[21:00:46] dapatrick: assuming you're ok with it, I'd like to talk about SVG+HTML for the next ArchCom IRC meeting https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/E325 [21:03:02] if you don't have time for it, I think we could still have a productive conversation. the goal would be to talk through a design that *someone* could use to update the validation code [21:04:51] robla I'm cool with that. But I have a meeting conflict and can't attend. [21:05:01] On 10/26, that is. [21:06:21] hmm.....I need to check daylight savings time issues. this week is a good week to shift this around to accomodate schedules [21:07:04] that said, if you can't attend, it's not the end of the world. you'd be really really valuable to have in this, but it's ok to say "I'm too busy right now" [21:29:19] bd808: (re: your -ops comment) I don't think I have seen any site which allows you access to the TOTP seed [21:30:00] they usually allow you to have multiple seeds, though [21:30:55] not sure if there is a security rationale behind that, it seems like a roughly equal vulnerability [21:44:24] tgr: I guess a potential benefit of multiple seeds (within some reasonable cap) is that you could offer a UI to audit and remove them. That would be nice [21:45:01] where as replaying a seed into another device is bascially a shared password scenario [21:45:33] * bd808 learned to screen capture the initial seed screen everywhere after a botched device upgrade [22:01:12] legoktm: what did we decide about Packagist packages that are community maintained adding the wikimedia and mediawiki accounts as co-maintainers? -- https://packagist.org/packages/mediawiki/page-forms [22:02:10] I have a vague recollection that at least the wikimedia account was only going to be for "official" packages [22:08:20] bd808 SemanticForms is being renamed so i am trying to get it like SemanticForms [22:08:28] Before we fully switch over to PageForms [22:09:26] ok. sounds like something to work on with the SMW folks [22:10:53] bd808 it isen't an semantic extension any more since it can work without semanticmediawiki [22:11:07] that's why it is being renamed and is being done by Yaron Koren but im helping [22:11:19] ok. but... whatever [22:11:50] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T147582 [22:13:22] paladox: does this have anything at all to do with the question I posed to legoktm? i.e. are you asserting that PageForms will be maintained by a WMF team and deployed in Wikimedia production? [22:13:33] Oh nope [22:13:54] Not maintained by wmf, i just adding them since i did not know how to add [22:14:13] I can't parse that sentance [22:14:33] you added the maintainers because...? [22:16:06] I added them since i doint no know who to add. [22:16:33] the people who are maintaining the package [22:16:54] I carn't find the user [22:19:11] bd808: if it's under wikimedia/ or mediawiki/ one of those accounts should be listed as a maintainer. [22:19:38] generally speaking, I want to see all extensions removed from Packagist because the use of composer as a general extension management system was never approved and the RFC was withdrawn. That makes be wary of seeing new ones show up [22:20:18] legoktm: coolio. I see that it is in gerrit so good enough for me [22:20:24] yeah, except we'd like to avoid breaking people's stuffs. [22:21:15] so we keep broken support indefinitely? [22:21:53] I'm not going to tilt at removing it from SMW, not my project. [22:25:29] well, I think we should reconsider it once 1.23 is EOL, because that release still had composer.example.json in the repo [22:27:16] *nod* [22:27:18] or really we should reconsider it once we provide a proper extension management tool :) [22:27:32] git! [22:27:41] * bd808 takes his trolling elsewhere [22:28:07] telling people "you are not allowed to use composer anymore, tell your users to download tarballs and then check for and download dependencies recursively" is not fun [22:28:33] it does not get much better when you replace tarballs with git, either [22:29:04] telling people that their wikis will actually work if they use composer install when you know they really won't isn't much better [22:30:04] but treating MediaWiki like end-user software is probably the real problem [22:30:16] its system software at best [22:30:39] meaning that you need to read a lot of stuff and think about what you are doing to install and maintain it [22:31:17] I don't think at this point that is going to change radically without a radical change in project direction [22:32:44] apt-get install mediawiki! [22:32:48] * tgr ducks [22:32:50] as long as Wikipedia/Wikimedia does the leading on features and development resources the 3rd party users will be stuck following along and having a poor management experience [22:33:03] I think I met the guy who handles that :) [22:33:26] but what you get (I think) is similar to what you get when you apt-get install apache2 [22:33:41] you get a base to build something on, not a polished application [22:33:44] you can do 'vagrant up' and get a fully-featured mediawiki install; I don't see any reason why there couldn't be something equivalent that spins up a production-ready instance on AWS or GCE. [22:34:32] Wikia's valuation is something insane like $600m. Calling them an overglorified wikifarm is a bit of a disservice, but it's not very far from the truth. [22:35:20] there are a few proprietary solutions for that, like bitnami [22:35:21] I think it could make a lot of money, and the WMF should either incubate something like that in-house and then allow it to become an independent business, or it should keep it in house and use it as an alternate source of revenue, supporting or ideally even replacing the fundraiser [22:35:23] they run a fork with pro sysadmins [22:35:58] huh. I though you were pretty strongly against a MW team in WMF the last time the subject came up [22:36:02] but yeah, it seems like a huge missed opportunity to not incubate something like that [22:36:20] I've heard the funding pitch before and I don't hate it [22:36:34] but a lot of people said that a lot of times without any effect so it's unlikely to change at this point [22:36:34] but I don't see Wes signing off on it [22:37:57] none of the MediaWiki Foundation pitches said anything about revenue, it was all about making MediaWiki simple to install by anyone, which (as you said above) is a much larger effort than just hiding the complexity behind an efficient fascade, a la Vagrant. [22:38:45] I am also a hypocrite and a moron, so it could be that [22:39:27] wow. [22:41:51] Sorry. A less loaded way of saying that is: if the positions are indeed incongruent, I may have simply been wrong then, or I was right then and wrong now. [22:43:37] I was pretty excited about a MediaWiki spin-off just before the reorg. I was talking to Erik, Damon, some board members, rob.la about what it might look like and get funding. [22:43:40] yeah, the MWF does suck horribly at pitching [22:45:07] But I lost interest when I figured out that Erik was walking out the door and Damon just wanted someone to blame when projects fell behind schedule. There was too much "MediaWiki sucks" and not much interest at the top levels of discussing where that idea came from. [22:45:23] but then new chapters tend to suck too, for a while [22:45:53] the WMF puts a lot of effort into chapter development, building leadership for a MW spinoff could happen the same way