[00:05:44] it's really simple legoktm but you're not going to like it ;) [00:06:03] I'm ready [00:06:42] drop sqlite support, you know I've been plugging this for years, partly in response to their stupid attitude to concurrency [00:06:58] oh >.< [00:07:44] there was a previous MW bug which I raised on their mailing list, I can dig it up if you like [00:08:04] the solution seemed to be "stop using MW on sqlite" [00:09:30] well I'm happy to say VE/Parsoid in loopback mode won't work on sqlite, but I would have thought it would be possible to allow concurrency for read queries and only lock on write ones [00:10:15] yes, it should be possible [00:10:34] the bug I dealt with before involved upgrading a transaction from locking read to write [00:12:36] It's possible there's some write query happening that I'm missing causing it to properly lock, I kind of ended up in the weeds in that I'm now fixing my logging setup before going to back to debugging the database [00:12:57] but the impression I got from the mailing list is that they weren't really interested in improving concurrency support, and as long as nothing was crashing, the behaviour was fine with them [00:14:44] hmm, that's kinda problematic, but in most cases if the wiki is only ever being edited by one person (e.g. https://legoktm.com/w/index.php?title=Special:Version ;)) then I suppose it's fine...it's only this loopback thing that's introduced a new problem [00:15:15] there was a (possibly separate?) problem I debugged with trying to view mediawiki on sqlite at all, because the main web request would block the CSS requests [00:16:03] the default config also seems to work around the concurrency problem by creating separate databases for object cache and job queue [00:16:24] and l10n cache [00:16:25] yeah, it's a pile of hacks and I'm not a fan [00:16:47] if you want to maintain SQLite support, be prepared to add to them [00:19:10] but I've had enough of it, the answer to people hitting bugs with MediaWiki on SQLite should really be "don't do that" [00:19:14] mysql is not that hard to install [00:21:01] that's fair [00:21:28] it probably says something that I primarly run my dev wiki with SQLite just to find bugs [00:22:10] running mysql with a table prefix does that too [00:22:22] I'd presume more people are using sqlite than mssql/oracle... and that upset a few poeple [00:23:42] My personal opinion, let's drop it once we have everything in abstract schema and schema changes, so it can be resurrected in an extension (similar to oracle) [00:24:45] that doesn't really fix the problem, it just moves it elsewhere [00:25:10] it makes it "not our problem" :D [00:26:25] like all those extensions we host that people have left for us? [00:30:47] I think we should have a migration tool that moves wikis from one DBMS to another, the best people can do right now is use generic things like SQL dumps [00:31:45] then encourage everyone using anything other than maria/mysql to migrate [00:32:49] I can kind of understand using oracle or mssql, if you want replication and backups then maybe it makes sense to share systems across a corporation [00:33:31] sqlite not so much [00:34:10] BTW. I'm planning to make a RFC today on stop supporting upgrades from 1.5 or 1.10 and limit it to the last two LTS (or one) [00:37:59] sqlite is just simple, don't need to have a db server running in the background, backups are just copying a file, no managing db user/pw accounts, etc. that simplicity just comes at a cost [00:44:41] posted a summary: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T259685#6364683 [04:36:54] sqlite is good for fast unit tests [04:37:15] mysql temp tables are hard to get to avoid disk [04:38:53] legoktm: given the objectcache separation and the GET/POST distinction (used for locking), it should be OK to use sqlite for wikis with very low edit rates (e.g. a handful of hobbyist unlikely to grow anytime soon). Anything more serious than that needs mysql or something. [04:49:02] AaronSchulz: is it documented somewhere all the conditions that will cause SQLite to lock? [05:05:15] for MW? not that I know of [22:00:20] TimStarling: would be nice to add code comments to isFastStaleEnabled() [23:43:59] ok, done at https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/c/mediawiki/core/+/618871 [23:45:19] I still need a reviewer for https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/c/operations/mediawiki-config/+/618646