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2017-09-27 11:41:48
|
<MichaelSchoenitz>
|
Technical Advice IRC meeting starting at 3 pm UTC/5 pm CEST in channel #wikimedia-tech, hosts: @addshore & @C_Fisch (WMDE) - all questions welcome, more infos: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Technical_Advice_IRC_Meeting
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2017-09-27 13:00:42
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
https://species.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%93%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0&action=edit&lintid=4186
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|
2017-09-27 13:00:59
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Can someone please tell me why LintError doesn't like this and what the fix is?
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|
2017-09-27 13:09:41
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Also - https://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/Maria_Helena_M._Galileo
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|
2017-09-27 13:09:52
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
LintError say it has a missing tag... NO missing tag found
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2017-09-27 13:11:44
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<andre__>
|
ShakespeareFan00: wild guess: because you have 3 {| but only two |} ?
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|
2017-09-27 13:11:56
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Can you implement a fix?
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|
2017-09-27 13:12:00
|
<andre__>
|
no.
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|
2017-09-27 13:12:18
|
<andre__>
|
where to see the LintError for https://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/Maria_Helena_M._Galileo ?
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|
2017-09-27 13:12:28
|
<andre__>
|
impossible to take a look for anyone without info how to reproduce.
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|
2017-09-27 13:13:27
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
andre__: Right so you are unable to help?
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|
2017-09-27 13:13:29
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Typical
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|
2017-09-27 13:14:15
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<andre__>
|
ShakespeareFan00: What is "typical"?
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|
2017-09-27 13:14:51
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
The inability of people in the Wikimedia/mediawiki -community to actually provide technical advice unless it's in a tight format...
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2017-09-27 13:14:56
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
It's nothing personal
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2017-09-27 13:15:03
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<andre__>
|
ShakespeareFan00: I took the time to take a look at your link and I gave you a pointer. I cannot "implement a fix" because I am not a developer.
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2017-09-27 13:15:14
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Oh, Sorry
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|
2017-09-27 13:15:20
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<andre__>
|
I mean, I can also ask you to build a nuclear power plant for me and then complain that you don't have the skills.
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2017-09-27 13:15:44
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
andre__: Sorry... It's frustrating trying to pin down technical errors
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2017-09-27 13:43:03
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Page:Rothschild_Extinct_Birds.djvu/16&action=edit
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2017-09-27 13:43:10
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Is saying it has fostered content
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2017-09-27 13:43:15
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
It doesn't
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2017-09-27 13:43:57
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
The content which is nominally foestered is a template inclusion, which is needed because the parser is too limited to handle continations of a table gracefully
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2017-09-27 13:44:28
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
A long term fix which doesn't involve workarounds like {{nop}} would be desirable
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|
2017-09-27 13:58:19
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<thedj>
|
ShakespeareFan00: well.. it does.. sort of.
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2017-09-27 13:58:32
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Yes
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|
2017-09-27 13:58:45
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
And how do you suggest the error is removed?
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2017-09-27 13:58:57
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<thedj>
|
it has three seperately parsed pieces of wikicode, which then get sanitzed and then get concatenated..
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2017-09-27 13:59:33
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Yes
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|
2017-09-27 13:59:53
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<thedj>
|
i think... or does sanitation happen after the concatination.. /me can't remember..
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|
2017-09-27 13:59:56
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Which leads to the use of {{nop}} because no-ones yet had the guts to take an axe to the parser
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2017-09-27 14:00:13
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
and PROPERLY implement headers and footers as seperated from the main text
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2017-09-27 14:00:39
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
so that 'clever' tricks like {{nop}} that rely on very precise behaviour aren't needed
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|
2017-09-27 14:01:02
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
I have been moaning about this for a decade nearly
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|
2017-09-27 14:01:22
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
and as yet no-ones got round to implementing a soloution
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2017-09-27 14:01:42
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<thedj>
|
because messing with the parser is so freaking hard.
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2017-09-27 14:02:13
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Maybe it's time to say the parser needs a complete FROM scrath re-write
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2017-09-27 14:02:18
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
*scratch
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2017-09-27 14:02:51
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Such that the Wikisource LST/transclusion use case is considered and designed into the core from the start
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2017-09-27 14:02:52
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<thedj>
|
it has. It's called parsoid. and then people complained, so they reimplemented almost every bug of the original into parsoid :)
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2017-09-27 14:03:58
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Sometimes I think the Wikimedia community needs to be given a kick in the [REDACTED] to actually fix things, like getting rid of all the clever bug-dependent implementations they've used
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|
2017-09-27 14:05:08
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
There's already a massive change to the parser being planned...
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|
2017-09-27 14:05:14
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Hence the whole thing about LintErrors
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2017-09-27 14:05:15
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<thedj>
|
ShakespeareFan00: yeah they do, they are a bit spoilt. Monopolies stifle innovation.
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|
2017-09-27 14:05:37
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
It's a shame that there seems to be a lack of inertia to actually resolve the issues that will result
|
|
2017-09-27 14:05:43
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
This is not professional
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|
2017-09-27 14:06:04
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
even though the Wikimedia community is mostly volunteers
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|
2017-09-27 14:06:43
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Of course when I've tried to put Phabricator tickets about this, a small clique of users refuses to listen unless it's in a very precise technical format only they seem to understand
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|
2017-09-27 14:07:24
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
which is perhaps understandble when you are dealing with a specifc fault.
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|
2017-09-27 14:08:01
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
It less appropriate when you are a contributor trying to say that more than one fundamentla design flaw needs to be looked at again.
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|
2017-09-27 14:08:28
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<thedj>
|
I think the general opinion is 'don't split tables'.
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2017-09-27 14:08:33
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
thedj
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2017-09-27 14:08:47
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
On other sites that's an option
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|
2017-09-27 14:08:53
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
It's not at wikisource
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|
2017-09-27 14:09:16
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
So as such the parser is "broken" for the Wikisource use case
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|
2017-09-27 14:09:23
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
which would need split tables
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|
2017-09-27 14:09:26
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<thedj>
|
no, on other sites it isn't entirely needed, since they dno't use three seperate content slots.
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|
2017-09-27 14:09:36
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Quite
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|
2017-09-27 14:09:38
|
<thedj>
|
but wikisource does.
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2017-09-27 14:10:09
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Thusly, someone needs to figure out how to PROPERLY implement doing split-content...
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|
2017-09-27 14:10:26
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Ideally the Page header and footer should be seperate fields in how the content is stored
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|
2017-09-27 14:10:42
|
<thedj>
|
they are (for wikisource)
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|
2017-09-27 14:10:51
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
thedj: They are NOT
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|
2017-09-27 14:10:52
|
<thedj>
|
but that also means they need to be balanced
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|
2017-09-27 14:11:01
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<thedj>
|
what is opened, needs to be closed.
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|
2017-09-27 14:11:10
|
<thedj>
|
within that same slot.
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|
2017-09-27 14:11:25
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Currently Wikisource stores the header/footer within a single page text field
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|
2017-09-27 14:11:52
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
In the db model the header/footer/page content should be in different fields... and only composited together when rendered
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|
2017-09-27 14:12:03
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
I.e The page should be composited BEFORE the parser sees it
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|
2017-09-27 14:12:24
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
which is more complex than at present
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2017-09-27 14:12:32
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<thedj>
|
hmm...
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|
2017-09-27 14:12:35
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<thedj>
|
lemme check something
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2017-09-27 14:13:31
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
On a simmilar note, LST and things like <pages> should composite/compose raw first into one document and then PARSE
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2017-09-27 14:14:17
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Currently a parse as rendering approach is used, which leads to some of the issues such as split-tables needing to use {{nop}} lists that have to drop back to raw HTML and so on
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2017-09-27 14:16:45
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
If on the other hand there was a way of effectively deffering the processing of certain things until the page was completely built ....
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2017-09-27 14:17:18
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<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Then the utilliy of LST becomes much greater
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2017-09-27 14:18:01
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<thedj>
|
new WikitextContent(
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|
2017-09-27 14:18:04
|
<thedj>
|
$this->header->getNativeData() . "\n\n" . $this->body->getNativeData() .
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2017-09-27 14:18:04
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<thedj>
|
$this->footer->getNativeData()
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2017-09-27 14:18:07
|
<thedj>
|
);
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2017-09-27 14:18:23
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<thedj>
|
hmm, maybe it's those line breaks.....
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2017-09-27 14:18:53
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<thedj>
|
can you check if the header and footer behavior is the same ?
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|
2017-09-27 14:19:08
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
thedj: I'm not sure what you mean
|
|
2017-09-27 14:19:25
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
I don't have access to the source code... I'm only a disappointed user
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|
2017-09-27 14:20:10
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
I will if you are considering linebreaks note that precisely how line-feeds are handled with LST/and Proofreadpage is another area where confusion arises.
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|
2017-09-27 14:20:42
|
<thedj>
|
the \n might force a <p> between the header and the body. There's not such line breaks between the body and the footer. which means that the same table when divided over body/footer instead of header/body, might show a different result.
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|
2017-09-27 14:20:44
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
I was thinking a while ago, that for things like table-start on a page, there would need to be some way of indicating this externally from the text
|
|
2017-09-27 14:21:03
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Thedj: Hmmm
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|
2017-09-27 14:21:33
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Well I will not that in some use-cases at Wikisource, I've had to put a {{nop}} in the footer, to get it to recognise a |} table end marker
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2017-09-27 14:22:28
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
I had thought one solotuion was to explicitly record for a Page: in the db if there were continued constructs, that would need to be 'balanced' inside Proofread page...
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|
2017-09-27 14:22:47
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Things like nested divs as well...
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|
2017-09-27 14:23:11
|
<thedj>
|
hmm, do you have a ticket reference for this ?
|
|
2017-09-27 14:23:42
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
thedj: Not sure... If there was one it was closed long-ago due to lack of interest, and people saying I hadn't communicated the probelm well wnough
|
|
2017-09-27 14:24:02
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
I won't stop you opening a ticket on this
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|
2017-09-27 14:24:25
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
given that someone already had one open about tracing "Proofread page status" in the database rather than in page text
|
|
2017-09-27 14:25:11
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
A page property to tell the parser/LSt that a page body needs different handling because of 'continued' markup like tables/lists etc.. might be useful
|
|
2017-09-27 14:25:33
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
The other consideration was perhaps to have pre-processor directives like various programming languages have...
|
|
2017-09-27 14:26:25
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
to explicty tell the parser... The content following is a Table row, so override what you would have done and do Y specfically
|
|
2017-09-27 14:27:33
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
thedj: Aside: Currently in proofread page, page numbers are renderd as numbers , unless specfied otherwise on the index page...
|
|
2017-09-27 14:28:01
|
<thedj>
|
wait, why is the nop needed here ? If I remove it, i see no difference..
|
|
2017-09-27 14:28:13
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
thedj: The nop is needed on the Translcusion
|
|
2017-09-27 14:28:24
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
If it's not present , you get broken rows
|
|
2017-09-27 14:28:37
|
<thedj>
|
ah, so tidy cleans it up....
|
|
2017-09-27 14:28:37
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
and missing page numbers...
|
|
2017-09-27 14:28:40
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Yep
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|
2017-09-27 14:28:48
|
<thedj>
|
f'ing tidy
|
|
2017-09-27 14:29:33
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Which is why perhaps there need to be directives to tell tidy "Yes I know what I'm doing [READCTED] my content alone!"
|
|
2017-09-27 14:30:00
|
<thedj>
|
nah, we are getting rid of tidy.. that's what most of that LintErrors is about...
|
|
2017-09-27 14:30:07
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Quite
|
|
2017-09-27 14:30:17
|
<thedj>
|
right, so i think then that it is indeed those \n\n's being added...
|
|
2017-09-27 14:30:48
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Well I would be more generalistic and so it's an issue of when implied whitespace/line feeds should or dhould not be added..
|
|
2017-09-27 14:30:50
|
<thedj>
|
mess with the parser result. tidy fixes it, unless you transclude, because then it has way more things to fix...
|
|
2017-09-27 14:30:51
|
<MichaelSchoenitz>
|
Technical Advice IRC meeting starting in 30 minutes in channel #wikimedia-tech, hosts: @addshore & @C_Fisch (WMDE) - all questions welcome, more infos: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Technical_Advice_IRC_Meeting
|
|
2017-09-27 14:31:16
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
There are some tickets about paragraph breaks in footnotes being a pain as well...
|
|
2017-09-27 14:31:38
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
TheDj: Can I leave this issue with you?
|
|
2017-09-27 14:32:03
|
<thedj>
|
I think the \p is there, because traditionally, the 'old-style' wikisource before there was a convention where people addd multiple linebreaks between the header and the footer....
|
|
2017-09-27 14:32:05
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
I am going to take an extended wiki-break possibly due to getting frustrated trying to solve LintErrors this morning
|
|
2017-09-27 14:32:07
|
<thedj>
|
\n
|
|
2017-09-27 14:32:15
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
thedj: True
|
|
2017-09-27 14:32:24
|
<thedj>
|
between the header and the body
|
|
2017-09-27 14:32:41
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
thedj: I'll also mention template slike this - https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Template:Statute_table/header
|
|
2017-09-27 14:33:03
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
which is used extensively for something like this... - https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Chronological_Table_and_Index_of_the_Statutes
|
|
2017-09-27 14:33:05
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
and which took a LOT of stress to get right
|
|
2017-09-27 14:33:26
|
<thedj>
|
i think this ticket might be related right: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T138604 ?
|
|
2017-09-27 14:33:46
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
That wasn;t a ticket I was ware of...
|
|
2017-09-27 14:33:58
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
So I'm not sure.... but possibly...
|
|
2017-09-27 14:34:11
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Anyway I need to take a break from this before I get annoyed again
|
|
2017-09-27 14:34:19
|
<thedj>
|
do that :)
|
|
2017-09-27 14:34:36
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
thedj: Was it you that was working on moving Proofread page status into the DB so it can be querried via Quarry?
|
|
2017-09-27 14:34:57
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Oh and if you are able...
|
|
2017-09-27 14:35:16
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Proposing a technical meeting SPECFICALLy to handle Wikisource issues is strongly hinted at..
|
|
2017-09-27 14:35:18
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
out
|
|
2017-09-27 14:38:48
|
<thedj>
|
ShakespeareFan00: no, wasn't me
|
|
2017-09-27 14:45:45
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Just thought of something else...
|
|
2017-09-27 14:45:52
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Mediwiki templates can be subst
|
|
2017-09-27 14:47:12
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
However... Many times on Wikisource I've found what I actually needed wasn't so musch a dumb subst as a {{macro:template name}} that effectively did what a subst did, but cleaned up so that only relevant output was placed on the page..
|
|
2017-09-27 14:47:32
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Currently templates using parser functions can't be cleanly subst
|
|
2017-09-27 14:47:50
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
because subst just does a raw copy and replacement...
|
|
2017-09-27 14:48:50
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
The Chronological Table I linked earlier would be a lot cleaner with macro: Statute Table, vs actual Template Calls..
|
|
2017-09-27 14:49:39
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Generally on wiki source , the underlying contents of a table won't change... so in terms of render performance doing what essentialy a call to a 'static' function might be overkill
|
|
2017-09-27 14:50:24
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
As this may be applicable to other wikis, I'd like to know where to propose a {{macro:<template>}} function
|
|
2017-09-27 14:51:32
|
<Aguyintobooks>
|
you need to propose it on mediawiki
|
|
2017-09-27 14:51:40
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Yes..
|
|
2017-09-27 14:51:53
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
But I was wondering on where to seek consensus as to an actual 'need'
|
|
2017-09-27 14:52:14
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
I have some use cases in mind, but they are specfic to Wikisource...not wikis in general
|
|
2017-09-27 14:52:41
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Something where {{macro:<template>}} expnasions would be useful is certain table rows..
|
|
2017-09-27 14:52:43
|
<Aguyintobooks>
|
it is a software issue, therefore a global change - you can seek consensus on any wiki but ultimately WMF IT will deal with it
|
|
2017-09-27 14:53:00
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Do you think what I've described would be useful?
|
|
2017-09-27 14:53:36
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
I.e subst but following the logic of any parser functions, and cleaning up so you only get output, not all the intermediate logic as well
|
|
2017-09-27 14:54:43
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Aguyintobooks: HAve you come across the FizzBuzz game?
|
|
2017-09-27 14:54:59
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Because i might uwse that as my example to explain how macro should work...
|
|
2017-09-27 14:55:17
|
<Aguyintobooks>
|
http://wiki.c2.com/?FizzBuzzTest this?
|
|
2017-09-27 14:55:23
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Yep
|
|
2017-09-27 14:55:56
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Failry simple to do in wikitext template code , I think
|
|
2017-09-27 14:56:02
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
*fairly
|
|
2017-09-27 14:56:08
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
I won't out the example here
|
|
2017-09-27 14:56:09
|
<Aguyintobooks>
|
I do think what you have described would be useful, although only tech people would think its simple :)
|
|
2017-09-27 14:56:39
|
<Aguyintobooks>
|
It would be useful on wikiproject pages as well by the way
|
|
2017-09-27 14:56:56
|
<Aguyintobooks>
|
and complex articles could benefit
|
|
2017-09-27 14:57:00
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
It would also mean that you could do {{macro:ComplexTableRow|A|1|2|3}}
|
|
2017-09-27 14:57:07
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
And what you get is |-
|
|
2017-09-27 14:57:32
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
|style="color: red"||A||1||2||3||
|
|
2017-09-27 14:58:22
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
whereas {{macro:ComplexTableRowB|1|2|3}} gets you |-<lf>|style="color: blue"|B||1||2||3
|
|
2017-09-27 14:58:27
|
<Aguyintobooks>
|
the whole concept could be gradually extended to allow easy use of complex and partly autofilled content in many types of articles and maintenance pages
|
|
2017-09-27 14:58:46
|
<Aguyintobooks>
|
I mean it takes me forever to format a table
|
|
2017-09-27 14:58:51
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Yes... but bear in mind the content is made static
|
|
2017-09-27 14:59:02
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
I.e you don't have {{macro:template}} hanging around
|
|
2017-09-27 14:59:25
|
<Aguyintobooks>
|
true but consider where static content could be useful, eg. a closed AfD discussion
|
|
2017-09-27 14:59:35
|
<Aguyintobooks>
|
any archive page
|
|
2017-09-27 14:59:47
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
Also I can see that this would also allow for thing like UW-series templates which are subst on user talk pages... to be ale to use parser functions cleanly ...
|
|
2017-09-27 14:59:56
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
I.e you macro a warning rather than subst
|
|
2017-09-27 15:00:38
|
<Aguyintobooks>
|
it would be very useful all round
|
|
2017-09-27 15:00:57
|
<MichaelSchoenitz>
|
Technical Advice IRC meeting starting now in channel #wikimedia-tech, hosts: @addshore & @C_Fisch (WMDE) - all questions welcome, more infos: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Technical_Advice_IRC_Meeting
|
|
2017-09-27 15:01:04
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
o/
|
|
2017-09-27 15:01:24
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
*CFisch_WMDE
|
|
2017-09-27 15:01:32
|
<Aguyintobooks>
|
hi
|
|
2017-09-27 15:01:36
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
OKay... Aguyintobooks , looks like I'll have to take the disscussion elsewhere as the channel is in use for more serious matters..
|
|
2017-09-27 15:01:43
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
:-D
|
|
2017-09-27 15:01:50
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
CFisch_WMDE: Sorry if my disscussion delayed the meeting
|
|
2017-09-27 15:01:54
|
<ShakespeareFan00>
|
out
|
|
2017-09-27 15:02:00
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
That would be nice, thanks guys
|
|
2017-09-27 15:02:05
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
no not at all
|
|
2017-09-27 15:02:13
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
5pm CEST sharp ;-)
|
|
2017-09-27 15:02:20
|
<Aguyintobooks>
|
yes at least the important people have seen the idea :)
|
|
2017-09-27 15:02:24
|
<Aguyintobooks>
|
out
|
|
2017-09-27 15:02:54
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
So welcome everybody to the 6th Technical Advice IRC meeting!
|
|
2017-09-27 15:04:00
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
If you have any questions on MediaWiki we can help you with, don't hesitate and ask now! :-D
|
|
2017-09-27 15:04:10
|
<addshore>
|
o/
|
|
2017-09-27 15:05:10
|
<Aguyintobooks>
|
do you guys maintain the AfD system, specifically the twinkle code that allows AfD tagging with one click?
|
|
2017-09-27 15:05:11
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
We have nothing specific on our agenda yet it seems, so we're open for everything
|
|
2017-09-27 15:05:44
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
Aguyintobooks: speaking for me, no
|
|
2017-09-27 15:06:05
|
<addshore>
|
Aguyintobooks: are you looking for it? or?
|
|
2017-09-27 15:06:38
|
<Aguyintobooks>
|
no I just wondered if it was possible to have a AfD log, as there are options for PROD logs and CSD logs
|
|
2017-09-27 15:07:10
|
<addshore>
|
Aguyintobooks: on which wiki? We can probably find the place that you need to ask / request it!
|
|
2017-09-27 15:07:17
|
<TheresNoTime>
|
Aguyintobooks: the code is hosted at https://github.com/azatoth/twinkle, if you look through the commits you'll likely find names of editors to poke :)
|
|
2017-09-27 15:07:17
|
<Aguyintobooks>
|
en-wiki
|
|
2017-09-27 15:07:38
|
<Aguyintobooks>
|
TNT: thanks I will look into that
|
|
2017-09-27 15:07:50
|
<addshore>
|
yup, you can probably file a ticket @ https://github.com/azatoth/twinkle/issues
|
|
2017-09-27 15:08:23
|
<andre__>
|
waves
|
|
2017-09-27 15:08:26
|
<addshore>
|
o/
|
|
2017-09-27 15:08:33
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
o/ andre__
|
|
2017-09-27 15:09:15
|
<Freddy2001>
|
We've founded the Tool Developers User Group with the aim of creating a space where Tool Devs can exchange and support each other.
|
|
2017-09-27 15:09:15
|
<Freddy2001>
|
We want to know, how we can support the communication within the community.
|
|
2017-09-27 15:09:30
|
<eddiegp>
|
Just wondering, what's AfD in this context? :D
|
|
2017-09-27 15:09:39
|
<addshore>
|
eddiegp: article for deletion
|
|
2017-09-27 15:09:59
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
hi Freddy2001
|
|
2017-09-27 15:10:00
|
<eddiegp>
|
Aah, thanks.
|
|
2017-09-27 15:10:12
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
Any Tool Devs here?
|
|
2017-09-27 15:10:57
|
<TheresNoTime>
|
Freddy2001: awesome :) where can I find more information?
|
|
2017-09-27 15:11:23
|
<Freddy2001>
|
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Tool_Developers_Group
|
|
2017-09-27 15:11:24
|
<addshore>
|
I mean, CFisch_WMDE, technically we develop some tools ;)
|
|
2017-09-27 15:11:33
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
addshore true ;-)
|
|
2017-09-27 15:12:34
|
<Freddy2001>
|
we created a survey: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdjRzGEq-29FKL7Rrzgijglh0guSULQgWy1ZbEWn73Kvt-wsw/viewform
|
|
2017-09-27 15:12:49
|
<Aguyintobooks>
|
Is it simply a server issue which causes the sometimes excessive replication lag on Xtools?
|
|
2017-09-27 15:13:17
|
<addshore>
|
Aguyintobooks: do you mean mysql /db replication lag?
|
|
2017-09-27 15:14:21
|
<addshore>
|
xtools uses the replica databases in the labs environment, sometimes they can fall behind the actual databases
|
|
2017-09-27 15:14:51
|
<Aguyintobooks>
|
often by several hours, but sometimes only a few minutes
|
|
2017-09-27 15:15:03
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
Freddy2001: you should probably write a mail on the Wikitech-l mailing list to spread the word and get participants for the survey
|
|
2017-09-27 15:15:14
|
<addshore>
|
Well, these servers did recently get an update, the situation might get better once xtools uses the new ones. https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/labs-l/2017-September/005074.html
|
|
2017-09-27 15:15:29
|
<addshore>
|
But, that will most likely only help query time, I'm not sure about replication
|
|
2017-09-27 15:15:38
|
<musikanimal>
|
we're using the new on at https://xtools.wmflabs.org
|
|
2017-09-27 15:16:05
|
<musikanimal>
|
it does mostly guarantee there won't be any replication lag
|
|
2017-09-27 15:17:06
|
<Freddy2001>
|
thank you CFisch_WMDE, i will write on the mailing list
|
|
2017-09-27 15:19:24
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
You're welcome :-). - Anyone else with questions or requests for advise?
|
|
2017-09-27 15:19:53
|
<addshore>
|
musikanimal: awesome :D
|
|
2017-09-27 15:19:58
|
<freephile>
|
I'm getting a "BadMethodCallException" at https://demo.qualitybox.us/wiki/?requestDebug=true which is running MediaWiki 1.28.2 (438c3d6)
|
|
2017-09-27 15:19:58
|
<freephile>
|
PHP 5.6.31 (apache2handler)
|
|
2017-09-27 15:19:58
|
<freephile>
|
MariaDB 5.5.56-MariaDB
|
|
2017-09-27 15:19:58
|
<freephile>
|
ICU 50.1.2
|
|
2017-09-27 15:19:58
|
<freephile>
|
Elasticsearch 2.4.6
|
|
2017-09-27 15:20:00
|
<freephile>
|
Lua 5.1.5
|
|
2017-09-27 15:20:12
|
<freephile>
|
It's got both SMW and VE
|
|
2017-09-27 15:20:20
|
<freephile>
|
If I disable VE, the error goes away
|
|
2017-09-27 15:20:30
|
<addshore>
|
freephile: do you have a stacktrace?
|
|
2017-09-27 15:20:46
|
<freephile>
|
I have enabled debugLog, but there's no stacktrace
|
|
2017-09-27 15:21:15
|
<freephile>
|
Isn't that the place I would find it?
|
|
2017-09-27 15:21:38
|
<addshore>
|
freephile: which setting exactly did you enable?
|
|
2017-09-27 15:21:39
|
<addshore>
|
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgDebugLogFile ?
|
|
2017-09-27 15:22:09
|
<addshore>
|
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgShowDebug ?
|
|
2017-09-27 15:22:55
|
<smaritasharma__>
|
Hi!, I was trying to create an EventLogging schema on local wiki for the issue https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T175331. I went through the Eventlogging guide, and saw a few examples there, I tried to create a new page named "Schema:mouseclick" and ran a sample schema to test, but its not working. Can you help me on this? :)
|
|
2017-09-27 15:23:01
|
<smaritasharma__>
|
JOIN
|
|
2017-09-27 15:23:18
|
<freephile>
|
https://paste.ubuntu.com/25627664/
|
|
2017-09-27 15:24:07
|
<addshore>
|
freephile: so $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; should mean it prints a stacktrace for you on the page
|
|
2017-09-27 15:24:44
|
<addshore>
|
freephile: I dont see the exception when I view the page now, can you set it up to cause the exception again?
|
|
2017-09-27 15:24:55
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
hi smaritasharma__ !
|
|
2017-09-27 15:25:03
|
<freephile>
|
addshore: right.... and that whole configuration is triggered by ?requestDebug=true
|
|
2017-09-27 15:25:21
|
<addshore>
|
ahhh you have that wrapped in an IF? :)
|
|
2017-09-27 15:25:24
|
<freephile>
|
it's in the Chrome Dev Tools console
|
|
2017-09-27 15:25:31
|
<addshore>
|
ack
|
|
2017-09-27 15:26:14
|
<addshore>
|
freephile: sorry, I thought it was a PHP excepiton not a JS exception!
|
|
2017-09-27 15:26:21
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
looking at the task
|
|
2017-09-27 15:26:54
|
<addshore>
|
freephile: so the exception is caused by PHP, in the end, when the following request is name, https://demo.qualitybox.us/w/load.php?debug=false&lang=en-gb&modules=startup&only=scripts&skin=vector
|
|
2017-09-27 15:26:57
|
<freephile>
|
OK, I wasn't even sure what type of exception it was, but that makes sense now
|
|
2017-09-27 15:27:52
|
<addshore>
|
adding your param enables the debugging: https://demo.qualitybox.us/w/load.php?debug=false&lang=en-gb&modules=startup&only=scripts&skin=vector&requestDebug=true
|
|
2017-09-27 15:28:01
|
<addshore>
|
BadMethodCallException from line 845 of /opt/htdocs/mediawiki/includes/session/SessionManager.php: Sessions are disabled for this entry point
|
|
2017-09-27 15:28:42
|
<addshore>
|
Its possible that if you search for WcvDazvDzr-CMvfaxiFXkwAAAAI (the exception code) in your log files you'll also find more details about the exception
|
|
2017-09-27 15:28:47
|
<freephile>
|
OK, so it is an instance of this https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T134562
|
|
2017-09-27 15:29:21
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
smaritasharma__: I am not an EventLogging expert - but, do you get any errors when executing the code?
|
|
2017-09-27 15:29:35
|
<addshore>
|
freephile: that looks about right
|
|
2017-09-27 15:30:19
|
<freephile>
|
addshore: Thanks, I was heading in that direction, but now I can do so with more certainty :-)
|
|
2017-09-27 15:30:26
|
<addshore>
|
No problem :)
|
|
2017-09-27 15:31:29
|
<addshore>
|
CFisch_WMDE: I am also no EventLogging expert, and have never tried setting it up locally before :/
|
|
2017-09-27 15:31:54
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
:-(
|
|
2017-09-27 15:33:51
|
<addshore>
|
oh, and smaritasharma__ has gone! I missed that!
|
|
2017-09-27 15:34:20
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
ping timeout - damn internetz!
|
|
2017-09-27 15:34:54
|
<eddiegp>
|
That reminds me, I was hinted at Eventlogging too lately, as an example on T174895. That task basically is about "don't create another mysql table for that extension, put the data in json and store it as an wikipage instead". However, I still haven't really got how to do that.
|
|
2017-09-27 15:34:55
|
<stashbot>
|
T174895: Convert ThrottleOverride to use a wiki page for storage - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T174895
|
|
2017-09-27 15:35:32
|
<eddiegp>
|
EventLogging seems to use it's own Schema: namespace, setting editing restrictions for that one.
|
|
2017-09-27 15:36:02
|
<addshore>
|
eddiegp: so I dont think that is talking about using EventLogging, just about EventLogging as an example of an extension that has JSON in a wikipage
|
|
2017-09-27 15:36:15
|
<eddiegp>
|
Yes, that's what I meant.
|
|
2017-09-27 15:36:33
|
<addshore>
|
I wonder if they had eventlogging configured correctly
|
|
2017-09-27 15:36:54
|
<eddiegp>
|
My problem is that I don't really get how to transfer that concept to ThrottleOverride.
|
|
2017-09-27 15:37:09
|
<addshore>
|
eddiegp: so, it was recently done with the Newsletter extension
|
|
2017-09-27 15:37:25
|
<addshore>
|
I can probably find you a gerrit commit that switches from storing everything in db tables to also using page content
|
|
2017-09-27 15:38:18
|
<freephile>
|
interested in example extensions that save data in page content
|
|
2017-09-27 15:39:22
|
<addshore>
|
so the ticket for newsletter was https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T138462 though I'm not sure if there is actually 1 single commit to look at
|
|
2017-09-27 15:39:31
|
<addshore>
|
but it is a fairly simple extension to look at
|
|
2017-09-27 15:39:47
|
<eddiegp>
|
Hmm, it just seems that most examples (EventLoggin, Newsletter) use an own namespace for their storage. I think I'd probably just store a single page for storage, so it seems overkill.
|
|
2017-09-27 15:40:11
|
<eddiegp>
|
s/store/use
|
|
2017-09-27 15:40:20
|
<addshore>
|
It's probably worth giving https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:ContentHandler a read
|
|
2017-09-27 15:40:46
|
<addshore>
|
eddiegp: yes, so right now a page can only have a single content type, that could be wikitext or JSON for example, but a page can not have multiple types
|
|
2017-09-27 15:41:11
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
freephile: what do you mean with "data"? ;-)
|
|
2017-09-27 15:41:32
|
<addshore>
|
also, a namespace can only have 1 content type, (see https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgNamespaceContentModels)
|
|
2017-09-27 15:41:48
|
<freephile>
|
I mean that if I can store json, it could be an (admin) configuration page for an extension
|
|
2017-09-27 15:42:31
|
<addshore>
|
eddiegp: also, there is / was an RFC for mutli content revisions / allowing multiple types of content per page, https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Multi-Content_Revisions, that is currently in development
|
|
2017-09-27 15:43:12
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
freephile: I have no extension in mind, but I bet there are several gadgets around that do things like that
|
|
2017-09-27 15:43:16
|
<addshore>
|
freephile: in theory yes, but there are also multiple reasons that that might be a bad idea :)
|
|
2017-09-27 15:43:36
|
<bawolff>
|
The old way would be to have a blob of data in nediawiki namespace
|
|
2017-09-27 15:43:37
|
<addshore>
|
depending on what level of configuration your talking about
|
|
2017-09-27 15:43:44
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
smaritasharma__: welcome back
|
|
2017-09-27 15:43:45
|
<bawolff>
|
e.g. TitleBlacklist
|
|
2017-09-27 15:43:47
|
<freephile>
|
addshore: right, especially hand editing. But with a form interface, maybe
|
|
2017-09-27 15:44:21
|
<bawolff>
|
if its for a single config page i think thats preferrable to an entire namespace
|
|
2017-09-27 15:44:26
|
<eddiegp>
|
I just don't really want to make up Yet Another Namespace (tm) for a single page.
|
|
2017-09-27 15:44:43
|
<addshore>
|
eddiegp: then, indeed, what bawolff suggests might be the way forward!
|
|
2017-09-27 15:44:48
|
<bawolff>
|
maybe someone should make a generic json config namespace for mediawiki
|
|
2017-09-27 15:44:57
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
So guys anyone confident enough to help smaritasharma__ with EventLogging schema stuff? :-)
|
|
2017-09-27 15:45:22
|
<eddiegp>
|
I thought about that, but that extension requires user right throttleoverride to change that data. How would I prevent users who have editinterface, but not throttleoverride to change it? ;)
|
|
2017-09-27 15:45:39
|
<bawolff>
|
Is that a hard requirement
|
|
2017-09-27 15:46:03
|
<eddiegp>
|
I don't know.
|
|
2017-09-27 15:46:21
|
<bawolff>
|
Id lean towards just using editinterface
|
|
2017-09-27 15:46:57
|
<bawolff>
|
but if it is a hard requirement it is possible to add a hook requiring that right to edit the page
|
|
2017-09-27 15:47:14
|
<addshore>
|
yup!
|
|
2017-09-27 15:47:48
|
<eddiegp>
|
Yeah, should discuss that. It's probably not too nice to share it to editinterface, that'd basically give noratelimit to everybody having editinterface (just set exemption for own ip).
|
|
2017-09-27 15:48:08
|
<eddiegp>
|
Hook sounds great!
|
|
2017-09-27 15:48:20
|
<bd808>
|
is not convinced that adding a db table is a bad thing
|
|
2017-09-27 15:48:26
|
<addshore>
|
bd808: i agree :D
|
|
2017-09-27 15:48:33
|
<bawolff>
|
Everyone with editinterface on wikimedia does have noratelimit afaik
|
|
2017-09-27 15:49:13
|
<bawolff>
|
and in any case editinterface gives you js editing...
|
|
2017-09-27 15:49:19
|
<eddiegp>
|
legoktm: around?
|
|
2017-09-27 15:50:15
|
<eddiegp>
|
Yeah, you're probably right that it wouldn't be that much of a problem.
|
|
2017-09-27 15:50:45
|
<bawolff>
|
Im not opposed to separate tables. If i was writing the extension i would lean towards mediawiki namespace as its much simpler and i dont think the db tables are worth it for this feature, but i think either is a valid approach
|
|
2017-09-27 15:52:12
|
<addshore>
|
8 minuites of this lovely hour session left!
|
|
2017-09-27 15:53:06
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
smaritasharma__: for the EventLogging, I guess since tgr|away created the ticket, he might be able to help ( if he's there )
|
|
2017-09-27 15:53:14
|
<CFisch_WMDE>
|
smaritasharma__: for the EventLogging, I guess since tgr|away created the ticket, he might be able to help ( if he's there )
|
|
2017-09-27 15:53:30
|
<bawolff>
|
eddiegp: also maybe look at mediawiki:autoblock_whitelist . It strikes me as very similar to what you are doing
|
|
2017-09-27 15:53:33
|
<bd808>
|
For anyone who hasn't heard yet -- https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/phame/post/view/70/new_wiki_replica_servers_ready_for_use/ -- there are new wiki replica servers that can be used in Toolforge and other Cloud Services projects
|
|
2017-09-27 15:53:49
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<bd808>
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Quarry has been switched over to use them
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2017-09-27 15:54:16
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<bd808>
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They are faster, but even more importantly they should not have the replica drift problems that we have seen in the past
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2017-09-27 15:54:55
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<eddiegp>
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bawolff: I'll have a look at it, thanks!
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2017-09-27 15:55:10
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<addshore>
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bd808: thats already come up ones this hour :)
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2017-09-27 15:55:20
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<bd808>
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I saw it in backscroll :)
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2017-09-27 15:55:48
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<bd808>
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one more announcement -- https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit/2018 -- the call for papers for DeveSummit closes on Friday.
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2017-09-27 15:57:35
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<addshore>
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bd808: yup, I need to do that!
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2017-09-27 15:57:40
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<addshore>
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and that about wraps up this hour! :)
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2017-09-27 15:57:45
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<brion>
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everybody do your homework! :)
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2017-09-27 15:58:12
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<bawolff>
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points out that org comitte has yet to do theirs :p
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2017-09-27 15:58:29
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<bawolff>
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as in the example paper is still marked coming soon
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2017-09-27 16:00:19
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<brion>
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d'oh
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2017-09-27 16:00:24
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<CFisch_WMDE>
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So the official part of the Technical Advice meeting ends here!
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2017-09-27 16:00:48
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<bawolff>
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Now on to non-technical advice!
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2017-09-27 16:00:50
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<CFisch_WMDE>
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See you all latest next week! o/
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2017-09-27 16:00:55
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<CFisch_WMDE>
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:-D
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2017-09-27 16:01:04
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<freephile>
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thanks!
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2017-09-27 16:01:15
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<bawolff>
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I need advice on what i should have for lunch ;)
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2017-09-27 16:06:04
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<addshore>
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bawolff: burrito ?
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2017-09-27 16:06:41
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<bawolff>
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Burritos are always the correct answer
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2017-09-27 17:46:00
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<ShakespeareFan00>
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https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Main_Page Does something look wrong here?
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2017-09-27 19:02:45
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<davr0s>
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would it be possible to make inter-wiki 'what links here' buttons,
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2017-09-27 19:02:59
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<davr0s>
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e.g. querying 'what commons images point to a wikipedia article', etc.
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2017-09-27 20:04:54
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<quiddity>
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davr0s, for that specific example, there is already a "File usage on other wikis" section on every Commons File: page, e.g. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:JohnStuartMill.JPG#globalusage (with a link at the bottom to the complete listing via Special:GlobalUsage)
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2017-09-27 20:05:08
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<quiddity>
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for non-Files, there's a feature request for that functionality, at https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T128343
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2017-09-27 20:05:19
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<davr0s>
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interesting,
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2017-09-27 20:05:56
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<davr0s>
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by non-files would that cover 'links to and from the page'
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2017-09-27 20:06:45
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<davr0s>
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(i.e. commons has a page with metadata associated with the file, right; so basically if that points at wikipedia pages... it's the reverse query that i'd be interested in)
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2017-09-27 20:07:33
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<davr0s>
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eg imagine if the commons images were marked up with clickable rectangles pointing at articles about whatever is in the image
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2017-09-27 20:07:55
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<davr0s>
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thats something else to ask about
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2017-09-27 20:08:23
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<davr0s>
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i know there's a feature for that, but it's only intended to be used for 'areas of special attention'
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2017-09-27 20:08:42
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<davr0s>
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imagine if the images were pervasively marked up, like a visual dictionary
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2017-09-27 20:22:52
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<quiddity>
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davr0s, I think that feature-request would hypothetically cover the latter, yeah. I would guess (IANAD) it is a complex to implement or maintain, otherwise we would've had it years ago!
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2017-09-27 20:22:54
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<quiddity>
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Re: File annotations, there has been some work done on improving the existing system (https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:FileAnnotations), but it's currently stalled whilst the team works on other things (somanypossibilities,solittletime).
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2017-09-27 20:23:31
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<quiddity>
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(err, that link is the planned improved system, not the existing system)
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2017-09-27 20:24:39
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<davr0s>
|
i remember seeing something,
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2017-09-27 20:25:00
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<davr0s>
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an annotation tool ... but the use case I had in mind conflicted with the guidelines,
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2017-09-27 20:25:32
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<davr0s>
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the use i have in mind would require prioritizing or layering of the image-links
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2017-09-27 20:25:42
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<davr0s>
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image-annotations i mean
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2017-09-27 20:26:20
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<davr0s>
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e.g. to make annotations that aren't strongly highlighted on the image, but they are there if you click (they might show up in tooltips).. they'd just purely be *links*, not *notes*
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2017-09-27 20:26:30
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<davr0s>
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is there somewhere to brainstorm this
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2017-09-27 20:29:14
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<quiddity>
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davr0s, the existing tool you're probably thinking of is https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Gadget-ImageAnnotator -- The place to brainstorm is the talkpage of https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:FileAnnotations/Design
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2017-09-27 20:29:46
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<davr0s>
|
thats it
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2017-09-27 20:30:11
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<davr0s>
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especially what it says in 'Goal' .. "Text and photos and videos are great, but today we don't have the same kind of pervasive hyperlinking in media that makes disappearing down a Wikipedia clicking journey both fun and educational. - From T133526"
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2017-09-27 20:30:12
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<stashbot>
|
T133526: Epic saga: immersive hypermedia (Myst for Wikipedia) - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T133526
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2017-09-27 20:31:06
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<davr0s>
|
that's exactly whats going through my mind: the mass of images in Commons could be a search index for Wikipedia, and vica versa
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2017-09-27 20:31:06
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<davr0s>
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its fun to just trace a word in wikipedia,
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2017-09-27 20:31:17
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<davr0s>
|
if you could just browse though images aswell that would be bette
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