[13:35:34] anyone from wmf legal around (if not, does anyone know if they ever come on irc)? [13:47:09] Sid-G: write a mail [13:47:49] Steinsplitter: it never hurts to check [17:57:43] Hello. [17:57:48] Hello. [17:57:51] siebrand: Salut! [17:58:14] cndiv: Youtube stream link? [17:58:43] (apparently we're still starting everything up, so please bear with us! [17:59:31] hi Siebrand! [17:59:59] hello, everyone [18:00:00] rfarrand: Hey! How's life after Wikimania and all staff? Regulated? :) [18:01:36] siebrand: yup - back to the routine, its nice. lots of trips coming up too. You? [18:02:32] * bd808 waits patiently for the laggy video stream [18:02:46] rfarrand: I think it's Pune November, SF January, Brussels February… [18:02:46] bd808: we have not started here [18:02:57] Deeeefinitely not. [18:03:01] * andrewbogott repeats his request that remote-streaming of meetings begin 10 mins /before/ the meetings begin [18:03:09] no stream yet? [18:03:10] siebrand: SF january? [18:03:13] andrewbogott: That may not always be possible [18:03:14] siebrand: do you enjoy all the travel [18:03:16] ah, k [18:03:18] * greg-g reads [18:03:23] Krinkle: youa are coming too! [18:03:26] marktraceur: because... [18:03:34] The meeting is not starting yet, there appear to still be technical issues with the presentation laptop [18:03:35] rfarrand: The travel not so much, but the working together and the hallway track all the more. [18:03:39] rfarrand: Ah, the architecture summit. I didn't know it was in SF (kinda assumed it though) [18:03:52] greg-g: Just so long as you didn't take your hat off. [18:04:38] Hey everyone, I'll be the IRC person again today. [18:04:42] A month ago I thought I had no trips for this year and early next year. Now that I'm back from Hong Kong and SF all staff, I look at my calendar again and boy, it's filling up again :) [18:04:46] If you have any questions, happy to proxy them for you. [18:04:52] end of this year* [18:05:11] Krinkle: same! [18:05:45] James_F: Is the remote strategy to watch the YouTube stream and then ping you with questions/comments? [18:06:07] Mind you: The hangout on air is about 40 seconds behind SF. [18:06:22] andrewbogott: you should send a ticket to techsupport asking them to start the stream early. Either they will do it or let you know why they cant [18:06:22] well, the lag varies but lag there is [18:06:32] All right y'all [18:06:33] http://youtu.be/jKKD5eGFNkI [18:06:50] marktraceur: technical issues are exactly my point -- we should plan slack /every time/ so that the traditional technical problems don't delay meetings or leave remote participants in the dark. [18:07:02] halfak: Yes. [18:07:10] * bd808 stands by [18:07:16] Starting very soon now. [18:07:23] reaaaal sooooon [18:07:28] Starting now! [18:07:37] First up we've got Gayle. [18:07:40] 3…. 2….. 1…… [18:07:41] * greg-g sits pleasently by [18:07:47] * drdee_ grabs popcorn [18:08:05] we do have 30 minutes of buffer, but there's also usually a fair bit last minute non-tech stuff that comes up :) [18:08:10] in [18:08:12] stream is coming in. [18:08:29] yay, halfak ! [18:08:31] Yay Ironholds, quiddity, etc. [18:08:33] :) [18:08:34] I'm still at "please stand by" :/ [18:08:34] Is there a link to the staff photo? It was on-screen for all of 3 seconds [18:08:36] Those are tiny letters on the slides. [18:08:42] Did DGarry just miss his shout out? [18:08:44] marcoil: reload [18:08:48] bd808, nope [18:08:53] "NEW PEOPLE" is readable. [18:08:54] :) [18:09:13] greg-g: nothing yet [18:09:24] * anomie wants cupcakes :( [18:09:27] Eloquence: Saw it on slide, but don't see him in irc [18:09:33] Now we've got Erik doing top-line metrics. [18:09:35] hey is Coren here? (I do not know his IRC username) [18:09:44] Coren *is* his IRC username [18:09:48] sgardner: Coren is his IRC… yeah. [18:09:50] lol ofc [18:10:25] on irc [18:10:37] ori-l: Hiding as usual [18:10:44] yeah, a bit of lag, btw, for us "live stream" watchers ;) [18:11:47] Is it not several months in a row where the top line metrics is not looked into? [18:12:03] Off topic question: what's SF? [18:12:12] Larsnl|leren: San Francisco [18:12:12] San Francisco [18:12:14] oh ok [18:12:30] Ainali: We looked at it last month and the one before, I think? [18:12:40] Coren -- I wanted to say thanks to you and the other folks who handled the data security issue. Erik said you were all over it: thank you :-) [18:12:48] who typically announces the youtube stream/adds it to the topic for the metrics meeting here [18:13:11] awjr: I tend to add the link to the topic, cndiv tries to announce it on the wiki or etherpad or whatever [18:13:16] Why d'you ask? [18:13:31] sgardner: Thanks. This is the kind of thing we, culturally, take very seriously; so the response came naturally. [18:14:12] marktraceur: i was trying to load the hangout while very AFK but the link still hasn't been updated on meta yet (im doing it now), but i had to come back to my laptop to check IRC for the link :) [18:14:21] Ah sure [18:14:25] it would be great if it was updated regularly on meta *before* the meeting starts [18:14:30] I failed to update meta, cndiv isn't logged in correctly [18:14:40] not a big deal, just minor gripe :) [18:14:42] awjr: I think the problem is that we don't start the hangout 'til very soon before the meeting [18:14:45] Coren: yes -- I'm really grateful. It seems unlikely harm was done but I am happy nonetheless that it got handled fast and transparently once we heard about it. [18:14:48] awjr: It was. [18:14:58] awjr: The link was in the /topic as soon as it was available. [18:15:13] Now: Jamie and Dan showing off Wikimetrics [18:15:18] James_F: i'm talking about on meta - i was very AFK and wanted to load the hangout on my phone [18:15:57] Eloquence: thanks for the nod! [18:16:07] there's a video delay, so I couldn't raise my virtual hang quickly enough [18:16:14] :) [18:16:14] gah and i cant figure out how to add the link to the page on meta [18:16:28] who's talking about wikimetrics right now? [18:16:30] ori-l, can you maybe add links to the relevant ganglia dashboards to the page on meta? [18:16:36] Jaime [18:16:37] this is jaime anstee(sp?) [18:16:38] sure [18:16:41] thanks [18:16:50] (can't see face, only screen ;) ) [18:16:51] That's right, I believe [18:16:53] silly templates [18:16:59] janstee on IRC (from time to time) [18:17:10] awjr: Oh, right. Yeah, sorry about that. [18:17:13] greg-g: ^^^ "Now: Jamie and Dan showing off Wikimetrics " [18:17:24] heh not a big deal James_F, minor gripe :) [18:17:31] on commons: the jstraffic is the problem? [18:17:35] but if i had been a little more AFK, it would've been a problem [18:17:44] Steinsplitter, there's certainly room for optimization [18:17:48] Steinsplitter: It's a problem, yeah [18:18:13] we hav enabled in the last months som js-tools as "standard" for all users, only fyi [18:18:37] Steinsplitter: Exactly - working to make those run faster and better and only when necessary would be great. [18:18:53] Any questions? [18:19:00] marktraceur: great. :-) [18:19:14] James_F: I'm technically curious what the backend to this is -- a database; hadoop? [18:19:16] Now: An update about Google Summer of Code programme and FOSS Outreach Program for Women. [18:19:19] and how easy is it to add new metrics [18:19:27] and where is it/where can i get an account [18:19:39] mwalker: Hadoop, yes - I think. Dario is an expert. [18:19:59] mwalker: https://metrics.wmflabs.org/login?next=%252Freports%252Fcreate%252F [18:20:03] d [18:20:19] wikimetrics is great. i've been using it for a few months now and it's fabulous. [18:20:31] meh- irc on phones is kind of icky [18:20:48] mwalker: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimetrics [18:21:03] gwicke_: ☏ <-- phones on irc [18:21:31] ori-l: ;) [18:22:53] greg-g: metrics.wmflabs needs to integrate with our OAuth [18:23:29] I think that's on dan's todo list already [18:24:22] bd808: {{sofixit}}. ;_) [18:24:29] Eloquence: Oh, awesome. [18:24:42] Any questions for Quim? [18:25:19] OK. [18:25:37] Next up: Mobile with an update about design changes for Mobile Web by Vibha. [18:26:23] (but first, questions from sgardner!) [18:26:39] Apparently. :-) [18:26:48] sgardner: shhh! [18:26:56] it's a secret [18:27:10] sgardner: yes! Yuvi! [18:27:16] YUVIIIIII :-) [18:27:19] he was my gsoc student a few years ago :) [18:28:45] shoutout to prototyping inline comments project [18:29:00] StevenW: Link? [18:29:03] Indeed, lots of cool GSoCers. [18:29:04] which you can try at annotator.wmflabs.org [18:29:13] Thanks :) [18:29:59] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing [18:30:03] Vibha! Not Malaysia. Mauritius. [18:30:07] And the three awesome VisualEditor GSoCers, all of whose code is live on mediawiki.org (and soon on English Wikipedia!). [18:31:17] i learn such fascinating language working here. [18:31:24] StevenW: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Parsoid/MediaWiki_DOM_spec/Element_IDs should make annotations easier in the longer term [18:33:08] MissGayle: "Astroturfing" or "GSoCers" or something else? :-) [18:33:35] Next up: Mobile with a general update, by Kenan. [18:34:09] Both terms, but I'm fascinated by how astroturfing can contribute to confusion and apathy. [18:34:12] * ori-l swats the mouse cursor [18:34:39] +1 to the design work presented by Vibha, lovely stuff [18:34:57] LOL [18:35:06] mwalker: no it's mysql [18:35:12] Eloquence and I both are confused by the smiley face as user icon [18:35:26] drdee_: does it have access to event logging at all? [18:35:36] because that would be freaking useful [18:36:05] mwalker: not yet. But it's trivial to create a cohort out of EL logs and then upload it. [18:36:39] mwalker: not yet [18:36:45] wanna talk about that with me? [18:36:45] Yay quiddity. [18:37:02] yeah guys, pounce on drdee and make him make me write it [18:37:08] ;) [18:37:17] * James_F grins. [18:37:25] I'd unequivocally love to add EL support [18:38:06] EL == data stored in graphite? [18:38:12] question for kenan - RE the q2 goals, by how much are we aiming to increase number of mobile registered users? [18:38:17] bd808: EventLogging [18:38:29] awjr: Will ask. [18:38:56] What's our reasoning for building native apps in contrast to focus on mobile webb? [18:38:57] ty James_F [18:39:32] drdee_: sure; I'll write up an email about my thoughts about what it could be used for and post it on analytics-l [18:39:32] Ainali: I think these are native *mobile* apps [18:39:43] thanks mwalker [18:39:45] YuviPanda: Where does that data end up after going through all the python daemons? [18:39:52] bd808: currently, mysql [18:39:53] much obliged mwalker [18:39:54] milimetric: That's what Ainali means, still a valid question [18:39:58] question for kenan and vibha: how have you guys gotten feedback from users about profiles? [18:40:10] bd808: and mongodb, and nobody uses mongodb yet [18:40:15] maridb on db1047, mongodb on vanadium, flat files [18:40:16] Ainali: Erik's asked your question before I could. [18:40:21] ah my bad [18:40:29] YuviPanda, ori-l: thx [18:41:36] Thanks, Eloquence for asking that! [18:41:41] Next up: An overview from Grantmaking of the past year's work, by Anasuya, Katy, Siko and Asaf. [18:42:24] bd808: and there's a patch for writing it to hadoop [18:44:00] ori-l: hdfs or some other backend? [18:44:38] hdfs, but i saw you've been doing cassandra stuff [18:44:41] would be fun to try that [18:47:22] ori-l: yup [18:47:59] we were going to look into that too ori-l / gwicke_ [18:48:19] we're prototyping a pageview data api [18:48:36] we should keep in touch about cassandra because I don't think mysql will take us very far [18:48:58] audio is clipping [18:49:11] milimetric: wanna bet? :P [18:49:35] well, I bet on mysql to start, and we'll see how it handles 300 GB in one table [18:49:50] but that's only a year worth of daily data and we want to do 6 years of hourly + additional dimensions [18:50:12] milimetric: ahh- coincidence ;) we are working on a storage api, see http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:GWicke/Notes/Storage [18:52:29] The numbers shown are weird. They are not how much was spent of the FDC, but from the total, isn't it? [18:53:03] very cool gwicke_, you'll be our first call/email when ori-l and I lose our mysql bet ;) [18:54:46] Also, I would be interested in how you got the 21% growth for WMSE. I get 18,7% [18:54:54] milimetric: ha! [18:54:54] Ainali: Which numbers shown where? There are lots being shown. [18:55:05] Eloquence: the answer to your Q is: to rework WikiProject Medicine's main page to make it easier to edit by sections (instead of a typically opaque nest of templates) [18:55:25] Interesting. Link to that one ragesoss? [18:55:31] There was a side with what chapters had spent and what they requested [18:55:34] looking [18:55:36] I was just digging for that one…that's funny. [18:55:37] *slide [18:55:50] Ainali: Slides from https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/GLEE_monthly_metrics_Sept_2013.pdf ? [18:55:56] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/A_redesigned_WikiProject_Medicine_page [18:56:10] Ainali: Slide 8? [18:56:14] StevenW: ^ [18:56:20] Gracias [18:56:30] James_F: Exactly [18:57:02] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:There_is_a_deadline [18:57:06] Ainali: Can I ask Anasuya to get back to you? I don't think we have time for questions right now. [18:57:21] James_F, it was Katy's slide. [18:57:25] James_F: That is totally ok! [18:57:32] sgardner: OK, will ask Katy instead. :-) [18:57:36] :-) [18:57:47] James_F: That is ok too :) [18:59:58] Ainali: E-mail sent. [19:00:15] These are great lessons learned. [19:01:21] BTW, the date of the meeting on YouTube is incorrect. [19:01:32] 10.03.2013 => 03.10.2013 :) [19:01:53] or perhaps ISO will be even better than that :) [19:02:05] 2013-01-03 [19:02:05] O_O [19:02:09] Asaf is spot on with the single-session, general audience in terms of converting them to editors. I can confirm that from Sweden too. [19:03:00] bd808: Denary LRS there by mistake or as a joke? [19:03:41] James_F: Bad typing? 2013-10-03 [19:03:50] bd808: OK. I thought it was an amusing joke. :-) [19:04:23] Now coming to the end of Asaf's bit. [19:06:46] Not sure if this will be the end of Metrics or if we're doing LiAnna's update. [19:07:12] ldavis, thoughts? [19:07:17] I think you have like 4 slides right :P [19:07:28] Listed as a 2 minute update. :-) [19:07:42] Eloquence: 4 slides does not necessarily equal short. :-) [19:07:50] true enough [19:08:08] Next up: A very quick update about the Wikipedia Education Program in the Arab World, by LiAnna. [19:08:16] Q: Is there any reason why CIS did not list Hindi as their language of choice? [19:08:29] Q: Is this because they want to focus on the other Indian languages? [19:08:37] twkozlowski: Ask the team by e-mail? [19:08:56] Oh, whatever. [19:09:23] twkozlowski: ? [19:09:55] Too much of a hassle, James_F. [19:10:39] twkozlowski: If it's too much of a hassle to send an e-mail, why did you want 300 people to watch/listen to you ask it through me? :-) [19:10:43] twkozlowski: can't speak for them, but from what I know the other languages they focus on have more active communities. [19:10:48] And that appears to us be done. [19:11:23] James_F: Because I assumed Asaf might have the answer. Wouldn't have asked. Sorry for the trouble. [19:11:47] twkozlowski: Oh, right. By the time you asked he was already sitting down. :-( [19:11:48] for non staffers, this was a scavenger hunt that we did at the california academy of sciences during our all hands :) [19:12:06] sorry, praveena had already moved me up :) [19:12:23] Eloquence: Thanks. I was just going to ask. [19:12:43] haha, all sarah [19:13:05] No I can't come up. [19:13:05] YuviPanda|away: I see. Found the URL in the meantime, http://cis-india.org/openness/resources/access-to-knowledge-work-plan is what I meant. [19:13:14] dibs on the puppet [19:14:12] Wait what? The frogs didn't even place? [19:14:22] Can we know how many points we got? [19:14:49] coren: after all that work… no crystals [19:14:52] Coren: Apparently. [19:14:56] Coren: Will ask Mel to do a full release. [19:14:58] … and that's us done. [19:15:00] Thanks, everyone. [19:15:18] thank you [19:15:24] * bd808 wants a cupcake :( [19:15:24] * anomie still wants cupcakes :( [19:15:28] Coren, you were #6 apparently [19:15:35] they're giving out cupcakes? [19:15:57] I can't wait for when google adds cupcake delivery to hangouts… [19:16:01] Eloquence: I saw, like for 2 frames at the very end. :_) [19:16:12] thanks everyone! [19:16:14] WMFHQ unfair to remotes! We demand more cupcakes! [19:16:21] Coren, that's as much credit as you proportionally deserve ;) [19:16:26] bd808: now wait as everyone abandons IRC to go have real food [19:17:01] YuviPanda: I'm doing that food thing next too. [19:17:12] right, you're in the same time zone too [19:17:34] YuviPanda: Nearby anyway. 13:17 local time here. [19:17:52] hello [19:17:52] bd808: :) [19:18:22] Eloquence: I think I need to go lie down for a couple of hours; things seem to be quiet enough now that I actually nodded off a few times while listening to the meeting. :-) You have enough people to cover? [19:18:40] Hi matanya. :) [19:26:40] Evening [19:26:47] (or morning, whatever) [19:27:06] Or afternoon. [19:27:09] :P [19:27:17] * JeanFred does not seem to have missed anything [19:27:28] Indeed :-þ [19:27:47] halfak|WMF: thesis tweaks (twesis? thweaks?) are in t'mail [19:28:01] Ironholds: <3 [19:28:14] (more to come, these are just initial thoughts) [19:28:42] my first reactions to it were successively "aww, he cited our paper!","holy hell that's a lot of words" and "a lot of really COMPLICATED words", fwiw. [19:29:16] to be fair, that's your reaction to most sentences. [19:30:44] I do cite our paper in most sentencesHalfaker, Keyes & Taraborelli, Making peripheral participation legitimate, CSCW '13 ACM. [21:00:00] All righty then. [21:00:09] Welcome, one and all, to the BetaFeatures office hour. [21:00:15] hi marktraceur [21:00:21] o/ [21:00:25] * bd808 waves [21:00:27] i guess bots run office hours now [21:00:37] I'm going to rant a bit about the project, how to use it, how not to use it if you don't want me to be angry with you, and what you'll be able to do in the very near future. [21:00:43] Hi chrismcmahon, bd808 legoktm [21:00:57] hi fabrice [21:01:06] First of all, a brief rant about what we're doing and why. [21:01:08] * YuviPanda waves gingerly painful hand [21:01:17] * YuviPanda rants about misuses of the word 'rant' [21:01:33] BetaFeatures is an extension that introduces a new hook, which is basically just a bit of sugar on top of the existing preferences framework and hooks. [21:01:57] FYI, here is the project page for Beta Features, in case you're not familiar with it: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Beta_Features [21:02:04] It takes a few parameters and produces a really pretty form for you in a tab on the Special:Preferences page [21:02:13] Ohai bawolff! [21:02:16] Hi bawolff YuviPanda nice to see you both :) [21:02:23] :) [21:02:39] Our hope for this extension is that we'll be able to use it to "soft launch" features that we think are really cool, but that we don't want to push on everyone yet. [21:02:40] Hi. Thought I would show my moral support :) [21:03:19] In the past, we'd use basic opt-in preferences for such a thing, but with BetaFeatures we have a much more standardized process, a unified place to look for new features, and a framework that can do a lot of work for us. [21:03:59] For example, we can give users who really want the bleeding edge software the ability to auto-enroll in all new beta features, which gives us a lot of instant feedback on the software. [21:04:26] We can also integrate Echo notifications really easily at the framework level, which will mean less need for manual socialization and announcements - and less duplicated effort [21:04:57] Not to mention the *wonderful* design work that violetto (May Galloway) and Jared Zimmerman did on the Beta Features preference form. [21:05:40] Right now, we're planning on releasing BetaFeatures sometime this month. It will be going to every Wikimedia wiki unless we come across wikis that have technical issues with it. [21:06:13] Our hope is that we can launch it with a few registered features already in the pipeline. If we only have one, I suspect we'll delay deployment. [21:06:42] But the bottom line is, if everything goes according to plan, this framework will be available in production by the end of October. [21:06:52] Here are the first features we're working on for the first release; https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Beta_Features#Features [21:07:19] So, a bit about how it works, unless there are immediate questions about the purpose and the plan for the near future. [21:07:45] (and feel free to interrupt me with questions at any time, I can have multiple parallel conversation tracks) [21:08:25] The basic use of the framework is pretty much the same as registering a normal preference. The only differences are in flexibility and the amount of user-facing information you need to provide. [21:08:27] I have a purpose/plan question but it's really general, let's hear more about how it works first [21:09:05] You can use the GetBetaFeaturePreferences hook to add a preference. Converting your existing preference hook should be pretty easy, since it acts almost exactly the same way - the same parameters and everything. [21:10:11] besides the hook name, do you need to do anything to migrate users from GetPreferences <--> GetBetaFeaturePrefs? or is it all handled automagically? [21:10:29] You'll need to pass back an array with the following keys: 'label-message', 'desc-message', 'info-link', 'discussion-link' [21:10:44] There are additional optional parameters, one of which is 'screenshot'. [21:11:28] 'label-message' is a title for the feature - our first ones are called e.g. "Typography Update", "Media Viewer", "Visual Editor Experiments" [21:11:41] legoktm: You'll need to change the array you pass back [21:11:55] ok [21:12:01] legoktm: Things like default and type are ignored - you can only register opt-in preferences, and they can only be checkboxes [21:12:07] so no maintenance script or anything? [21:12:51] 'desc-message' is a longer-form message that will be used as a prose description on the form (this may all make more sense if you follow along with the mockup: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/File:LabsScreenshot.png) [21:13:09] legoktm: Not currently - we're considering a maintenance script for the purposes of notifications, but we haven't built it out yet. [21:13:36] 'info-link' and 'discussion-link' are exactly what they sound like - central places to find information and discuss the feature. [21:14:12] er, let me phrase it more directly. if have a pref via BetaFeatures, and decide that i want that pref to be a permanent thing, do you need to do anything to the user_options entry in the table to turn it into a GetPreferences hook? [21:14:20] 'screenshot' is an optional field and can be used to provide a nice image to represent the feature - we're hoping the richer representation, with a visual aid, will help people get the idea of the features. [21:14:42] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/File:LabsScreenshot.png wow :) nice design [21:14:43] To see BetaFeatures in action, go to http://multimedia-alpha.wmflabs.org , then create a new account, go to your preferences, and click on the 'Beta Features' tab. [21:14:46] legoktm: Not really - there will be different values, but we can provide a maintenance script for that in the near future [21:15:00] sounds good [21:16:04] Anyway, that's how you register a preference. Five keys, none of which have really anything to do with the inner workings of Special:Preferences, which I think is a nice change [21:16:51] You can also decide to register a BetaFeature-style preference based on whether BetaFeatures is installed - just check for the existence of the BetaFeatures class and don't register the hook, or don't register the preference. [21:17:08] But make sure you fall back to a normal preference, too! :) [21:17:17] On to more advanced use. [21:17:38] There are two more advanced things available in BetaFeatures: auto-enroll preferences and dependencies. [21:18:09] I've been a bad developer and failed to add proper documentation for these, but I will do so immediately after I'm done here. [21:18:43] Auto-enroll preferences are helpful for projects that might have multiple new features over time that they want to test. One example is VisualEditor. [21:19:26] Since VE is installed for the long-term, they can add 'group' => 'visual-editor' to their BetaFeatures preferences, and add another parent preference with 'auto-enroll' => 'visual-editor'. [21:20:15] Then, when the parent preference is enabled on a user, and a new feature preference is added in that group that the user has never seen before, they'll get the feature automaticall. [21:20:19] y* [21:20:36] This is an exception to the rule that BetaFeatures is only for opt-in preferences :) [21:21:25] There's also a global auto-enroll preference, but it's possible that a user wants to test all the new VE features without being enrolled in Mobile's insane typography windmill-tilting :) [21:21:47] Different strokes and all that. [21:21:58] The second really advanced feature is dependency management. [21:22:17] We currently don't do a lot of this on our own - we just provide an adequate length of rope for developers to hang themselves [21:22:38] :D [21:22:56] Essentially that consists of providing a hook for registering dependency-management callbacks, and then calling those functions when it comes time to determine whether a feature should be included on the wiki. [21:23:34] We were first thinking of this for features that require other extensions to be installed - an editor that requires ContentHandler, or an interface improvement for Wikibase [21:24:03] if ( defined( MW_SUPPORTS_CONTENTHANDLER ) { } :P [21:24:28] It could also be used for hacky inline per-wiki blacklisting, but I'm trying to avoid using that at all costs, because it's nasty and hacky. [21:24:40] This is one bit of the code that I think could use a liiiiittle bit of polishing. :) [21:24:58] Right, last thing I have to talk about and then I'm done: Things coming soon to an extension near you. [21:25:10] Alternatively titled "Stuff we're thinking of working on" [21:25:25] First one is warning people about their platform not supporting a feature. [21:25:41] In particular, VisualEditor has prompted this one, because it doesn't work with IE. [21:26:02] (Yet.) [21:26:06] So, it would be nice if they could tell us that somehow, and we could detect a user on IE, and give them some indication that enabling the preference won't do a damn thing. [21:26:18] Or will break their world. Or whatever. [21:26:32] James_F: hehe :) [21:26:51] hm, i was thinking you could do it the other way around. 'hey we know our software isn't perfect on IE and we noticed you use IE, want to help us find bugs?' [21:26:59] So we're going to hopefully talk to James_F et al. and spec out some way to describe system/platform requirements sanely, and then write a nice warning system for users. [21:27:10] legoktm: Another possibility, yes :) [21:27:25] "Hey we know you're using lynx..." [21:27:31] Yeah. :-) [21:27:32] The other cool thing on the horizon is dependencies within the preferences. [21:27:35] GLWT. [21:27:50] legoktm James_F response from IE users about VE right now would only be noise [21:28:04] For example, if you've enabled the VisualEditor experimental preference, but not the basic VisualEditor preference, it's not going to do you much good. [21:28:12] chrismcmahon: right, i was talking more about that functionality in BetaFeatures [21:28:16] Here are some tips from lead designer Jared Zimmerman on how to figure out if your extension is ready for Beta Features: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Beta_Features#Creating_Your_Own_Beta_Features [21:28:48] And even more good tips on how to prepare and package your feature: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Beta_Features/Package [21:29:09] We'd like to include a way to describe _absolute minimum requirements_ for a user enabling a preference, as opposed to requirements for wikis showing the preference or an auto-enroll system. [21:29:43] There are certainly a lot of ways that two preferences, or a preference and a user, can interact in harmful ways. It's been really amusing finding all of them. :) [21:29:46] * chrismcmahon raises hand, this seems like a good time to raise a point... [21:29:50] Anywho, that's all I've got [21:29:52] chrismcmahon: Go nuts! [21:30:21] we've gotten much better about getting feedback for features. when I joined WMF features were mostly "works on my machine", let's deploy!"... 1/4 [21:30:32] Yeah [21:30:34] today we're generally more like "works on my machine, put it on a labs instance; works in labs, merge to master so beta cluster gets it; works in beta, deploy to test2wiki and mw.o..." [21:30:48] (with some exceptions of course, but getting more smooth all the time) [21:30:56] how do you see BetaFeatures in the overall feedback loop/deploy process? what sort of minimum criteria does a feature need to meet in order to be in BetaFeatures and thus available in the production environment? [21:31:02] chrismcmahon: Plus something about unit tests between "works for me" and "merge" [21:31:12] marktraceur: yes, all that [21:31:30] chrismcmahon: We've discussed this at some length, and we think that a feature should meet the minimum levels of not-breakiness for deployment if it wants to be included [21:31:57] It's not like we're deploying to a sandbox, like labs, or something only for testing, like beta or test2. [21:32:15] chrismcmahon: Check the link above about the criteria for figuring out if your feature is ready for this. [21:32:15] So we need to be careful that the code won't e.g. crash the server, crash user machines, or destroy data. [21:32:35] Or start a thermonuclear war (sorry, Extension:Nuke) [21:32:36]