[15:50:19] <Nemo_bis>	 btw, are we sure it's only WMF's office hours? I thought others used the channel too
[15:51:29] <James_F>	 Nemo_bis: Fixed.
[15:52:37] <Nemo_bis>	 wiki page done too
[16:54:13] <siebrand>	 Wikimedia Language Engineering team office hours here in 5 minutes.
[16:54:31] <YuviPanda>	 hello siebrand :)
[16:54:38] * siebrand  greets YuviPanda 

[16:54:49] * YuviPanda  settles into back seat to 'just watch'

[16:55:02] <siebrand>	 YuviPanda: are you done being educated in the Indian education system already, or what?
[16:55:15] <YuviPanda>	 siebrand: I'm done writing exams :)
[16:55:25] <YuviPanda>	 as for being done educated, you never know until the results are out
[16:55:34] <YuviPanda>	 but I never have to go sit in 'classes' enymore
[16:55:35] <YuviPanda>	 so yay
[16:55:48] * siebrand  hugs YuviPanda 

[16:55:56] * YuviPanda  hugs siebrand

[16:55:57] <YuviPanda>	 thanks :)
[16:56:05] <YuviPanda>	 we'll see each other soon enough i think
[16:56:08] <siebrand>	 great to hear my frined.
[16:56:09] <siebrand>	 friend
[16:56:14] <siebrand>	 I hope so!
[16:56:20] <siebrand>	 Hong Kong August?
[16:57:02] <YuviPanda>	 siebrand: indeed
[16:57:06] <YuviPanda>	 Hong Kong August :)
[16:57:16] <YuviPanda>	 and hopefully maybe September allstaff too
[16:57:19] <siebrand>	 Too long, but alas...
[16:57:26] <YuviPanda>	 better than nothing :)
[16:58:23] <Nikerabbit>	 hello
[16:58:43] * siebrand  greets Nikerabbit 

[16:58:50] <Nikerabbit>	 nice to meet you
[16:59:00] * siebrand  greets kart_ 

[16:59:19] <Nemo_bis>	 hi bawolff
[16:59:29] <bawolff>	 Hi
[16:59:36] <kart_>	 hola siebrand
[16:59:37] <siebrand>	 We're starting in 2 minutes.
[16:59:50] * bawolff  is excited to hear what the lang team has been up to :)

[17:00:47] * siebrand  greets pginer 

[17:00:59] <pginer>	 hi siebrand
[17:01:31] <chrismcmahonbrb>	 hello, thanks Siebrand for the comment on the ULS browser test earlier today
[17:02:04] <siebrand>	 === Wikimedia Language Engineering Office Hour - Start ===
[17:02:10] <siebrand>	 chrismcmahonbrb: np
[17:02:15] <siebrand>	 Hello, Welcome to the office hour of the Wikimedia Language Engineering Team.
[17:02:34] <siebrand>	 My name is Siebrand Mazeland and I am Product Manager Language Engineering at the Wikimedia Foundation.
[17:02:45] <marktraceur>	 Oh, hey, analphabet. :)
[17:02:53] <Nemo_bis>	 welcome analphabet
[17:02:58] <siebrand>	 The other members of our team present today are:
[17:03:02] <analphabet>	 heh, hey there :)
[17:03:08] <siebrand>	 Niklas Laxström / Nikerabbit / Developer
[17:03:15] <siebrand>	 Pau Giner / pginer / Interaction Designer
[17:03:21] <siebrand>	 Kartik Mistry / kart_ / Developer
[17:03:27] <siebrand>	 A few team members are absent: Alolita, Amir, Runa, Santhosh
[17:03:37] <siebrand>	 Our last office hour was held on May 8 2013. The logs are at:
[17:03:47] <siebrand>	 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours/Office_hours_2013-05-08
[17:03:55] <Nemo_bis>	 hi reversed ralgis
[17:03:55] <siebrand>	 Today I expect we will mainly talk about the Universal Language Selector.
[17:04:02] <siebrand>	 We have begun making this available in all Wikimedia wikis.
[17:04:07] <siebrand>	 After that we would be happy to answer any questions.
[17:04:19] <siglar>	 Hi, Nemo_bis
[17:04:21] <siebrand>	 If you'd like to send in your questions before the Q&A, please send them to me as a private message.
[17:04:35] <siebrand>	 We would also like to know who came here because of the invitations we sent in the differnet mailing lists.
[17:04:39] <siebrand>	 Please say something now if you're paying attention :).
[17:04:49] <siebrand>	 o_O
[17:04:55] <bawolff>	 !
[17:05:02] * marja  is watching because of a message on an IRC channel

[17:05:02] <Elfix>	 ?
[17:05:22] * marktraceur  waits for siebrand to start

[17:05:26] * siebrand  is waiting for the interrobang to test unicode support in IRC clients...

[17:05:39] <bawolff>	 I showed up due to siebrand's note on #mediawiki , not due to mailing list post....
[17:05:48] <siebrand>	 Two days ago we replaced the MediaWiki extensions Narayam and WebFonts with ULS on
[17:05:52] * marktraceur  showed up because he's always in -office

[17:05:54] <siebrand>	 84 wikis where either of them was available.
[17:06:10] <siebrand>	 Given the current feedback, it seems this has not caused much confusion.
[17:06:14] <mindspillage>	 siebrand: why would you be interested in that‽
[17:06:24] <siebrand>	 There are 4 rounds of deployment that will follow.
[17:06:29] <siebrand>	 mindspillage: excuse me?
[17:06:39] <mindspillage>	 siebrand: note ending punctuation. :-)
[17:06:48] <siebrand>	 Next Tuesday, in phase 2 ULS will be made available on Wikipedias 11-20 by size.
[17:07:01] <siebrand>	 mindspillage: some efforts to see what the level of engagement in this meeting is...
[17:07:14] <siebrand>	 96 people in channel, ~10% active.
[17:07:22] <siebrand>	 Languages involved are:
[17:07:27] <siebrand>	 Portuguese (pt), Chinese (zh), Vietnamese (vi), Ukrainian (uk), Catalan (ca), Waray-Waray (war), Norwegian (Bokmål) (no), Cebuano (ceb), Finnish (fi), Persian (fa)
[17:07:54] <Nemo_bis>	 mindspillage: and an ‽ was recently sacrificed in an extension, together with a dragon
[17:07:54] <mindspillage>	 (sorry, intended humorous use of interrobang did not come off as intended!)
[17:08:14] <Coren>	 ‽
[17:08:17] <siebrand>	 With this second phase, we are mainly adding volume (in page views) to the deployment of ULS
[17:08:44] <siebrand>	 We are also adding it to wikis where no similar language tools have been made available before, to see if it causes confusion
[17:08:55] <siebrand>	 or if any other usability issues may surface.
[17:09:13] <siebrand>	 In phase 3, in two weeks, we will make ULS available in all Wikimedia wikis without language versions (Wikispecies, special purpose wikis, etc.).
[17:09:24] <siebrand>	 In 3 weeks (phase 4) we plan to make it avaiablel on English language Wikipedia
[17:09:35] <siebrand>	 The week after that, all other wikis will get ULS (phase 5)
[17:09:44] <siebrand>	 We have created some pages with information for users.
[17:09:45] * Nemo_bis  wonders if Beria_ is the only pt user present, and qgil only ca

[17:10:07] <siebrand>	 Announcement: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Announcement_Universal_Language_Selector
[17:10:18] <siebrand>	 Feature description: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Universal_Language_Selector
[17:10:21] <siebrand>	 FAQ: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Universal_Language_Selector/FAQ
[17:10:31] <siebrand>	 The above pages can be translated on-wiki.
[17:10:35] <siebrand>	 It may be helpful if you translate one or more pages and point your local community to it.
[17:11:24] <siebrand>	 Are there any questions or experiences to be shared?
[17:12:26] * siebrand  thanks Coren for the interrobang.

[17:12:43] <Coren>	 (Mine was, like, the fourth one)  :-)
[17:13:30] <siebrand>	 Okay. No questions or comments can mean many things...
[17:14:15] <siebrand>	 Anyway, we're here for another 45 minutes, so if you're reading docs, asking your question later is fine, too.
[17:14:19] <chrismcmahonbrb>	 have you encountered any performance issues with ULS, for example with caching?
[17:14:26] * analphabet  is also paying attention btw :P

[17:14:32] * ori-l  dittos

[17:14:39] * YuviPanda  dittos

[17:14:41] <kart_>	 Translating Feature description and FAQs will be very helpful. Noted. Thanks!
[17:14:52] <YuviPanda>	 siebrand: are you using EventLogging with ULS?
[17:15:24] <YuviPanda>	 (or planning on, at least)
[17:15:34] <Nikerabbit>	 YuviPanda: yes we are planning to
[17:15:41] <siebrand>	 chrismcmahonbrb: ULS is all JavaScript. A feature like using accept language to set a user's UI language is not yet in use on Wikimedia wikis.
[17:15:55] <siebrand>	 We are looking into making that possible, but there is no timeline for it yet.
[17:16:11] <bawolff>	 Can't that be done in js?
[17:16:21] <Nikerabbit>	 nope
[17:16:32] <bawolff>	 As in doesn't commons have a script that does that in js?
[17:16:35] <Nikerabbit>	 most of the pages are still generated server side, inclusing the messages
[17:16:42] <siebrand>	 YuviPanda: We are planing to add event logging. IN the sprint that we are currently in (started y'day, for two weeks), we will identify the actions we want to log, and the schema that it needs.
[17:16:52] <siebrand>	 In the sprint after, we will implement the logging.
[17:17:21] <Nemo_bis>	 bawolff: yes, Commons and now Wikidata stick uselang= to every link
[17:17:48] <Nikerabbit>	 hi Micru
[17:18:03] <Micru>	 hi Nikerabbit
[17:18:13] <YuviPanda>	 siebrand: nice. Will ping you to see your schemas in a couple  of weeks then :)
[17:18:28] <siebrand>	 ULS is not aware of the uselang parameter, and implements setlang, which is sticky.
[17:18:29] <Nikerabbit>	 YuviPanda: I can ping you too once we have something
[17:18:30] <YuviPanda>	 siebrand: Nikerabbit any possibility of getting some time for the issues for Android export on the Translate extension?
[17:18:33] <YuviPanda>	 Nikerabbit: thanks!
[17:18:43] <siebrand>	 (i.e. it really changes the user preference for the UI language of a logged in user).
[17:18:59] <siebrand>	 On WIkimedia wikis, settling does nothing for anonymous users.
[17:19:08] <Nikerabbit>	 setlang*
[17:19:09] <siebrand>	 settling = setlang (autocorrect :()
[17:20:14] <siebrand>	 Does that clarify things on the caching side?
[17:20:44] <bawolff>	 So is the issue with using accept-language, that the uls code only runs at javascript side, by that time the language for current page is already set, and in order to change it based on accept-lang it would have to reload the page?
[17:21:00] <Nikerabbit>	 yep
[17:21:36] <Nikerabbit>	 and somehow initiate a session or other way to bypass the usual cache
[17:21:47] <bawolff>	 It could still use accept-lang to present a "Are you sure you don't want to change to language X"
[17:21:50] <bawolff>	 ?
[17:22:28] <siebrand>	 Wikimedia does not want to encourage anonymous users to change UI language for now.
[17:22:41] <Nikerabbit>	 because of caching, you know
[17:23:18] <Nikerabbit>	 to clarify: the accept-lang header is processed in PHP side in ULS
[17:23:46] <bawolff>	 but you could get it in js using ajax if you wanted
[17:23:46] <Nikerabbit>	 we could pass the headers to JS but it wouldn't help us at all in the current situation
[17:24:09] <siebrand>	 In the future, we may be more aggressive in asking logged in users to change their UI language on wikis with content in multiple languages (like Wikimedia Commons or Meta-Wiki).
[17:24:23] <siebrand>	 No discussions or decisions about that yet, though.
[17:25:02] <wizardist>	 what do you mean by "aggressive"? :)
[17:25:08] <siebrand>	 Eventually, *I* hope we can do something proper with Accept-Language for all users, but there are also people that disagree with me on that.
[17:25:16] <ori-l>	 wizardist: <blink>, <marquee>, etc.
[17:25:24] <wizardist>	 :)
[17:25:42] <siebrand>	 aggressive as in actually pointing out that UI language can be changed, instead of making it possible with an easily discoverable control.
[17:25:49] <Nemo_bis>	 wizardist: or like the language suggest Commons has for anons, I guess
[17:26:44] <chrismcmahonbrb>	 to what extent (if any) is ULS aware of the user's location?  I was noticing that some of the language choices displayed involve what seems like quasi-random ordering of likely language choices
[17:27:03] <Nikerabbit>	 YuviPanda: re android file format support: unless you convince Siebrand to reserve more time, I can work on it during the time reserved for translatewiki.net support and misc. bug fixing or on my free time
[17:27:07] <siebrand>	 ULS make a geo location service call and "knows" form which country you are.
[17:27:11] <Nikerabbit>	 so yes, but can't give you exact dates now
[17:27:29] <siebrand>	 It uses that data to list languages you are likely to be proficient in.
[17:27:46] <siebrand>	 (together with previously used languages and your accept language(s))
[17:28:06] <chrismcmahon>	 siebrand: that feature made automating tests a bit tricky.  tests that passed in the US failed in Croatia :-) .  that is very fancy.
[17:28:15] * YuviPanda  wonders if there is some way to convince siebrand to set aside some time for the android export format

[17:28:18] <siebrand>	 chrismcmahon: Thank you :)
[17:28:44] <bawolff>	 YuviPanda: Kidnapping is often effective
[17:28:46] <siebrand>	 YuviPanda: have you checked if you can fix it in the FFS yourself?
[17:29:24] <siebrand>	 YuviPanda: We encourage translatewiki.net supported product partner to get involved in the support of the FFS to lighten load of twn staff!
[17:29:39] <Nemo_bis>	 bawolff: I think he already tried that
[17:29:47] <YuviPanda>	 siebrand: I looked into it and think it'll take me at least a few days to get myself familiar enough with it to contribute
[17:30:06] <YuviPanda>	 which I will do if we run into more 'breaking' issues (we have so far found workarounds for most things)
[17:30:08] <ori-l>	 (what's 'FFS'?)
[17:30:09] * siebrand  raises an eyebrow.

[17:30:22] <siebrand>	 ori-l: A File Format Support PHP class.
[17:30:25] <YuviPanda>	 siebrand: over which part of the sentence?
[17:30:29] <ori-l>	 ah
[17:30:51] <YuviPanda>	 ori-l: the android file format can be generously called... ill-designed.
[17:31:06] <Nikerabbit>	 +1 what Yuvi said
[17:31:16] <siebrand>	 YuviPanda: Over you, Indian educated bachelor, needing multiple days before being able to contribute to a simple input/output parser for an i18n file format.
[17:31:33] * YuviPanda  raises eyebrows. both of them

[17:31:34] <YuviPanda>	 :P
[17:31:42] * siebrand  grins evilly.

[17:32:00] <Nikerabbit>	 soon would be a good time to run
[17:32:14] <siebrand>	 Anyway, we seems to have progressed into the Q&A state.
[17:32:18] <siebrand>	 stage
[17:32:54] <siebrand>	 I'm not aware of any open questions at this time.
[17:33:01] <siebrand>	 Any new ones related to Langauge Engineering?
[17:33:05] <YuviPanda>	 siebrand: part of it is also that I've not touched any PHP in a fair bit
[17:33:19] <siebrand>	 (including spelling correction by the LangEng product manager)
[17:33:19] <YuviPanda>	 siebrand: status of the translatewiki iOS app? found time to test it?
[17:33:32] <siebrand>	 YuviPanda: Ah, yes.
[17:33:41] <siebrand>	 YuviPanda: I've tested it a few weeks ago, but not the latest version.
[17:34:09] <siebrand>	 YuviPanda: For some reason there was more to be done than I could do, so I had to make choices.
[17:34:17] <YuviPanda>	 nice. is it going to be released branded as an 'official' translatewiki.net project?
[17:34:31] * YuviPanda  lowers eyebrows

[17:34:59] <siebrand>	 YuviPanda: But I'm very happy with what Or and Tomer have accomplished.
[17:35:06] <siebrand>	 YuviPanda: Possibly.
[17:35:24] <YuviPanda>	 brion gave Or a bunch of reviews today, I think
[17:35:25] <siebrand>	 As you know, translatewiki.net is "just" a community. There is no formal entity behind it.
[17:35:32] <YuviPanda>	 siebrand: yeah, it's good
[17:35:34] <YuviPanda>	 heh, true.
[17:35:41] <siebrand>	 i have a developer account for iOS apps, but that didn't work for the app.
[17:35:53] <siebrand>	 Recently, Apple has added "app transfer" features.
[17:36:07] <siebrand>	 That may make it possible to move the app from Or's account to mine once it is stable.
[17:36:08] <YuviPanda>	 oh yes, very recently
[17:36:18] <YuviPanda>	 that'll be nice
[17:36:29] <siebrand>	 The nice thing about the app is that it should work with any Translate installation.
[17:36:39] <siebrand>	 I haven't tested that yet, though (not sure if that feature is in)
[17:36:57] <YuviPanda>	 oh point to any api url? nice!
[17:37:10] <siebrand>	 Yes, that's the idea...
[17:37:20] <YuviPanda>	 sweet
[17:38:00] <siebrand>	 My thought is that twn is the default and an advanced setting allows changing the URL to the API, which would also make it possible to translate and review for Meta-Wiki, mediawiki.org, ...
[17:39:05] <YuviPanda>	 nice
[17:39:13] <YuviPanda>	 but meta texts would be large
[17:39:16] <Nikerabbit>	 plop
[17:39:39] <siebrand>	 yes, that's a usability issue that has yet to be explored and resolved, as far as I know.
[17:39:44] <wizardist>	 as for a non-iOS user, how much does mobile app user experience differ from the new Translate UI?
[17:39:53] <siebrand>	 A lot.
[17:39:55] <wizardist>	 (screens maybe?)
[17:40:12] <siebrand>	 Best reply to Or's email on mediawiki-i18n.
[17:40:40] <YuviPanda>	 (there is also an android project on the way as part of GSoC, from the same dev)
[17:40:51] <siebrand>	 http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/mediawiki-i18n/2013-June/000706.html
[17:41:01] <Nikerabbit>	 does the app allow account creation or just login to existing account?
[17:41:17] <wizardist>	 siebrand: thx
[17:41:25] <YuviPanda>	 Nikerabbit: there is no account creation api in mw yet
[17:41:29] <YuviPanda>	 so i don't think it can
[17:41:38] <YuviPanda>	 Nikerabbit: there's one that brion wrote, but it's in purgatory
[17:41:44] <Nikerabbit>	 YuviPanda: oh right, I forgot that MediaWiki ...
[17:41:55] <siebrand>	 See http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Orsagi/GSoC_2013_proposal for Or Sagi's "Android app for MediaWiki translation"
[17:42:08] <YuviPanda>	 Nikerabbit: major contenttion point being how to handle captchas, IIRC
[17:42:27] <Nikerabbit>	 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/API:Account_creation hmm
[17:42:45] <Nikerabbit>	 that page does not mention captcha at all
[17:42:59] <YuviPanda>	 Nikerabbit: so, fun part is that that got merged but it doesn't actually work
[17:43:10] <siebrand>	 Let's try to not get too technical in this office hours :)
[17:43:10] <YuviPanda>	 at lest on wikimedia wikis
[17:43:17] <siebrand>	 More questions?
[17:43:28] <Nikerabbit>	 YuviPanda: yeah and I am in the process of creating my own account creation api (sandbox) for twn
[17:43:32] <YuviPanda>	 yes, siebrand, we understand you are not a developer :)
[17:43:40] * siebrand  smiles.

[17:43:44] <YuviPanda>	 Nikerabbit: oh?! you should look at the patch brion has too
[17:43:59] <Nemo_bis>	 Nikerabbit: there's something on talk though
[17:44:22] <Nemo_bis>	 (by brion, indeed)
[17:45:09] <YuviPanda>	 Nemo_bis: hmm, I can't find brion's patchset.
[17:45:17] <YuviPanda>	 Nemo_bis: he's on the way to office, will ask him when he gets here
[17:46:20] <Nemo_bis>	 YuviPanda: worth linking from the talk I guess
[17:46:29] <YuviPanda>	 yeah, will do Nemo_bis when i find it
[17:47:29] <YuviPanda>	 end of office hours, I guess?
[17:48:04] <ori-l>	 congrats to the language engineering team for ULS!
[17:48:20] <Nikerabbit>	 thanks
[17:48:27] <bawolff>	 YuviPanda: No, the fun part was it got merged, and didn't even work with wikis without a captcha if i recall :P
[17:48:31] <YuviPanda>	 +1
[17:48:37] <Nikerabbit>	 it's been a (relatively) long ride
[17:48:41] <YuviPanda>	 bawolff: the current account creation stuff?
[17:48:47] <YuviPanda>	 bawolff: yeah, it got merged but doesn't actually work.
[17:49:04] <YuviPanda>	 definitely doesn't work if your wiki needs captchas, unsure otherwise
[17:49:16] <YuviPanda>	 bawolff: brion's patch added proper support, etc. he got bored of it, IIRC
[17:49:32] <bawolff>	 I fixed a bunch of the really major issues
[17:49:35] <siebrand>	 Okay, that ends the office hours.
[17:49:43] <siebrand>	 Thanks everyone for your participation.
[17:49:50] <siebrand>	 Our next Office hour will be on July 10, 2013
[17:49:51] <siebrand>	  
[17:49:58] <siebrand>	 === Wikimedia Language Engineering Office Hour - End ===
[17:50:17] <kart_>	 Thanks all!
[17:50:21] <analphabet>	 :)
[17:58:24] * dungodung  hugs Nikerabbit 

[17:59:25] <Nikerabbit>	 hurrr