[00:37:07] Hey does anyone know how to make a single cell (for instance A1) represent a range of numbers, say from two to ten? I really appreciate any help. [00:37:47] Uh, see the topic [00:57:55] lol [00:59:34] Oh, I had thought it meant technical support, my apologies [15:18:47] Engineering Community Team Office Hour starts in 40 minutes here! [15:20:06] andre__: I won't be here probably, you should use /topic [15:20:17] true that! [15:20:20] thanks [15:20:43] i war mal so frei [15:20:44] ehehe [15:21:19] Oh man, I love that somebody ignored the first bit of that message [15:21:41] * marktraceur should create a honeypot channel for those folks [15:21:55] Micr0s0ft o_O [15:22:06] time is too relative :) [15:22:16] :-) [16:01:36] hi qgil! [16:01:40] Hi, finally [16:01:43] heh [16:01:57] My IRC client wouldn't allow me to join. Weird. [16:01:59] Anyway [16:02:23] Now where is guillom? :) [16:02:23] Let's start! [16:02:24] andre__: maybe still on holidays? [16:02:29] oops. true. [16:02:47] So welcome everybody to the Engineering Community Team office hour that will take place here in the next hour! Thanks for showing up! [16:02:48] Welcome to the Engineering Community Team office hour! [16:02:48] So who is here for the office hour? Please raise your hands. :) [16:03:35] * zeljkof raises hand [16:03:39] * qgil raises hand [16:03:52] * andre__ waves [16:04:41] I'd say let's start [16:04:41] Who is the team? [16:05:08] Isarra: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Platform_Engineering#Engineering_Community_Team [16:05:29] sumanah, guillom, andre__ and me [16:05:29] Quim, Guillaume, Sumana and me [16:05:38] but sumanah is on sabbatical and guillom on holidays... [16:05:44] Ah, heh. [16:06:03] Quim: Shall we quickly introduce our roles? [16:06:52] See https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Engineering_Community_Team/Meetings#2013-10-15 and watch that page to learn about new meetings and our work in general. [16:06:52] and yes, about ourselves... andre__ please start [16:06:53] Alright... Heja, I'm andre. I'm the bugwrangler. Which means I take care of Wikimedia's software issue tracker at bugzilla.wikimedia.org. Together with other community members and developers I go through tickets in Bugzilla and try to make sure that they are in a good state, try to keep an eye on software issues reported in Bugzilla or other places (Village Pumps, IRC), and try to improve Bugzilla for everybody. [16:06:53] I document everything I consider useful on https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bug_management and I always welcome feedback. You can find my status updates there every week (or two weeks), plus my task list for this quarter at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bug_management/Task_list which also lists items that anybody can help with! [16:07:05] Recently I've been working on a guided bug entry form for Bugzilla newcomers, cleaning up our custom CSS, and deployed an "Inline History" extension in Bugzilla which makes it easier to see who changed which metadata (Priority etc) when in Bugzilla tickets. [16:07:08] That's all. Quim? [16:07:46] I'm technical contributor coordinator, which means that I try to help volunteers doing their work. [16:07:46] You can find all the details at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil [16:08:03] * chrismcmahonbrb raises hand late [16:08:51] sumana is the team coordinator and guillom takes care of technical communications. [16:08:52] Any questions about the team itself? [16:09:13] Are you guys responsible for setting up new git repositories for volunteer stuff? [16:10:09] Isarra: this process is handled via https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Git/New_repositories/Requests [16:10:38] We watch it but the actual processing is done by the Git/Gerrit maintainers directly aka ^demon & co [16:10:58] And ownership stuff would be them too? [16:11:02] Ownership stuff? [16:11:19] Access to the repositories. [16:11:27] Yes [16:12:10] Any other questions about the team? [16:12:42] About this meeting, as said: See https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Engineering_Community_Team/Meetings#2013-10-15 and watch that page to learn about new meetings and our work in general. [16:12:51] The idea is to have an IRC meeting like this, around the middle of each month. [16:12:58] And then a showcase of tasks completed at the end of the month, using videoconference. [16:13:07] Let's see how it goes. [16:13:14] Any questions about these meetings? [16:14:13] Ok, the first topic of today's agenda is the Google Code-in program [16:14:23] We started the discussion at http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2013-October/thread.html#72369 [16:14:32] My proposal was (and still is) here: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2013-October/072369.html [16:15:16] Basically, I'm proposing to apply. For that we need to do some homework, and we must be sure that a? we can afford that homework and, of course, we can afford a good participation in the program if we get accepted. [16:15:26] would visualisation stuff for Wikidata data be a possible subject ? [16:15:34] IMHO it really depends on how many mentors show commitment. [16:15:41] We got first hand feedback from andre__ , Lydia_WMDE and others [16:15:50] GerardM, tasks are for high school students and should take about three to five days [16:15:59] just to give an idea about how big tasks should be [16:16:00] I know ... [16:16:03] ah, ok [16:16:18] is there already a wikipage with a default form (like https://wiki.gnome.org/GoogleCodeIn/Tasks or http://community.kde.org/GoogleCodeIn/2012/Ideas ), where mentors could add their potential GCI tasks? [16:16:20] So we get an idea if there's enough "critical mass" to apply for one of the ten GCI organization slots? [16:16:22] GerardM: the principle is "tasks that a skilled contributor could complete in a couple of hours" [16:16:23] visualisation of data is often taught in school [16:16:41] GerardM, could you mentor such a task? [16:16:46] no [16:16:59] GerardM: when it comes to scope, any MediaWiki / Wikimedia tech related task would be within the scope. [16:17:15] so if you can find a potential mentor in the Wikidata team, and if things can be broken into manageable subtasks, why not? :) [16:17:19] not enough awareness about what these kids can do are being taught [16:17:26] ok [16:17:34] andre__: no, we don't have an ideas page because I was waiting for a decision to start it (hopefully today) [16:17:43] qgil, hehe. chicken and egg. :) [16:18:11] andre__: what I get from your feedback is that we need to have the foundations in place, otherwise is pointless. [16:18:50] qgil: I'd at least start to collect tasks, and defer the decision whether to apply on the number of tasks. However the rules and expectations must be made absolutely clear to mentors, e.g. the short time to review patches [16:18:53] I agree: let's build these solid foundations now. If we succeed we apply. If we can't, then let's not apply. [16:19:12] ok, we are saying the same [16:19:44] The program has requirements about number and diversity of tasks [16:19:50] (I know some devs weren't happy to review patches on Christmas holidays, but those were the rules.) [16:19:52] qgil: andre__: one tip: collect the tasks in a way that you can later easily import into melange [16:19:58] otherwise you're going to go cracy [16:20:07] Lydia_WMDE, oh hell yeah, I know. I think we want your expertise on that :) [16:20:07] i am doing it via a google form this time [16:20:23] good point Lydia_WMDE [16:20:36] the wiki page we used in previous years is a pita [16:20:44] especially with a lot of tasks [16:21:01] yeah, was the same problem for Gnome [16:21:49] https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-soc/2013-October/000919.html has links to kde's form and result [16:21:57] not much done yet - need to poke more people [16:21:58] Lydia_WMDE: I will ask you the details of this form later - ah ok, great [16:22:17] Let's agree on the requirements: [16:22:59] At a program level, we need at least 40 tasks, and at least 5 in each of the categories: code, documentation, outreach, QA and UX [16:23:27] QA is doable, right chrismcmahonbrb zeljkof ? [16:23:35] 5 tasks minimum, I mean [16:23:46] UX, I'm talking with the UX team [16:24:02] They are 5-6 people, should be doable to propose 5 tasks. [16:24:08] btw those 5 tasks can also be the same one 5 times if they can be done more than once [16:24:30] like bug triage [16:24:30] qgil: I'd like to abstain from saying yes or no until after I speak with zeljkof about it [16:24:31] outreach, that belong to ourselves, the ECT and itś doable. [16:25:15] chrismcmahonbrb: ok, but in any case it's clear who can commit or not to this [16:25:45] This leaves us with code and documentation, where there are many projects and teams. [16:25:57] In theory is doable, in practice we will see in the following two weeks [16:26:18] qgil: I think we already have a list of 10-20 easy tasks [16:26:41] I propose to triage EASY bugs that will have two people watching them and coordinated for holidays [16:27:29] Google Code-in sets in a good definition of an EASY bug: a task that a newby can take and complete in a couple of days max without much prior background (but the skills to solve it) [16:27:48] andre__: what do you think? [16:28:02] qgil, sounds good [16:28:13] good to hear. Any other comments? [16:29:34] Right. Then the actions are: [16:30:02] qgil: set up Google Code-in page and Google Form with the info agreed here so far. [16:30:22] qgil: agree participation with QA, UX. [16:30:34] qgil: coordinate with ECT for outreach tasks [16:31:04] andre__ and qgil : triage EASY bugs focusing on code and documentation [16:31:29] It's more complicated than this, but for the sake of the meeting minutes... :) [16:31:38] ok? [16:32:00] +1 [16:32:06] +1 [16:32:37] Good. Any other questions about Google Code-in before mobing on? [16:32:39] moving [16:33:29] OK [16:34:00] Next topic: using MeetBot in these ECT IRC monthly meetings [16:34:05] See https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46377#c6 [16:34:25] MeetBot is a tool to manage and document IRC meetings [16:35:09] Currently there is an instance running in #wikimedia-meetbot [16:35:20] Hopefully one day will be working here at #wikimedia-office [16:36:04] Since these IRC meetings are substitutions of videoconference team meetings that we were helding, I think we can use this structured format. [16:36:07] What do you think?> [16:36:55] let's try it! [16:37:16] if the logs on https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours get more readable by that, sure [16:37:34] (and have less of the noise when quickly reading over them - I assume that will be a side effect) [16:37:39] Trying it doesn't mean that we need to stick to it. We can try MetBot in the next meeting and then evaluate. [16:38:34] +1 [16:38:34] MeetBot reports look like this: http://integration-meetbot.instance-proxy.wmflabs.org/wikimedia-meetbot/2013/wikimedia-meetbot.2013-09-26-16.59.html [16:38:59] Participants must keep a bit of discipline using simple commans like INFO or ACTION when they want to write something that will be highlighted in the report [16:39:16] And the person(s) running the meeting must have more discipline opening and closing topics. [16:39:24] Other than that, it's just a chat :) [16:39:48] and the full logs are available anyways [16:39:48] Do we have a MeetBot cheat sheet? :P [16:39:58] INFO, ACTION, ... [16:40:13] There are instructions somewhere, wait... [16:40:43] https://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot [16:40:44] alright. nothing to sort out now :) [16:41:10] I have runs meetings with MeetBot in the past, at the MeeGo project. It was useful. [16:41:19] But ok, any other comments? [16:42:28] Action: let's try MeetBot in the next ECT meeting on IRC [16:42:56] Now, are there other topics you want to raise? [16:43:50] I'm fine. I guess we need to discuss the exact steps to get the idea of having a "Bug of the week" going, but that can be handled via email [16:43:55] (actually I already sent one) [16:44:50] Yes, we need to define that Bug of the week, although I wonder whether we should kick off Code-in first, since it's related. [16:45:04] hmm [16:45:19] I mean, if we get Code-in right, then Bug of the week is simple. [16:45:48] and inly by trying Code-in we will do homework useful for Bug of the week [16:46:50] I'll find and reply to your message, andre__ (did I miss it, or just forgot abou it?) :( [16:46:56] the preparation is definitely extremely related, true [16:47:29] qgil: sent 55min ago according to my Sent folder [16:47:29] andre__: ah ok :) [16:47:58] andre__: what about focusing on Code-in this October, and then we'll see based on whether we applied or not, got acepted or not? [16:49:28] yeah, GCI is more urgent to sort out [16:49:36] as it starts on Nov18 [16:50:19] action: andre__ and qgil to focus first on Google Code-in, and then plan Bug of the Week on November according to the results obtained [16:50:26] great! [16:50:41] anything else about Bug of the Week? [16:50:53] 10 minutes and I still want to comment monthly goals [16:50:59] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Engineering_Community_Team/Meetings#Monthly_goals [16:51:13] (I'll start, feel free to interrupt) [16:51:44] We started this month experimenting with sharing our individual monthly goals and quarter goals [16:52:14] ...though I'm pretty bad in breaking up quarterly goals into monthly goals :) [16:52:28] Even if there is overlapping with our own reporting, the idea is that each of us would do the same amount of work planning/reporting but the end result would be better at a team level, by sharing and discussing these plans better [16:53:34] In my case, I'm obsessed with "three top tasks and forget about the rest until one task is completed" :) - see https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil [16:53:49] But I'll find a way to combine this with monthly tasks [16:53:57] andre__: what about you? [16:54:08] andre__: a way to look at these monthly tasks is: [16:54:24] what do I want to show at the showcase meeting happening at the end of the month? :) [16:54:31] I'm probably more opportunistic and try to do several things at the same time, depending on my mood etc :) [16:54:37] yeah, the showcase might be a good motivation. [16:55:17] It's a way to avoid getting trapped by the "business as usual" daily tasks, having some time planned for those other tasks that require extra push [16:56:06] I could spend the whole week only in my mailbox. Not good. [16:56:10] My "business as usual" is only the first part of the day (bugmail, VillagePumps etc). Depending on how bad things are, I normally have 2 hours per day or so working on longer-term stuff or code [16:56:25] My "very next things to do" list for the next days (two weeks?) says: [16:56:28] * Set up a Bugday to update ("triage") Pywikibot tickets [16:56:31] * Finalize and deploy Guided Bug Entry Form -- https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=36762 [16:56:33] * Install ComponentWatching extension on Bugzilla test instance -- https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37105 [16:56:36] * Google Code-In preps [16:56:45] this should be pretty much reflected by https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bug_management/Task_list#Plans_for_Q4.2F2013 [16:57:05] ... and the whole thing about the monthy goals is flexible (and even the showcase). If the tasks weren't completed, fine. But at least this is documented, and you/the team is aware. Which tends to help. [16:57:07] this is pretty much it, yes andre__ [16:57:11] hehe [16:57:28] so fotr a showcase I'd probably use the InlineHistory (which got deployed recently), plus the guided form. [16:57:43] These look like fine "monthly goals"to me. :) [16:57:54] You got me. :D [16:57:58] deal! [16:58:16] and no action needed :) [16:58:26] Alright, 2 mins left. Anything else? [16:59:08] Please send us your feedback about these IRC meetings and what should do the ECT team to improve. We are experimenting! [16:59:44] Thank you very much! [16:59:59] Yes, thanks everybody for joining the discussion, questions, or just lurking here! :) [17:00:06] :) [17:00:18] * arrbee arrived late and spent more time reading scrollback :) [17:00:29] haha [17:00:36] arrbee: you can find us at #wikimedia-dev [17:01:12] Metting closed. [17:01:13] qgil: I liked the top-3-tasks idea. Maybe I will experiment for a week. [17:01:21] Meeting closed, I mean. :) [17:01:48] arrbee: I tried it for the first time a couple of years ago and since then there is no way back. :) [17:02:10] qgil: :) [17:11:23] is Michelle Paulson in today? [17:17:27] matanya: that is, working or in the office? [17:17:42] possible to talk with [17:18:04] Ironholds: I would like to have a chat with any of legal fellows willing to talk to me :) [17:18:24] matanya: there are probably lawyers in the office, but your best bet is probably to email them. [17:18:35] prefreably michelle. [17:18:56] emails can be read by the NSA :P [17:19:37] if one can jump in for a short IRC talk, that would be appriciated [17:19:51] and IRC cannot be read by them ? [17:20:03] sure it can [17:20:52] i'm just requesting. if possible, that would be best [17:25:48] all done now, eh? is it just me or was the first announcement about the office hour two hours ago about three hours ago? [17:25:56] or did i miss it somewhere? :/ [17:30:48] matanya: I'd still suggest email; they can't free up an unknown amount of time to give commentary on an unknown subject at no notice. [17:31:15] sure, understood. thanks anyway Ironholds [17:31:51] np [18:07:08] guess ya are :P [18:07:12] lol [18:07:34] Mlpearc: When people ask me to join channels, I just do :p [18:07:45] :P