[17:00:50] * guillom waves at andre__  [17:00:57] hey there! [17:01:00] hi [17:01:06] hi sumanah [17:01:12] hi andre__ & guillom [17:01:15] hello [17:01:34] guillom: would you care to lead today? :) [17:01:53] Err, sure. I thought you would :) Give me a sec. [17:02:24] So, this is the monthly IRC meeting of the Engineering community team [17:02:32] The draft agenda is at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Engineering_Community_Team/Meetings#2014-02-11 [17:02:59] andre__: Care to start with the tools review? [17:03:08] sure [17:03:20] #meetingstart ? [17:03:21] ok :) [17:03:25] if I could remember the meetbot commands... :P [17:03:27] * sumanah tries to remember how to activate the bot [17:03:45] #startmeeting [17:03:45] sumanah: Error: A meeting name is required, e.g., '#startmeeting Marketing Committee' [17:03:51] #startmeeting ECT weekly [17:03:51] Meeting started Tue Feb 11 17:03:51 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is sumanah. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. [17:03:51] Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. [17:03:51] The meeting name has been set to 'ect_weekly' [17:04:00] #topic Project management tools/Review [17:04:06] this is the monthly IRC meeting of the Engineering community team [17:04:10] The draft agenda is at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Engineering_Community_Team/Meetings#2014-02-11 [17:04:23] * sumanah repeats Guillaume for the meetbot records :) [17:04:27] #info Project management tools review is an ongoing project to find out which requirements our development teams have for project management. Our current landscape is pretty heterogenous so guillom and I work on finding out which specific tasks teams want to be able to do [17:04:30] Thanks [17:04:44] #info Latest news: guillom was so awesome to summarize the feedback and come up with categories on https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project_management_tools/Review/Requirements . This now needs another iteration and consolidating more - andre__ is currently working on that [17:04:54] #info The next step after this will be to start eliminating some candidate tools by comparing to the most important requirements [17:05:07] #info Then we will focus on the few remaining viable candidates and check them against way more of the wished requirements. [17:05:16] so that is where we currently are [17:05:19] #info If you want to follow this work: We regularly update the status at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project_management_tools/Review#Status [17:05:37] #info Anyone is invited to help with the consolidation/summarizing, and later with the analysis of candidates [17:05:54] Any questions / comments / feedback? [17:05:57] guillom: of course, feel free to add anything / elaborate :) [17:06:33] Looks good to me :) [17:06:51] andre__: thanks [17:06:53] sumanah: on anyone: any questions about this activity? [17:06:56] or* [17:07:14] andre__: I'll be interested to see how the FLOSS tools fare [17:07:42] andre__: any lessons learned from the experience so far? [17:07:55] There are a few good contenders; phabricator seemr to be one; gitlab another. [17:07:57] andre__: especially around process, what templates/tools/workflow make this kind of assessment easier? [17:08:04] we're also curious. Though several people have mentioned that they'd definitely prefer software that we can fix / enhance ourselves [17:09:02] I think we're not there yet to be really able to judge that. [17:09:03] I've played a little bit with Phabricator so far, but we'd probably need to set up our own testing instance as we of course don't have administration rights in their existing instance [17:09:45] (by "this kind of assessment" I mean the work you have been doing, gathering criteria and assessing candidates. I know this is a bit meta) [17:10:24] andre__: Do you have enough knowledge of Labs to lead the setup of the prototype, or would sumanah's experience with Labs be useful in this regard? [17:10:50] the currently only have the rough criteria here: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project_management_tools/Review/Requirements - there's no rating yet which requirements are more important than others, but I guess "how many people mentioned this" might be one obvious one [17:11:04] guillom, my Labs knowledge is basic, so help would be welcome indeed [17:11:18] I can probably help a little bit with setting up Labs though [17:11:41] sumanah: We asked people to fill an on-wiki form, very free-form but also guided and with examples to minimize the effort required [17:12:07] Similar to what I did for the Multimedia usability initiative [17:12:21] #info the currently only have the rough criteria here: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project_management_tools/Review/Requirements - there's no rating yet which requirements are more important than others, but I guess "how many people mentioned this" might be one obvious one [17:12:45] * andre__ reminds himself to use meetbot commands - thanks [17:12:48] #info as guillom did for the Multimedia usability initiative, we gathered information by asking people to fill out on-wiki form, very free-form but also guided and with examples to minimize the effort required [17:13:07] sumanah: would you be able and available to help us set up the prototype in Labs? [17:13:09] and about how many people filled it out? [17:13:17] About 20 iirc [17:13:32] guillom: andre__ - what is the preferred deadline? [17:13:44] #info 17 people filed out the questionnaire, see https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Project_management_tools/Review [17:13:50] :) [17:14:00] sumanah: Our best hope was to have the prototype by the end of February [17:14:11] rough schedule is in the items here: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project_management_tools/Review#Proposed_steps [17:14:21] So we can reach out to a wider audience for feedback [17:14:46] ...after consolidating the list of candidates a bit first [17:14:52] (20 people != the community but it was a good first step for the initial phase) [17:14:59] andre__: guillom - here's my idea. how about andre starts but if he runs into any obstacles at all then I'm happy to start by giving advice, and then we'll naturally see whether it makes sense for me to actually jump in and start configuring and messing with things [17:15:19] 17 is actually pretty great in my opinion [17:15:44] sound good to me; andre__: I can help as well if you want to do it together on IRC or something [17:15:46] for this initial round, we were mostly after feedback from people having involved in development and also planning / product&project management [17:16:04] yeah, I'll definitely need help on this (Labs), once we have a short list of tools. alright! [17:16:10] #action how about andre starts but if he runs into any obstacles at all then I'm happy to start by giving advice, and then we'll naturally see whether it makes sense for me to actually jump in and start configuring and messing with things [17:16:27] yay learning! [17:16:30] (I/me = sumanah) :) [17:16:41] oh right [17:16:49] sorry, the syntax is something I should remember [17:16:58] Alright [17:17:12] Next: Bugzilla downtime / upgrade / maintenance? [17:17:44] (Does someone have the link to the meetbot commands list?) [17:17:54] #topic Bugzilla 4.4 upgrade and move to a new server in the new datacenter [17:18:00] #info Later tomorrow (Wednesday, Feb12) Daniel Zahn, Sean Pringle and I plan to finally move Bugzilla to a new data center and upgrade its software version from 4.2 to 4.4 [17:18:13] maybe you've seen the announcement of the downtime here: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2014-February/074347.html [17:18:30] #info What we will get out from this is described in https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=49597#c12 so I won't repeat here :) [17:18:45] After we run 4.4 I will be able to fix and deploy a few more nice changes that have been on the list for a while, for example common queries on the Bugzilla frontpage. [17:19:10] guillom: https://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot [17:19:14] The way to get to this point (to be able to move Bugzilla and upgrade it) was more complicated than expected as we "wanted to do it right" (e.g. puppetizing Bugzilla on the way by setting up a fresh instance). Hence it also took longer than initially thought - I hope to cover all that in a blogpost in the next days [17:19:29] sumanah: thanks; found them separately [17:19:31] :) [17:19:43] ...so cross your fingers that all goes well tomorrow, and afterwards you'll be able to enjoy a better Bugzilla experience :) [17:19:53] Any questions? Comments? :) [17:20:06] comment: yay [17:20:07] andre__: Any big shiny new things we'll like? [17:20:54] #info I hereby praise Andre for writing a blog post about the process of puppetizing, upgrading, etc [17:21:02] andre__: neven mind, I missed that line above :) [17:21:08] (my praise is for POSTERITY) ;-) [17:21:14] will bug https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37105 be fixed as well by upgrading to 4.4? [17:21:22] The really great things that many Wikimedia folks ask for (Preview mode for comments, hiding email address by introducing a username) are all worked on for version 5.0, [17:21:43] HIDING EMAIL ADDRESS IS COMING? praise the flying spaghetti monster! [17:21:48] but 4.4 will provide some nice smaller things (like "In reply to comment 5" will show "In reply to comment 5 by John Doe", faster Search, better API support for Bingle, etc [17:21:48] andre__: that's awesome :) especially the email hiding thing [17:22:01] * guillom can't wait for 5. [17:22:05] well, 5.0... probably end of this year :-/ [17:22:19] I might try to backport some stuff, but cannot promise as I have not checked how complicated that will be [17:22:20] #info in BZ 5.0 there will be the ability to hide an email address by using a username. we can't wait. even though we have to wait about 10 months [17:22:21] andre__: by then we won't be using bugzilla any more :P [17:22:29] guillom, hehe, yeah, that might be the case :D [17:22:58] Bugzilla etiquette? [17:23:08] wait, 1 more question re BZ upgrade [17:23:12] ok [17:23:39] andre__: can you talk a little about the BZ upstream folks? what's going on in those regular meetings? is there anything they need from us? [17:23:46] what about my question? [17:23:46] "saved reports" might be another nice feature we will get (like saved searches) [17:24:00] andre__: yeah, and drdee's question :) [17:24:21] drdee, not automatically by upgrading as it is a separate extension [17:24:28] but it will be less trouble in the codebase [17:24:36] right but will that extension be installed as part of the upgrade? [17:24:38] drdee, I plan to play with that extension in March/April [17:25:02] drdee, no it won't. One thing at a time, so we can better isolate problems and where they come from :) [17:25:04] k [17:25:32] sumanah, upstream meetings: I am not aware of regular upstream meetings currently (though I am in upstream IRC and mailing list) [17:25:36] #info in March or April, Andre plans to play with an extension to fix https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37105 - one thing at a time to ID regressions [17:26:04] the upstream Bugzilla ("roadmap"?) plans can be found here: https://wiki.mozilla.org/BMO/Roadmap_2014 [17:26:19] [bmo] stands for bugzilla.mozilla.org, and [bz] for upstream code [17:26:47] I'm especially happy seeing them pushing bmo customisations (that we use or want to use) into upstream code [17:26:57] so there's better support / maintenance for them [17:27:38] Other questions or comments on this topic? [17:27:39] cool, thx andre__ , glad to hear that there's positive momentum [17:27:50] andre__: and there's nothing they need from us right now? [17:28:03] drdee: also, regarding that ComponentWatching extension (which is a bmo extension but not upstream): I tested with 4.2 but ran into DB issues (see https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37105#c11 ) and I'll need to wait for bmo to upgrade to 4.4 so they also update the extension code [17:28:47] sumanah: no, nothing I am aware of. I talked to two bz/bmo upstream maintainers at a Mozilla conference in November in person and told them our biggest issues in the Wikimedia community [17:29:00] great! thank you andre__ [17:29:04] that's all from me [17:29:16] #info drdee: also, regarding that ComponentWatching extension (which is a bmo extension but not upstream): I tested with 4.2 but ran into DB issues (see https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37105#c11 ) and I'll need to wait for bmo to upgrade to 4.4 so they also update the extension code [17:29:25] #info Andre says: "I talked to two bz/bmo upstream maintainers at a Mozilla conference in November in person and told them our biggest issues in the Wikimedia community" [17:29:42] #topic Bugzilla etiquette [17:29:53] #info upstream BZ plans https://wiki.mozilla.org/BMO/Roadmap_2014 - "I'm especially happy seeing them pushing bmo customisations (that we use or want to use) into upstream code so there's better support / maintenance for them" [17:29:53] andre__: You again :) [17:30:03] heh [17:30:04] #topic Bugzilla Etiquette [17:30:19] (sorry) [17:30:36] #info We finalized the Bugzilla etiquette at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bug_management/Bugzilla_Etiquette after the (long) community discussion on its Talk page went rather silent (implying agreement / acceptance?) :) [17:31:00] #info It is supposed to help everybody understand how things in Bugzilla work well, and to avoid misunderstandings and wrong expectations. [17:31:13] * sumanah will be interested to see the difference between http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23wikimedia-office/20140211.txt and the meetbot log, to see what's more readable to her -- might take some adjusting to really like the summary version! [17:31:34] As I already wrote in the announcement in http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2014-February/074282.html I really liked how engaged and thoughtful the community discussion was, and how the initial version (that I copied from Mozilla) was heavily edited by community members to make the wording more positive and more to the point [17:32:01] Again I would like to thank everybody who participated and helped in creating it! So in case we have some dissent in Bugzilla we now have better guidelines how to solve them [17:32:17] maybe s/dissent/[something else] [17:32:37] (andre: in US English at least, "dissent" generally means legitimate disagreement....) [17:32:46] ah, thanks! Wasn't aware of that [17:32:49] it's ok! [17:32:56] connotations are hard [17:33:42] I don't have much more to add to this topic, I'm just pretty happy how it went (though I didn't expect the discussions to take that long, to be honest) [17:34:03] andre__: do you intend on revisiting it on some schedule, to see whether it helped? [17:34:19] No questions from me; just congrats for leading the discussion to an agreement :) [17:34:29] Probably in about half a year or such, I was thinking [17:34:49] #info we generally congratulate Andre on leading this discussion to an agreement [17:34:59] heh. thanks for the flowers :) [17:35:14] #action around September, andre__ to revisit whether the etiquette guidelines help(ed), consider revisions [17:35:28] sumanah: are there topics you'd like to discuss regarding you work? [17:35:32] your* [17:35:35] Sure! [17:35:41] #topic RFC coordination [17:35:59] #info https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Architecture_meetings/RFC_review_2014-02-14 is coming up on the 14th (Friday) at 1300 UTC [17:36:18] #info in this week's meeting we'll mainly concentrate on TitleValue but we may also talk about other RFCs [17:36:51] #info scheduling is annoying when our architects and the people who want to discuss the relevant RFC are in Australia, California, the US East Coast, Germany, etc. :( [17:37:36] #action this week I, sumanah , need to help shepherd the HTML Formatting/Templating working group to get some more criteria written up for their RFC [17:37:51] sumanah: so these discussions are primarily synchronous? [17:38:12] #action sumanah also needs to help brion get the next bout of architecture guideline improvement going [17:38:14] (since you mention scheduling difficulties) [17:39:20] guillom: the specific RFC review meeting I mention is synchronous; the aim is for the RFC proponents to use it as a useful deadline to anchor the rhythm of their work, and for it to be an opportunity to have synchronous clarification and unblocking-type discussion [17:40:21] Makes sense :) [17:40:32] aude, gwicke Krenair legoktm and yurik -- you may want to read the last few lines of backscroll, about the RFC review meeting this week, and what my TODOs are [17:40:58] YuviPanda also [17:41:25] sure [17:41:33] Anything else on RFC coordination? [17:41:55] I'm also reading the Heath brothers' book _Switch_ about how to help systems change; it's reminding me that this is a change in workflow and I have to be mindful of a lot of stuff there [17:42:08] I think it's important that the emails get sent out a good amount of time in advance like was done for this one, last time I nearly missed the meeting because I only saw the announcement 30 minutes beforehand [17:42:11] like, how to help people change their habits so the RFC process helps, and is a part of that workflow [17:42:25] oh? [17:42:28] * YuviPanda reads backscroll [17:42:30] * yurik wants to rewrite medawiki to use 12-based numeric system... [17:42:31] you're absolutely right legoktm [17:42:50] yurik: Do it in Java, for the fun. [17:42:59] ah, thanks sumanah [17:42:59] Or Lisp, for the lulz. [17:43:13] #action ensure that future RFC review meeting reminders go out several days in advance - sumanah [17:43:38] brainfuck is the ultimate language! [17:43:43] heh [17:43:55] sumanah: Other topics from you? [17:44:03] #info the notes from https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Architecture_Summit_2014 are nearly all cleaned up except I see that other people actually duplicatedsomething [17:44:25] #action unify the two sets of notes from https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Architecture_Summit_2014/Storage_services [17:44:42] #topic OPW [17:45:19] sucheta: yurik heatherw and yurik - thanks again for mentoring OPW :) anything you need from ECT this week? [17:45:52] sumanah, ?? [17:45:56] twice? [17:46:15] sorry, one last note about RfC - I'm glad its being moved to this channel instead of a random one I could never remember the name of [17:46:17] yurik: Sorry, yup, duplicated you there. [17:46:27] i got dbl thanks :) [17:46:35] legoktm: makes sense! yeah. [17:46:37] oh yeah, makes sense, there is no comentor [17:46:50] ok, I'll take that as a "we're fine" [17:47:06] #info the mentors for OPW don't need anything right now from ECT (or will contact sumanah outside of the meeting) :) [17:47:07] * yurik ought to write some reviews :( [17:47:34] yurik: yes, please do, so that people get paid and so that the students and administrators can improve based on your feedback :) [17:47:35] that's it from me guillom! [17:47:44] ok, thank you :) [17:47:51] thank YOU [17:48:00] #topic tech news and ambassadors [17:48:28] sumanah: are you the only one able to change the topic, as meeting chair? [17:48:40] If so, would you mind? :) [17:48:43] weird! I didn't think I was "chair" [17:48:46] #topic tech news and ambassadors [17:48:58] sumanah: you started the meeting [17:49:02] (oh I am the one who did the startmeeting, ah) [17:49:04] sorry! [17:49:10] * guillom reads the doc. Late, but he does. [17:49:25] :) [17:49:26] sumanah: no problem; I'm still getting used to all this. [17:49:31] So [17:50:10] #info We're now routinely advertising tech news on social media channels to increase visibility and, we hope, readership [17:50:40] #info Those channels are: MediaWiki on twitter, facebook and Google+ [17:51:18] And identi.ca? [17:51:53] rdwrer: I gave up on identica when they made using their service so difficult. [17:52:02] -.- [17:52:26] could we autosyndicate from Twitter to identi.ca? [17:52:38] Not AFAIK [17:52:45] Yeah, you can. [17:52:50] Wi used to do the reverse, but then it broke [17:52:53] We [17:53:29] It strikes me as the sort of script that would take, like, an hour to write, with PyPump and an RSS library [17:53:47] rdwrer: Are you volunteering? :) [17:53:58] * sumanah listens :) [17:54:05] Hm, maybe. [17:54:11] I'll see what I can whip up this weekend. [17:54:34] #action rdwrer will try to write a Twitter-to-Identi.ca syndication script this weekend [17:54:55] #info if rdwrer shows up on Monday and doesn't have it, sumanah is willing to give it a shot :) [17:55:17] ok, we have 5 min left [17:55:28] We had this discussion within the social media team a few months ago, and we came to the agreement that there were so few followers there that it didn't warrant the time investid in it. If it's automated, then that works for me :) [17:55:35] guillom: where are we in terms of readership or contributions, and how close is that to the goal? [17:56:03] sumanah: the goal is to increase readership; we're doing that steadily. [17:56:11] no quantitative goal? [17:56:16] I mean, a target #? [17:56:20] No. [17:56:23] * rdwrer starts writing an Elie Wiesel paraphrase then thinks better of it [17:56:55] #info Also, I've has started to create user boxes, as previously discussed, both to increase visibility and to increase volunteer engagement [17:57:06] I am happy re the increased readership :) [17:57:25] #info they're currently on enwp [[w:Template:User wikipedia/Tech ambassador]], [[w:Template:User wikipedia/Tech news]] [17:57:39] #info and meta: [[m:Template:User tech ambassador]] (created independently following a separate discussion), [[m:Template:User tech news translator]], [[m:Template:User tech news]] [17:58:24] #info It's funny that a volunteer requested user boxes independently of our discussiom, and another made one [17:59:02] :) [17:59:06] #info the user boxes are now advertised on [[m:Tech/Ambassadors]] and [[m:Tech/News]], and I'll send an email to the list when I've copied them to a few more wikis [17:59:45] That's about it from me; the rest was covered during the tools review update earlier, and the monthly report doesn't need to be discussed here [18:00:16] Any questions, comments or last-minute topics? [18:00:53] Yay. Thanks everybody! :) [18:01:19] #endmeeting [18:01:19] Meeting ended Tue Feb 11 18:01:19 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) [18:01:19] Minutes: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2014/wikimedia-office.2014-02-11-17.03.html [18:01:19] Minutes (text): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2014/wikimedia-office.2014-02-11-17.03.txt [18:01:19] Minutes (wiki): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2014/wikimedia-office.2014-02-11-17.03.wiki [18:01:20] Log: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2014/wikimedia-office.2014-02-11-17.03.log.html [18:01:33] guillom: may I ask you to do the notes-transfer honors? [18:01:41] (As a sidenote, I'll mention that I was able to attend this IRC meeting and type reasonably fast with reasonably few typos, even though I'm typing on a Bépo keyboard, i.e. French Dvorak \o/ ) [18:01:59] sumanah: sure. Thanks for closing the meeting [18:02:33] congrats on the change in keyboards, guillom :) [18:02:47] I admire how you find new habits that work for you, e.g., standing desk [18:03:12] and I'd appreciate if we somehow, in the long run, manage to find a way to not run ECT meetings at the same time as QA/Release Mgmt meetings, like today again. :P [18:03:26] andre__: Tell Quim :) [18:03:31] andre__: sounds good. at least if one is IRC then it's not too bad! [18:03:33] I will, I will. :P [18:03:46] thanks all [18:03:58] Alright, see you all on the interwebs. [18:03:59] heh. Multiple Google Hangouts at the same time = advanced stuff. :) [18:04:11] andre__: multitasking!!! [18:04:19] multicasting as well! :) [18:04:19] (Multitasking is a lie.) [18:04:37] Time for dinner. :D [18:04:43] Bon appétut. [18:04:48] Appétit, too. [18:04:57] There goes my typo :P [18:05:03] :)