[18:52:46] Right, we'll be starting a weirdly schizophrenic public/internal meeting in here in about 7 minutes [18:55:14] * greg-g looks around [18:55:17] what? [18:55:19] internal? [18:55:24] I.... not fair! [18:55:34] :( [18:55:35] Well, it's about internal things, but it's a publicly accessible meeting [18:55:41] oh [18:55:52] Very strange dynamic but I don't really have any worries about it [18:55:58] I interpreted as "in person" for some reason [18:56:01] no no [18:56:03] It's all IRC [18:56:03] whew [18:56:16] Probably with brief interludes where we all test video conferencing things [18:56:30] :) [18:56:38] :) [18:56:52] I'm at a coffee shop without a camera-enabled laptop, so I can do "on a weird connection with audio only" tsting :) [18:57:49] Fun times [18:58:42] #startmeeting WMF Free Software Advocacy Group formation meeting [18:58:42] Meeting started Thu Mar 20 18:58:42 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is rdwrer. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. [18:58:42] Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. [18:58:42] The meeting name has been set to 'wmf_free_software_advocacy_group_formation_meeting' [18:58:49] #topic Group formation [18:59:06] #info scfc_de has not yet fixed the effing meetbot instance [18:59:13] hehe :P [18:59:24] #info rdwrer has not yet volunteered to fix the effing meetbot tool [19:00:13] #action rdwrer to investigate meetbot configuration and maybe fix the topic changes, filed as bug 61042 [19:00:27] OK but seriously, welcome to the free software meeting thingy [19:00:31] Let's start it up [19:00:38] hello [19:00:40] ohai [19:00:53] whee [19:00:56] I've written up a bunch of preliminary notes and outlines and things [19:00:58] #link http://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/fsag-2014-03-20 [19:01:10] I'll port that over to a wiki page at the end, so don't use markdown or whatever [19:01:12] * greg-g reads [19:01:26] First thing on the agenda is the structure of the group [19:02:14] I've tentatively asserted that the group should be basically a formless fact-finding entity, tasked with gathering *requirements* from staff and investigating *solutions* based on those criteria [19:02:22] I'm happy to co-facilitate as needed [19:02:27] *nod* [19:02:35] agree. [19:02:45] I don't anticipate that any real leadership will be needed, but each meeting should ideally have a chair - having a co-chair as well is nice [19:02:49] #chair greg-g [19:02:49] Current chairs: greg-g rdwrer [19:03:13] Hi all [19:03:16] So as long as we have a few people around to call meetings and run things from a bureaucratic standpoint, that should be enough [19:03:21] #info greg-g now has power [19:03:40] * anomie wonders if meetbot has any other furniture-people [19:04:06] #sofa ragesoss [19:04:13] #agreed Seems like "basically formless" is a good way to describe the group - greg-g will be co-chair and help out in absences of marktraceur [19:04:22] +1 [19:04:26] +1 [19:04:26] #topic Scheduling [19:04:48] I kind of want to kick this topic to the end [19:04:53] Oh, we can do [19:05:01] because my answer will be "it depends on what we decide to do as homework" [19:05:06] As long as we reserve about ten minutesish [19:05:10] yeah [19:05:19] Because I intend for "form of meetings in the future" to be part of the question [19:05:37] #agreed Tabling scheduling for now because we have open questions about homework that will play into the answer [19:05:43] #topic Video conferencing [19:06:02] rdwrer: Please don't let wm-labs-meetbot` break the /topic. [19:06:06] Ta James_F [19:06:19] James_F: 2014-03-20 - 12:00:13 #action rdwrer to investigate meetbot configuration and maybe fix the topic changes, filed as bug 61042 [19:06:34] Anyway [19:06:37] ++ [19:06:52] I'd like us to run through discussion of a few options [19:06:58] The first one we have is BigBlueButton [19:07:11] #link http://bigbluebutton.org/ [19:07:17] I thought flash-based-ness made that one not viable? [19:07:30] AndyRussG: That would be an open question, but there are other pitfalls I'd like to discuss [19:07:30] or less than optimal? [19:07:32] BBB is (actively?) developing a webrtc version, right? [19:07:38] Especially since BBB is...yeah, what greg-g said [19:07:57] Ah OK didn't know that [19:08:01] #info BBB flash-based, non-starter, but WebRTC would fix that (and RTC-based BBB is in beta now) [19:08:05] so, I'm very pro a webrtc vesion that has a central badwidth provider, because the pure p2p solutions don't scale [19:08:15] Yeah, absolutely [19:08:21] greg-g: Is chatb.org one of those? [19:08:27] I... don't know [19:08:41] Hm. OK, we may need to investigate that later [19:08:45] Anyway [19:08:57] The other potential pitfalls of BBB include a Java applet for screensharing [19:09:16] Also the fact that the interface has a few things we likely wouldn't use [19:09:23] Any links on BBB's webRTC efforts? Info on how far along they are? [19:09:34] right, it is a bit bloated, mostly desinged for the horrible "webinar" community [19:09:45] Since it was built primarily for teaching remotely, it has stuff like collaborative drawing and web page viewing that could maybe clot things for us [19:10:14] Does "collaborative drawing" mean "whiteboard"? [19:10:22] cause that'd actually be kinda handy [19:10:28] I wonder if any of these things are actually issues, or if I'm imagining things [19:10:47] Anyway, one big plus is we have an instance hosted on WM hardware already [19:10:47] #idea create a table on wiki with tools vs requirements, fill in [19:10:50] #link http://videoconf.wikimedia.ch/ [19:11:10] ++ greg-g [19:12:07] OK, let's move on to chatb.org [19:12:29] This is the portion of the meeting where video tools are actually viable for running on my computer, so I propose trying to stress-test them [19:12:45] #link https://chatb.org [19:12:55] As a prelude, this doesn't yet have screen sharing [19:12:59] there is stuff made by debian : https://rtc.debian.org/ [19:13:13] matanya: cool, let's try that after chatb now [19:13:19] shall we try to all join a chatb? [19:13:21] https://chatb.org/#GKWMIZSSIRLSFK [19:13:39] Joining [19:16:40] Hmm seems to have killed my Iceweasel [19:16:51] I had opened the page but nothing happened because I have flashblock [19:17:11] And I was just about cleaning up my backdrop before unblocking flash [19:17:23] OK [19:17:26] someone write up a quick summary of that experience [19:17:27] Success to some extent [19:17:36] #info 8 people were able to join [19:17:40] I think Brad had the crash problem too [19:17:41] Trying again [19:17:44] It wouldn't work on iceweasel for me, AndyRussG, but I assume because of HTTPS everywhere. [19:17:48] #info No mute-others button, so we had to rely on people being nice [19:17:57] No, no crash for me. Just trying different browsers to see if I could get sound. [19:17:57] worked on Iceweasel for me, and I have flashblock/noscript installed [19:17:59] ragesoss: i use it too and it worked [19:18:00] but it was usable in Chromium. [19:18:13] #info (chatb) Firefox and Iceweasel seem to work, but spotty - Chromium takes it like a champ [19:18:19] No sound in Iceweasel here, sound in Chromium. [19:18:26] matanya: you used in in FF/IW with HTTPS Everywhere, or without? [19:18:27] #info (chatb) greg-g reported lost text in the chat [19:18:36] ragesoss: with [19:18:41] not sure if i was on .. but i could see a number of you. [19:18:43] me too rdwrer [19:18:45] #info (chatb) Some people were unable to join, at least for video - maybe bandwidth issues [19:18:58] #info (chatb) matanya also lost text in the chat [19:19:17] OK, let's move on to Yet Another WebRTC Solution, which was brought in last-minute - meet.jit.si [19:19:23] rdwrer: for video, you must approve manually on some firefox versions [19:19:31] #link https://meet.jit.si/54pv3cyumeptlnmi [19:19:45] matanya: Should be the case on *any* WebRTC client, IIRC [19:19:51] ah, approve manually must have been the hitch. I got no 'allow webcam' dialog. [19:19:58] "This application is currently only supported by Chrome, Chromium and Opera [19:20:01] Download Chrome" [19:20:02] worked OK for me in Firefox 28 on Ubuntu 13.04, big lag on a chunk of chat text update [19:20:13] #info No Firefox support [19:20:30] ^that was my experience with chatb [19:20:46] Iceweasel now froze... [19:20:48] way better [19:21:05] #info (chatb) spagewmf could get FF 28 working [19:21:39] I liked meet.jit.si. [19:21:40] Are people unable to join? [19:22:12] con: No way to tell who has the really loud typing [19:22:32] True [19:22:41] OK I did join on chatb [19:22:54] AndyRussG: No luck with jitmeet? [19:23:02] Trying now [19:24:24] K I'm there [19:26:47] #info (JitMeet) etherpad feature would be nice if it worked [19:26:49] Can people hear me at all? [19:27:07] I can hear you mark [19:27:13] #info (JitMeet) matanya experienced bad audio quality [19:27:54] somewhat bad audio quality here too, but not unusable [19:28:17] #info (JitMeet) Apparentnly greg-g could get the Etherpad working [19:28:32] #info (JitMeet) Dat emoticon set [19:29:05] ok am joining [19:29:38] We'll wrap up JitMeet in about a minute [19:29:43] After YuviPanda has joined [19:29:54] I can't hear anyone [19:29:59] at all [19:30:04] I think someone's speaking [19:30:11] it might be chris. [19:30:18] * csteipp is talking [19:30:19] I can't see anyone else's video also [19:30:21] yeah [19:30:27] crashed [19:30:28] I can see only you, csteipp [19:30:30] I can't hear csteipp [19:30:35] #info (JitMeet) YuviPanda couldn't join, sadface.jpg [19:30:38] ok, I can see matanya now [19:30:42] rdwrer: hi rdwrer [19:30:42] ya'll have audio? [19:30:52] rdwrer: I can't talk, have prtksxna sleeping behind me [19:30:55] I'm hearing something [19:30:55] ok [19:31:05] wtf was that noise?! [19:31:21] #info (JitMeet) No /me support, KILL IT WITH FIRE [19:31:23] ok, there's an intense drilling type noise going on [19:31:34] Don't know, I asked and was only mocked in response [19:31:49] now there's intense white noise [19:31:53] AndyRussG: We were able to hear you [19:31:55] I can only see mark and S [19:32:04] But I think now with many people joined it's deteriorating [19:32:09] * rdwrer closes [19:32:18] eughh [19:32:19] OK, let's talk about the aggregate [19:32:35] I think we can agree that neither of those RTC options are ready for big meetings [19:32:52] JitMeet remembered my nick upon rejoining. That's something. [19:32:52] Hmmm [19:32:57] This may be because of the peer-to-peer nature of them, but we may want to investigate whether that's the case [19:33:02] * YuviPanda concurs [19:33:02] Where did you set your nick? [19:33:06] That last seemed to be having a "netsplit" of some sort, some people could see/hear certain other people but not others. [19:33:12] #action Figure out whether JitMeet/chatb are peer-to-peer or centralized [19:33:16] I thought it asked for one to join [19:33:18] AndyRussG: I was prompted when I first clicked the chat icon. [19:33:38] Hmmm maybe I just blindly clicked and didn't notice [19:33:54] Would people be comfortable suggesting either of these options for one-on-one or smallish meetings? [19:34:25] I think ragesoss said he might use chatb for it [19:34:43] I had a better experience with JitMeet, actually. [19:34:52] jitmeet was the best for me so far, apart from white noise [19:35:07] either would be usable-ish. [19:35:10] and breaking audio when people join [19:35:13] Me too, though with Chromium I did eventually join chatb [19:35:18] 'kay - could we maybe make a recommendation of JitMeet on-list for small meetings? Or should we reach out to do more bug triaging with upstream first? [19:35:23] e.g. Firefox support [19:35:30] And a working Etherpad [19:35:42] Also would be nice to figure out that netsplit issue for JitMeet. [19:35:52] anomie: I'm not sure I saw that issue [19:35:54] one key question for either one... can you create a meeting link well in advance and expect it to work at meeting time? [19:36:06] Hard to beat Google Calendar's "Add hangout" integration. [19:36:07] Hmmm [19:36:14] Also, what about doing a test on the bandwith issue? [19:36:15] rdwrer: Like how I couldn't see/hear Yuvi or a bunch of other people, but they could see/hear each other [19:36:25] ragesoss: I think so. I've rejoined meetings after everyone quit without issue [19:36:28] spagewmf: if you put the link in the calendar event, it's nearly as good. [19:36:42] rdwrer: but what about a week later? [19:36:57] ragesoss: That, I'm not as sure about. Let me try rejoining the one we had yesterday. [19:37:17] agreed. We already do that for etherpad links. If a tool had easy simultaneous Etherpad and video, it could be a win over Google [19:37:55] Yeah, going to the same link later will restart the meeting [19:38:06] I'm not sure about the etherpad's persistence, though - one sec [19:38:18] i saw there fosdem talk [19:38:19] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC210m5rr6E&feature=youtu.be [19:38:46] OK, still issues with their EPL integration [19:39:06] #action (JitMeet) Figure out if etherpads persist after everyone leaves the meeting [19:39:45] Based on the fact that the video chat will definitely persist, though - is this something we'd be comfortable recommending? [19:40:15] can it be self-hosted? [19:40:25] this might resolve this concern [19:41:07] How about a test of jitsi with a prior test of bandwidth or conneciton quality via some other tool, and everyone on the same, latest version of Chromium? [19:41:11] matanya: Believe so, yes. [19:41:36] #link https://github.com/jitsi/jitmeet [19:41:48] So we should be able to run that locally [19:42:07] rdwrer: that'll definitely improve bandwidth [19:42:11] AndyRussG: Do you want to try that now? I don't think I have the latest version of Chromium [19:42:29] I have 32 [19:42:49] Hah [19:42:49] Version 34.0.1827.0 custom aura (249533) [19:42:53] I guess I have a pretty good version [19:43:09] Hmmm [19:43:35] Chromium 33.0.1750.152 is latest for firefox [19:43:49] AndyRussG: I think the bandwidth we saw between the first 4-5 people was basically representative of what I'd expect in The Real World [19:44:38] that makes sense, just wondering if it's worth trying to eliminate what the issues were [19:44:44] Oh, sure [19:44:53] If that's something we want to do first, we can [19:45:06] may not be, just a thought [19:45:27] #action Test JitMeet's effectiveness normalized for connection speed and browser version [19:46:14] I guess there's nobody else interested in pushing either of these tools to the staff list - we can postpone that until after we act on a few of the action items we have. [19:46:27] Also... [19:46:54] #action Find information about BigBlueButton's work on WebRTC - determine if it will be enough of a change that we can recommend that as a solution [19:48:06] #topic Scheduling [19:48:45] All right, last thing [19:49:00] When should we meet again, and should it still be IRC-only (and if not, what should we use?) [19:49:17] IRC4LYFE [19:49:21] I picked IRC because it was the easiest inoffensive thing I could think of [19:49:35] But I know Deskana was (maybe trollifically) preferring a video chat [19:49:36] The meeting just became a recursive method [19:50:54] * rdwrer wonders about preferences of brion, anomie, greg-g [19:51:13] * anomie has no medium preference, as long as it's something that works ;) [19:51:24] i'm fine with irc [19:51:26] IRCCCCC [19:51:36] ASCIIIIIIIII [19:51:40] I think Yuvi's got some echo. [19:51:44] mute ur keyboard. [19:51:44] OK, what about timing? [19:51:56] We have a bunch of research questions out as action items, but I doubt they'll take much time [19:52:00] IRC is good (sorry was multitasking, which is the downfall of irc) [19:52:06] * greg-g was being pinged everywhere [19:52:09] brion: suely you mean unicode [19:52:27] do/can any of the video chat offerings integrate a web IRC window? [19:52:57] spagewmf: I think JitMeet uses XMPP for its chat [19:54:09] Given no particular insight from the crowd, I'm going to suggest two weeks from now as our second meeting [19:54:18] sounds good [19:54:23] * AndyRussG is cool w/ that [19:54:25] That will be April the 3rd, at lunchtime PDT [19:54:51] #action Schedule meeting for 2014-04-03 12:00 PDT [19:55:05] (off-topic: In fact any of the video call options, even a non-integrated chat, are preferable to Google, since chats in hangouts disappear w/ no record, which is awful) [19:55:06] I'll try to wrangle our video-related action items before then [19:55:19] whee [19:55:38] And probably enlist help from some of you over time :) [19:56:04] So, successful meeting and I look forward to doing it again soon [19:56:07] it would be nice if the chat window in our video tool (that most people have never used or heard of) was IRC (that many people have never used) [19:56:13] Anything else? Closing remarks? [19:56:26] thanks y'all [19:56:38] sounds like a plan [19:56:48] w00t for the first meeting! [19:57:00] Thanks rdwrer, everyone. [19:57:15] #endmeeting [19:57:15] Meeting ended Thu Mar 20 19:57:15 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) [19:57:15] Minutes: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2014/wikimedia-office.2014-03-20-18.58.html [19:57:15] Minutes (text): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2014/wikimedia-office.2014-03-20-18.58.txt [19:57:15] Minutes (wiki): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2014/wikimedia-office.2014-03-20-18.58.wiki [19:57:16] Log: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2014/wikimedia-office.2014-03-20-18.58.log.html [19:58:45] Stuck minutes in https://office.wikimedia.org/wiki/Free_software_advocacy_group/Meetings/2014-03-20/Minutes [20:05:17] Oh, lol. [20:05:22] Two weeks from now is Metrics. [20:05:32] * rdwrer will schedule it not-at-12:00