[00:00:01] 3. Problems with biographies of living people/revenge editing (opt-out for marginally notable people? pending changes?) [00:00:22] Philippe, would transcript of that communication be availabale online, and if so where? Thanks. [00:00:35] Guest38632: the channel is logged [00:00:45] * Jasper_Deng doesn't remember where [00:00:48] Jasper_Deng: I know for a fact that doesn't work in my school, seeing some teachers (this may apply for more than one school) find wikimedia (Mainly Wikipedia) unreliable. This is because it's open-source and everyone can edit. [00:00:50] http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23wikimedia-office/20140521.txt [00:00:58] 4. Ensuring movement resources are spent in a way that benefits the projects/end users [00:01:04] Andreas_ -- thanks, helpful for me to look into more and understand [00:01:09] I think sDrewth has a very good point about the paid editing stuff, which can actually be quite harmful to some of the sister projects - Commons in particular, where we have a huge number of professionals who share their images there, complete with link to their commercial sites [00:01:11] Guest38632, what communication? [00:01:12] they will be posted at the link in the topic [00:01:18] (4. is something something Sue has commented on before) [00:01:20] karma: My feelings are that Wikipedia can be used for research if done properly [00:01:22] (the meta IRC Office hours page) [00:01:29] specifically, people should only rely on reliably cited statements [00:01:39] Evrything that we are discussing now of course [00:01:43] Jasper_Deng: I agree, but some people don't realize that. [00:01:57] more reachout needed that means [00:01:57] Guest38632: Yeah, see https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours [00:02:09] We'll post the logs from this meeting there afterwards. [00:02:17] 5. Some problems with the way NSFW material pops up, and consent issues concerning people depicted (see this month's Wikimedia-l discussions) [00:02:34] NSFW and paid editing are loaded topics [00:02:35] lilatretikov: you will see that the WPs have the prominence in lots of things, including problems. We have social and technical issues, and a very disparate approach to how they are handled. [00:03:40] resources seem to follow a squeaky wheel (social or technical), and no clarity against a master plan [00:04:13] Jasper_Deng there are education efforts in flight + the Wiki Education Foundation in NA that focus on ed, both higher and K-12 [00:04:37] @lilatretikov: indeed! :) @jasper_deng: agreed @karma: you might share this page with your teachers : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Researching_with_Wikipedia [00:04:54] AnnaKoval: I wondered if you were here and would weigh in on that :) [00:05:00] ;) [00:05:16] Do you agree that the foundation should have more involvement with centers of institutions/news corporations about donating quality source material or a subscription for all established editors to use like the New York Times or LexisNexis [00:05:25] sDrewth -- i think social and technical need to be considered in tandem, one cannot be successful without the other [00:06:04] AnnaKoval: Alright. [00:06:14] If they're willing. :P [00:06:38] sDrewth -- re: resourcing -- this is something that needs to follow high-level priorities, which i think need to be addressed as we do our next strategy development [00:07:34] Aranda56 -- we are trying a few things there, like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:The_Wikipedia_Library [00:07:44] lilatretikov: no dispute, I was more pointing to a disparate approach [00:07:54] lilatretikov: What can the Wikimedia Foundation do to reach out to contributors who are not, shall I call them, the stereotypical Wikipedia editor? [00:08:32] litatretikov but the foundation isn't involved with The Wikipedia Library however, only volunteers as far as I know [00:08:32] Aranda56 in general i beleive programs need to support our mission [00:08:36] Ocaasi in particular has done fine work with the Wikipedia Library [00:08:45] Lila, do you consider hiring paid professionals to handle arbitration? Thank you. [00:09:03] Aranda56 -- the library is supported byt the WMF (funding) AFAIK [00:09:09] oh ok [00:09:24] (Yeah, that's an IEG - individual engagement grant - supported project) [00:09:42] * philippe waves to harej [00:09:46] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/The_Wikipedia_Library [00:10:02] Hi Philippe! [00:10:27] harej -- do you mean any specific group? what are the characteristics of the contibutors you'd like to see? [00:11:01] following up with @karma i understand. it may not be easy, and you may not succeed at convincing your teachers that wikipedia's not bad, but i hope you'll try. :) you can also send them to: education.wikipedia.org or have them email education@wikimedia.org -- and we'll try to change their minds, too. ;) [00:11:02] On a related note, what do you believe about current editor demographics? [00:11:27] Jasper_Deng: Do you wanna narrow that down a little? [00:11:31] That's pretty broad :) [00:11:38] @karma: that's coming from someone who [00:11:47] is a teacher herself [00:11:53] oops hit enter too soon :\ [00:12:05] Do you believe that there are some regions where we don't have enough editors from? [00:12:10] lilatretikov: Representing non-Western countries and non-Western points of view, but even within Western nations, more women, more people of color. My organization Wikimedia DC is trying to tackle some of these challenges but I want to hear your thoughts. [00:12:30] Jasper_Deng -- what I have learned so far is what our data shows around the contributor join year [00:12:42] AnnaKoval: I'll try, thanks for the info. :) [00:13:39] lilatretikov: How independent do you think wikimedia projects should be from the foundation in terms of technical things, software deployments, etc ? Or even just in general [00:13:42] (she's typing more to you, Jasper) [00:14:24] contributors that joined earlier stay longer (and newer ones leave faster) -- and if that is indeed the case -- we clearly have an issue we need to understand better [00:14:37] @karma: :) and <3 [00:15:05] harej: working on yours now : ) [00:15:21] harej -- gotit -- yes we have more data on this... in fact we know that fewer women even show intent [00:15:27] What about the stereotype of the public that Wikipedia editors tend to be nerds? It might not be the general public's but that's the impression I've got from my peers outside of Wikimedia [00:15:47] educational programs are actually good for targeting those things specifically and have shown some results [00:16:12] Heh, not sure how much time we have, but: What about the technical contributor pipeline? Do you have any ideas about how to improve on-ramping and retention of our volunteer programmers? [00:16:28] (I hope philippe is keeping up!) [00:16:31] Is the floor open for anyone's questions to Ms. Tretikov, or is one supposed to get in a queue? [00:16:40] Im on it, marktraceur [00:16:42] :) [00:16:46] Jasper_Deng: what would be interesting is to see that data side by side with the sister sites, not just WPs [00:16:48] +1 to marktraceur's question [00:16:49] Cloakedcitizen: shout it out :) [00:16:50] Cloakedcitizen: We're just shouting things out; philippe is being the air traffic controller [00:16:55] Jimbo claimed yesterday to have been "harassed" by an incredibly prolific Wikipedia content creator "Kumioko" meaning only that Kumioko had evaded his inexplicable ban to contact Jimbo. Should Jimbo so casually position himself as victim of "harassment?" [00:17:09] *wince* [00:17:20] bawolff -- if you are asking about operations, i think it would be hard for anyone to run at the scale of what we do today [00:17:27] Seth_Finkelstein, okay, I lol'd at your wince :) [00:17:37] lilatretikov: More thinking in terms of new feature deployments [00:17:42] in terms of new experiements, i think it is critical that they are coming from everywhere [00:17:48] Hi Seth! :) [00:17:50] Cloakedcitizen: local matters to enwiki and jimbo, nothing really to do with the foundation or our ED :) [00:18:15] lilatretikov: Or more generally how disputes are resolved when devs and other projects "disagree" [00:18:26] and Cloakedcitizen: the person that you speak about implored to be locked, and vandalised to get it to happen [00:18:27] QueenOfFrance, I believe I asked Ms. Tretikov on an open floor. Not you. [00:18:39] Cloakedcitizen: no need to be rude about it, though. [00:18:46] Cloakedcitizen: what QueenOfFrance said :) That's not a "lila" question, it's specific to an enwiki dispute [00:18:51] Cloakedcitizen, rude. [00:19:03] Andreas_ - I'll tell you guys my philosophy of questioning later 1/2 :-) [00:19:04] Let her answer. [00:19:25] lilatretikov, So I think what bawolff is talking about is - basically we often get situations where MediaWiki devs make some change to the software, and WMF sysadmins come along and deploy it to wikis on schedule [00:19:25] Jasper_Deng -- are you asking if the stereotype is true or how we should be dealing with it? [00:19:33] the latter [00:19:56] * Jasper_Deng sees the connection to the learning curve required to edit [00:20:04] Jasper_Deng i am a proud nerd :) [00:20:10] Whoo! [00:20:10] * marktraceur notes that based on research into the gender gap in CS, the "nerd" image may contribute to our own gender gap... [00:20:12] But often local wiki communities disagree with the changes. I've even seen some particularly nasty people on enwiki threads who expect the devs to defer to enwiki's community for whether each change should be made [00:20:21] (Math people, sigh. Math was fine, til it started to include letters) [00:20:35] i think we need to understand if that is an issue if that keeps people out. i don't have an answer yet. [00:20:55] Somewhat related to Krenair's comment, what do you feel is the best way to approach balancing the introduction of new features required for editor retention with avoiding disruption of the experiences of the projects' highly active participants? Many projects have been introduced lately that generated a lot of controversy, and some still are. [00:21:12] nerdiness is often (not always) associated with intellectuals. And wikipedia is an intellectual endeavour [00:21:35] Krenair -- do you think that process is broken then? [00:21:39] Right, and there's also official WMF changes to the software (e.g. new big features) and whether the Wikimedia communit(y|ies) should have more control over that [00:21:43] bawolff: are you claiming to be a nerd or an intellectual? :-P [00:21:45] lilatretikov, no, but some people do [00:21:49] Illustrative: "I edit Wikipedia" --Weird Al, "White and Nerdy" (cc mindspillage.) [00:22:00] Aw. [00:22:01] "nerdiness" and "Geekiness" are often perceived as boys' clubs (by women) and treated as them (by men) [00:22:01] bawolff: there's something more specific here - "Unlocking the Clubhouse" is a good resource on this [00:22:02] I have another one, Ms. Tretikov: Wikipedia has great influence representing the definitions of its articles, because of its prominence in web-searches. What do you think about the ide of allowing those who are the human subjects of its articles (in the vernacular "BLPs") to opt out of articles and define themselves? [00:22:03] mindspillage did not approve. :-( [00:22:04] (As a MediaWiki volunteer and WMF VE dev I'm totally bias though) [00:22:10] marktraceur: but he was vandalizing an article [00:22:30] Lila, could you please respond Andreas's question? Thank you. [00:22:33] I think we're going to start the process of wrapping things up, given that we're within the ten minute mark now... [00:22:46] Emufarmers: She does a great rendition of that song. [00:22:55] Krenair: Or the recent dispute with flow on meta is an interesting case [00:22:57] But then it's a great song. [00:23:06] lfaraone -- i think there needs to be a robust process by which concepts are vetted as they are being created and developed. i dont' think we are at the point where that process is in place yet [00:23:19] Guest38632, I didn't see a question from Andreas? [00:23:26] sumanah: I imagine the situation is rather complicated. Not to mention on how the meanings of those words probably differ in different places [00:23:30] it is hard to keep up with you guys... stuff scrolling off, sorry! [00:23:39] lilatretikov: are you going to Wikimania, and what are your plans for there? [00:23:50] if you are going of course [00:24:00] It is here: "[16:57] Improvement potentials: 1. WMF is not doing enough to measure content quality. 2. Volunteers have asked for help with child protection; nothing has been done." [00:24:13] Those were responses to Lila's question, actually I think :) [00:24:22] Ms ED-to-be, do you have any thoughts about improving the relationship of the WMF with its critics? Wikipediocracy can be harsh at time, but many important issues have been raised there, for example. [00:24:38] marktraceur -- i have not dug into that yet, you want to tell me more about that in our 1-1? [00:25:03] lilatretikov: That sounds like a good plan - I imagine it will be on the minds of most of the ECT as well :) [00:25:11] (Engineering Community Team) [00:25:27] Seth_Finkelstein: Well, Wil seems to agree with you about that [00:25:42] OK, I think Lila is going to do one more answer here, and then we're going to need to be off to keep her on schedule... [00:26:27] ^ Wikimania ^ [00:26:29] WMF employee Phillipe Beaudette shreds or otherwise destroys the "identifications" of those community officials WMF accords access to personally-identifying information of editors. Do you approve? [00:26:47] really? [00:26:49] Cloakedcitizen: we're implementing a new policy [00:26:57] so I'd think sDrewth's question is more important [00:27:03] Cloakedcitizen, please see the updated access to private information policy, where nobody identifies [00:27:19] I heard that he ate it sprinkled on his toast like 100s and 1000s [00:27:24] Seth_Finkelstein RE: critique -- I embrace it -- when productive it helps me improve my thinking [00:27:26] Risker, I believe I addressed that to Ms. Tretikov. [00:27:28] lol sDrewth [00:27:29] PiRSquared: Indeed. But Wil has also made it clear he's not his partner. [00:27:37] Cloakedcitizen: that's enough, now. You've made your point. [00:27:38] om nom nom [00:28:17] Ms. Tretikov, you haven't answered any of my questions: would you read my article ? [00:28:37] PiRSquared Wil is his own person, he does not represent me [00:28:43] PiRSquared: By which I don't mean to imply anything, but it's why the question is very relevant to the new Executive Director [00:29:02] lilatretikov: I didn't mean to imply that he did, sorry [00:29:06] sDrewth -- I will be at Wikimania. Can't wait!!! [00:29:11] Cloakedcitizen: If that was meant as satire, it would kind of be funny [00:29:15] nice [00:29:39] I'm on a two-minute timer here. If one of the ban-hammerers doesn't kick me, I haven't asked critical enough questions. [00:29:46] Thanks everyone -- this has been great. See you in a few weeks!!! [00:29:52] Thanks, everyone :-) [00:29:55] lilatretikov: To be fair, I think PiRSquared was noting that there's some social credibility. [00:30:08] lilatretikov: thank you for the Q&A session and best of luck in the job. [00:30:12] +lilatretikov: We can guarantee the weather in London will be good (probably) [00:30:12] Thanks! [00:30:15] Cheers, and best to all. [00:30:38] RichardNevellWMU: will there be a cricket match? [00:30:38] Curses, have a nice day, Ms. Tretikov and all. [00:30:40] lilatretikov: Thanks for answering our questions [00:30:40] Thanks for doing this lilatretikov :) [00:30:41] * marktraceur gives lilatretikov a "Not Feeding the Trolls" barnstar [00:31:00] hehe marktraceur [00:31:01] :) [00:31:08] that was very nice [00:31:16] Could've been worse. [00:31:18] She still has some ropes to learn [00:31:23] but I think she'll do fine [00:31:29] Honestly, it's amazing if she still wants to be ED after this :P [00:31:34] I must say, it was a change of pace from the VisualEditor office hours of the past nine months :) [00:31:34] lol [00:31:41] Andreas_ - I don't believe in the "Killer Question". I point people to this http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/257/transcript [00:31:42] sDrewth: there's been talk of one. Having followed England's recent exploits, part of me hopes it goes no further, but if folks want to raise a team I'm sure they'll find someone to play against ;-) [00:31:53] love them when they want openness to align with their cloaked behaviour [00:32:12] Keegan: Are you saying I feed the trolls? [00:32:35] RichardNevellWMU: as long as we have beer afterwards [00:32:35] Keegan: you mean in that people talked for once? Or have VE hours gotten more lively? [00:32:35] James_F: No, you're just boring now. Old hat. [00:32:35] James_F: you'd eat the trolls if they were baked or made of chocolate [00:32:35] It would be mandatory. Regardless of the result. [00:32:44] And sliced oranges at halftime. [00:32:45] * philippe likes chocolate trolls. [00:32:47] Finnegan: they have not gotten more lively [00:32:59] Keegan: Yup, boring, that's me. [00:33:10] sDrewth: I generally don't eat humans. [00:33:26] James_F: Too much cool software, not enough emotional breakdowns [00:33:30] sDrewth: I found that ironic, myself. [00:33:34] Stop being s'damn productive [00:33:45] marktraceur: exactly. He's never rage quit. Lame. [00:33:58] GOD [00:33:59] James_F: want me to show up to your next VE hours and tell you how horrible you are? [00:34:03] marktraceur: Sorry! Will go break things now. [00:34:04] -!- James_F has quit [00:34:32] Finnegan: That'd be great! I'm always looking for people to have difficult questions. It makes them more interesting. [00:34:35] heatherw: all mouth, alll look at me [00:34:39] Finnegan: He's English. That helps him. [00:34:56] * James_F laughs. [00:35:09] Has anyone actually ever rage-quat an office hours? [00:35:10] James_F: unfortunately, since I haven't used VE in months, it'll have to literally be, "You're horrible. Also horrible, and a bit horrible. Also you suck." rather than anything interesting or useful [00:35:24] Finnegan: Plus ça change, right? [00:35:28] hrh [00:35:30] *heh [00:36:19] see, You made me misspell my meaningless laugh, you're horrible [00:37:44] * James_F nods. [00:37:46] That's me. [00:38:19] Finnegan: and that is one of his good points [00:38:53] Andreas_: One is practically never going to get a "Sir, have you NO SHAME?!" moment - and that goes double for *IRC* (any no chance even to posture for video :-)). [02:14:02] I'm hosting the current hangout. Please send audio/video questions/issues to me. Thanks! [02:15:52] Which you can find here, btw: https://plus.google.com/b/103470172168784626509/103470172168784626509/posts [02:17:17] Direct youtube link is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PqJuZ1_B6w [02:17:44] cndiv: You may want to change the topic [02:19:22] * bd808 found out he can set the topic here [02:20:10] bd808: looks like someone just did [02:56:56] * bd808 claps for Aaron [02:57:07] * bd808 waves to Ori