[06:00:22] Good morning office, need help. Right syntx to get the nice format on date, last try {MERGEFIELD Datum \@ "dd. MMMM yyyy"} with result 3/29/2014 but my system-settings are tt.mm.jjjj. How's the wel done syntx? [06:06:14] On german system {MERGEFIELD Datum /@ "tt. MMMM yyyy"} same result 3/29/2014. Field is found, but format string has no effect!? [06:07:30] Trubadix: wrong channel? [06:11:01] ups, not office? [18:54:44] Hey everyone. [18:55:00] I'll be the IRC wallah today. [18:55:23] If you have any questions, feel free to ask them here; I'll try to answer them directly, or get them answered. [18:56:18] We'll be starting in a couple of minutes; will get the feed link ASAP for you. [18:56:53] … he says, to silence. :-) [18:57:04] Are we going to bother with meetbot, James_F ? [18:57:59] rdwrer: The logs have never been of value for these meetings, so… [19:01:38] James_F: was the stream started? [19:02:03] matanya: Not yet. [19:02:06] ok [19:02:44] * JeanFred waves [19:03:47] hey JeanFred :) [19:03:58] Hey JeanFred; stream's about to start. [19:04:50] JeanFred! Hi! [19:04:55] Starting very soon now. [19:05:02] (Lots of "are you ready?"s.) [19:05:36] Hi rfarrand, Eloquence_m James_F :) [19:06:06] Started now. [19:06:19] First up is Erik, doing the top-lines and the metrics review. [19:06:45] James_F: does the Youtube streaming have some delay? I can't see anything yet [19:06:56] just started for me [19:07:06] lzia: Yes, some delay in Google's systems. [19:07:08] quiddity: thanks, mine, too. [19:07:09] in [19:07:17] James_F: thanks! [19:07:53] (Note: someone found out recently that the freeze on blackscreen of "Please stand by", can be due to "https everywhere".) [19:08:18] (a browser extension, for those who aren't familiar) [19:08:27] (What the hell ? Chromium complaining I need Flash plugin to play >_<) [19:09:20] (thx quiddity − that helped :) [19:10:19] what caused the huge drop in 2013? [19:10:31] in the non-english projects [19:10:48] cscott: Will ask. [19:10:59] that seems like a very recent issue -- maybe https? ve? whatever it is, we should find out. [19:11:26] cscott: Asked. [19:11:33] note that there was another drop like that about 5 years ago, i can't see exactly where without that slide on the screen. [19:11:43] lag lag lag [19:12:00] stream isn't working for me :( [19:12:00] in 2010 there was a similar drop [19:12:09] cscott: https://docs.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/presentation/d/1KoqDsXSrdJALcQFG-dPQmyZ23lacnsSBN43teR8E2-g/edit#slide=id.p is the chart. [19:12:53] James_F: thanks [19:13:09] sure, make me reduce my security to watch videos [19:13:36] hell, i've been browsing over insecure https for the past five years, what's a little more insecure browsing. [19:13:44] greg-g: You mean you don't use a sandbox VM for YouTube? [19:14:04] James_F: :/ [19:14:07] James_F: might be related to knowlegde gragh ? [19:14:34] I heard Erik say "Folks complain we concentrate too much on enwiki but " but I missed what followed ; what did he say ? [19:14:50] ^ good Q [19:14:58] matanya: Yeah, or SSL by default, or HTTPS Everywhere, or a change in browser behaviour in e.g. Chrome, or… [19:15:09] :) [19:15:09] matanya: We don't know is I think the summary. [19:15:14] thanks [19:15:23] JeanFred: he said we should continue focusing on en.wiki given that the drop in active editors across all projects is explained by the drop in en.wiki [19:15:36] JeanFred: He said that enwiki's decline was the dominant factor in the global editor numbers, so focussing… yeah, what lzia said. [19:15:37] (paraphrasing here) [19:15:44] Thanks. [19:15:59] netcraft confirms it [19:16:04] Indee! [19:16:05] maybe the drop is because the nsa stopped editing wp once the snowden leaks started ;) [19:16:07] Next up: An update about MediaViewer from Fabrice Florin and Mark Holmquist (rdwrer) [19:16:09] you can actually rewind the video [19:16:18] Starting with some slides. [19:16:25] lzia & James_F : Thanks. Not sure how it makes sense though. Drop in enwiki → drop in other languages ? Just how so? [19:16:58] JeanFred, I think his point is that the drop is happening in enwiki and it's unclear that it is happening in other projects. Though, I wouldn't say that is true. [19:17:05] JeanFred: Drop in enwiki >> rise in non-enwiki -> if we want more editors globally (for Commons, Wikidata, shared knowledge) we should focus on where the balance can be changed. [19:17:26] JeanFred: If you check the gray plot, the drop in that can be mostly explained by the drop in the navy plot, right? The gray one is all-projects, the navy one is en.wiki [19:17:31] See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Refining_the_definition_of_monthly_active_editors for active editor trends in non-enwiki. [19:17:49] German is declining since 2008 [19:17:57] Dutch too [19:18:03] Yeah; it's not saying that only enwiki has issues. [19:19:01] FWIW, our work in Growth with improving the newcomer experience is being deployed broadly. [19:19:27] Extension:GettingStarted is in > 30 wikis ATM. [19:19:34] does clicking the image itself moves to next? That's expected on most other site [19:20:32] James_F: are there plan to allow editing actions in the media viewer? [19:20:49] yurik: No, not currently. [19:20:59] James_F, is it planned? [19:21:06] yurik: I will ask. :-) [19:21:24] ha! [19:21:25] thx :) [19:21:31] (the commentary) [19:21:31] (And for matanya.) [19:21:42] matanya, this would likely happen as part of wikidata integration [19:22:02] thanks Eloquence [19:22:24] yurik: Apparently not. Do you want to file a bug? [19:22:38] i think it would be a good thing (tm) :) [19:22:40] James_F: & lzia : Oh, sure. If this is objective is to raise the global count I guess that makes sense :) [19:23:14] JeanFred: I agree with you. [19:23:44] i turned media viewer off cause it slowed my editing on commons [19:23:44] * James_F tsks rdwrer for the copy-vio in his shirt. :-) [19:24:01] Any questions? [19:24:36] Eloquence_m manages to NSFW the stream. :-) [19:24:59] LOLOLOL [19:25:12] best metric meeting evar [19:25:27] Who knew that TFA might be vandalised?! :-) [19:26:14] nicely done [19:28:56] we love you :) [19:29:07] Thanks Fabrice ;-) [19:29:11] Next up: Tablets defaulting to mobile by Kenan [19:29:20] James_F: What copyvio!? [19:29:38] rdwrer: the Batman logo on your tshirt [19:29:41] rdwrer: Batman. Non-incidental use. [19:29:56] rdwrer: Licensed purely for non-commercial use, I can assure you. [19:30:06] matanya: It should be much faster now, we made the modules a little more modular and only load a small portion of them on every page [19:30:10] rdwrer: Universal etc. are very hot on that. :-) [19:30:20] James_F: Ah, not the shirt I have now, the one I had on three months ag [19:30:23] ...o [19:30:26] rdwrer: Yes. [19:30:58] rdwrer: not preformence wise, fact i need to to click twice to get the file page [19:31:19] wow, kenan is loud :) [19:32:18] yah, microphone too close to mouth. it needs a popsicle stick attached, "no closer to your face than this!" [19:32:27] hey! i can read that!! [19:33:33] We clearly need spoffles on the mics here. [19:33:53] +1 for RTL support [19:34:24] yay cluebot NG! saving us from vandalism. [19:34:47] matanya: Aha. [19:34:53] Any questions? [19:35:08] can i test it? not seen on my tablet [19:35:24] matanya: Go to en.m.wikipedia.org and you'll get the mobile site. [19:35:45] no, i mean by default [19:35:49] matanya: This is talking about automatically redirecting people from en.wikipedia -> en.m.wikipedia for tablets, rather than just phones. [19:35:57] matanya: That's the plan, yes/ [19:36:08] Finally, "ED search update", presumably from Sue. [19:36:12] so not out yet [19:36:23] matanya: Yeah, that was what Kenan was presenting about. [19:36:42] somewhat out of sync, thanks [19:37:23] famous last words "Windows $whatever should behave the same" [19:40:13] (hi... so, were all the candidates from round #1 kicked out or are the two groups overlapping?) [19:41:20] Other questions? [19:41:28] (Will ask WikiGnom's.) [19:41:39] is video ok? [19:41:54] what was the international distribution of the candidates like? (and especially those who got into the shorter lists)? [19:42:01] Video seems to be OK for me. [19:42:11] video and sound are ok [19:42:29] refreshed, back to normal [19:42:33] Kk. [19:42:53] <^d> "Product-engineering-internet-stuff" [19:42:55] <^d> Heh [19:43:07] ^d: You laugh, but that's a tag on linkedin. [19:43:14] ^d: *I*nternet, thankyousoverymuch. [19:43:44] matanya: several projects are running a JS to directly link to Commons when clicking on a thumb (no hance that would happen on en.wp though I suppose :p) [19:43:45] James_F: only if you mean the 'series of tools', not internal internetworks ;) [19:43:59] s/tools/tubes/ [19:44:03] <^d> rdwrer: It's just a funny way of putting it :) [19:44:11] rdwrer: thanks [19:44:11] JeanFred: linky? [19:44:45] cscott: Absolutely, but as we're talking ED and not CTO… :-) [19:45:05] matanya: fr.wp does that − just see any image https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Accueil_principal [19:45:13] thanks [19:45:23] matanya: I can try to unearth the JS if you want [19:45:30] i do :) [19:45:46] Any more? [19:46:57] James_F: how do we vote? [19:47:20] lzia1: raise your hand. ;) [19:47:26] by typing in "+" at the right moment? [19:47:28] lzia1: Good question. Shout here and I'll hold up multiple fingers? [19:47:32] cscott: :D [19:47:42] James_F: thanks [19:47:59] on the other hand, if it's a vote about space allocation in the SFO office, then you can safely ignore most remote votes ;) [19:48:06] yupp [19:48:11] I vote for more space [19:48:13] cscott: True. [19:48:17] i vote for more remote space [19:48:22] i vote for row D in eqiad [19:48:26] i'm still looking forward to finalizing that hub agreement. [19:48:27] cscott: I am local. ;-) [19:48:27] * James_F grins. [19:48:38] <^d> If you're wfm can we vfh? [19:48:57] matanya: it’s taht one https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Snippets/Direct_imagelinks_to_Commons [19:49:00] I do ! [19:49:02] Sure, we do! [19:49:04] yes, James will count you [19:49:04] me, too [19:49:05] :D [19:49:08] <^d> matanya: We have row D ;-) [19:49:10] (other James not me ;) ) [19:49:22] we have an opinion in any case!!!!1 [19:49:22] thanks JeanFred [19:49:32] jamesofur: You can help. [19:49:46] ^d: i know, i'm still voting for it :) [19:49:47] * JeanFred wonders if he‘s supposed to raise his hand [19:49:57] JeanFred: non, mon ami [19:50:05] gah, I'm delayed 3 minutes and there's a vote goign on? [19:50:09] how about, I don't know, loomio? [19:50:14] Yeah [19:50:16] greg-g, that's a problem. :/ [19:50:16] That [19:50:36] <^d> +1 [19:50:36] * mwalker|alt raises hand [19:50:37] James_F, can you type the questions when they're raised so that we don't have log issues? [19:50:42] * matanya raises hand for space at $day_job [19:50:42] I am SO glad to be able to follow up on the office space at San Francisco :p [19:50:46] when I visit I'm so compressed it is easier to wake up early and work [19:50:47] I'm only at the phrasing of the first question now. [19:50:49] * jgonera raising hand [19:50:53] Q1: +! [19:50:55] +1 [19:50:57] "if you work on the 3rd floor SFO and feel like your personal workspace is too crowded" [19:51:02] to the other question she just raied [19:51:05] * StevenW raises hand for "has enough space" on three [19:51:07] Question 1: For those on the third floor, do you feel you have too little space? [19:51:14] Thanks, James_F. [19:51:17] Question 2: For those on the third floor, do you feel you have enough / too much space? [19:51:23] Question 3: Not yet asked. [19:51:24] Q1: /me raises hand [19:51:25] Q2: +1 [19:51:29] (I just dropped the mike.) [19:51:33] my feet are not square [19:51:33] ? [19:51:35] Q2: I have enough space [19:51:46] what is the q1 and q2 thing? [19:51:53] What are people saying? [19:51:54] seriously, this isn't going to be a representative bote [19:51:55] vote [19:51:57] gry: James_F just typed it [19:51:58] gry, q1 is "question 1" [19:52:02] how do you measure space in linear feet? [19:52:03] missed it [19:52:08] gry talking about the SF office space. Sue is asking staff during the Monthly Metrics meeting [19:52:09] greg-g: Indeed. [19:52:09] To be fair Sue said Q1 was probably 'mostly' for 3rd floor but not just for 3rd, so if you don't think you have room on 6 then it counters there too [19:52:17] cscott: Badly. MURIKA! [19:52:19] (to be fair on 6 the place where that is mostly an issue is likely LCA corner) [19:52:21] oh, okay; i wouldn't know [19:52:28] i <3 crowded workspaces though [19:52:32] (And this is livestreamed over the Internets ? Transparency for the win :-þ) [19:52:39] Question 3: Do people feel we have not enough meeting space now that we've improved the booking spaces? [19:52:50] irc is enough meeting space [19:52:51] James_F: more nuance needed for that one [19:52:54] Question 3 - +1, James_F. [19:52:55] gry: +1 [19:53:01] :) [19:53:05] greg-g: What nuance? [19:53:08] James_F: somewhat off-topic, but it would be nice to continue to affirm support for remote workers, particularly new hires. I think there is a feeling among remote people that local has been strongly favored in recent times. [19:53:09] +1 not enough space [19:53:12] James_F: types of meeting space [19:53:16] yes [19:53:17] for meeting rooms [19:53:17] +1 on meeting room issues [19:53:22] greg-g: "All". [19:53:23] * StevenW raises hand about meeting rooms. [19:53:28] * ^d doesn't have meeting space problems [19:53:29] James_F: Yes and No, then :P [19:53:34] so, yes, I guess [19:53:36] * ^d also has less meetings than others [19:53:37] (Have added 10 to the count for q3.) [19:53:45] raised [19:53:46] :D [19:53:47] Yes! Phone booths. They have them in this coworking space I'm in and it's good. [19:53:54] Question 3 - James_F, scheduling recurring meetings remains difficult. [19:54:05] Maggie_Dennis++ [19:54:10] James_F: can you tell Sue there exists IRC [19:54:22] lzia1: She knows… why? [19:54:28] James_F: ah, now that my stream is there, I hear sue's nuance :) [19:54:30] +1 on meeting rooms, with echoing rooms (and echoey technology) being a close-additional problem. [19:54:31] she keeps saying: I assume not [19:54:34] greg-g: Ha. [19:54:39] James_F, the last thing that I heard was her saying that there was no feedback on IRC. :) [19:54:43] THERE IS IRC [19:54:45] This really needs to be on Loomio. [19:54:49] SERIOUSLY [19:54:49] James_F: ^ [19:54:56] +1 to StevenW [19:55:01] "I assume there is no irc" is not right! [19:55:06] StevenW: So 50% of the staff don't ever see it? :-) [19:55:14] greg-g: i find it very hard to take phone calls in the IRC room [19:55:15] James_F: which 50%? [19:55:24] * greg-g grumbles [19:55:25] StevenW: Staff on Loomio < 0.5 * staff at WMF. [19:55:27] <^d> wmfall or wmfsf so we actually reach everyone :) [19:55:37] James_F: what % of wmfsf staff? [19:55:37] James_F: which. you're missing 50% right now too [19:55:39] <^d> loomio + irc + real voting doesn't get everyone [19:55:42] 94 vs. 210 or so [19:55:47] greg-g: True. [19:55:51] Question 4: How would people feel if we put desks in the collab space, and eroded its use somewhat? [19:55:52] what margin of error do we need here [19:56:00] (Lots and lots of nuance.) [19:56:20] It's not just that we're missing IRC. It's that polling via hands in the meeting is not documented. [19:56:23] Q4: I think it's good to keep the collab space [19:56:34] StevenW: Lie. It's being documented right in front of my eyes. [19:56:37] Q4: no, keep collab space. Or admit we no longer want tech meetups [19:56:55] James_F: human memories are highly unreliable [19:56:56] Also, "decisions are made by those who turn up" is a bad reason to only ask these questions on Loomio (or wherever). [19:56:58] why is there not a third option -- 'optimize' the 6th floor? [19:56:58] Question 4 was something to do with collab space, is that right? [19:57:03] * jgonera raising hand [19:57:05] StevenW: "documented". [19:57:07] StevenW: Lynette is writing it down [19:57:14] StevenW: Maybe you don't understand what that word means. :-) [19:57:18] keep the collab space, I have filled it for presentations in the past [19:57:19] rdwrer: it's not on a wiki? ;) [19:57:34] Question 5: Do you feel the need for a dedicated physical 'quiet space' where you can work? [19:57:35] cscott: It better be, Lynette knows better [19:57:35] mwalker|alt: we're already in the process of trying to do that, I imagine that's taken for granted [19:57:41] James_F: don't be a wanker [19:57:42] James_F: ask Lynette to share the notes so that those of us, who are being disenfrnachised, can bote [19:57:43] (with the designers) [19:57:43] James_F: can you ask her if we can have this on loomio? [19:57:45] vote [19:57:54] * James_F sighs at people ABF just for the hell of it. [19:57:54] James_F, +` to keeping collab spaces collab. (I abstain from question 5 - but see the need.) [19:58:02] Q5 that would be nice [19:58:07] Q5: Yes [19:58:15] Yes to no interruptions space [19:58:18] <^d> Absolutely. [19:58:30] the space Oliver saying is way too small [19:58:31] "open concept offices" suck for productivity [19:58:32] personally i work from home if i need a 'no interruptions' space [19:58:33] we need more quite places [19:58:36] please give me some sane place [19:59:03] <^d> cscott: That's difficult when you need to have meetings and be productive in the same day. [19:59:18] Personally I work weekends when I need quiet space. But that's not an option for many staff. [19:59:25] ^d: is that a contradiction in terms? [19:59:34] Others have commitments like partners/family/a social life. [19:59:40] James_F: please ask for loomio votes, Pleaaaase. :-) [19:59:46] James_F: that's not even a reasonable suggestion, if you want to have people other than single 20 year olds working at WMF [20:00:09] <^d> cscott: productive in the "bury my head and be quiet" [20:00:14] greg-g: As I just said. I'm confused at your confrontational tone. :-( [20:00:30] sorry, that wasn't meant to be confrontational [20:00:34] James_F: my apologies [20:00:36] greg-g: I was observing how everyone struggles with this, and "solutions" that we have now are no solution at all. [20:00:38] greg-g: i agree re: weekends; keeping the kid entertained is a full-time weekend job at this point. [20:00:43] greg-g: Or in other words, "yes, I agree". [20:01:04] I guess I'm frustrated because I'm actively disenfranchised in this conversation, where I might have some useful tidbits given WHY I choose to work from home [20:01:30] greg-g: This isn't "the" conversation, it's "a" conversation. This isn't final-decision time or anything like that. [20:01:32] anyway, i'm not trying to be confrontational either. probably a pilot is the best way to judge use. i wouldn't use it, but i (a) don't work from sfo, and (b) would work from home. not everyone is me. [20:01:33] James_F: maybe you can summarize the thoughts from IRC? [20:01:39] on the mic [20:01:40] greg-g: But I'll summ… yes, what rfarrand said. [20:01:52] James_F: it's getting close to *the* conversation given the timeline and who we're talking to [20:01:53] quiet hour/s? like adult swim time ;) [20:01:57] * ^d needs more space too [20:02:14] <^d> (Not everyone likes open office & working super close to people) [20:02:32] ^d++ [20:02:33] or maybe try quiet times? (instead of spaces, designate a time in the day for that)... [20:02:40] Meeting is over I guess ? No other topic except for office space and 5th floor shall be addressed today? [20:02:48] ^d: including science. Science says open space makes you work less efficiently. [20:02:53] <^d> James_F: I'm not afraid of that. [20:03:01] James_F: thanks! [20:03:06] greg-g: citation? [20:03:07] ^d: Of what? [20:03:14] <^d> "Being the discussion" [20:03:16] halfak: I've sent a couple to wmfsf@ [20:03:20] <^d> But +1 to wider discussion. [20:03:25] * mwalker|alt raises hand for q5 [20:03:28] Elder isn't medium - it's large. [20:03:31] ^d: I said "lots" not "consensus". [20:03:49] ^d: But fair point. [20:03:55] James_F: phew! you made me so happy [20:04:07] lzia1: Happy to help! [20:04:09] thanks so much for that comment/suggestion James_F (just got there in the stream) [20:04:21] Not on wmfsf [20:04:29] Yes, thanks, James_F. :) (I'm also lagging on IRC - long gaps and then a billion messages all at once.) [20:04:30] <^d> James_F: Thank you. [20:04:51] greg-g: Always. Just because I can muddle through doesn't mean that I think we've got it worked out. [20:04:59] greg-g: It sucks, definitely. [20:05:29] Let's hope the resident of 5th don't hang out on YouTube. :) [20:05:42] Maggie_Dennis: haha [20:05:43] Maggie_Dennis: :-D [20:06:06] halfak: a pop article that links to 'real' articles: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/currency/2014/01/the-open-office-trap.html [20:06:14] Thanks greg-g [20:06:28] halfak: " Your Sunday New Yorker reading - Open Offices" [20:06:43] Any last minute questions? [20:06:45] … [20:06:47] No. [20:06:48] the-libre-office-trap.html [20:06:49] OK, bye! [20:06:55] rdwrer: Ha. [20:07:23] greg-g: science may say that open space makes you work less efficiently, but science also says that less efficient work can cause better decisions. http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/01/21/diverse_groups_make_better_decisions.html [20:07:31] Thanks, James_F. :) [20:07:32] James_F: thanks. see you later [20:07:40] James_F: and James_F and chip etc... thanks!!! [20:07:40] mm, lunch [20:07:52] mm, bedtime [20:09:58] cscott: you miss-characterized [20:10:18] Well, that was super interesting as always (putting aside the last 20 minutes or so :-þ) thanks to everyone especially the speakers. :) [20:10:21] cscott: talking to more people == better decisions, yes, but I should be able to not hear all those other danged conversations :) [21:15:34] rdwrer: Ping. [21:19:42] rdwrer: Never mind. My invite exemption wasn't working for the staff channel because my cloak changed from wikipedia to wikimedia, but I fixed it myself. :) [21:36:17] Deskana: Uhhh, I bet you did it wrong [21:37:10] ...oh, no, you're good [21:37:16] Deskana: You removed the old rule? [21:39:03] rdwrer: I did. [21:39:09] It was *!*@wikipedia/Deskana. [21:39:14] You're awesome [21:39:34] I changed it to $a:Deskana. [21:40:50] See also awesome [21:40:56] <3