:43:45
|
<marktraceur>
|
Coren: Just don't say "Global South"
|
|
2015-06-11 18:43:50
|
<Krenair>
|
James_F, okay, that makes sense.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:44:01
|
<James_F>
|
Krenair: But yeah, I want to know too.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:44:08
|
<marxarelli>
|
James_F: the reorg seemed to largely focus on our established communities of editors over emerging communities, and i saw mention of "integration with [academic] curricula." when in the timeline should we expect a *well funded* that can facilitate outreach and collaborate among academics, educators, and students
|
|
2015-06-11 18:44:11
|
<James_F>
|
(Sorry, was asking questions so couldn't respond here.)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:44:14
|
<James_F>
|
marxarelli: Thanks.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:44:35
|
<James_F>
|
marxarelli: A well funded… something?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:44:39
|
<gnubeard>
|
Krenair: I think that is up to those who run the Mediawiki project, the drivers and contributors. :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:44:44
|
<marxarelli>
|
James_F: correction: *well funded* Education Program
|
|
2015-06-11 18:44:48
|
<YuviPanda>
|
James_F: "how should this change how I think about my work today?"
|
|
2015-06-11 18:44:48
|
<James_F>
|
marxarelli: Aha, OK.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:45:00
|
<greg-g>
|
what was the example system we shouldn't build right there?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:45:12
|
<Krenair>
|
gnubeard, I think that answers my question then. Thank you
|
|
2015-06-11 18:45:29
|
<victorgrigas>
|
@James_F Question - How would we plan do do things around Video? I know that .mp4 has been an issue due to royalties and patents, thus hindering conversion.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:45:33
|
<marxarelli>
|
James_F: another correction :) outreach and *collaboration* among ...
|
|
2015-06-11 18:45:41
|
<SMalyshev>
|
Coren: that link says 83.1% does have access or I miss something?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:45:46
|
<marxarelli>
|
thanks!
|
|
2015-06-11 18:46:21
|
<gnubeard>
|
Krenair: We will continue to support Mediawiki. No question there. However, directly influencing Mediawiki to support only our interests is not something I intend to do in any way.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:46:31
|
<Coren>
|
SMalyshev: "Most" was an overstatement, I note the numbers have gone up a lot (though I don't believe the number from the PRC); but even India has several 100s of million of people without according to it.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:46:38
|
<James_F>
|
victorgrigas: It's in the list.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:46:57
|
<Krenair>
|
perfect, thanks!
|
|
2015-06-11 18:46:58
|
<gnubeard>
|
Krenair: (whatever ‘our interests’ are there… I don’t know what they could possibly be as we are here for the mission).
|
|
2015-06-11 18:46:58
|
<James_F>
|
Next up is jaufrecht then Pine then victorgrigas then marxarelli then an anon one then YuviPanda.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:47:07
|
<YuviPanda>
|
thanks James_F
|
|
2015-06-11 18:47:17
|
<victorgrigas>
|
Thanks James
|
|
2015-06-11 18:47:42
|
<SMalyshev>
|
Coren: yeah of cource PRC + India skew the numbers a lot... but that's what the world bank says... I'd love to look at better numbers esp. for places like PRC but they may just not exist
|
|
2015-06-11 18:47:42
|
<guillom>
|
This sounds like "Narrowing Focus".
|
|
2015-06-11 18:47:52
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
marxarelli, and how does that relate to the separate Wiki Education Foundation.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:47:52
|
<James_F>
|
marxarelli: (I imagine, much as for Krenair, that the answer will be 'that's the job of Luis's sub-strategy')
|
|
2015-06-11 18:48:06
|
<halfak>
|
guillom, I agree
|
|
2015-06-11 18:48:15
|
<Pine>
|
gets a headache every time he's reminded of "Narrowing Focus"
|
|
2015-06-11 18:48:30
|
<subbu>
|
guillom, yes it does now that you said that.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:48:43
|
<J-Mo>
|
Pine ;)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:48:44
|
<YuviPanda>
|
'service for this' in the sense of just call out to an external service?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:48:47
|
<Krenair>
|
gnubeard, well, things come up from time to time that might benefit wikimedia but could be argued as unfair towards/to the detriment of other users.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:48:59
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
Will the services we adopt be 100% FOSS?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:49:06
|
<cscott>
|
i think the only way we can really narrow focus is to have a bigger more robust volunteer organization.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:49:18
|
<K4-713>
|
Hmm. We do know that stopping projects (and the support for those projects) is also work, right?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:49:29
|
<K4-713>
|
It's not like we just start ignoring things.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:49:40
|
<cscott>
|
K4-713: well, in some cases we do.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:49:45
|
<K4-713>
|
makes a face
|
|
2015-06-11 18:49:50
|
<gwicke>
|
cscott: and enable them to move independently by giving them the APIs & data access they need
|
|
2015-06-11 18:49:54
|
<YuviPanda>
|
we kind of already do that, no?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:50:00
|
<K4-713>
|
Okay, stopping work _properly_ is also work.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:50:09
|
<cscott>
|
YuviPanda: yes, but not in a formal way.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:50:23
|
<YuviPanda>
|
true, but that's practically what seems to happen.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:50:41
|
<K4-713>
|
Particularly when you're talking about, oh, shrinking code.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:50:45
|
<cscott>
|
case in point, our pdf backend was created in collaboration with pediapress, and for a long time pediapress was the primary maintainer.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:51:09
|
<cscott>
|
when we suggested that we might turn it off, the readers revolted. but pediapress has faded away.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:51:09
|
<YuviPanda>
|
HHVM, ULS, Echo...
|
|
2015-06-11 18:51:18
|
<cscott>
|
so we sort of picked up maintainership (or at least i did)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:51:36
|
<harej>
|
+1 james_f question laundering
|
|
2015-06-11 18:51:40
|
<James_F>
|
:-)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:51:50
|
<mhurd>
|
niedzielski: dbrant: mdholloway: bearND: so https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/216869/ broke the iOS app edit pencil layout. any reason why i wasn't tagged on this patch?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:51:51
|
<marxarelli>
|
James_F: it just sounds more tactful coming from an Englishman :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:51:57
|
<James_F>
|
marxarelli: To you.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:52:02
|
<marxarelli>
|
haha
|
|
2015-06-11 18:52:12
|
<mhurd>
|
oops wrong channel :(
|
|
2015-06-11 18:52:14
|
<heatherw>
|
cscott: Pedipress is still linked, what happens if you send something to it?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:52:21
|
<halfak>
|
mhurd, lol
|
|
2015-06-11 18:52:26
|
<Deskana>
|
marxarelli: Clearly I should ask questions in my Northern English accent so that people are a bit more on edge.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:52:31
|
<marktraceur>
|
So use the most offensive cockney accent you can come out with for marxarelli's question, James_F
|
|
2015-06-11 18:52:31
|
<niedzielski>
|
mhurd: that was my fault. i didn't know better
|
|
2015-06-11 18:52:44
|
<James_F>
|
Cor blimey.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:52:51
|
<JohanJ>
|
mhurd: but perfect timing for posting something in this channel by mistake.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:53:02
|
<gnubeard>
|
Krenair: I believe we should enable our projects to make those decisions for themselves. As part of the project, wmf managers do not have unilateral decision making power in an open source project, and they shouldn’t.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:53:06
|
<James_F>
|
JohanJ: :-)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:53:14
|
<mhurd>
|
lol
|
|
2015-06-11 18:54:18
|
<Pine>
|
YuviPanda: I <3 Echo.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:54:19
|
<victorgrigas>
|
+1 Adam
|
|
2015-06-11 18:54:19
|
<YuviPanda>
|
Pine: indeed, but I don't think anyone's actively working on it
|
|
2015-06-11 18:54:19
|
<Pine>
|
I know :(
|
|
2015-06-11 18:54:19
|
<legoktm>
|
+1 awight
|
|
2015-06-11 18:54:19
|
<victorgrigas>
|
I think we shoudl make a Quora competitor using flow. Quora is only in English.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:54:22
|
<James_F>
|
YuviPanda: legoktm is.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:54:25
|
<ebernhardson>
|
YuviPanda: not actively adding features, but any serious bugs get fixed
|
|
2015-06-11 18:54:37
|
<YuviPanda>
|
James_F: legoktm is also working on 400 other things :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:54:38
|
<legoktm>
|
yes hello
|
|
2015-06-11 18:54:43
|
<halfak>
|
victorgrigas, +1
|
|
2015-06-11 18:54:45
|
<ebernhardson>
|
YuviPanda: the whole idea from the start was that echo was a platform, and notifications/etc were supposed to be implemented in other extensions
|
|
2015-06-11 18:54:48
|
<James_F>
|
YuviPanda: So stop delaying him. ;-)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:54:52
|
<marktraceur>
|
victorgrigas: Eloquence hasn't started a doomed wiki in a few years, right? :P
|
|
2015-06-11 18:54:58
|
<Pine>
|
Echo has become practically indispensable to my workflow and I think others on ENWP would say the same.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:55:00
|
<halfak>
|
victorgrigas, We could win quite easily by *not* requiring people to register an account.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:55:12
|
<YuviPanda>
|
halfak: don't tell the old mobile team.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:55:38
|
<the-wub>
|
awight|metrix: good point about NPOV. we've already taken on wikivoyage, which isn't NPOV in the way our projects have traditionally been
|
|
2015-06-11 18:55:46
|
<cscott>
|
James_F: +1
|
|
2015-06-11 18:55:47
|
<the-wub>
|
I'd be happy to see more projects like that
|
|
2015-06-11 18:55:49
|
<James_F>
|
Pine: But I thought there was consensus that everything WMF did was terrible for enwiki? ;-)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:56:09
|
<Pine>
|
James_F: only if it hasn't been approved by me first.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:56:15
|
<James_F>
|
grins.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:56:31
|
<Pine>
|
We like Echo and we increasingly like VE.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:56:38
|
<harej>
|
Commons is fundamentally not NPOV. Wikiversity isn't NPOV either.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:56:44
|
<guillom>
|
Pine: Is that a royal we? :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:56:58
|
<harej>
|
James_F: don't forget WMF is also the "English Wikipedia Foundation"
|
|
2015-06-11 18:57:09
|
<marxarelli>
|
thanks, James_F
|
|
2015-06-11 18:57:12
|
<James_F>
|
harej: Except for people on the English Wikipedia, yes.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:57:17
|
<guillom>
|
harej: Wikisource's content isn't NPOV either.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:57:26
|
<Pine>
|
guillom: I like to think that my roots go deep into the community so I have a good sense of consensus.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:57:34
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
When NPOV should be use is complicated. But there are a lot of benefit to scoping a project with NPOV. Describe the world as it is.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:57:41
|
<halfak>
|
Pine's methodology is sketchy
|
|
2015-06-11 18:57:42
|
<Pine>
|
I don't usually use "we" unless my confidence is pretty high
|
|
2015-06-11 18:57:53
|
<halfak>
|
:P
|
|
2015-06-11 18:57:56
|
<Deskana>
|
There is no "community". There are many communities.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:58:02
|
<foks>
|
^
|
|
2015-06-11 18:58:02
|
<Deskana>
|
That's always bugged me.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:58:03
|
<James_F>
|
victorgrigas, YuviPanda: Sorry, didn't have time to ask your questions. :-( Also matt_flaschen, spagewmf and jaufrecht's questions from the earlier session.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:58:04
|
<Pine>
|
halfak: <cn>
|
|
2015-06-11 18:58:14
|
<Coren>
|
guillom: No, but wikisource is perfect NPOV in principle as it generates no editorial content; it transcribes verbatim.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:58:14
|
<Pine>
|
er {{cn}}
|
|
2015-06-11 18:58:19
|
<harej>
|
Pine, I've been editing for over ten years and I still feel like my roots in the community are tenuous, since I can only participate in so many corners at once.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:58:24
|
<halfak>
|
Pine, I don't get it. I need to cite my skepticism?
|
|
2015-06-11 18:58:40
|
<Pine>
|
harej: Echo and watchlists are helpful for this kind of thing :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:58:44
|
<subbu>
|
Deskana, +1 reg. community
|
|
2015-06-11 18:58:44
|
<guillom>
|
Coren: Agreed; the process is NPOV, the content isn't. And it's never been a problem :)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:58:45
|
<Pine>
|
halfak: yes
|
|
2015-06-11 18:58:49
|
<Pine>
|
;)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:58:53
|
<harej>
|
Not at the scale of "all of Wikipedia," much less "all of English Wikipedia"
|
|
2015-06-11 18:59:22
|
<Deskana>
|
A corollary of there being no single community is that "Trying to keep the community happy" is impossible.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:59:31
|
<Pine>
|
harej: I can't watch everything either, of course, but I keep track of how WMF products are received by the community in multiple ways
|
|
2015-06-11 18:59:37
|
<Deskana>
|
Let's be clear about that.
|
|
2015-06-11 18:59:42
|
<Coren>
|
guillom: Even the content *can* be in principle - "all the books". :-)
|
|
2015-06-11 18:59:57
|
<halfak>
|
Deskana, "community member" gets me too.
|
|
2015-06-11 19:00:03
|
<halfak>
|
I am a "community member"
|
|
2015-06-11 19:00:08
|
<spagewmf>
|
James_F well done, but matt_flaschen's question should have used Movie Trailer voice. "IN A WORLD where Wikipedia/Internet is like electricity, one man tried to make contributions survive"
|
|
2015-06-11 19:00:09
|
<halfak>
|
And it's good to think that way.
|
|
2015-06-11 19:00:09
|
<James_F>
|
Thanks everyone.
|
|
2015-06-11 19:00:13
|
<guillom>
|
Coren: Alright, I'll give you that one :)
|
|
2015-06-11 19:00:19
|
<James_F>
|
spagewmf: I can do that voice too.
|
|
2015-06-11 19:00:30
|
<Coren>
|
There are a number of Mediawiki-related communities I am a part of. None of them agree on... well, anything. :-)
|
|
2015-06-11 19:00:37
|
<James_F>
|
waves.
|
|
2015-06-11 19:00:42
|
<halfak>
|
o/
|
|
2015-06-11 19:00:48
|
<spagewmf>
|
o/
|
|
2015-06-11 19:00:58
|
<spagewmf>
|
who's doing "We will create a central, multilingual hub for community support" ?
|
|
2015-06-11 19:01:15
|
<harej>
|
meta!!!
|
|
2015-06-11 19:01:18
|
<Pine>
|
spagewmf: I believe that's on Luis' task list this year
|
|
2015-06-11 19:02:02
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
Is there a reason the video is unlisted?
|
|
2015-06-11 19:02:38
|
<Pine>
|
matt_flaschen: this meeting's video on YT?
|
|
2015-06-11 19:02:49
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
Pine, yeah.
|
|
2015-06-11 19:02:56
|
<Pine>
|
It should be public AFAIK.
|
|
2015-06-11 19:02:59
|
<Pine>
|
cajoel: ^
|
|
2015-06-12 16:32:12
|
<mdholloway>
|
YuviPanda: hey, do we have any of those free IRCCloud accounts left? I think I remember Monte saying you're the person to talk to about it
|
|
2015-06-12 16:32:36
|
<YuviPanda>
|
mdholloway: totally! send me an email and I'll sort it out for ya
|
|
2015-06-12 16:32:46
|
<mdholloway>
|
YuviPanda: sweet, thanks!
|
|
2015-06-12 16:45:18
|
<mholloway>
|
msg NickServ identify dostidostipanic
|
|
2015-06-12 16:45:43
|
<comets>
|
O_O
|
|
2015-06-12 16:46:37
|
<comets>
|
u shuld change ur IRC password Guest50824
|
|
2015-06-15 17:57:16
|
<thcipriani>
|
#startmeeting Deployment Systems Weekly Triage
|
|
2015-06-15 17:57:16
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting started Mon Jun 15 17:57:16 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is thcipriani. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
|
|
2015-06-15 17:57:16
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
|
|
2015-06-15 17:57:16
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
The meeting name has been set to 'deployment_systems_weekly_triage'
|
|
2015-06-15 17:57:29
|
<thcipriani>
|
#link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Deployment_tooling/Meetings/2015-06-08/Minutes Last triage
|
|
2015-06-15 17:57:43
|
<thcipriani>
|
#link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Deployment_tooling/Meetings/2015-06-15 Agenda
|
|
2015-06-15 17:57:51
|
<thcipriani>
|
#info most discussion happens via hangout
|
|
2015-06-15 17:59:33
|
<thcipriani>
|
#info moving https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T101935 to in-progress.
|
|
2015-06-15 18:04:08
|
<thcipriani>
|
#info stalled https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T98834
|
|
2015-06-15 18:05:28
|
<thcipriani>
|
#info merging definition task https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T101024 and https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T101022 into https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T101023
|
|
2015-06-15 18:06:55
|
<twentyafterfour>
|
#info T98834 - Use subrepos instead of git submodules for deployed MediaWiki extensions - this is on hold until next quarter
|
|
2015-06-15 18:07:26
|
<twentyafterfour>
|
#info T101935 - make-wmf-branch should support resuming - this is going to happen this week I hope
|
|
2015-06-15 18:09:13
|
<thcipriani>
|
#info T78411 - moving to backlog https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T78411
|
|
2015-06-15 18:12:51
|
<thcipriani>
|
#info https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T91074 hackathon project that didn't actually happen. Closing.
|
|
2015-06-15 18:13:39
|
<twentyafterfour>
|
#info T100575 - scap only one version - declined because it is unlikely to happen before scap is essentially replaced by our new tool (coming soon, I swear)
|
|
2015-06-15 18:14:13
|
<legoktm>
|
twentyafterfour: can we not close valid bugs until the "new tool" actually replaces it?
|
|
2015-06-15 18:15:18
|
<twentyafterfour>
|
legoktm: it's a feature request that realistically won't happen any time soon. but we can keep it if you like, we are just trying to clean up the workboard on deployment-systems
|
|
2015-06-15 18:15:34
|
<legoktm>
|
twentyafterfour: if that's the case, just mark it as lowest priority
|
|
2015-06-15 18:15:46
|
<twentyafterfour>
|
that doesn't get it off our backlog ;)
|
|
2015-06-15 18:16:14
|
<legoktm>
|
sure but declining tasks because something might hypothetically replace it isn't a good idea
|
|
2015-06-15 18:18:26
|
<thcipriani>
|
#info create new column for valid bugs for future old tooling
|
|
2015-06-15 18:18:35
|
<thcipriani>
|
yes, future, old tooling.
|
|
2015-06-15 18:25:10
|
<legoktm>
|
;)
|
|
2015-06-15 18:25:22
|
<thcipriani>
|
#info https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T67549 in progress
|
|
2015-06-15 18:36:55
|
<thcipriani>
|
#info https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T99776 to in progress
|
|
2015-06-15 18:42:14
|
<thcipriani>
|
#info https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T75939 in progress
|
|
2015-06-15 18:43:59
|
<thcipriani>
|
#endmeeting
|
|
2015-06-15 18:43:59
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting ended Mon Jun 15 18:43:59 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
|
|
2015-06-15 18:43:59
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-15-17.57.html
|
|
2015-06-15 18:44:00
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (text): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-15-17.57.txt
|
|
2015-06-15 18:44:00
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (wiki): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-15-17.57.wiki
|
|
2015-06-15 18:44:00
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Log: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-15-17.57.log.html
|
|
2015-06-15 19:07:15
|
<spagewmf>
|
http://unicorn.wmflabs.org/winter/ has Search at the top with "Search over four million articles" as the placeholder
|
|
2015-06-15 19:22:16
|
<guillom>
|
The \{@} is probably spammers, trying to collect email addresses that use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:No_spam
|
|
2015-06-15 19:23:36
|
<jhobs>
|
we've lost slides on the YouTube link btw
|
|
2015-06-15 19:23:55
|
<jhobs>
|
not sure whether -office or -staff is the proper channel
|
|
2015-06-15 19:24:54
|
<guillom>
|
cringes because of the chart axis not starting at 0 :p
|
|
2015-06-15 19:27:35
|
<ebernhardson>
|
opensearch is backed by cirrus as well, but as a fallback searchBackend
|
|
2015-06-15 19:28:03
|
<ebernhardson>
|
also the autocomplete for the top right corner is opensearch
|
|
2015-06-15 19:28:36
|
<greg-g>
|
still no slides on the hangout?
|
|
2015-06-15 19:28:46
|
<spagewmf>
|
ebernhardson: what do you mean "fallback"? On Wikimedia sites do all OpenSearch queries go to CirrusSearch?
|
|
2015-06-15 19:29:11
|
<ebernhardson>
|
spagewmf: a significant percentage go to cirrus, but there is some logic that runs before it gets to cirrus (such as direct matches)
|
|
2015-06-15 19:35:56
|
<guillom>
|
Structured data!
|
|
2015-06-15 19:36:17
|
<ebernhardson>
|
guillom: wikidata query service is progressing
|
|
2015-06-15 19:36:20
|
<earldouglas>
|
guillom: see also: Wikidata Query Service
|
|
2015-06-15 19:36:26
|
<earldouglas>
|
D'oh, you beat me to it.
|
|
2015-06-15 19:36:36
|
<guillom>
|
Yes, but: Structured data on Commons :)
|
|
2015-06-15 19:36:57
|
<Keegan>
|
{{on hold}}
|
|
2015-06-15 19:38:04
|
<spagewmf>
|
BTW, desktop users can see lead image in search drop-down results on the mobile site https://en.m.wikipedia.org or by adding on ?useskin=minerva
|
|
2015-06-15 19:41:37
|
<spagewmf>
|
wow %$#! , italian search page is crazy! https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciale:Ricerca?go=Vai&search=spagetti
|
|
2015-06-15 19:42:13
|
<earldouglas>
|
That's a spicy search result!
|
|
2015-06-15 19:45:48
|
<spagewmf>
|
Wikidata search results at the bottom, other it wiki results on the side.
|
|
2015-06-15 19:46:02
|
<spagewmf>
|
https://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Speciale%3ARicerca&profile=default&search=%2Bspaghetti&fulltext=Search&uselang=en
|
|
2015-06-15 21:32:28
|
<earldouglas>
|
Where's a good channel to broadcast this? https://blog.lastpass.com/2015/06/lastpass-security-notice.html/
|
|
2015-06-15 21:43:40
|
<rfarrand>
|
Tech Talk: "Kanban: An alternative to Scrum?" starting in 15 min, youtube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT8cUtMTGPI
|
|
2015-06-15 21:56:29
|
<rfarrand>
|
this tech talk is starting in about 5 min
|
|
2015-06-15 22:00:46
|
<rfarrand>
|
starting in 2 min
|
|
2015-06-15 22:02:57
|
<rfarrand>
|
we are live
|
|
2015-06-15 22:03:23
|
<rfarrand>
|
any questions ping me here and I can ask as we go :)
|
|
2015-06-15 22:03:53
|
<rfarrand>
|
kristenlans: is the sound OK?
|
|
2015-06-15 22:04:03
|
<rfarrand>
|
awjr too ^ :)
|
|
2015-06-15 22:04:27
|
<kristenlans>
|
I cn't see the slides rfarrand. Can you awjr?
|
|
2015-06-15 22:04:31
|
<awjr>
|
thanks rfarrand :) sounds good
|
|
2015-06-15 22:04:37
|
<awjr>
|
i can see the slides kristenlans
|
|
2015-06-15 22:04:50
|
<kristenlans>
|
hmm, might be a personl problem ;P
|
|
2015-06-15 22:04:57
|
<rfarrand>
|
kristenlans: click on Kevin in the hangout
|
|
2015-06-15 22:05:06
|
<earldouglas>
|
Re: previous slide: What is a recommend source for futher reading?
|
|
2015-06-15 22:05:06
|
<awjr>
|
kristenlans: if you click on kevin's thing in the hangout, it should make them appear
|
|
2015-06-15 22:05:26
|
<rfarrand>
|
earldouglas: will ask
|
|
2015-06-15 22:05:36
|
<awjr>
|
kristenlans: did that work
|
|
2015-06-15 22:05:37
|
<awjr>
|
?
|
|
2015-06-15 22:05:50
|
<kristenlans>
|
nope, maybe a bandwidth thing for me?
|
|
2015-06-15 22:05:59
|
<awjr>
|
:(
|
|
2015-06-15 22:06:15
|
<awjr>
|
kristenlans: what does kevin's avatar look like for you?
|
|
2015-06-15 22:06:22
|
<rfarrand>
|
kristenlans: you can follow along on youtube then
|
|
2015-06-15 22:07:20
|
<kristenlans>
|
awjr When I am NOT clicked on him, I see a preview of the slides in his square. When I click on him I see the generic blue guy. [shrug]
|
|
2015-06-15 22:07:33
|
<awjr>
|
aww jeez
|
|
2015-06-15 22:08:59
|
<rfarrand>
|
kristenlans: refresh?
|
|
2015-06-15 22:10:32
|
<rfarrand>
|
kristenlans: mute please :)
|
|
2015-06-15 22:10:48
|
<kristenlans>
|
oops lol
|
|
2015-06-15 22:10:54
|
<rfarrand>
|
better?
|
|
2015-06-15 22:11:24
|
<kristenlans>
|
rfarrand: nope, so strange! Think I'll hop on the stream as you suggested.
|
|
2015-06-15 22:14:33
|
<jaufrecht>
|
can see the Youtube stream fine, but can't join the Hangout. I see "you are the first one here."
|
|
2015-06-15 22:15:13
|
<jaufrecht>
|
where is the best (i.e., correct) hangout link?
|
|
2015-06-15 22:16:28
|
<rfarrand>
|
one moment jaufrecht :)
|
|
2015-06-15 22:19:29
|
<kristenlans>
|
I love "stop starting and start finishing".
|
|
2015-06-15 22:30:55
|
<rfarrand>
|
you are a scrum but
|
|
2015-06-15 22:35:03
|
<awjr>
|
lulz
|
|
2015-06-15 22:36:32
|
<rfarrand>
|
anyone on IRC have questions for Kevin?
|
|
2015-06-15 22:37:18
|
<awjr>
|
who is sitting to Kevin's right? they are off-camera
|
|
2015-06-15 22:37:23
|
<awjr>
|
andi dont recognize the voice
|
|
2015-06-15 22:38:21
|
<rfarrand>
|
awjr Neil Q
|
|
2015-06-15 22:38:28
|
<awjr>
|
ah! thanks rfarrand
|
|
2015-06-15 22:38:59
|
<earldouglas>
|
Captain Kirk practices Khan!ban.
|
|
2015-06-15 22:39:20
|
<awjr>
|
roflmaobbq
|
|
2015-06-15 22:39:50
|
<rfarrand>
|
<:)
|
|
2015-06-15 22:40:03
|
<rfarrand>
|
no Q's from IRC!?
|
|
2015-06-15 22:40:12
|
<rfarrand>
|
you cant let the SFpeople have all the fun
|
|
2015-06-15 22:40:29
|
<awjr>
|
i've got one
|
|
2015-06-15 22:40:37
|
<rfarrand>
|
you can just uunmute
|
|
2015-06-15 22:40:40
|
<awjr>
|
how do you recommend managing continual improvement on a kanban team?
|
|
2015-06-15 22:41:04
|
<rfarrand>
|
awjr: hehe sorry :)
|
|
2015-06-15 22:41:27
|
<awjr>
|
rfarrand: np i couldn't find all my unmute buttons :p
|
|
2015-06-15 22:43:44
|
<rfarrand>
|
awjr: mute :)
|
|
2015-06-15 22:43:55
|
<rfarrand>
|
ty
|
|
2015-06-15 22:44:00
|
<awjr>
|
:D
|
|
2015-06-15 22:50:24
|
<awjr>
|
claps
|
|
2015-06-15 22:51:35
|
<rfarrand>
|
Thanks everyone!
|
|
2015-06-15 22:51:37
|
<rfarrand>
|
off air
|
|
2015-06-15 22:53:07
|
<earldouglas>
|
http://cdn.meme.am/instances2/500x/278446.jpg
|
|
2015-06-16 14:00:06
|
<hashar>
|
CI weekly triage at https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/wikimedia.org/ci-weekly?authuser=1
|
|
2015-06-16 14:00:13
|
<hashar>
|
#startmeeting CI weekly triage
|
|
2015-06-16 14:00:13
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting started Tue Jun 16 14:00:13 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is hashar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
|
|
2015-06-16 14:00:13
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
|
|
2015-06-16 14:00:13
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
The meeting name has been set to 'ci_weekly_triage'
|
|
2015-06-16 14:00:27
|
<hashar>
|
addshore: zeljkof-lunch jzerebecki legoktm Krinkle_ CI weekly triage at https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/wikimedia.org/ci-weekly?authuser=1 :-D
|
|
2015-06-16 14:00:46
|
<addshore>
|
ohia
|
|
2015-06-16 14:00:48
|
<addshore>
|
\o
|
|
2015-06-16 14:01:49
|
<jzerebecki>
|
o/
|
|
2015-06-16 14:03:22
|
<zeljkof>
|
o/
|
|
2015-06-16 14:03:40
|
<hashar>
|
addshore: I have accepted the invitation in hangout
|
|
2015-06-16 14:03:55
|
<hashar>
|
addshore: can you join in ?
|
|
2015-06-16 14:05:07
|
<addshore>
|
=]
|
|
2015-06-16 14:05:11
|
<hashar>
|
#topic WikidataQuality
|
|
2015-06-16 14:06:23
|
<hashar>
|
#info had an issue with a leftover composer.lock file around. Some tests are still broken
|
|
2015-06-16 14:07:02
|
<hashar>
|
#info WikibaseQuality or WikidataQuality ? :-D
|
|
2015-06-16 14:08:11
|
<hashar>
|
#info Cant really rename repos in Gerrit. Can revert the name change or create a new Gerrit repo. Up to WMDE folks :-}
|
|
2015-06-16 14:08:56
|
<hashar>
|
#topic Past meeting
|
|
2015-06-16 14:09:00
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Continuous_integration/Meetings/2015-06-09/Minutes Past minutes
|
|
2015-06-16 14:09:13
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Continuous_integration/Meetings/2015-06-16 Agenda
|
|
2015-06-16 14:09:20
|
<hashar>
|
#topic Actions retrospective
|
|
2015-06-16 14:09:58
|
<hashar>
|
#info https://issues.jenkins-ci.org/browse/JENKINS-25412 jsch upgrade for Jenkins, was already filled
|
|
2015-06-16 14:10:33
|
<hashar>
|
#info https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T98976 deadlock in IRC plugin, filled upstream as https://issues.jenkins-ci.org/browse/JENKINS-28175?focusedCommentId=229859&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-229859
|
|
2015-06-16 14:10:43
|
<hashar>
|
#info to write down the composer / vendor strategy for CI / Beta / production. With jzerebecki as a reviewer.
|
|
2015-06-16 14:13:44
|
<hashar>
|
#topic Dependencies management for mw
|
|
2015-06-16 14:13:56
|
<hashar>
|
#info Antoine shared the link to a draft document on google doc
|
|
2015-06-16 14:25:35
|
<hashar>
|
#info Reviewing huge composer updates to mediawiki/vendor is going to be a challenge for reviewers
|
|
2015-06-16 15:02:48
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
hashar: please finish the meeting on time, the next one is starting now :)
|
|
2015-06-16 15:02:54
|
<hashar>
|
sure thing
|
|
2015-06-16 15:03:03
|
<hashar>
|
(discussion continuing over hangout)
|
|
2015-06-16 15:03:06
|
<hashar>
|
#endmeeting
|
|
2015-06-16 15:03:06
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting ended Tue Jun 16 15:03:06 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
|
|
2015-06-16 15:03:06
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-16-14.00.html
|
|
2015-06-16 15:03:06
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (text): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-16-14.00.txt
|
|
2015-06-16 15:03:06
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (wiki): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-16-14.00.wiki
|
|
2015-06-16 15:03:07
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Log: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-16-14.00.log.html
|
|
2015-06-16 15:03:08
|
<hashar>
|
zeljkof-meeting: go go go
|
|
2015-06-16 15:03:23
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
hashar: thanks
|
|
2015-06-16 15:05:27
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#startmeeting
|
|
2015-06-16 15:05:29
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
zeljkof-meeting: Error: A meeting name is required, e.g., '#startmeeting Marketing Committee'
|
|
2015-06-16 15:05:45
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#startmeeting Triage: Browser tests
|
|
2015-06-16 15:05:45
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting started Tue Jun 16 15:05:45 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is zeljkof-meeting. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
|
|
2015-06-16 15:05:45
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
|
|
2015-06-16 15:05:45
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
The meeting name has been set to 'triage__browser_tests'
|
|
2015-06-16 15:06:33
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#topic existing meeting documentation
|
|
2015-06-16 15:06:45
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#link meeting home page https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Quality_Assurance/Browser_testing/Meetings
|
|
2015-06-16 15:07:26
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#link notes for this meeting https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Quality_Assurance/Browser_testing/Meetings/Notes
|
|
2015-06-16 15:08:08
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#link notes from the last meeting https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Quality_Assurance/Browser_testing/Meetings/2015-06-09
|
|
2015-06-16 15:10:20
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#action meeting landing page should have links to this irc channel and hangout
|
|
2015-06-16 15:10:42
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#link the board we are triaging https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/browser-tests/
|
|
2015-06-16 15:11:21
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#topic triage tasks that are listed at meeting notes page
|
|
2015-06-16 15:11:27
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Quality_Assurance/Browser_testing/Meetings/Notes
|
|
2015-06-16 15:11:54
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
triaging T102458
|
|
2015-06-16 15:17:04
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
assigned T102458 to marxarelli and moved it to doing column
|
|
2015-06-16 15:21:16
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
moved T88288 to doing column
|
|
2015-06-16 15:26:02
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#topic renaming columns
|
|
2015-06-16 15:26:16
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#agreed rename "to triage" to "triage"
|
|
2015-06-16 15:26:30
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#agreed rename "triaged" to "backlog"
|
|
2015-06-16 15:27:19
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#topic triaging "doing"
|
|
2015-06-16 15:27:48
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
resolving T99658 because it is done
|
|
2015-06-16 15:29:53
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#topic triaging "waiting for"
|
|
2015-06-16 15:31:28
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
T90477 is not a browser tests task, but mediawiki vagrant, removing browser tests from the task
|
|
2015-06-16 15:34:50
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
T85201 resolved as declined, no reply in months
|
|
2015-06-16 15:41:32
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#agreed we are willing to accept part of the patch associated with T98719, but not the entire patch
|
|
2015-06-16 15:46:28
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#agreed resolving T73602
|
|
2015-06-16 15:48:25
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#agreed resolving T65708 as declined
|
|
2015-06-16 15:50:08
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#agreed removing browser-tests project from T95395
|
|
2015-06-16 15:51:23
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (text): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-16-15.05.txt
|
|
2015-06-16 15:51:23
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#endmeeting
|
|
2015-06-16 15:51:23
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting ended Tue Jun 16 15:51:23 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
|
|
2015-06-16 15:51:23
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-16-15.05.html
|
|
2015-06-16 15:51:23
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (wiki): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-16-15.05.wiki
|
|
2015-06-16 15:51:23
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Log: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-16-15.05.log.html
|
|
2015-06-17 21:01:31
|
<TimStarling>
|
#startmeeting RFC meeting
|
|
2015-06-17 21:01:31
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting started Wed Jun 17 21:01:31 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is TimStarling. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
|
|
2015-06-17 21:01:31
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
|
|
2015-06-17 21:01:31
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
The meeting name has been set to 'rfc_meeting'
|
|
2015-06-17 21:02:02
|
<TimStarling>
|
#topic Request retries, timeouts, 5xx restart behavior | RFC meeting | Wikimedia meetings channel | Please note: Channel is logged and publicly posted (DO NOT REMOVE THIS NOTE) | Logs: http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23wikimedia-office/
|
|
2015-06-17 21:02:47
|
<bd808>
|
o/
|
|
2015-06-17 21:03:14
|
<gwicke>
|
just pinged bblack
|
|
2015-06-17 21:03:22
|
<TimStarling>
|
which ticket do you want to start with? I see there has been some further discussion on T97206
|
|
2015-06-17 21:04:24
|
<TimStarling>
|
T97204 seems mostly unchanged since the previous meeting which was on May 6
|
|
2015-06-17 21:04:32
|
<gwicke>
|
I think it would be useful to catch up on two main areas: 1) how did the 503 retry changes in Varnish go?, and 2) should we continue to reduce the timeouts in API responses?
|
|
2015-06-17 21:05:13
|
<bblack>
|
yes I'm here
|
|
2015-06-17 21:05:32
|
<gwicke>
|
bblack: great!
|
|
2015-06-17 21:06:10
|
<gwicke>
|
bblack, you mention spikes without 503 retries, and re-enabled retries
|
|
2015-06-17 21:06:39
|
<TimStarling>
|
#link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T97206
|
|
2015-06-17 21:06:45
|
<bblack>
|
well, it's not quite that simple, let me give you a quick info dump on those experiments from two different angles
|
|
2015-06-17 21:07:16
|
<gwicke>
|
bblack: thanks, that would be helpful
|
|
2015-06-17 21:07:28
|
<bblack>
|
The "upload" cluster used to have zero retries. It always gave 503 spikes when we had to restart 1/N servers. I actually *added* a single non-cascading restart of 503s at the outer (front) layer there, and those spikes went away, and I like that.
|
|
2015-06-17 21:08:04
|
<gwicke>
|
so the spike is about client-observed 503s
|
|
2015-06-17 21:08:09
|
<gwicke>
|
not retries
|
|
2015-06-17 21:08:20
|
<bblack>
|
On the "text" cluster, it used to have cascading/multiplicative retries at every varnish layer. I temporarily reduce that to a single outer-layer 503 retry like upload above. Nobody complained for several days. I reverted because the graphs looked bad to me, but I think that was unrelated interference.
|
|
2015-06-17 21:08:39
|
<bblack>
|
It didn't go away with the revert, and I plan to put it back in that single-retry state again, I just haven't yet
|
|
2015-06-17 21:09:04
|
<gwicke>
|
so the issue is that we don't have a way to cleanly restart app servers?
|
|
2015-06-17 21:09:22
|
<bblack>
|
we're working on that, it's due Real Soon Now with _joe_'s etcd stuff
|
|
2015-06-17 21:09:38
|
<bblack>
|
(it's not about app server restarts, about cache server restarts, in this case)
|
|
2015-06-17 21:09:38
|
<gwicke>
|
*nod*
|
|
2015-06-17 21:10:21
|
<gwicke>
|
so basically we are on a path of eliminating sources of 503s
|
|
2015-06-17 21:10:43
|
<bblack>
|
so experimentally-speaking, in the real world our architecture inhabits today, I'm leaning towards a model of standardizing the cache clusters' disparate behaviors to "single retry of 503 at the outermost cache only"
|
|
2015-06-17 21:11:01
|
<bblack>
|
no retry of other 5xx, no retry of anything at any deeper varnish layer, etc.
|
|
2015-06-17 21:11:32
|
<TimStarling>
|
ok
|
|
2015-06-17 21:11:33
|
<bblack>
|
(and then perhaps we can kill the 503 retry once the etcd stuff for depooling cache servers sanely hits)
|
|
2015-06-17 21:11:34
|
<gwicke>
|
yeah, makes sense
|
|
2015-06-17 21:11:52
|
<gwicke>
|
bblack: do you still see the long-term goal to eliminate 503 retries as well?
|
|
2015-06-17 21:12:13
|
<bblack>
|
yes
|
|
2015-06-17 21:12:52
|
<gwicke>
|
cool
|
|
2015-06-17 21:13:06
|
<TimStarling>
|
does varnish generate a 503 on backend timeout?
|
|
2015-06-17 21:13:17
|
<bblack>
|
yes
|
|
2015-06-17 21:13:30
|
<bblack>
|
and I we could potentially differentiate those, but we'd have to figure out some tricks for it
|
|
2015-06-17 21:14:03
|
<bblack>
|
right now, I don't have any easy way to tell at the outermost varnish whether the 503 was generated: internally by itself for failure to contact the next varnish, generated by that next varnish, or generated by the app
|
|
2015-06-17 21:14:15
|
<TimStarling>
|
sure, but it makes sense to come up with optimal policies for the software we have
|
|
2015-06-17 21:14:19
|
<gwicke>
|
#info we are on a path of gradually reducing sources of 503s from app / cache server restarts; improvements are expected from etcd / pybal work
|
|
2015-06-17 21:14:46
|
<gwicke>
|
TimStarling: does that syntax look correct?
|
|
2015-06-17 21:14:55
|
<TimStarling>
|
yes
|
|
2015-06-17 21:15:01
|
<gwicke>
|
kk, thx
|
|
2015-06-17 21:15:19
|
<TimStarling>
|
last time I was talking about doing different things on connection refused etc., but I was mostly thinking about node and PHP clients which have some control over that sort of thing
|
|
2015-06-17 21:15:25
|
<bblack>
|
I also haven't found any simple way with current config, to differentiate things like TCP connect-fail/timeout vs other forms of 503-generating error
|
|
2015-06-17 21:15:53
|
<gwicke>
|
#info long-term goal is still to eliminate 503 retries as well, but in the meantime we are restricting 503 retries to the outermost cache layer
|
|
2015-06-17 21:16:10
|
<TimStarling>
|
in PHP for example, you have all of the curl options to play with, plus you can distinguish most sorts of errors
|
|
2015-06-17 21:16:35
|
<gwicke>
|
yeah, that's veering into the territory of the other RFC
|
|
2015-06-17 21:16:40
|
<bblack>
|
gwicke: entailed in those changes is the elimination of other 5xx retries, too (we currently retry the others in some cases)
|
|
2015-06-17 21:17:22
|
<gwicke>
|
bblack: makes sense
|
|
2015-06-17 21:17:45
|
<bblack>
|
basically my view is short-term: standardize on 1x 503-retry at outermost cache globally (which eliminate, in various cases, >1 503 retries, and any kind of other-5xx retry)
|
|
2015-06-17 21:18:02
|
<bblack>
|
long-term: kill that last retry too, once we have a sane mechanism for depooling servers that avoids the 503 spikes we'd otherwise get
|
|
2015-06-17 21:18:48
|
<gwicke>
|
TimStarling: is there a good way to log that?
|
|
2015-06-17 21:19:30
|
<TimStarling>
|
http://meetbot.debian.net/Manual.html#commands
|
|
2015-06-17 21:19:47
|
<gwicke>
|
regarding connect timeouts & finer-grained client handling: I remember that we pretty much agreed that retrying on a client connect error is okay, as it's basically free for the server side
|
|
2015-06-17 21:20:29
|
<gwicke>
|
TimStarling: thx!
|
|
2015-06-17 21:20:30
|
<bblack>
|
yes, and I still agree with that sentiment, and we should probably document that (as we could switch to other software in the varnish role later). Without patching varnish, I don't think it's easy to differentiate that today
|
|
2015-06-17 21:21:55
|
<gwicke>
|
#agreed retrying a small number of times on TCP connect error is okay, as it is basically free on the server side
|
|
2015-06-17 21:22:15
|
<TimStarling>
|
it says chairs only for that one
|
|
2015-06-17 21:22:18
|
<TimStarling>
|
#chair gwicke
|
|
2015-06-17 21:22:18
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Current chairs: TimStarling gwicke
|
|
2015-06-17 21:22:42
|
<gwicke>
|
#agreed retrying a small number of times on TCP connect error is okay, as it is basically free on the server side
|
|
2015-06-17 21:23:09
|
<gwicke>
|
I guess this brings us back to timeouts
|
|
2015-06-17 21:23:34
|
<gwicke>
|
we did lower the PHP API timeout from infinity to 280 seconds
|
|
2015-06-17 21:23:47
|
<bblack>
|
my recollection was the overall sentiment before was to avoid retrying anything that failed after partial-work-done
|
|
2015-06-17 21:24:10
|
<bblack>
|
so a timeout on receiving a response would fall into that category
|
|
2015-06-17 21:24:17
|
<gwicke>
|
as far as I'm aware no issues have been reported about this timeout change
|
|
2015-06-17 21:24:54
|
<gwicke>
|
bblack: yeah
|
|
2015-06-17 21:25:09
|
<gwicke>
|
that's the case where the server times out the request
|
|
2015-06-17 21:25:12
|
<TimStarling>
|
I have some sentiments but I would also like data to better inform my sentiments
|
|
2015-06-17 21:25:49
|
<gwicke>
|
the crux is about setting server-side timeouts, and how they relate to a client's time budget
|
|
2015-06-17 21:26:01
|
<TimStarling>
|
in particular, when you retry after a timeout, is the second request typically shorter?
|
|
2015-06-17 21:26:16
|
<TimStarling>
|
it would be nice to have a histogram
|
|
2015-06-17 21:26:55
|
<gwicke>
|
TimStarling: do you mean a server-side timeout, or a client-side one?
|
|
2015-06-17 21:27:24
|
<TimStarling>
|
both
|
|
2015-06-17 21:29:14
|
<gwicke>
|
sorry, a bit distracted with a prod issue
|
|
2015-06-17 21:29:20
|
<chasemp>
|
would almost any server side timeout imply "partial work done" even if that work is to say "go away now I can't service this"? Not including connect failures etc that aren't explicit.
|
|
2015-06-17 21:30:26
|
<bblack>
|
chasemp: yes, any time the client reaches a timeout while waiting for a server to respond (over an establish TCP connection over which a request was sent), that's "partial-work-done" and IMHO shouldn't be retried on timeout-fail.
|
|
2015-06-17 21:30:37
|
<gwicke>
|
the problem is basically that we do sometimes have nodes that accept connections, but aren't working properly
|
|
2015-06-17 21:30:50
|
<bblack>
|
(including the similar case where the server abruptly closes due to its own processing timeout instead of returning a nice error)
|
|
2015-06-17 21:30:51
|
<gwicke>
|
for example, when there is a memory leak and the node spends most time in GC
|
|
2015-06-17 21:31:19
|
<gwicke>
|
in those cases, retrying on a different node can lead to success
|
|
2015-06-17 21:31:52
|
<bblack>
|
it's undifferential in the general case from a request that's simply always going to timeout and wasted lots of resources if you keep retrying it, though
|
|
2015-06-17 21:32:28
|
<bblack>
|
I'd rather see that expose a 5xx when it first fails, and then we can debug those and eliminate whatever the real problem is, instead of trying to paper it over.
|
|
2015-06-17 21:32:32
|
<TimStarling>
|
the load balancer can have cluster state information and can distinguish those
|
|
2015-06-17 21:32:44
|
<TimStarling>
|
it's hard to differentiate if you assume a stateless client
|
|
2015-06-17 21:33:24
|
<TimStarling>
|
ideally a permanently slow server would be detected by health checks and depooled, and only repooled when the health checks succeed
|
|
2015-06-17 21:33:59
|
<bblack>
|
yes, and that's true today, if it's persistently failing a healthcheck timeout cutoff for all queries in general
|
|
2015-06-17 21:34:31
|
<bblack>
|
I'm more concerned about the case where only one special request-pattern triggers massive resource consumption -> timeout, regardless of which previously-healthy server it's retried on.
|
|
2015-06-17 21:35:03
|
<TimStarling>
|
yep
|
|
2015-06-17 21:35:12
|
<TimStarling>
|
which is pretty common for wikitext parsing at the moment
|
|
2015-06-17 21:35:15
|
<chasemp>
|
maybe the client side timeout should barely exceed the depooling timeout so a secondary try has the greatest chance of $new_pool_host and limit the retry to 1
|
|
2015-06-17 21:35:47
|
<chasemp>
|
and then the smarts of when a backend is valid should be consolidated into pybal
|
|
2015-06-17 21:36:41
|
<TimStarling>
|
even for upload, we could have the same kind of pattern, when a huge image is thumbnailed
|
|
2015-06-17 21:36:49
|
<bblack>
|
yes
|
|
2015-06-17 21:37:07
|
<gwicke>
|
ideally we'd be able to distinguish a hanging server from one that cleanly times out the request
|
|
2015-06-17 21:37:19
|
<gwicke>
|
if it cleanly times out, we shouldn't retry
|
|
2015-06-17 21:37:29
|
<bblack>
|
do you mean the server reaching an internal timeout?
|
|
2015-06-17 21:37:44
|
<gwicke>
|
if we were talking with a black hole and never hear back (no timeout), then maybe we can retry in some situations
|
|
2015-06-17 21:38:03
|
<bblack>
|
if it wants to signal that more-cleanly than aborting, it should return a 500 at that time, perhaps with some debug information about having timed out included.
|
|
2015-06-17 21:39:49
|
<gwicke>
|
the canonical status for a timeout is 503
|
|
2015-06-17 21:40:31
|
<bblack>
|
I disagree
|
|
2015-06-17 21:40:33
|
<gwicke>
|
but yeah, the idea is more that an explicit timeout from the server signals that the server is generally healthy, and the issue is with the request
|
|
2015-06-17 21:41:00
|
<bblack>
|
I still think 503 is a server-level thing, not a "this one specific URL timed out during internal processing" thing.
|
|
2015-06-17 21:41:27
|
<harej>
|
aren't all 500-series errors server-level?
|
|
2015-06-17 21:41:29
|
<gwicke>
|
okay; I don't care that much about which status is the right one
|
|
2015-06-17 21:41:33
|
<bblack>
|
503 in the [IETF] RFC says: "The server is currently unable to handle the request due to a temporary overloading or maintenance of the server"
|
|
2015-06-17 21:41:37
|
<gwicke>
|
we can discuss that separately
|
|
2015-06-17 21:41:57
|
<bblack>
|
I think using RFC-correct status codes is pretty central to all of this. That was one conclusion we came to last time.
|
|
2015-06-17 21:42:44
|
<gwicke>
|
right, but we can set that aside for a moment and assume that we have a status to communicate a server-side request timeout
|
|
2015-06-17 21:43:08
|
<gwicke>
|
be that 500, 503 or 555
|
|
2015-06-17 21:43:09
|
<bblack>
|
I think if a server is pooled/up/available in general, but reaches an internal catch-all timeout while processing one particular request, the most appropriate code would be for the server to respond with a 500 (if it gets that chance before the client gives up on it).
|
|
2015-06-17 21:44:42
|
<chasemp>
|
gwicke: I guess I worry as the most common manifestation of overwhelm/snow balling load is lack of ability to cleanly service and even timeout clients gracefully and if we say we should retry without an explicit "hold off" it's a recipe for pile-on load issues.
|
|
2015-06-17 21:45:17
|
<bd808>
|
https://wiki.apache.org/httpd/CommonHTTPStatusCodes agrees with bblack -- "500 .. Erroneous CGI / PHP (Bad filesystem permissions, scripting errors, malformed or missing shebang line, bad line endings, script timeouts, etc) "
|
|
2015-06-17 21:46:35
|
<gwicke>
|
chasemp: yeah, that's potentially a problem
|
|
2015-06-17 21:47:16
|
<gwicke>
|
I think we all agree that generally we shouldn't retry, unless doing so can save a lot of effort compared to a higher-level retry
|
|
2015-06-17 21:47:21
|
<bblack>
|
for a middle-client, the question is trickier: if it times out without ever receiving a response from the server, what status code does it send to its client?
|
|
2015-06-17 21:47:43
|
<bblack>
|
if the middle-client's role in like is very proxy-like, I think "504 Gateway Timeout" makes sense
|
|
2015-06-17 21:48:37
|
<bblack>
|
but it's more of a model where the middle client executes real code, which happens to be making sub-calls to other servers, one of which timed out with no response, then I think that's still a 500 type of situation.
|
|
2015-06-17 21:49:25
|
<TimStarling>
|
it sounds like there is not much disagreement on general principles
|
|
2015-06-17 21:49:44
|
<TimStarling>
|
are there any action items?
|
|
2015-06-17 21:50:40
|
<TimStarling>
|
do we want to recommend work on varnish or load balancers, or change particular status codes in places where we can feasibly control them?
|
|
2015-06-17 21:50:54
|
<chasemp>
|
(I'm not sure if this includes things already in teh works like "more effective pooling / depooling based on server viability")
|
|
2015-06-17 21:51:19
|
<gwicke>
|
TimStarling: one of the sticky points is timeouts on the server side
|
|
2015-06-17 21:51:23
|
<bblack>
|
if we have agreement on it, I think an action to switch all our varnish clusters to a 5xx-retry model of "single retry of only 503, only at the outermost cache" makes sense at this point
|
|
2015-06-17 21:51:49
|
<TimStarling>
|
any objections to that?
|
|
2015-06-17 21:51:50
|
<gwicke>
|
currently some APIs have timeouts that significantly exceed a client's time budget
|
|
2015-06-17 21:52:40
|
<gwicke>
|
we were discussing gradually lowering the PHP API timeouts, for example
|
|
2015-06-17 21:52:43
|
<TimStarling>
|
#action bblack to switch all our varnish clusters to a 5xx-retry model of "single retry of only 503, only at the outermost cache"
|
|
2015-06-17 21:53:51
|
<gwicke>
|
I would propose the following: 1) get metrics in place on server-side timeouts, with data on API entry points; 2) very gradually lower the global timeout, and keep an eye on the metrics
|
|
2015-06-17 21:54:32
|
<bblack>
|
to me, it seems more fundamental to decide what our global behaviors should be wrt all of this than decide on specific timeout values.
|
|
2015-06-17 21:54:59
|
<bblack>
|
it matters less what sane number of seconds we can work that timeout down to. more that we're consistent in how we handle such things in general.
|
|
2015-06-17 21:55:31
|
<gwicke>
|
if we never retry at all (not in Varnish either) and don't care about wasted effort, then I agree
|
|
2015-06-17 21:56:00
|
<TimStarling>
|
I think we can reduce the default timeout in MW in a single step, to say 60s, as long as we implement a system for extending the timeout of write requests
|
|
2015-06-17 21:56:08
|
<TimStarling>
|
you know MW can set the timeout at runtime
|
|
2015-06-17 21:56:15
|
<gwicke>
|
but if we are aiming for a timely error detection & actually getting error codes in clients before their time budget has run out, then I think timeouts are quite important
|
|
2015-06-17 21:56:48
|
<TimStarling>
|
I've said before, we have a long timeout to improve the chances of database consistency, but if we have a different timeout for writes then we are not so constrained
|
|
2015-06-17 21:57:15
|
<gwicke>
|
TimStarling: that would be great, I think
|
|
2015-06-17 21:57:57
|
<TimStarling>
|
ok
|
|
2015-06-17 21:58:54
|
<TimStarling>
|
#action TimStarling to file a ticket about increasing MW timeout for write requests, allowing reduction of the default HHVM timeout
|
|
2015-06-17 21:59:19
|
<TimStarling>
|
anything else for the notes before I end the meeting?
|
|
2015-06-17 21:59:31
|
<bblack>
|
nope
|
|
2015-06-17 21:59:44
|
<gwicke>
|
this was very useful I think
|
|
2015-06-17 21:59:48
|
<TimStarling>
|
#endmeeting
|
|
2015-06-17 21:59:48
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting ended Wed Jun 17 21:59:48 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
|
|
2015-06-17 21:59:49
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-17-21.01.html
|
|
2015-06-17 21:59:49
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (text): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-17-21.01.txt
|
|
2015-06-17 21:59:49
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (wiki): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-17-21.01.wiki
|
|
2015-06-17 21:59:49
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Log: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-17-21.01.log.html
|
|
2015-06-17 22:00:22
|
<gwicke>
|
thanks everybody!
|
|
2015-06-19 16:21:32
|
<rdhyee>
|
Should I write a proposal to approval for a bot (https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Bots#Approval_process)?
|
|
2015-06-19 16:21:45
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
rdhyee: sounds like the right thing to do yes.
|
|
2015-06-19 16:21:53
|
<rdhyee>
|
ok
|
|
2015-06-19 16:21:56
|
<harej>
|
(No but seriously I held a Wikidata hackathon with Census people in attendance and we made... very little progress.)
|
|
2015-06-19 16:22:06
|
<harej>
|
If you can make more progress that would be excellent.
|
|
2015-06-19 16:22:12
|
<dennyvrandecic>
|
rdhyee: that would be quite cool. How did you do the mapping?
|
|
2015-06-19 16:22:25
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
harej: can you explain why there was little progress?
|
|
2015-06-19 16:22:34
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
ricordisamoa: cool :)
|
|
2015-06-19 16:22:34
|
<harej>
|
We didn't know what we were doing?
|
|
2015-06-19 16:22:40
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
heh
|
|
2015-06-19 16:22:40
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
ok
|
|
2015-06-19 16:22:41
|
<rdhyee>
|
I'm not very far along....but will start to figure out mappings....
|
|
2015-06-19 16:22:50
|
<harej>
|
Wikidata was also not very mature at the time.
|
|
2015-06-19 16:22:59
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
harej: rdhyee: maybe also check if there is a wiki project? or create one if none exists?
|
|
2015-06-19 16:23:07
|
<ricordisamoa>
|
Lydia_WMDE: but it doesn't work :(
|
|
2015-06-19 16:23:11
|
<audephone>
|
No units yet
|
|
2015-06-19 16:23:12
|
<rdhyee>
|
I've worked with the US Census API for a while and have access to local census experts at Berkeley
|
|
2015-06-19 16:23:24
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
audephone: a good point
|
|
2015-06-19 16:23:36
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
ricordisamoa: what's the holdup?
|
|
2015-06-19 16:23:53
|
<rdhyee>
|
thanks for the encouragement, everyone....
|
|
2015-06-19 16:24:17
|
<ricordisamoa>
|
a query service is needed to obtain the node
|
|
2015-06-19 16:24:23
|
<dennyvrandecic>
|
ppopulation won't need units
|
|
2015-06-19 16:24:24
|
<ricordisamoa>
|
such as http://overpass-api.de/api/interpreter?data=%5Bout%3Acustom%5D%3Bnode%5Bwikidata%3D%22Q244207%22%5D%3Bout%3B&url=http://www.openstreetmap.org/?{{{type}}}={{{id}}}
|
|
2015-06-19 16:25:06
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
ricordisamoa: on the OSM side? sorry i'm not very familiar with OSM :(
|
|
2015-06-19 16:25:19
|
<ricordisamoa>
|
me neither
|
|
2015-06-19 16:25:51
|
<rdhyee>
|
planning to start with populations from 2010 US census and look at issue of mapping census identifiers to wikidata identifiers....maybe easy maybe not....
|
|
2015-06-19 16:25:56
|
<TomT0m>
|
I think we already have a property for population
|
|
2015-06-19 16:26:04
|
<matej_suchanek>
|
indeed
|
|
2015-06-19 16:26:11
|
<TomT0m>
|
I'm sure, I did use it
|
|
2015-06-19 16:26:28
|
<rdhyee>
|
yes...there is a property for population. This idea came from my entering by hand the 2010 population for my city.
|
|
2015-06-19 16:26:45
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
ricordisamoa: then maybe have a chat with audephone and andy mabbet? they're both rather familiar with OSM
|
|
2015-06-19 16:26:58
|
<audephone>
|
Census has stuff like area also
|
|
2015-06-19 16:27:08
|
<TomT0m>
|
Tried to find a way to compute the precision of the INSEE datas, turns out they only give a pdf on how to compute it
|
|
2015-06-19 16:27:09
|
<ricordisamoa>
|
a WMDEv should take a look at https://github.com/kenguest/Services_Openstreetmap
|
|
2015-06-19 16:27:26
|
<audephone>
|
But start with population is good
|
|
2015-06-19 16:28:22
|
<TomT0m>
|
Lydia_WMDE, about precision, will there be a way to see the entered raw numbers ? Currently when adding a precisions, the numbers after precision are all 0 although the origianl number was more precise
|
|
2015-06-19 16:28:51
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
TomT0m: what would you like to see?
|
|
2015-06-19 16:29:48
|
<TomT0m>
|
I don't know, it's weird at first when you entered 198234123 and that 198230000 is showed finally
|
|
2015-06-19 16:30:49
|
<dennyvrandecic>
|
so in that case the value was 198234123 and the precision was +- 10000?
|
|
2015-06-19 16:32:44
|
<ricordisamoa>
|
with OSM we could have accurate coordinates, boundaries, streets, etc
|
|
2015-06-19 16:33:18
|
<TomT0m>
|
yep, that's a little weird actually, but the insee publishes its raw census numbers with a well hidden pdf on how to compute the error margin
|
|
2015-06-19 16:33:40
|
<ricordisamoa>
|
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikidata/2015-June/006383.html
|
|
2015-06-19 16:33:51
|
<ricordisamoa>
|
"Therefore I would like to suggest the forming of a
|
|
2015-06-19 16:33:51
|
<ricordisamoa>
|
working group with core users from OpenStreetMap and from Wikidata to sit
|
|
2015-06-19 16:33:51
|
<ricordisamoa>
|
together on this subject."
|
|
2015-06-19 16:34:48
|
<TomT0m>
|
came on this because a friend just added the Paris population for the city to show up on the big city with a female mayor query, and he wanted to remove the +/-1 ironically
|
|
2015-06-19 16:35:33
|
<TomT0m>
|
of course remove but not add the precision :)
|
|
2015-06-19 16:35:33
|
<dennyvrandecic>
|
he could have set it to 0
|
|
2015-06-19 16:35:47
|
<dennyvrandecic>
|
but yes, I agree that's a bit weird.
|
|
2015-06-19 16:36:07
|
<dennyvrandecic>
|
Lydia_WMDE: do you have a spec on how it should look like, or do you need one?
|
|
2015-06-19 16:36:09
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
yeah the +/- 1 we really need to fix -.-
|
|
2015-06-19 16:36:12
|
<dennyvrandecic>
|
community could work on one
|
|
2015-06-19 16:36:19
|
<dennyvrandecic>
|
as a suggestion
|
|
2015-06-19 16:36:27
|
<TomT0m>
|
dennyvrandecic, yep, that's what he did, but I wanted to add the real precision, it's kind of globally absurd when you think about it
|
|
2015-06-19 16:36:31
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
no if someone wants to write up a suggestion that'd be aprechiate
|
|
2015-06-19 16:36:32
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
d
|
|
2015-06-19 16:36:57
|
<dennyvrandecic>
|
TomT0m: let's work on a suggestion. You want to start a first draft?
|
|
2015-06-19 16:37:45
|
<dennyvrandecic>
|
TomT0m: yeah, a bit absurd, but it sounds right. This kind of things happen all the time with scientific data
|
|
2015-06-19 16:39:06
|
<TomT0m>
|
dennyvrandecic, ok, I'll think about it
|
|
2015-06-19 16:39:12
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
cool :)
|
|
2015-06-19 16:39:52
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
sooooo then a question from my side: coolest usage of arbitrary access so far you've seen?
|
|
2015-06-19 16:40:14
|
<matej_suchanek>
|
my own taxobox
|
|
2015-06-19 16:40:21
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
matej_suchanek: ohhhh
|
|
2015-06-19 16:40:22
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
link?
|
|
2015-06-19 16:40:38
|
<matej_suchanek>
|
however, cswiki is getting arbacc on Monday
|
|
2015-06-19 16:41:00
|
<matej_suchanek>
|
so it isn't live
|
|
2015-06-19 16:41:01
|
<audephone>
|
tuesday
|
|
2015-06-19 16:41:19
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
awwwww ok. do send me a link when it's live then
|
|
2015-06-19 16:42:51
|
<matej_suchanek>
|
also icons for ratings of videogames (PEGI, USK)
|
|
2015-06-19 16:43:04
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
is that live?
|
|
2015-06-19 16:43:20
|
<matej_suchanek>
|
yes, but it uses array of images instead
|
|
2015-06-19 16:43:30
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
ok
|
|
2015-06-19 16:43:46
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
ricordisamoa: what's your latest cool thing?
|
|
2015-06-19 16:44:34
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
Tpt: do you want to give us a short update on all things primary sources tool?
|
|
2015-06-19 16:44:47
|
<Tpt>
|
Lydia_WMDE: Yes.
|
|
2015-06-19 16:45:19
|
<matej_suchanek>
|
then there is one use case one hold but our community would like it
|
|
2015-06-19 16:45:32
|
<ricordisamoa>
|
Lydia_WMDE: nothing after http://tools.wmflabs.org/ptable/ :(
|
|
2015-06-19 16:45:36
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
matej_suchanek: which one?
|
|
2015-06-19 16:45:38
|
<ricordisamoa>
|
...but keep listening!
|
|
2015-06-19 16:45:47
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
ricordisamoa: that is pretty cool! :)
|
|
2015-06-19 16:46:01
|
<Tpt>
|
I am at Google since two weeks. I have mainly focus currently on creating a conversion tool between Freebase dumps format and Wikidata statement system in order to feed the Primary Sources tool
|
|
2015-06-19 16:46:04
|
<matej_suchanek>
|
gender inflection of labels using monolingual property which hasn't been created yet
|
|
2015-06-19 16:46:18
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
matej_suchanek: ah ok. noted.
|
|
2015-06-19 16:46:30
|
<matej_suchanek>
|
useable on occupations actor - actress
|
|
2015-06-19 16:46:37
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
*nod*
|
|
2015-06-19 16:46:44
|
<matej_suchanek>
|
thus herec - herečka
|
|
2015-06-19 16:47:05
|
<Tpt>
|
A first set of statements have already been uploaded to Primary Sources. Your feedbacks are welcome. To use the Primary Source tool please visit https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Primary_sources_tool
|
|
2015-06-19 16:47:05
|
<ricordisamoa>
|
looks interesting
|
|
2015-06-19 16:47:39
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
Tpt: any chance you can tell us what kind of data you've worked on already and what's coming?
|
|
2015-06-19 16:48:21
|
<Tpt>
|
The first uploaded dumps contains only simple statements (e.g. without qualifiers) between items.
|
|
2015-06-19 16:48:37
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
ok
|
|
2015-06-19 16:48:49
|
<Tpt>
|
The next one should support all Wikidata types (times, coordinates, strings...)
|
|
2015-06-19 16:49:22
|
<Tpt>
|
and also qualifiers in order to reflect the compound data types of Freebase (that works more or less like our qualifiers)
|
|
2015-06-19 16:49:41
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
great
|
|
2015-06-19 16:50:03
|
<matej_suchanek>
|
Lydia_WMDE: in my head there are also sister cities and birthplaces/deathplaces with countries and flagicons
|
|
2015-06-19 16:50:53
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
matej_suchanek: nice! looking forward to seeing it
|
|
2015-06-19 16:51:08
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
alright. we have about 10 mins left. anything else you want to talk about today?
|
|
2015-06-19 16:51:53
|
<TomT0m>
|
nope, I'm out
|
|
2015-06-19 16:51:57
|
<TomT0m>
|
good bye
|
|
2015-06-19 16:51:58
|
<Tpt>
|
One of the big challenge that remains is to map as many Freebase properties as possible. I have created a page with the most used properties to do so: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Freebase/Mapping Your help is welcome for this topic
|
|
2015-06-19 16:52:53
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
Tpt: want to add it to the weekly summary as well?
|
|
2015-06-19 16:53:07
|
<Tpt>
|
Lydia_WMDE: Yes, it would be nice
|
|
2015-06-19 16:54:07
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Status_updates/Next is always open ;-)
|
|
2015-06-19 16:54:55
|
<Tpt>
|
Lydia_WMDE: thanks :-)
|
|
2015-06-19 16:55:18
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
alright. thanks so much everyone for coming.
|
|
2015-06-19 16:55:23
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
always nice hanging out with you :)
|
|
2015-06-19 16:55:45
|
<ricordisamoa>
|
popups work on properties
|
|
2015-06-19 16:55:46
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
hope to see some of you at wikimania
|
|
2015-06-19 16:55:50
|
<ricordisamoa>
|
but it's hackish
|
|
2015-06-19 16:55:58
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
ricordisamoa: yay! indeed!
|
|
2015-06-19 16:56:07
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
<3 hovercards
|
|
2015-06-19 16:56:18
|
<Tpt>
|
Thank you very much Lydia_WMDE
|
|
2015-06-19 16:59:44
|
<dennyvrandecic>
|
thanks
|
|
2015-06-19 16:59:52
|
<matej_suchanek>
|
hi all
|
|
2015-06-19 17:00:21
|
<matej_suchanek>
|
#endmeeting
|
|
2015-06-19 17:02:11
|
<ricordisamoa>
|
bye
|
|
2015-06-19 17:02:58
|
<Lydia_WMDE>
|
will try to post log on-wiki
|
|
2015-06-19 17:26:29
|
<martin1>
|
-
|
|
2015-06-19 20:48:17
|
<mforns>
|
madhuvishy, the Edit schema, was assigned to Dario, but we should assign it to JForrester
|
|
2015-06-19 20:49:04
|
<mforns>
|
madhuvishy, just telling you, because I see you probably want to talk to him next
|
|
2015-06-19 20:49:20
|
<madhuvishy>
|
mforns: cool :)
|
|
2015-06-19 20:49:22
|
<mforns>
|
madhuvishy, I'll move the schema down next to james'
|
|
2015-06-19 20:49:37
|
<madhuvishy>
|
mforns: why are we chatting #office :)
|
|
2015-06-19 20:49:55
|
<mforns>
|
madhuvishy, xDDD sorry
|
|
2015-06-22 17:54:06
|
<thcipriani>
|
#startmeeting Deployment Systems Weekly Triage
|
|
2015-06-22 17:54:23
|
<thcipriani>
|
#link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Deployment_tooling/Meetings/2015-06-15/Minutes Last triage
|
|
2015-06-22 17:54:31
|
<thcipriani>
|
#link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Deployment_tooling/Meetings/2015-06-22 Agenda
|
|
2015-06-22 17:54:39
|
<thcipriani>
|
and...no meetbot
|
|
2015-06-22 18:09:11
|
<thcipriani>
|
#topic in-progress for https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/deployment-systems/?order=priority
|
|
2015-06-22 18:34:16
|
<dr0ptp4kt>
|
hi tgilbey
|
|
2015-06-22 18:34:37
|
<tgilbey>
|
Hi dr0ptp4kt
|
|
2015-06-22 18:41:45
|
<dr0ptp4kt>
|
hi tgilbey
|
|
2015-06-22 18:42:33
|
<dr0ptp4kt>
|
tgilbey: test
|
|
2015-06-22 18:55:14
|
<dr0ptp4kt>
|
having a pretty good day
|
|
2015-06-22 19:00:54
|
<James_F>
|
Jamesofur|cloud: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T103402 BTW.
|
|
2015-06-23 14:01:04
|
<hashar>
|
#startmeeting Weekly CI triage
|
|
2015-06-23 14:01:10
|
<hashar>
|
WTF
|
|
2015-06-23 14:01:56
|
<hashar>
|
zeljkof: jzerebecki meetbot is dead :D
|
|
2015-06-23 14:02:07
|
<hashar>
|
meeting over hangout https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/wikimedia.org/ci-weekly?authuser=0
|
|
2015-06-23 14:02:45
|
<jzerebecki>
|
o/
|
|
2015-06-23 14:03:11
|
<hashar>
|
well bye bye meetbot
|
|
2015-06-23 14:03:13
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
o/
|
|
2015-06-23 14:03:30
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
hashar: anybody speaking in the hangout? I do not hear anything
|
|
2015-06-23 14:03:43
|
<hashar>
|
you want to force reload I guess
|
|
2015-06-23 14:04:14
|
<hashar>
|
broken
|
|
2015-06-23 14:06:00
|
<hashar>
|
#topic Zulu slow to remote update from Gerrit
|
|
2015-06-23 14:07:29
|
<hashar>
|
jzerebecki: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T70481
|
|
2015-06-23 14:08:57
|
<hashar>
|
jzerebecki: I wrote a script to purge old refs
|
|
2015-06-23 14:08:59
|
<hashar>
|
zuul-clear-refs.py --verbose --dry-run --until 90 /srv/zuul/git/project
|
|
2015-06-23 14:09:05
|
<hashar>
|
can't remember whether it is installed on gallium
|
|
2015-06-23 14:10:22
|
<hashar>
|
we need zuul to create references using something like: zuul/master/2015/06/Zxxxxxx
|
|
2015-06-23 14:12:19
|
<hashar>
|
demo time on gallium as zuul: /home/hashar/zuul-clear-refs.py -n -v --until 90 /srv/ssd/zuul/git/mediawiki/core/
|
|
2015-06-23 14:16:57
|
<hashar>
|
#agreed Run zuul-clear-refs.py daily on all our repositories to reclaim Zuul references https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T103528
|
|
2015-06-23 14:17:43
|
<hashar>
|
#action Publish the last meeting notes
|
|
2015-06-23 14:17:51
|
<hashar>
|
#topic composer for dependencies
|
|
2015-06-23 14:18:10
|
<hashar>
|
jzerebecki migrated the Wikidata/Wikibase jobs to use composer. Need to run composer twice due to missing features though
|
|
2015-06-23 14:20:03
|
<jzerebecki>
|
#link https://github.com/wikimedia/composer-merge-plugin/issues/34
|
|
2015-06-23 14:20:09
|
<hashar>
|
wikibase has to run twice as a result :-(((
|
|
2015-06-23 14:21:31
|
<hashar>
|
#link https://github.com/wikimedia/composer-merge-plugin/pull/36 Bryan Davis sent a pull request!
|
|
2015-06-23 14:26:06
|
<hashar>
|
jzerebecki: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T90303 Fetch dependencies using composer instead of cloning mediawiki/vendor for non-wmf branches
|
|
2015-06-23 14:48:30
|
<hashar>
|
quick demo of Nodepool
|
|
2015-06-23 14:48:43
|
<hashar>
|
Does not put slaves offline though ( https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T103551 )
|
|
2015-06-23 14:50:32
|
<hashar>
|
#agreed to puppetize Nodepool https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/201728/
|
|
2015-06-23 14:50:35
|
<hashar>
|
jzerebecki: zeljkof-meeting https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/201728/ :d
|
|
2015-06-23 14:52:51
|
<hashar>
|
the end :D
|
|
2015-06-23 15:02:25
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
marxarelli: meeting ping :)
|
|
2015-06-23 15:06:20
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#startmeeting weekly browser tests triage
|
|
2015-06-23 15:07:54
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#topic triaging triage column
|
|
2015-06-23 15:08:07
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#link to the board sorted by priority https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/view/1078/?order=priority
|
|
2015-06-23 15:09:09
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#agreed moving T102726 to backlog
|
|
2015-06-23 15:10:47
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#agreed moving T102546 to backlog
|
|
2015-06-23 15:11:36
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#agreed moving T102536 to backlog
|
|
2015-06-23 15:14:04
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#topic triaging doing column
|
|
2015-06-23 15:26:52
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#topic triaging waiting for column
|
|
2015-06-23 15:37:08
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#topic triaging triage column
|
|
2015-06-23 15:52:42
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
done with the triage, good job everybody
|
|
2015-06-23 15:53:25
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
attending: hashar, CFisch_WMDE, marxarelli
|
|
2015-06-23 15:53:30
|
<zeljkof-meeting>
|
#endmeeting
|
|
2015-06-23 18:13:59
|
<spagewmf>
|
question for Yuri: is the map graphing a reasonable way to put a map on-wiki irrespective of graphing any data?
|
|
2015-06-23 18:16:12
|
<spagewmf>
|
is this the IRC channel for Showcase / Lightning Talks? (no info in the calendar invite :( )
|
|
2015-06-23 18:16:43
|
<Glaisher>
|
spagewmf: #wikimedia-tech
|
|
2015-06-23 18:17:05
|
<spagewmf>
|
thx Glaisher
|
|
2015-06-23 18:49:57
|
<MaxSem>
|
moizsyed, we're the cool kids!
|
|
2015-06-23 21:33:36
|
<TimStarling>
|
DanielK_WMDE_ / hashar: I believe the dumps are decompressed, the stream copied, and then recompressed
|
|
2015-06-23 21:33:55
|
<TimStarling>
|
which is not really the same as just storing the differences since last time
|
|
2015-06-23 21:34:43
|
<TimStarling>
|
but the problem with storing the differences since last time is that there's no way to stop hosting things that were revdeleted
|
|
2015-06-23 21:36:31
|
<hashar>
|
TimStarling: supposedly we will have to filter the dump with the current rev deleted list ?
|
|
2015-06-23 21:37:08
|
<TimStarling>
|
to do it efficiently, I think you either need a database format which allows fast seeking and overwrites, or split each dump up into many files
|
|
2015-06-23 21:37:15
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
that would probably be quicker than rebuilding a full dump...
|
|
2015-06-23 21:37:56
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
TimStarling: cdb?
|
|
2015-06-23 21:38:49
|
<TimStarling>
|
maybe an adaption of CDB would work, or an adaption of zip
|
|
2015-06-23 21:39:00
|
<TimStarling>
|
both have a directory at the end, which you would have to rewrite
|
|
2015-06-23 21:40:13
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
or maybe even berkeley...
|
|
2015-06-24 14:21:32
|
<andrewbogott>
|
!log graceful’d apache on labcontrol1001
|
|
2015-06-24 14:21:32
|
<wm-bot>
|
http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23wikimedia-office/
|
|
2015-06-24 21:00:35
|
<TimStarling>
|
#startmeeting RFC meeting
|
|
2015-06-24 21:01:42
|
<bd808>
|
meetbot is still awol?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:02:09
|
<TimStarling>
|
what is tools?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:02:36
|
<bd808>
|
https://tools.wmflabs.org/
|
|
2015-06-24 21:02:43
|
<matanya>
|
bd808: poked yuvi
|
|
2015-06-24 21:03:08
|
<bd808>
|
marktraceur can theoretically poke the bot
|
|
2015-06-24 21:03:09
|
<TimStarling>
|
it says on https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Nova_Resource:Tools/Tools/meetbot that you are meant to run jstart ~/bin/meetbot
|
|
2015-06-24 21:03:22
|
<matanya>
|
TimStarling: being handled for you
|
|
2015-06-24 21:03:25
|
<TimStarling>
|
it doesn't say on which server you are meant to run that, you are meant to know that already
|
|
2015-06-24 21:03:37
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
:P
|
|
2015-06-24 21:03:44
|
<spagewmf>
|
hi meetbot
|
|
2015-06-24 21:03:47
|
<Krinkle>
|
o/
|
|
2015-06-24 21:03:52
|
<matanya>
|
TimStarling: at your service :)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:04:12
|
<TimStarling>
|
matanya: you are my DNS replacement today? ;)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:04:30
|
<TimStarling>
|
#startmeeting RFC meeting
|
|
2015-06-24 21:04:30
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting started Wed Jun 24 21:04:30 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is TimStarling. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:04:30
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:04:30
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
The meeting name has been set to 'rfc_meeting'
|
|
2015-06-24 21:04:36
|
<matanya>
|
TimStarling: just connecting the teams within WMF, as alwyas :)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:05:07
|
<TimStarling>
|
#topic Architecture focus discussion | Wikimedia meetings channel | Please note: Channel is logged and publicly posted (DO NOT REMOVE THIS NOTE) | Logs: http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23wikimedia-office/
|
|
2015-06-24 21:05:22
|
<Krinkle>
|
Thanks to Pygments, lang= lighttpd is now supported for <source>
|
|
2015-06-24 21:05:29
|
<Krinkle>
|
fixes meetbot page
|
|
2015-06-24 21:05:33
|
<bd808>
|
TimStarling: Much assumed knowledge in those docs. ssh tools-login or tools-dev and run `become meetbot`needed before all of those
|
|
2015-06-24 21:05:56
|
<matanya>
|
bd808: i'll fix that in my spare time
|
|
2015-06-24 21:06:06
|
<TimStarling>
|
#link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Architecture_focus_2015
|
|
2015-06-24 21:06:20
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
hey, i was just going to do that :)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:06:41
|
<gwicke>
|
returns, coffee in hand
|
|
2015-06-24 21:06:49
|
<spagewmf>
|
#link also https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T96903
|
|
2015-06-24 21:07:17
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
So, after the archtecture discussion at lyon, I tried to summarize the outcome a bit. It think it would be useful to summarize in broad terms what high level areas we want to work on in the next months.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:08:35
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
My main questions today are: Are we missing anything important there? And how do you think these topics should be prioritized? What are the high level archiectural topics that you care about in your work with MediaWiki
|
|
2015-06-24 21:08:36
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:08:52
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
#info main questions today are: Are we missing anything important there? And how do you think these topics should be prioritized? What are the high level archiectural topics that you care about in your work with MediaWiki?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:09:25
|
<bd808>
|
The general topic of modularity and testability is most important to me
|
|
2015-06-24 21:09:43
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
yesterday, there was meeting about the content representation issue already, with a lot of people form different areas.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:09:44
|
<gwicke>
|
I think one of my take-aways from yesterday's discussion was that content representation, editing and widgets are more urgent than originally expected
|
|
2015-06-24 21:09:54
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
gwicke, do you have the link to the notes from yesterday?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:10:26
|
<gwicke>
|
#info content platform discussion notes: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/Content_platform
|
|
2015-06-24 21:10:38
|
<bblack>
|
From my reading of the (rather long!) list of related topics in the various linked docs/tasks, the one that stands out the most to me as being central to many others is: "Separating data from presentation"
|
|
2015-06-24 21:10:42
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
bd808: yay :)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:11:44
|
<gwicke>
|
bblack: yeah, that was a strong tenor in yesterday's discussion as well
|
|
2015-06-24 21:12:16
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
gwicke: what high level challanges do you see wrt editing and widgets?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:12:41
|
<tgr>
|
bd808+1, the discussion so far seemed to focus on what's not possible with MediaWiki today, and not what's unnecessarily slow and cumbersome with MediaWiki today (everything :) which should be equally important
|
|
2015-06-24 21:12:49
|
<tgr>
|
although maybe less actionable
|
|
2015-06-24 21:12:59
|
<bd808>
|
separation is especially complicated as wikitext provides both content and presentation
|
|
2015-06-24 21:13:01
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
Two questions:
|
|
2015-06-24 21:13:26
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
1. What exactly is meant by 'widget'?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:13:35
|
<bd808>
|
It feels to me like what we may need is an ETL phase to create structured information from wikitext
|
|
2015-06-24 21:13:38
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
2. Was there a rep from Collaboration team at the meeting yesterday? I see some discussion about Flow.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:13:57
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
bd808: i'd rather generate wikitext from structured information :)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:13:59
|
<gwicke>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: managing the change is a challenge: making sure that existing editors continue to be productive, and existing tools don't break more than necessary
|
|
2015-06-24 21:14:14
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
gwicke: by what change, exactly?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:14:22
|
<bblack>
|
also if I could interject just to note that it's important to me that we eventually come back to this, I think 'One key question in this context is whether support for a "monolithic" distribution bundle for the LAMP platform should be continued' is critical for some perhaps non-obvious reasons
|
|
2015-06-24 21:14:24
|
<gwicke>
|
also, being very deliberate about what we take on
|
|
2015-06-24 21:14:26
|
<bd808>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: by rewriting all articles and retraining all editors on all projects and independent wikis?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:14:34
|
<TimStarling>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: AI prose creation?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:14:45
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
+1 to bblack. I'm glad third-party users are being addressed.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:15:18
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
bd808: no, by providing Lua libraries
|
|
2015-06-24 21:15:37
|
<gwicke>
|
matt_flaschen: widgets are basically things like current tag extensions, but extended to potentially cover areas like infoboxes and (ideally) integrated with the editing experience
|
|
2015-06-24 21:15:51
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
TimStarling: that would also be an option. there's a thesis generator, why not a wikipedia article generator?... oh wait, stub bots exist.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:15:52
|
<TimStarling>
|
just feed wikidata and the style guide to lua, it should be able to write wikipedia
|
|
2015-06-24 21:15:53
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
Thanks
|
|
2015-06-24 21:16:11
|
<gwicke>
|
it's not very defined at this point, people are talking more about the direction than the exact implementation
|
|
2015-06-24 21:16:11
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
TimStarling: that'S what reasonator is :)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:16:17
|
<bd808>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: which would make adding structure to articles easier I take it but still leave millions of pages to update
|
|
2015-06-24 21:17:17
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
It's not going to happen overnight either way. One question is whether we should do:
|
|
2015-06-24 21:17:26
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
bd808: yes. if we want to separate data from presentational wikitext, this can only be done semi-automatically. someone has to look at it.,
|
|
2015-06-24 21:17:38
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
a. Extract machine-readable content from wikitext (ala fancier versions of TextExtracts)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:17:39
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
or:
|
|
2015-06-24 21:17:57
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
b. Build the content the user sees from pre-separated content (e.g. Wikidata, Commons, graph pages, etc.)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:18:07
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
Or probably some combination (but it could still be helpful to choose the primary direction.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:18:20
|
<spagewmf>
|
gwicke: can we come up with a better term than "widget", which I think denotes an OOUI UX thing. Semantic Content Block?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:18:31
|
<bd808>
|
(b) feels like taking power from the editors and giving it to the programmers
|
|
2015-06-24 21:18:43
|
<gwicke>
|
spagewmf: it's ageneric UI term
|
|
2015-06-24 21:18:48
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
matt_flaschen: i'm al for b, of course. though that may mean we have to do a first.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:18:51
|
<tgr>
|
so instead of having to learn wikitext, now you would only have to learn coding in lua if you wanted to change a wikipedia article
|
|
2015-06-24 21:19:09
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
bd808, I don't really agree. I think users have already adopted (b) a lot, especially in regards to Wikidata. And there are benefits both for our projects and third parties.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:19:16
|
<TimStarling>
|
in case it's not obvious, I don't think automatically written prose and data tables are what wikipedia is about
|
|
2015-06-24 21:19:16
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
spagewmf: i agree. "widget" to me implies interaction
|
|
2015-06-24 21:19:41
|
<gwicke>
|
'content blob' ;)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:19:46
|
<bblack>
|
we do want to make editing (even semantic editing, not just raw data) easier for more users on simpler UIs, not more complex, in all of this, I think.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:19:58
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
tgr, only if it's taken to extreme. I don't think anyone is saying there won't be anywhere to put prose.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:19:59
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
gwicke: that would be the storage side
|
|
2015-06-24 21:20:35
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
TimStarling: i agree, if prose is available. maybe auto-generated may be better than nothing, though.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:20:41
|
<gwicke>
|
bblack: indeed; part of this can be enabled by having more control over the rendering; think inline editing of a population number in an infobox, that feeds back into wikidata
|
|
2015-06-24 21:20:54
|
<gwicke>
|
or similar inline editing in a data table
|
|
2015-06-24 21:20:57
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
I think it's more about replacing tables like 'List of European countries by GDP' with Lua and Wikidata, than replacing prose. I don't think auto-generated text will or should replace Wikipedia.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:21:03
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
bblack: wikitext is an enormously complex UI
|
|
2015-06-24 21:21:05
|
<Krinkle>
|
I watched the recording of the livestream from a few days ago. And one suggestion I heard I liked is the idea to put e.g. categories in a separate json blob, but saved along the same revision content. Even if only at the edge api level so that consumers can add a category without html nor wiktext. Presumably, if a bot submits wikitext edits that adds new categories we'd post-save strip.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:21:15
|
<Krinkle>
|
that leaves stuff added by templates, which can still work I suppose.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:21:18
|
<tgr>
|
matt_flaschen: the current setup is that an article is a sea of prose with isles of non-prose content, which could come from structured data
|
|
2015-06-24 21:21:51
|
<Krinkle>
|
I second Daniel's concern about having to store it in one place though.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:21:55
|
<tgr>
|
if the vision is to replace that with a sea of generated content with isles of human-written prose, I can't really imagine how that would work
|
|
2015-06-24 21:22:03
|
<gwicke>
|
Krinkle: we are slowly working towards that; it will be needed for VE section editing
|
|
2015-06-24 21:22:37
|
<tgr>
|
matt_flaschen: sorry, writing first, reading later :)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:22:51
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
tgr, I don't know whether there woudl be more generated content or more prose (it doesn't really matter, the question is how to handle what could be generated content). But "how that would work" would probably be a nice UI for VE editors, and a not-so-nice but usable UI for wikitext editors.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:22:54
|
<bd808>
|
I think "post-save strip" is the same thing I mean by ETL (extract, transform, load)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:23:18
|
<gwicke>
|
tgr: I don't think the ratio would change; it's mostly about treating the semantic information as such, and optimizing common problems for readers and editors
|
|
2015-06-24 21:23:44
|
<bd808>
|
which would retain a "blob" of an article but create once-per-edit extracted metadata collections
|
|
2015-06-24 21:24:05
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
tgr: no, the idea is to generate the bits that are a pain to maintain by hand, like lists, or {{info}} templates on commons.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:24:15
|
<spagewmf>
|
can we develop these semantic "content blobs", that mobile can render separately/differently and that you can edit with a specialized VE interface, independent of whether they're stored outside wikitext?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:24:36
|
<bd808>
|
yes
|
|
2015-06-24 21:24:40
|
<bd808>
|
we do that today
|
|
2015-06-24 21:24:46
|
<spagewmf>
|
AIUI the only problem is they can be very large, like TemplateData and <graph> contents
|
|
2015-06-24 21:24:50
|
<bd808>
|
with template editing in VE for exampel
|
|
2015-06-24 21:24:52
|
<Krinkle>
|
we could potentially save the wikitext and json blob in separate places and have a content handler that supports references (similar to how our revision text table contains references to shards?) - transclusions essentially. Then configuration could declare if a certain type or namespace of blobs goes to a different storage backend.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:25:04
|
<gwicke>
|
bd808: that's a poor example ;)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:25:10
|
<Krinkle>
|
e.g. one content blob that points to two other ones
|
|
2015-06-24 21:25:21
|
<Krinkle>
|
(internally that is)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:25:41
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
Krinkle: yes, that's what the "generalized transclusion" and "late assembly" bits in the document are about
|
|
2015-06-24 21:25:55
|
<tgr>
|
spagewmf: there are lots of problems, how to figure out update chains, how to provide meaningful histories etc
|
|
2015-06-24 21:25:56
|
<TimStarling>
|
Krinkle: Daniel is going to propose introducing a new table which associates multiple content blobs with a given revision
|
|
2015-06-24 21:26:02
|
<TimStarling>
|
a new table to the MW core
|
|
2015-06-24 21:26:09
|
<tgr>
|
I felt the meeting yesterday did a very good summary of that
|
|
2015-06-24 21:26:15
|
<gwicke>
|
it is very hard to provide things like inline editing on template output, when the displayed data has gone through many layers of text processing to convert a birthday to an age, and other fun formatting steps
|
|
2015-06-24 21:26:37
|
<gwicke>
|
the same can be a lot easier in a table or infobox widget
|
|
2015-06-24 21:26:40
|
<TimStarling>
|
but templatedata is not such a bad UI
|
|
2015-06-24 21:26:54
|
<TimStarling>
|
or is it TemplateInfo now?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:27:05
|
<gwicke>
|
it is a very good solution to the general problem
|
|
2015-06-24 21:27:09
|
<TimStarling>
|
I mean, if you want semantic editing
|
|
2015-06-24 21:27:15
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
tgr: i liked gwicke's approach of thinking of update chains as declaring dependencies, instead of event subscriptions or notification chains. these will be needed, but the thing we want to model is actually dependencies.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:27:22
|
<Krinkle>
|
it's gonna make race conditions and conflicts harder depending on how loose we are with editing one of the blobs without the other. A similar UX problem happens with section editing already (e.g. one user removes a category in the bottom section, another user changes a contradictory statement in the first section)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:27:22
|
<gwicke>
|
but I don't think it's the most optimized solution to all use cases
|
|
2015-06-24 21:27:26
|
<TimStarling>
|
there's a fundamental inconsistency between semantic editing and WYSIWYG
|
|
2015-06-24 21:27:36
|
<bblack>
|
+1
|
|
2015-06-24 21:27:56
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
indeed
|
|
2015-06-24 21:27:59
|
<tgr>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: isn't declaring dependencies and event subscriptions the same thing?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:28:04
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
gwicke, would these infobox widgets work for all content-based templates, or only ones that fit the narrow WYSIWYG format?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:28:09
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
I mean narrow infobox format.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:28:12
|
<Krinkle>
|
one is pull, the other is push I guess.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:28:22
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
tgr: event subscription is one way to model/implement the dependencies, yes
|
|
2015-06-24 21:28:30
|
<James_F>
|
TimStarling: TemplateInfo was the original development name, as is the way of such things. :-)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:29:26
|
<gwicke>
|
matt_flaschen: I think it makes sense to focus on a few cases with a high cost / benefit ratio first
|
|
2015-06-24 21:29:35
|
<Krinkle>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: So, do you envision EditPage and ApiEdit will also be able to, in that future, retrieve and submit both pieces of content at once?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:29:36
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
I'd very much like for transclusion (at least into wikitext) to work for any kind of content.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:30:16
|
<gwicke>
|
matt_flaschen: or rather, low cost, high benefit ;)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:30:23
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
Krinkle: I imagine something nice that will replace EditPage and ApiEdit to be able to do that, yes :)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:31:02
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
James_F: how about getting template info out of wikitext, and storing it separately?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:31:20
|
<James_F>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: Would be lovely. Needs MW core support.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:31:31
|
<James_F>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: As is your point. :-)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:31:38
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
James_F: well, if it's on a separate page, core support is there.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:31:45
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
gwicke, maybe. But it's possible to envision generic solutions. E.g. a way to annotate template output to show which parts should be editable. For example, if the output reads. "Born January 1, 1985 (age 30)", both parts are generated from birthday. However, there could be an annotation stating that editing the printed date should trigger editing the birthday field (and age is not directly editable), but that previews should
|
|
2015-06-24 21:31:46
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
show changes to both parts.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:31:48
|
<gwicke>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: sounds like 'data-mw', a parsoid feature
|
|
2015-06-24 21:31:53
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
for having it associated with another page as secondary content - well, that's what i'm currently planning
|
|
2015-06-24 21:31:59
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
This could work for infoboxes, but also other templates.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:32:10
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
Same with e.g. {{convert}} for unit conversions.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:32:26
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
matt_flaschen: Capiunto could go a long way in that direction. Have you looke dat it?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:32:30
|
<bblack>
|
matt_flaschen: that seems to imply all conversions are bidirectional, which may not be the case?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:32:36
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
DanielK_WMDE_, I've heard of it, haven't looked at the details.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:32:56
|
<gwicke>
|
matt_flaschen: yes, but such an edit integration API could probably be developed with more restricted widgets first, and then later generalized to arbitrary templates
|
|
2015-06-24 21:33:03
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
bblack, no it doesn't. Note above I'm saying only birthday is editable, but age should change as the user previews. I understand age->birthday conversion is impossible.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:33:20
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
matt_flaschen: basically, a Lua library for building infooboxes in a unified way. pretty simple, and a nice way to add meta-info to all infoboxes that use it.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:33:36
|
<gwicke>
|
matt_flaschen: it's not trivial, so good to start with the simpler case first
|
|
2015-06-24 21:33:40
|
<bblack>
|
matt_flaschen: what about the case where what's in the text is one or more representations that are one-way conversions of data that's not directly in the text?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:34:09
|
<tgr>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: TemplateData is often generated from a doc template; it's good not to have duplication, and generating metadata from docs seems more flexible than generating docs from metadata
|
|
2015-06-24 21:34:27
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
bblack, if the internal field (birthday in this example) is not visible in the output, may not be a good candidate for inline editing.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:34:29
|
<tgr>
|
AIUI that was the main objection to non-wikitext-based templatedata
|
|
2015-06-24 21:34:37
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
tgr: generating docs from metadata sounds easier and cleaner to me, honestly
|
|
2015-06-24 21:35:02
|
<TimStarling>
|
interesting to imagine inline editing of wikidata-generated content, I wonder if it's important to let editors know how many articles they are vandalising at a time
|
|
2015-06-24 21:35:11
|
<tgr>
|
easier and cleaner but less flexible :)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:35:21
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
hehe
|
|
2015-06-24 21:35:34
|
<gwicke>
|
TimStarling: good point
|
|
2015-06-24 21:35:36
|
<spagewmf>
|
is the recipe for these Semantic Content Blobs 1. Add a parser tag, 2. Fill it with JSON, 3. Beg VE team to implement a snazzy editor for it? What confuses me is <graph> and <templatedata> don't look like "transclusion" because they have no curly braces :)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:35:43
|
<tgr>
|
when the Wikipedia community has to choose between those, they usually end up with flexibility, for better or worse
|
|
2015-06-24 21:35:45
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
tgr: in the sense that perl is "flexible" :P
|
|
2015-06-24 21:35:54
|
<Krinkle>
|
James_F: DanielK_WMDE_: having it on a separate page requires an additional namespace with is bad UX. It also leads to them being orphaned potentially (maybe with delete hooks) and distributed history/talkpage/watchlist.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:36:11
|
<gwicke>
|
TimStarling: a different edit workflow with review might be warranted
|
|
2015-06-24 21:36:15
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
Krinkle: associated namespaces could help.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:37:36
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
TimStarling: i'd imagine inline editing would be one edit per value, like on wikidata. there would be no difference to edits made directly on wikidata.org
|
|
2015-06-24 21:37:46
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
more exposure, perhaps. that might prove a critical factor
|
|
2015-06-24 21:38:36
|
<tgr>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: one big difference is that you have to make the user understand that they are changing content at multiple places
|
|
2015-06-24 21:38:38
|
<gwicke>
|
more exposure is actually important for the quality of wikidata content, the same way it is for wikipedia content
|
|
2015-06-24 21:38:50
|
<tgr>
|
that already tends to be a problem with templates that contain section headers
|
|
2015-06-24 21:39:00
|
<TimStarling>
|
I think that when you are asking the user to shift mental model, from prose to semantic, or from local to global, it helps to cue that with visual changes
|
|
2015-06-24 21:39:18
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
+1
|
|
2015-06-24 21:39:20
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
yes, agreed. a lot of potential for good (or terrible) ux there
|
|
2015-06-24 21:40:06
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
so.... how about the "modularity and testability" cross-cut concern? i have been wanting to push for code architecture guidelines for a while.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:40:26
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
is it about time now? and what kind of changes would you push for to improve modularity and testability?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:40:51
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
DanielK_WMDE_, we already have them: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Architecture_guidelines I'm sure there are further improvements that can be made to the guidelines, though.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:41:36
|
<TimStarling>
|
sure, we have guidelines, but it's not nice to block people in gerrit who are following existing precedents
|
|
2015-06-24 21:41:51
|
<TimStarling>
|
especially when they are making small changes
|
|
2015-06-24 21:41:58
|
<gwicke>
|
in some service projects coverage numbers have been nice as a motivator; if coverage falls, we have to manually override that in the merge
|
|
2015-06-24 21:42:13
|
<Krinkle>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: Meh, we need less namespaces, not more associated ones :P
|
|
2015-06-24 21:42:25
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
matt_flaschen: that's a pretty inconclusive collection of points and arguments, and not concrete enough for my taste. I think we started that after a meeting in amsterdam two years ago.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:42:39
|
<Krinkle>
|
it could work, but then we should not have muti-content blob. Seems like that would duplicate logic
|
|
2015-06-24 21:42:39
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
Krinkle: so, multi-content revisions / multi-stream pages, yay!
|
|
2015-06-24 21:42:51
|
<TimStarling>
|
we have had a lot of architectural change in MW core, but it usually starts with a search and replace
|
|
2015-06-24 21:42:58
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
matt_flaschen: I'd love to see this overhaupled and extended
|
|
2015-06-24 21:43:30
|
<gwicke>
|
I think it could be helpful to establish coverage goals for MW core and extensions as well
|
|
2015-06-24 21:43:36
|
<TimStarling>
|
i.e. we have someone who promulgates a change by establishing it widely, and then everyone else has an example to follow
|
|
2015-06-24 21:44:00
|
<bd808>
|
One of the bike shed issues that I've seen hold up or even stall out change is "how do we name things that are being split apart"
|
|
2015-06-24 21:44:09
|
<tgr>
|
matt_flaschen: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Architecture_guidelines#Separation_of_concerns_.E2.80.94_encapsulation_versus_value_objects is not what I could call a guideline, and that's the only not extremely generic part of that page
|
|
2015-06-24 21:44:10
|
<bblack>
|
I personally think these higher-level discussions about content/structure/presentation, and the other pool of concerns around modularity/SOA/packaging, are mostly orthogonal and should be separated. The necessity of a change in one area does not drive/validate the other.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:44:18
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
TimStarling: depends on the change, the people, and the precedence, I'd say. We shouldn't scare people off by yelling at them for doing what everybody does. But if we want the code to change, we have to tell people.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:44:33
|
<gwicke>
|
bblack: agreed; we treat them as separate subjects
|
|
2015-06-24 21:44:34
|
<tgr>
|
some have said, some have disagreed, reads like a bad Wikipedia article about some contentious topic
|
|
2015-06-24 21:44:46
|
<bd808>
|
I remember some long back and forth about using "Manager" as a class name suffix specifically
|
|
2015-06-24 21:45:02
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
bd808: manager, handler, helper, thingy :)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:45:13
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
bd808: ....wrapper factory adaptor :)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:45:17
|
<gwicke>
|
bblack: this document started as a summary of the topics we managed to discuss in Lyon
|
|
2015-06-24 21:45:25
|
<TimStarling>
|
do what wikidata does and just make up words
|
|
2015-06-24 21:45:35
|
<bd808>
|
snak
|
|
2015-06-24 21:45:55
|
<gwicke>
|
bblack: see https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T96903 for the longer list
|
|
2015-06-24 21:45:58
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
bblack: gwicke put them into two separate sections already. I agree that they are othogonal
|
|
2015-06-24 21:45:59
|
<bd808>
|
hence forth all new logging things I make ill be called "blergs"
|
|
2015-06-24 21:46:33
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
bd808: I'm very sorry for "Snak", I was hungry >_<
|
|
2015-06-24 21:46:55
|
<bblack>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: "Execution in the Kingdom of Nouns" is relevant here. Don't turn php or js into Java :)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:47:17
|
<gwicke>
|
bblack++
|
|
2015-06-24 21:47:44
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
bblack: you know, I find myself turning to javafication as my last hope in the struggle with php...
|
|
2015-06-24 21:48:10
|
<bd808>
|
I find *ValueObject to be javafication personally. PHP loves arrays
|
|
2015-06-24 21:48:33
|
<bd808>
|
and it really still kind of hates objects
|
|
2015-06-24 21:48:41
|
<TimStarling>
|
that's a funny essay
|
|
2015-06-24 21:49:05
|
<gwicke>
|
http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/execution-in-kingdom-of-nouns.html
|
|
2015-06-24 21:49:21
|
<TimStarling>
|
it seems to argue for functional programming, but that is not easy when it is not well-supported by the language
|
|
2015-06-24 21:49:32
|
<tgr>
|
bd808: arrays are fun until you need to change them
|
|
2015-06-24 21:49:39
|
<bblack>
|
(to get the 30-second gist, just search the page for "For the lack of a war"
|
|
2015-06-24 21:49:42
|
<bblack>
|
)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:49:51
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
tgr, so let's improve it, and be more decisive. Creating a separate page and just ignoring the old one won't help.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:50:06
|
<tgr>
|
then you end up with horrible defensive coding full of isset()s because no one has any idea what exactly is in there any more
|
|
2015-06-24 21:50:25
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
bd808: i knod of like type hints. maybe I'm secretly a java person....
|
|
2015-06-24 21:50:27
|
<tgr>
|
matt_flaschen: no arguments there
|
|
2015-06-24 21:51:45
|
<TimStarling>
|
so are there any meeting notes or action items?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:51:45
|
<bd808>
|
I did my time in strongly typed languages and then decided that python and php were much nicer for writing web stuff
|
|
2015-06-24 21:51:46
|
<gwicke>
|
I still think that having test coverage numbers / changes and maps displayed prominently on each patch can be very helpful to drive better test coverage
|
|
2015-06-24 21:51:56
|
<TimStarling>
|
we don't have time for another topic now
|
|
2015-06-24 21:52:38
|
<gwicke>
|
here's an example from restbase, from an external service: https://coveralls.io/builds/2802798
|
|
2015-06-24 21:52:40
|
<bblack>
|
I think my meta-note is to break this up into at least a couple of separate discussions, re: orthogonality above
|
|
2015-06-24 21:52:56
|
<bd808>
|
bblack: +1
|
|
2015-06-24 21:52:57
|
<bblack>
|
(content/structure/presentation v modularity/SOA/packaging)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:53:10
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
TimStarling: i'll re-read the logs tomorrow or friday, and go over the document and update it.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:53:11
|
<TimStarling>
|
#info bblack: break this up into at least a couple of separate discussions, re: orthogonality above
|
|
2015-06-24 21:53:16
|
<tgr>
|
bd808: I don't think there is any contradiction between python/php being nicer and arrays not being a right choice for information that has a well-defined schema
|
|
2015-06-24 21:53:46
|
<TimStarling>
|
#action DanielK_WMDE_ to update the document
|
|
2015-06-24 21:54:03
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
I'll send out a summary.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:54:06
|
<spagewmf>
|
TimStarling, bblack: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Architecture_focus_2015 proposes several discussions, all starting "Over the next months". are those (and the two Content Platform discussions) the right discussions
|
|
2015-06-24 21:54:11
|
<spagewmf>
|
?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:54:22
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
one final question though, since i have grown a bit dubious...
|
|
2015-06-24 21:54:25
|
<gwicke>
|
bblack, we are establishing two working groups: one for content storage, change propagation and possibly caching; the other for content representation, widgets, editing
|
|
2015-06-24 21:54:39
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
do you think it'sd useful to have such a "focus" document?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:54:48
|
<bblack>
|
spagewmf: I think that the 2x big dividers there are separate at least (The single-= titles)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:54:49
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
or are tickets and working groups enough?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:55:24
|
<gwicke>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: I think an overview of the topics and activities is useful
|
|
2015-06-24 21:55:29
|
<TimStarling>
|
it probably helps with our influence over prioritisation
|
|
2015-06-24 21:55:37
|
<bblack>
|
gwicke: I don't think either of those covers some of the topics in modularity/SOA that I'd like to address
|
|
2015-06-24 21:55:44
|
<tgr>
|
bd808: hack shapes are an interesting middle ground
|
|
2015-06-24 21:55:53
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
gwicke: bblack suggested modularity/SOA/packaging as a third topic bundle / working group topic
|
|
2015-06-24 21:56:16
|
<gwicke>
|
yes, we could consider that if there is sufficient interest
|
|
2015-06-24 21:56:31
|
<gwicke>
|
just have to be mindful about how much we can do in parallel
|
|
2015-06-24 21:56:38
|
<bblack>
|
I have interest sufficient that I don't want to see that area neglected and just go to some default answers on those topics
|
|
2015-06-24 21:56:40
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
doesn't have to be at the same time
|
|
2015-06-24 21:56:46
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
just not "maybe next year"
|
|
2015-06-24 21:56:51
|
<bblack>
|
I think there's potential for Bad Decisions there if we don't talk about it
|
|
2015-06-24 21:56:59
|
<gwicke>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: agreed
|
|
2015-06-24 21:57:00
|
<TimStarling>
|
next week there is no RFC scheduled for discussion
|
|
2015-06-24 21:57:06
|
<TimStarling>
|
there have been no new RFCs filed
|
|
2015-06-24 21:57:39
|
<TimStarling>
|
so if anyone here has something they want to talk about with a broad audience, please consider putting it in that meeting slot
|
|
2015-06-24 21:57:49
|
<bblack>
|
ok!
|
|
2015-06-24 21:58:05
|
<spagewmf>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: We need something that's more descriptive of where MediaWiki is and is headed. You can read Architecture_guidelines and Coding_conventions and have no idea that we have Graphoid, <templatedata> , etc.
|
|
2015-06-24 21:58:15
|
<gwicke>
|
bblack: the soa & packaging topic will probably come up as part of the content storage discussion as well
|
|
2015-06-24 21:58:29
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
spagewmf: no, more high- and mdeium-level documentation?
|
|
2015-06-24 21:58:39
|
<bblack>
|
I think it's orthogonal, but I can see how they'd be sucked in as somewhat related
|
|
2015-06-24 21:59:05
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
bblack: othogoal doesn't mean unrelated, it means it'll come up in all the other topics :)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:59:19
|
<gwicke>
|
;)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:59:21
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
(otherwise, it would be parallel, right?...)
|
|
2015-06-24 21:59:42
|
<bblack>
|
related, but not dependant, in my view
|
|
2015-06-24 21:59:54
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
indeed
|
|
2015-06-24 22:00:18
|
<gwicke>
|
in practice, discussions about the role of restbase for example depend on packaging
|
|
2015-06-24 22:00:38
|
<gwicke>
|
and scaling things down
|
|
2015-06-24 22:01:05
|
<bblack>
|
restbase is a much lower-level detail than the general topic of content storage, IMHO
|
|
2015-06-24 22:01:10
|
<spagewmf>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: I don't understand your question? I'm agreeing there's a need for something like Architecture_focus_2015, but it helps to avoid overlap with those and Phab tickets.
|
|
2015-06-24 22:01:11
|
<Krinkle>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: btw, another thing about if it (templatedata) were in a separate namespace, is change propagation to the documentation page.
|
|
2015-06-24 22:01:50
|
<TimStarling>
|
thanks for coming everyone
|
|
2015-06-24 22:01:50
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
Krinkle: i'd propose to use templatelinks
|
|
2015-06-24 22:01:51
|
<gwicke>
|
bblack: agreed; it's just an example of a possible dependency on a service, which in turn might only be feasible for development and third-party use with improvements in packaging
|
|
2015-06-24 22:01:59
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
Krinkle: it's a type of transclusion, really
|
|
2015-06-24 22:02:01
|
<TimStarling>
|
should we schedule more meetings like this, with a general topic?
|
|
2015-06-24 22:02:16
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
I think maybe once every few months.
|
|
2015-06-24 22:02:22
|
<bblack>
|
I think the list of things in the initial links was way too huge for one meeting for one hour
|
|
2015-06-24 22:02:27
|
<Krinkle>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: A namespace wide implicit transclusion
|
|
2015-06-24 22:02:41
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
I think most of the meetings should be about a more precise topic.
|
|
2015-06-24 22:03:07
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
matt_flaschen: yea, but every now and then, it helps to look at the big map, I think
|
|
2015-06-24 22:03:18
|
<TimStarling>
|
#endmeeting
|
|
2015-06-24 22:03:18
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Meeting ended Wed Jun 24 22:03:18 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
|
|
2015-06-24 22:03:18
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-24-21.04.html
|
|
2015-06-24 22:03:18
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (text): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-24-21.04.txt
|
|
2015-06-24 22:03:18
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Minutes (wiki): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-24-21.04.wiki
|
|
2015-06-24 22:03:18
|
<wm-labs-meetbot>
|
Log: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-06-24-21.04.log.html
|
|
2015-06-24 22:03:38
|
<bblack>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: I think all we did was quickly jump down the first rabbithole and never resurface to discuss the rest of the potential agenda :)
|
|
2015-06-24 22:03:41
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
thanks TimStarling!
|
|
2015-06-24 22:03:46
|
<bblack>
|
thanks TimStarling :)
|
|
2015-06-24 22:03:50
|
<matt_flaschen>
|
Yep, thank you.
|
|
2015-06-24 22:03:57
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
bblack: i think we did pretty well today
|
|
2015-06-24 22:04:10
|
<bblack>
|
it's progress for sure
|
|
2015-06-24 22:04:43
|
<gwicke>
|
it's good to have more feedback on the big questions
|
|
2015-06-24 22:04:47
|
<bd808>
|
TimStarling: I think more general discussions would be nice. Maybe with more active moderation / tighter focus
|
|
2015-06-24 22:05:12
|
<bd808>
|
lots of people + lots of topics == lots of wandering
|
|
2015-06-24 22:05:13
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
bd808: more general, with tighter focus?...
|
|
2015-06-24 22:05:46
|
<bd808>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: Like one of the N topics on the page that we started from
|
|
2015-06-24 22:05:47
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
you mean, broader than rfcs usually, but not quite as broad as today?
|
|
2015-06-24 22:05:53
|
<bd808>
|
yes
|
|
2015-06-24 22:05:57
|
<gwicke>
|
the current idea is to give the working group model a try, and complement that with broad meetings every 1-2 months
|
|
2015-06-24 22:06:28
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
gwicke: so, how does one discover and join a working group?
|
|
2015-06-24 22:06:35
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
the concept is a bit ephimeral right now
|
|
2015-06-24 22:06:54
|
<gwicke>
|
DanielK_WMDE_: we are just starting
|
|
2015-06-24 22:07:02
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
yea, sure :)
|
|
2015-06-24 22:07:14
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
i'm wondering about processes and exposure
|
|
2015-06-24 22:07:20
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
but perhaps tomorrow. it's late here
|
|
2015-06-24 22:07:42
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
gwicke: i was thinking out loud, not complaining
|
|
2015-06-24 22:08:07
|
<gwicke>
|
as Trevor said yesterday: they should be open and communicate their progress
|
|
2015-06-24 22:08:42
|
<spagewmf>
|
gwicke: you must not be a native English speaker, you used "complement" correctly :) . I compliment you.
|
|
2015-06-24 22:08:47
|
<gwicke>
|
RFCs developed by the group can be a good way to invite wider feedback
|
|
2015-06-24 22:09:25
|
<gwicke>
|
spagewmf: ;)
|
|
2015-06-24 22:09:49
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
gwicke: in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying Beware of the Leopard :)
|
|
2015-06-24 22:10:05
|
<gwicke>
|
heh!
|
|
2015-06-24 22:11:11
|
<gwicke>
|
lets see if we can make it work, and check in on how it's going regularly
|
|
2015-06-24 22:11:48
|
<DanielK_WMDE_>
|
http://i3.cpcache.com/product/64769110/beware_of_the_leopard_mug.jpg
|
