[00:02:36] StevenW: you should be in #wikimedia :) [19:13:01] Office hours today?¸ [19:14:07] Yes, in 45 minutes [19:14:57] Sven_Manguard: I believe Shipoopi is asking about the office hours with Sue [19:15:02] which...theoretically should be happening now. [19:15:05] Oh. [19:15:25] according to gcal, anyway. [19:15:31] Sorry. I was all excited for the Wikidata office hours. I plan to chew out the staff over the sorry state of Phase II features. It will be fun. [19:15:41] Sven_Manguard: define 'sorry state'? [19:16:05] So of the dozen or so really important features that Phase II is supposed to have, they rolled out two [19:16:16] with no definite timeline on the rest of them. [19:16:16] okay. Is Phase II marked 'complete'? [19:16:20] No [19:16:34] Ironholds, what's your position on Wikimedka? [19:16:35] okay. So...ask them if they have a definite timeline. that's about the extent of the chewing you need. [19:16:52] Shipoopi: sorry? [19:17:07] what's your position at wikimedia? [19:17:09] If you're going to deploy 10% of something, without really letting anyone know that the deployment is only going to have 10% of what everyone was expecting, you're going to need to accept that people are going to be pissed. [19:17:34] Shipoopi: I am the Community Liaison, Product Development, which translates to "when developers do something silly I hit them with a stick" pretty much. [19:17:57] Sven_Manguard: okay, so. [19:17:59] Not entirely true. He also gets to hit the community with a stick sometimes too [19:18:02] * ori-l does something silly. [19:18:07] * Ironholds hits ori-l with a stick [19:18:11] voila. [19:18:16] technically you're outside my realm of responsibility, that was a freebie. [19:18:25] :) [19:18:42] Sven_Manguard: as someone who sort of..I guess observes, a lot of software development, it is impossible to set a timetable for a big project in advance of that project that is accurate. [19:18:58] Ironholds, make something with HTML5 compatible, make sure that specific libraries are integrated into wikimedia [19:19:14] No plan survives contact with the enemy. It also fails to survive contact with unexpected problems integrating things, altering or altered features requirements, new research or user needs, or bugs. [19:19:57] so, your issue is that there was no warning that it wouldn't contain all the features when it wasn't a full release of [thing that contains all the features]. For non-full releases, "not containing everything" should be expected. It's what makes them non-full. [19:20:35] Ironholds: I don't need 100%, but it was missing rather important core features [19:20:37] as for not giving you a timetable on the rest of the features; again, it's not always possible and rarely possible to do so accurately. They could tell you "oh, the other 90 percent will be available on $date" but that's really just setting you up for possible disappointment a second time. [19:20:57] okay. Were all core features promised in the first release of phase II, or whatever release this is? [19:21:11] That was never made explicit, as far as I know [19:21:13] some 'core features' are going to be subject to the aforementioned integration problems, changed requirements or new user needs. [19:21:33] then you can probably legitimately ask them to be more explicit about what they expect each deployment to contain, when they know that. [19:21:38] but I would suggest doing so /politely/. [19:21:48] In my experience threats of violent retribution rarely make developers code faster. [19:21:54] they merely make developers less likely to listen to you. [19:21:55] Oh, I know, I know. I get along well with Denny and Lydia and co. [19:22:08] Why can't wikipedia be stored offline in the user's browser? [19:22:18] without even saving or printing [19:22:20] I was not being entirely on the level when I used "chew out" [19:22:32] Shipoopi: theoretically it could be. most browsers have a "save this page" feature. [19:22:59] but, without saving, I'm not sure if that is possible (or desireable); I am not a developer :) [19:23:02] Yes, i'm pushing for mediawiki to be even more HTML5 friendly [19:23:04] (thank god.) [19:23:23] even if it's HTML5 enabled, it's not enough [19:23:31] * Shipoopi wants web SQL [19:23:46] * Sven_Manguard wants the WYSIWYG editor [19:23:54] Shipoopi: we've got a markup language as an editing interface, terrible communications mechanisms and little cross-wiki integration. [19:23:59] true [19:24:02] it's pure shite [19:24:08] Making things HTML5-friendly is nice, sure. But I think we have more important things to work on :) [19:24:16] it's more flash [19:24:28] (and lua integration. That's going to be fun.) [19:24:33] oh fuck [19:24:33] lua [19:24:36] even a HTML5 tool to grapgically apply image filters [19:25:07] Shipoopi: again, there are slightly bigger fish to fry. [19:25:13] Shipoopi: We can't even convince the users to stop using outdated code like so we've got a ways to go before we're anywhere near ready for HTML 5 [19:25:26] Sven_Manguard: as for plan of next deployment: check out the latest weekly summary ;-) [19:25:28] Bitch please. [19:25:40] Shipoopi: please be polite. First and last warning. [19:25:49] Make me. [19:25:58] alright. [19:26:03] Shipoopi: I already don't like you because of your username and your unaffiliated cloak. I will enjoy watching you get kicked. [19:26:16] See, very fun to watch. [19:26:38] I think I remember him from #wikipedia-en [19:26:42] not a good memory either [19:26:47] Sven_Manguard: the highlight of my week, a couple of weeks ago, actually; some admin goes "there's a troll in -en-help" [19:26:55] so I have ops in there. I go investigate. [19:27:07] the moment I enter the channel: "oh fuck, Ironholds." User /parts. [19:27:16] ha ha ha [19:27:50] Lydia_WMDE: can you link me to it please [19:28:10] * Sven_Manguard growls angrily at the TV playing the FC Barcelona game [19:28:24] Sven_Manguard: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Status_updates/2013_02_15 [19:28:27] thanks [19:28:29] nü [19:28:31] np even [19:28:41] Ironholds: rofl [19:29:42] Lydia_WMDE: you mean https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Current_sprint ? [19:29:42] anyway, I'll quiet down :). office hours time! [19:29:58] Sven_Manguard: no further down in the page i linked [19:30:06] Ironholds: still 30 mins [19:30:23] My spider-senses be tingling. [19:31:08] "Ability to add items to claims by their ID" Oh thank you [19:31:19] Sven_Manguard: current sprint page hasn't been updated yet this week because everyone was so busy :( [19:31:28] :) i knew you'd like that one [19:31:32] although the item two down "More results in the entity selector" fixes the same issue [19:31:38] yes [19:31:47] both are needed though i think [19:32:12] What I'd really like is for the drop down to sort itself by number of times an item is used, but that seems like a monstrous drain of resources [19:32:29] i'd guess so yes [19:32:36] but search should get smarter soon [19:32:43] jens is working on that [19:33:40] sup fools [19:33:40] Alteratively, we could mark certain items as "priority" so that when I search for "Miami", the city in Florida appears in the top, instead of not even in the top seven, since persumabally that's what 95% of people looking for Miami in the Statements interface will be looing for [19:34:15] London is worse, IIRC, with something like 25 items all named London [19:34:16] Sven_Manguard: the latest idea is to make this depend on the number of language links - pretty stupid but cheap to do [19:34:21] and should work most of the time [19:34:24] Lydia_WMDE: yeah [19:35:08] * Lydia_WMDE has to finish some stuff quickly [19:35:12] talk to you in 25 [19:35:17] kk [19:35:24] ok* [19:47:05] Lydia_WMDE: please ping me when you get back [19:47:22] Sven_Manguard: here [19:48:17] Sven_Manguard: see http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lhota_(rozcestník) - most common name of village in CZ [19:50:07] Lydia_WMDE: in the dev's list of implementation priorities, how high up are 1) adding in qualifiers and 2) adding in the ability to add strings of plain text in the sources field for statements [19:50:25] both very high [19:50:55] what's higher up on the list? [19:51:05] uff you'd need to ask denny i fear [19:51:23] who hopefully shows up soon :) [19:53:23] speaking of Denny_WMDE [19:53:26] hey [19:53:44] hi all [19:53:47] hey Sven_Manguard :) [19:53:48] hi there [19:53:50] nice to see you again [19:53:57] hi Micru, hi Denny [19:54:00] Denny_WMDE: in the dev's list of implementation priorities, how high up are 1) adding in qualifiers and 2) adding in the ability to add strings of plain text in the sources field for statements [19:54:06] err... [19:54:10] what's higher up on the list? [19:54:23] can we move that up to the office hour later? :) [19:54:27] Sven_Manguard: I believe Lydia just answered that ;p [19:54:38] Ironholds: [14:50] Lydia_WMDE uff you'd need to ask denny i fear [19:54:44] ah, my bad [19:54:47] my brain is confabulating. [19:54:58] eat some buttered rye toast [19:55:16] but just a quick, they are very high up [19:55:26] we are already working on them [19:57:20] hey rschen7754 [19:57:25] hi [19:57:42] \o/ [19:58:55] Denny_WMDE: one more thing before the meeting officially starts, if I could? [19:59:42] sure, fire [20:00:06] How hard would it be to allow admins to bypass the javascript interface and directly edit pages? I ask because sometimes when something is added it becomes unmodiable and unremovable, and so the only way we've been able to fix them is by deleting the item and doing selective resotoration [20:00:39] so when situations like that occur, it'd be nice to have a way to directly cut out the offending statement [20:00:55] my father reported difficulty using Wikidata from IE [20:01:05] mind you, it will become much less painful once editing statements has edit summaries [20:01:35] i'll let Denny answer this one and then we'll officially start [20:01:51] to be more specific, my father reported seeing *no edit links whatsoever* on Wikidata using IE [20:02:11] Dragonfly6-7: what IE? [20:02:29] ....... I don't actually know. If you want, I can go find out. [20:02:35] Dragonfly6-7: lbenedix1: can we move this to in a few mins? [20:02:41] Dragonfly6-7: more importantly, is he aware of that all the editing has to be done through the javascript interface, so the buttons are in different places [20:02:49] * Sven_Manguard sees Lydia_WMDE's post, goes silent :D [20:02:55] ;-) [20:03:28] * Lydia_WMDE wonders if Denny_WMDE fell off his chair [20:03:31] :D [20:03:38] hopefully not! [20:03:48] ah [20:03:50] do we start? [20:03:58] * yurik thought Denny_WMDE hovers godlike in midair [20:04:01] Denny_WMDE: http://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q16&action=history is the relevant link to my question, for later [20:04:18] i actually am not sitting in a chair right now [20:04:19] * Sven_Manguard tosses Lydia_WMDE a chromed gavel [20:04:19] yes let's start and then get to Sven_Manguard's question [20:04:23] yurik: lol [20:04:24] well [20:04:26] but i will not comment more on that :) [20:04:28] welcome everyone! [20:04:36] who's here for the office hour? [20:04:44] before we start, let us all rise and give a standing ovation to the wikidata team :) [20:04:52] (blush) [20:04:53] * jem- agrees [20:04:54] awww you're too sweet yurik [20:05:05] \o/ [20:05:07] I'll pass on that, standing makes me look fat :P [20:05:08] Lydia_WMDE: note that down for the monday daily :) [20:05:14] we definitively should pass that on :) [20:05:17] ;-) will do [20:05:24] And I'm here for the office hour, of course [20:05:30] alright awesome [20:05:41] Denny_WMDE and i wanted to do this one a bit differently [20:05:44] I'm here for the office hour too [20:05:50] we wanted to start with a short status update [20:05:53] great to have you with us Micru_Wikisource [20:05:56] and then go to questions and discussions [20:06:10] Denny_WMDE: do you want to or shall i? [20:06:13] * yurik gives the talking pillow to Lydia_WMDE [20:06:17] :D [20:06:17] I'll do it :) [20:06:20] cool [20:06:24] stage is yours then [20:06:38] as you know we have started collecting language links last year [20:06:59] the awesome editor community and a few hard-working bots have created a huge data set of language links [20:07:09] that have been deployed to the hungarian wikipedia on january 14 [20:07:12] <3 [20:07:23] and received there with great enthusiasm [20:07:23] ^ for the editors [20:07:38] two weeks later, we went to italian and hebrew [20:07:47] hebrew allowed us to see if our right-to-left works [20:07:50] (\o/) [20:07:57] and italian is four times as big as hungarian [20:08:06] and one of the biggest wikipedias in general [20:08:13] and everything went well [20:08:17] i am here for office hours too [20:08:27] this week we turned the switch on the english wikipedia [20:08:29] hey HenriqueCrang [20:08:46] I must say that while I called that it would not deploy correctly to English the first time, I'm pleasantly surprised that you managed it so quickly [20:09:02] the deployment had a few hiccups, yes [20:09:14] less than most on that project though :D [20:09:45] the hiccups were not related to wikidata mostly [20:10:08] on monday, the issue was that we also switched on support for languaglinks to the min.wikipedia [20:10:18] and that lead to some trouble with caches [20:10:25] so that we had to call a stop on deploying wikidata [20:10:34] Hello [20:10:38] on tuesday we actually went life for a few minutes [20:10:44] before we were switched off again [20:10:56] because of unrelated issues with the infrastructure [20:11:07] It wasn't best idea to run new Wikipedia in the same time as deploying WIkidata... [20:11:18] JAnD: agreed [20:11:26] IE 8.0.6001 [20:11:29] do you need more details> [20:11:34] we didn't expect there to be interactions, but heck, it happened [20:11:41] Dragonfly6-7: we'll get to that when Denny_WMDE is finished :) [20:11:54] so finally on wednesday we got deployed on english wikipedia [20:11:59] and so far everything seems fine [20:12:10] the bots seemed to have stopped reverting removal of language links [20:12:20] great! [20:12:23] and the servers are not measuring increased load [20:12:23] we had to block on late last night [20:12:28] *one [20:12:35] yurik: ah, interesting to know [20:12:58] we measure so far an increase of 0.2% cpu resources due to wikidata [20:13:13] but that is not taking into account the reduction due to less parsing due to less wikitext [20:13:21] so it might even out, no one knows right now :) [20:13:42] the plan is to deploy to all the other wikipedias on march 6 [20:13:52] might be hard to measure with Lua being deployed soon [20:14:10] initially it was planned for february 27, but due to staff availability we had to move it a bit [20:14:23] :'-( [20:14:27] yurik: very true. but Lua opens also a great new world [20:14:36] all 285? [20:14:44] brave new world you mean ;) [20:14:55] Scott_WUaS: yes [20:14:59] well, the ones left. all of them, yes [20:15:15] 282 should be left now :) [20:15:25] at the same time we have deployed to much criticism and praise a first set of features regarding phase 2 [20:15:30] ok [20:15:36] on wikidata.org itself [20:15:45] Denny_WMDE will manually edit all 285 settings files! such dedication!!! [20:15:54] and in your inbox too Denny_WMDE :P [20:16:00] yurik: actually aude will do that :) [20:16:31] on monday we will have a small update of the site that we are currently working hard on [20:16:49] we have a bit of a timing issue here, because some of the code is not finished yet, and we want to run proper testing before [20:16:57] but moving is hard due to other reasons [20:17:08] what we expect to have after monday deployment: [20:17:19] * diffs for phase 2 edits in the history [20:17:26] * Sven_Manguard cheers [20:17:35] * automatic created comments for the diffs [20:17:47] * ability to set items directly by their ID [20:18:00] * and have the item selector widget with paging [20:18:12] if we are lucky, they might be one or two more features [20:18:18] but i don't want to promise yet [20:18:19] sounds great :) [20:18:26] some people are working this weekend to make that happen [20:18:31] so huge thanks to them [20:18:36] mind telling us what other features we *might* get? [20:18:44] in a second :) [20:18:49] so some stats: [20:18:55] more than 4 million items so far [20:19:05] more than 1000 active editors, which is really cool! [20:19:09] 12 confirmed bots [20:19:31] you are doing amazing work on defining properties: currently available properties https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:List_of_properties [20:19:42] and we can already see some external usage of wikidata [20:19:49] which I am particularly excited about [20:20:03] like magnus manskes work on visualising genealogy data from wikidata [20:20:07] http://toolserver.org/~magnus/ts2/geneawiki/?q=Q1339 [20:20:17] i'm worried about the external use with the API that's bound to change :( [20:20:22] and OmegaWiki using Wikidata links for their articles too :) [20:20:41] ah that's me :) [20:20:45] so that was my quick rundown of the status [20:20:52] it's awesome, kipcool [20:20:56] \o/ [20:21:10] i'll take questions andmake a list of them so we can answer them one after the other [20:21:13] now you already started questions [20:21:15] Denny_WMDE: FYI we've preapproved at least a dozen additional properties once we get things like TimeValue and StringValue [20:21:17] oooo! prettyyyy [20:21:22] *external* use ? [20:21:28] Lydia_WMDE: will collect questions [20:21:42] and i will answer them in the order she gives me the questions [20:21:43] :) [20:21:50] Dragonfly6-7: use of wikidata data outside wikimedai [20:21:53] *wikimedia [20:21:54] Denny_WMDE: my earlier one [20:21:56] live, great editors rock! :) [20:22:00] about direct editing [20:22:10] bypassing the javasript for admins? [20:22:42] Lydia_WMDE - yes, that part I understand. But ... what could it be used *for*? I'm missing something. [20:22:50] * jem- rises hand for a question [20:22:58] Dragonfly6-7: http://toolserver.org/~magnus/ts2/geneawiki/?q=Q1339 for example [20:23:03] jem-: shoot :) [20:23:03] [15:00] Sven_Manguard How hard would it be to allow admins to bypass the javascript interface and directly edit pages? I ask because sometimes when something is added it becomes unmodiable and unremovable, and so the only way we've been able to fix them is by deleting the item and doing selective resotoration [20:23:04] [15:00] Sven_Manguard so when situations like that occur, it'd be nice to have a way to directly cut out the offending statement [20:23:56] jem-: while denny is writing let me know what your question is [20:24:01] Ok [20:24:04] So regarding this on: someone could actually write a tool for that already [20:24:19] Here I go [20:24:20] there are API calls for getting the JavaScript directly [20:24:23] and to setting it as well [20:24:49] I am not completely sure this will actually clean up the stuck pages [20:24:57] we actually have not figured out what is going on there [20:25:07] and we are very much aware of these weird issues [20:25:28] actually, it is a good idea, we should try to get them unstuck with the respective API call [20:25:41] well as Canada (q16) proves, deletion and selective restoration *does* work, so the corruption is restricted to individual edits, it doesn't corrupt everything [20:25:42] I'll ask one of the developers to help you with that next week [20:25:51] thanks Denny_WMDE :D [20:26:04] Lydia_WMDE: please remind me [20:26:07] ok [20:26:09] will do [20:26:14] I think it can be useful to have a common "Proceeding manual for Phase I activation" for the projects; the best way to get a list of the articles in which to remove interwikis = which are already "present" in wikidata, and even some bot code to do it; the best way to stop interwiki bots in those articles, if necessary (edit filter...?). Has this been thought? [20:26:16] * Sven_Manguard cedes the floor to jem- [20:26:20] nope ;-) [20:26:24] :) [20:26:25] first Dragonfly6-7 ! [20:26:35] Dragonfly6-7: you had issues with not being able to edit in IE [20:26:44] btw: the User interface guidelines say: "User interface components may be implemented using jQuery UI (or other JavaScript libraries), provided that critical functions are still accessible with JavaScript disabled" [20:26:57] the symptoms you described, Dragonfly6-7, sounded like if JavaScript was turned off [20:27:08] are you sure, JS works on your dad's computer? [20:27:09] Lydia_WMDE - well, my father did. [20:27:17] IE 8.0.6001.18702 [20:27:25] we are testing against IE [20:27:27] well it worked when he switched to firefox, right Dragonfly6-7 ? [20:27:32] Sven_Manguard - correct. [20:27:41] i think also version 8. [20:27:42] hmm [20:27:50] we haven't seen that one yet [20:28:00] here are the questions: [20:28:04] it's probably best to check if JS is enabled and then debug further if not [20:28:06] is your father logged in or not? [20:28:17] does your father have javascript enabled or not? [20:28:26] this would help us a lot with getting to a solution [20:28:50] Denny_WMDE: additionally, there are two pages on the project that are full protected. Would that effect his issue? [20:28:55] Dragonfly6-7: if oyu have those feel free to come to #wikimedia-wikidata to talk further about it :) [20:29:05] sorry to interject - could someone stop Xqbot please? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:1980s_in_Kenya&diff=prev&oldid=538604055 [20:29:05] feel free to either post a bug on bugzilla with that data, or to send an email, or to contact Lydia_WMDE in another way. she will make sure that the bug doesnt get lost [20:29:28] langlinking categories are not yet supported from what i can see [20:29:35] I just tested with IE6, not working. I get [[object Object]] instead of the edit-links [20:29:38] Sven_Manguard: ah, you mean he might have went to a protected page? [20:29:46] maybe [20:30:10] lbenedix1: Dragonfly6-7 was mentioning IE8 [20:30:18] Sven_Manguard: yes, that could be [20:30:19] I know Canada is full protected because if you touch a statement, it braks. Other people might have locked down other pages [20:30:31] breaks* [20:30:38] yeah, that could be [20:30:39] would a https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:PropertiesByTitle page be considered as the number of properties grow, with a simple search interface like https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:ItemByTitle? [20:30:45] yurik: looking [20:30:50] Emw: added to the list [20:31:04] Denny_WMDE, I would like to update you on the IEGrant that had some parts related to Wikidata, may I? [20:31:06] Dragonfly6-7: does this answer your question? [20:31:22] Micru_Wikisource: as soon it's your queue [20:31:29] Lydia_WMDE will call you out :) [20:31:36] muahahah [20:31:37] :D [20:31:51] ok next one then: [20:31:53] [21:26:14] I think it can be useful to have a common "Proceeding manual for Phase I activation" for the projects; the best way to get a list of the articles in which to remove interwikis = which are already "present" in wikidata, and even some bot code to do it; the best way to stop interwiki bots in those articles, if necessary (edit filter...?). Has this been thought? [20:31:53] ok, good to know :) [20:32:03] yurik: there is nothing wrong with that edit is there? [20:32:32] jem- I agree. But I also think that this is something the community should take care of [20:32:35] it removed tr: link, but there is no such article in wikidata [20:32:37] oh yes there is [20:32:40] jem-: there is actually already such a page [20:32:46] it could use more work though [20:32:47] if there is anything you need help from the devs, let us know and we will provide help [20:32:49] i'll get a link [20:32:58] I know about the FAQ [20:32:58] jem-: please let me know what you want me to add to it, since I wrote the help page, IIRC [20:33:16] well, I wrote a help page, we need several more [20:33:19] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Deployment_Questions [20:33:24] but I won't have that kind of time until May [20:33:28] Yes, that FAQ [20:33:30] we try to avoid, as devs, to tell the communities what they have, should, or should not do :) [20:33:31] this will be linked to in the note to all village pumps about the deployment [20:33:42] But I miss some concrete information for the project admins [20:33:54] Like the one I pointed out before [20:34:03] jem-: please add :) i'm happy to help answer questions [20:34:05] Lydia_WMDE, Denny_WMDE - I've gone into some detail on #wikimedia-wikidata [20:34:08] jem-: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Help:Editing [20:34:20] Dragonfly6-7: thx - will get to it after office hour, ok? :) [20:34:26] let me know what's missing from that [20:34:37] sure [20:34:44] I'll do, Sven_Manguard [20:35:01] by PM or talk page message please, preferably the latter [20:35:08] I'm user:Sven Manguard [20:35:24] Sven_Manguard: thx btw to you and everyone else writing those help pages [20:35:28] much apprechiated [20:35:31] :D [20:35:35] and making great presentations [20:35:39] yes! [20:35:45] and imaginative images [20:35:49] :D [20:35:50] and so much more :) [20:36:01] ok - next one? [20:36:08] and also for criticizing the project [20:36:13] i can do that! [20:36:17] ok, I'll try [20:36:18] Well, by the way, are you going to put a message on all the village pumps? [20:36:29] jem-: yes i will [20:36:32] Lydia_WMDE: and I were writing it [20:36:36] jep :) [20:36:38] need the final review i guess [20:36:42] Ok, perfect then [20:36:50] should i go? [20:36:57] go yurik [20:36:59] next question? [20:37:00] Lydia_WMDE has the list [20:37:01] non-main namespace support - https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:ItemByTitle?site=enwiki&page=Category%3A1980s+in+Kenya&submit=Search fails [20:37:02] or okay [20:37:05] I'm preparing [20:37:06] :-) [20:37:13] next one: [21:30:39]