[00:37:43] tgr: Do you know if there are plans for CommonsMetadata/Mediaviewer to prefer File caption (CDC) if available over the Info template description? As I understand it, "Info/Description" is meant to become an optional superset of the simple captions. But for the sample case users are still more or less required to fill in both if they want to "do it right". [00:47:04] Krinkle: I don't know, risler would be the person to ask. In my personal opinion, captions won't every replace descriptions because they are limited to plain text. [00:48:19] other fields like license or author are more likely targets, but the community has to agree on the structure ( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Structured_data/Modeling is still quite unformed) and do the migration first [01:02:41] tgr: Yeah, i'm not suggesting replacement conceptually, merely that it be valid (and result in good UX) to leave description empty in certain cases. [01:03:18] If I have nothing else to offer as uploader or editor than a brief caption, "where to put it" is the question then. [01:03:40] Right now if it's left empty MMV doesn't see the structured data caption, and also {{INformation}} starts categorising as needing a description. [01:04:21] Without looking at a lot of lengthy pages and internal tasks, I still don't actually know what the intended purpose or difference between them is. The FAQ explains their technical difference but doesn't help me decide what I should do. [01:05:10] It seems all arrows that aren't technical in nature point towards ignoring CDC for now except for when a larger description exists and you want a shorter one, although the shorter one would rarely be used anywhere so it's not particularly motivating as editor to even consider that. [01:51:16] Krinkle: so MMV has a caption and a description area. For caption area the fallback chain is thumbnail caption -> description -> file name, the description area just shows the description if not already shown in the caption area. Stacking the structured caption to the end of the caption area fallback chain would certainly make sense. (There doesn't seem to be a task about it, might make a good one for GCI.) [01:52:19] I don't think it would be an improvement if it took precedence over the other sources for either area. [01:53:31] If your real question is why should you as an uploader bother with structured descriptions, I don't have an answer to that :) [01:55:12] I imagine it's useful for search / image insertion type interfaces which need to be short and can't use links anyway, but that's a pretty limited use case. Also I think the original plan was to offer them as default thumbnail captions if someone inserts a caption without providing one, but again the plaintext restriction doesn't make sense there. [01:56:03] Thanks, I had forgotten about MMV having both. I mainly see it when opening from the file description page, not from articles, when doing Commons work to preview how it renders, and there is no "thumbnail caption" there, so I generally always see description in the caption area and nothing in the description area. [01:56:11] most some Wikibase devs take a dim view on storing wikitext as a structured data field, which really limits SDC's applicability IMO [01:56:24] where it would make sense to prefer CDC caption over {{information}} description, as caption. [01:57:20] I'm generally in favour of not using wikitext in thumb captions, regardless of technical ability. mainly for accessibility reasons so that any links and such are placed in article flow instead. [01:57:51] and e.g. for flexibility to re-use it in other contexts where some words being links can be confusing. [01:59:14] The problem with captions (as in actual thumbnail captions) is that they are not a very good target for centralization in the first case, usually they are somewhat context-dependent [01:59:36] yeah [02:00:05] IMO the best present-day use case would be centralized alt texts, but that's written very differently from a caption so it would have to use a different field [02:00:27] Upon upload, UW requires I fill in description with caption being optional. I suppose it would make sense to invert that long-term once everything has been figured out given it's a superset. [02:01:39] yeah in general making the short version required instead of the long version is probably a good idea [02:02:17] given that uploading to Commons is super time consuming [04:41:43] filed as https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T241914. I retract what I said about GCI, ForeignDBFile makes everything complicated as usual.