[17:47:35] I assume a Hangout link/invitation for the Metrics meeting will be sent out at some point? [17:50:43] andre_, it should be placed here soon, I imagine. Generally it is. :) [17:50:56] \o/ :) [17:56:19] andre__: it's usually a youtube link, not a hangout, since the hangout is limited to 8 people (according to the wiki) [17:56:31] so only presenters generally are in the hangout, the rest of us use the public youtube stream. [17:56:47] there's a youtube url posted on the wiki page, but it's not up yet [17:57:32] cscott, yeah, but I cannot present via youtube ;) [17:58:19] Hello, everyone [17:58:19] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFUcwy57FiE [17:58:35] andre__: Sending via /query [17:58:46] thx [18:00:15] Argh, apparently the link might change. [18:00:25] Or not. [18:00:27] whee [18:01:06] Yay for streaming technology. [18:01:10] * marktraceur waves [18:01:42] * brion is please standing by [18:01:52] * sumanah hits Reload [18:01:57] AV comments on Metrics? Ping me here please. [18:02:02] We haven't started yet [18:02:06] and I appreciate "all is well" comments too [18:02:12] Good morning people! :) [18:02:29] cndiv: I can hear everything perfectly! It's like I'm *right there in the room* [18:02:31] morning MissGayle [18:02:33] I have hit Reload and still get "please stand by; starting soon" [18:02:46] marktraceur: the resolution is *amazing* [18:02:48] I think I just saw cndiv's unamused face. [18:02:53] haha [18:02:55] * James_F grins. [18:02:55] sumanah, same [18:03:00] I'm still at 'starting soon' [18:03:04] I don't think it's started yet [18:03:04] The quality of the video will be lower today, right? [18:03:10] (We've not started yet.) [18:03:12] James_F: slightly, sadly. [18:03:19] new camera? [18:03:20] * James_F clarifies. :-) [18:03:23] brion: Old camera. [18:03:26] heh [18:03:27] James_F: couldn't get the camcorder to work, even with 45 mins of troubleshooting. [18:03:29] brion: New camera not working. [18:03:33] aww [18:03:34] * James_F blames technology. [18:03:38] Could get it into the computer, but not into Google [18:03:46] usually it's a struggle, but today I lost [18:03:58] * sumanah comfortingly pats Chip on the shoulder. [18:04:01] o/ [18:04:05] cndiv: I swear that Google should sell kits guaranteed to Just Work™. [18:04:14] James_F, they do, right? [18:04:21] (Other streaming services are available.) [18:04:36] Hi JeanFred. I think you might be interested in my intern's project https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Evaluating_and_Improving_MediaWiki_web_API_client_libraries - we can talk about it outside this channel [18:04:43] Based on what I read, I gather it is not only for me that the livestream is not working ? [18:04:48] James_F: actually that's a thing I'm looking into this afternoon [18:04:50] James_F: (But not as good as) :p [18:04:51] superm401: The Chromebox kits? [18:04:52] experimenting with livestream [18:05:00] JeanFred: right. Hasn't started yet [18:05:02] JeanFred: The live stream isn't live yet. [18:05:03] James_F, yeah, I think that's what it's called. [18:05:07] JeanFred: See the /topic [18:05:26] Starting very soon. [18:05:35] Thanks sumanah and James_F :) (never think of looking at the topic :p) [18:05:41] startin up [18:05:49] we should put trailers for the presentations while we wait :) [18:05:58] sumanah: I’ll be glad to have a look but not tonight :) [18:06:00] "coming attractions" [18:06:03] First we're doing HR/hires as always. [18:06:07] “In a world where editor statistics bounce up and down…” [18:06:28] "and hundreds of servers are controlled by ONE MAN" [18:06:28] ok, it has begun! [18:06:30] i have video! [18:06:44] welcome lila [18:06:45] Good to hear. Any video/audio issues, please shout. [18:06:45] reloaded and got video [18:07:06] Can we see the people and not the sign? [18:07:13] i love that graffiti picture [18:07:20] yeah, where is that? [18:07:25] Or maybe that's not possible with the fixed camera? [18:07:34] jamesofur: commons, i hope. ;) [18:07:34] Our engineering interns: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/FOSS_Outreach_Program_for_Women/Round_8 and https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Summer_of_Code_2014 started May 19 [18:07:40] marcoil: Not easily possible, I don't think, sorry. [18:07:50] Maggie_Dennis: it might be nice to have them come up though don't know if it would take longer. The camera moving though I think isn't workable [18:07:59] av comments? [18:08:02] cscott: I mean the graffiti itself :) [18:08:06] cndiv: Nothing so far. [18:08:10] jamesofur: One moment. [18:08:11] I mean, it's good? [18:08:19] Welcome, all! [18:08:23] cndiv: looks good [18:08:28] cndiv: camera now, good quality but slow focusing [18:08:49] marcoil: Yeah, sadly. [18:09:02] not a huge problem, really [18:09:58] you == staff ? [18:10:06] I think so in this context. [18:10:19] Easy to answer when folks have the slides ahead ;) [18:10:29] we can see the answer on gdocs :) [18:10:31] "People who can be Wikipedia editors but don't know it yet" :) [18:10:49] I like that answer, superm401 :) [18:11:00] JeanFred: don't look ahead! [18:11:13] I like Lila's new strategy, can we fire people now? :p [18:11:28] rfarrand: Have to. I’m livetweeting the thing :p [18:11:33] any how many "potential editors"? [18:11:45] No, we can’t fire people now. :) [18:11:49] JohnLewis: you know lilatretikov is in the channel right now... (and thsu can see this) [18:11:51] superm401: +1 [18:12:10] hmm, contrast on the slides... hard to see in the Hangout [18:12:16] Jasper_Deng: I do know [18:12:25] lila doesn't actually seem to be in the channel [18:12:30] she was [18:12:51] Well whether she is here or not, MissGayle: Okay :( [18:13:18] focus on the users \o/ [18:13:26] * brion breaks out the tron quotes [18:13:32] lila was online here for 2 minutes ending at 1:48:15 PM. [18:13:45] tron! [18:13:50] clearly we need to get her using an irc bouncer ;) [18:14:12] cscott: Wasn't someone working on a bouncer for WMF staff on labs? [18:15:25] I've had massive issues with bouncers :-/ freenode keeps going nuts and I get banned from channels when I keep going offline [18:15:33] I just stopped using them [18:15:40] bip ftw [18:16:01] jamesofur: Actually, I just banned you because of your poor connection :p [18:16:14] JohnLewis: which was the bouncer's connection :P [18:16:33] and often appeared, when I went into logs, to be because freenode was going nuts [18:16:55] (though not always so obvious) [18:16:58] jamesofur: I guess. [18:16:59] on topic: i'd like to mention that "measure" isn't really the objective step that it seems to be. who decides what to measure and how to interpret the results? [18:17:13] Yeah, often FreeNode harasses bouncers with too many channels open on a connection [18:17:18] by repeatedly killing it [18:17:25] JohnLewis: No shared bouncer can go on labs due to terms of service there, but OIT has been asked to look into a shared bouncer for WMF staff. [18:17:29] sometimes measurement is just a cloak to legitimatize pre-existing ideas. [18:17:52] And then people blame *you* when it rejoins. *sigh* [18:17:55] cscott: Looks like there won't be Q&A time for this slot, sorry. :-( [18:18:01] Krenair: Ah, interesting. [18:18:05] bd808: It's just something I saw somewhere. And nice to the OIT part [18:18:14] she points at me :) [18:18:24] Has someone made the Tron jokes already or not ? :) [18:18:38] James_F: i think the problems with measurement have been mentioned before, i don't think i'm contributing an original idea here. [18:18:43] cscott: OK. [18:19:06] I think it's actually based on the rate of messages going to it or something.. anyway I just parted channels and made my bouncer stop changing my nick when I go offline [18:19:10] James_F: and i trust you're holding up your end of the "how can we measure editors who don't exist yet" debate. ;) [18:19:14] interesting distinction between comscore and internal numbers [18:19:23] cscott: BILLIONS! ;-) [18:19:35] well, 500,000,000 - 70,000 at least ;) [18:20:10] Eh. There's a lot of churn in the 70k+; there are probably getting onto a few hundred thousand people who have edited and no longer do. [18:20:11] hmm, do I need to know what "comScore" stands for? [18:20:13] the subtle bias of measurement is that it makes it easy to justify things that are easy to measure. [18:20:24] andre__: It's a company that reports data about the Web. [18:20:29] I assumed so, thanks [18:20:44] agh i lost video [18:20:47] it’s back [18:20:50] just went into buffering [18:20:52] andre__: http://www.comscore.com/ [18:20:54] back ;) [18:20:56] ah [18:21:05] stream is beautiful here [18:21:25] looking forward to getting broadband via google's LEO satellite constellation though. [18:22:54] Wiki Looks Earth seems really cool. [18:23:40] Now up: Mobile VE from Juliusz. [18:24:10] woo campaign views [18:26:04] i missed it, what is happening june 17? [18:26:14] VE on mobile [18:26:22] :) [18:26:41] victorgrigas: Yay, right? :-) [18:27:03] Ignorant question: am I still looking at Mediawiki? [18:27:05] James_F: he has a mouse, that is a lie :) [18:27:05] That makes me happy :) [18:27:08] switcher++ [18:27:08] wow [18:27:19] cndiv: yep! [18:27:25] it’s with the mobile style [18:27:32] brion: What's this written in? [18:27:35] matanya: It's being demo'ed on a desktop device, yes; there's no real way for us to demo an iPad nicely. [18:27:46] cndiv: well the VE stuff is mostly client-side javascript [18:27:57] brion: and the reading interface? [18:28:26] also JS? [18:28:30] James_F: fun fact: when iOS 8 and OS X 10.10 drop, we’ll be able to hook an iPhone or iPad up as a “camera” to screencast — it should work to hook it up to the hangout directly [18:28:35] but right now it’s a huge pain so we use chrome ;) [18:28:38] cndiv, PHP, HTML, JavaScript, CSS, depends which part you mean. [18:28:49] cndiv: JS for the front-end bits but lots of PHP of course :) [18:28:51] And VisualEditor uses Parsoid (written in nodejs) as a backend. [18:28:52] brion: Ooh, nice new feature. Looking forward to those demos! [18:28:52] superm401: Thanks [18:28:59] And LESS rather than CSS a bunch. [18:28:59] that's really awesome. [18:29:06] Just to be more confusing. [18:29:30] if you're using chrome, maybe chromecast would help [18:29:44] Congrats to the mobile and VE team. [18:29:49] marcoil: Integrating an inwards and outwards video stream might be hard. [18:29:54] Questions? [18:29:57] Interface looks great, and I think it's a good selection of controls to include on tablet. [18:30:08] James_F: will there be some nowiki thingy in the diff ? [18:30:20] matanya: What do you mean "nowiki thingy"? [18:30:21] i wonder if we can squeeze the interface down to phones though [18:30:26] tablets have space, it’s much nicer :D [18:30:31] brion: I'm pretty sure we can. :-) [18:30:35] woo [18:30:37] James_F: nvm, seems like a bug [18:30:39] brion: We'll just have to be ruthless in prioritising. [18:30:40] phablets at least [18:30:51] matanya: I want to hear about those too, but maybe later? :-) [18:30:53] only one button: “revert" [18:31:00] sure [18:31:02] given the way phones are growing, they'll be bigger than tablets soon :) [18:31:21] brion: What about only having a {{cn}} button? :-) [18:31:25] :D [18:31:30] is there going to be a way to take photos and add them easily like how i can when there is no photo in nearby mode? [18:31:47] Barack {{cn}} Obama {{cn}} is {{cn}} the 44th {{cn}} President of the US [1][2][3]. ;-) [18:31:57] victorgrigas: That's planned, but it will take a while. [18:32:06] sorry for the bad video here. the camera loves to focus on the bright screen, thus making the figure in front dark. [18:32:07] victorgrigas: We're working with the Multimedia team to make that possible. [18:32:08] sigh [18:32:13] * cscott claps [18:32:32] Now moving to andre__ doing a remote update about Phabricator. [18:32:36] James_F: Is it possible in the web version? I thought the native app would be needed for that [18:32:54] marcoil, uploading an image? [18:33:07] There is an option some browsers support that integrates into input type file [18:33:09] superm401: taking a picture from the camera directly [18:33:10] marcoil: No, very possible; there are magic hooks that let you invoke the local camera apparently. [18:33:16] ah, great [18:33:28] marcoil: But yes, it's a bit surprising that it's possible. [18:33:37] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Guide/API/Camera [18:34:18] it's been in the web api for years. just not widely used. [18:34:22] that looks way too easy :) [18:34:52] did he just say all of those tools can be replaced with phabricator? [18:34:54] (a better link would be to whatwg, not to MDN) [18:35:02] rt, bugilla, trello, etc? [18:35:06] cndiv: that is the claim, yes. [18:35:06] cndiv: pretty close to all of them yes [18:35:14] probably some glue code necessary still [18:35:15] cndiv: Yes. [18:35:32] ScrumBugs is up fwiw [18:35:35] * cndiv makes note to learn phabricator [18:35:55] cndiv: We might even be able to use it for non-tech issues, possibly. [18:36:10] James_F: it's FOSS, right [18:36:16] yes. and php. [18:36:23] hot [18:36:27] originally written by facebook, like hhvm [18:36:37] You don't need to click "Edit task" for simple common things. [18:36:41] part of the wmf-facebook axis of evil ;) [18:36:50] Like assigning, subscribing, unsubscribing, ccing, prioritizing, basically any single action. [18:37:11] cndiv: We're all-FLOSS. :-) [18:37:29] Except Trello, Mingle, Google Docs, Hangout... [18:37:35] Phabricator will be a big improvement on that front. [18:38:15] superm401: We're all-FLOSS for most teams. :-) [18:38:21] I’m excited to see how we can use it. [18:38:31] thanks andre that was all great I think [18:38:33] it is awsome [18:38:46] o/ [18:38:49] We're using Google Hangout right now, but I take your point. [18:38:52] \o/ [18:38:54] * superm401 raises hand [18:39:13] superm401: we're floss-only for public canonical systems [18:39:15] superm401: post your question and it can be relayed by folks in the room [18:39:16] * halfak raises hand [18:39:32] eg: trello/mingle ain't canonical, bugzilla is [18:39:35] :) [18:39:43] * marktraceur squints at James_F's "most" [18:39:46] cscott, was raising to say I have a labs Phabricator account, per request [18:39:57] superm401, halfak: You're raising your hands about having accounts, right? [18:40:00] yup [18:40:02] James_F, yes [18:40:03] oh [18:40:03] Aha. [18:40:14] marktraceur: Most by lines of code written. :-) [18:40:16] i guess i should raise my hand too [18:40:18] chasemp: phou, survived. Well, thanks for the flowers :) [18:40:33] andre__: +1 for this [18:40:43] thanks [18:40:48] andre__: +1. Also, I see you three times right now :) [18:41:19] andre__: ScrumBugs is up now btw :p [18:41:20] Anyway, being FOSS is an important part of the Phabricator win, and the fact that it's PHP should make the "anyone can push fixes upstream" thing more practical/widespread than e.g. Bugzilla or Gerrit (neither of which use our main stacks) [18:41:26] Woo! [18:41:31] JohnLewis, heh, it wasn't when I tried an hour ago :) [18:42:42] 350K among all projects ? [18:42:45] How do unregistered editors know the perks of having an account? [18:42:47] James_F: do they know why people choose the edit as anon ? [18:43:01] JeanFred: I believe that's all projects yes [18:43:11] victorgrigas: See later in the stream from Steven. [18:43:18] thanks [18:43:20] matanya: We have some data – want me to ask? [18:43:28] yes, please. [18:43:48] 350k IPs is just English [18:43:55] JeanFred, ^ [18:43:56] ahhh [18:43:59] halfak, oh, wow. [18:44:08] halfak: thanks for the precision ! [18:44:08] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Unique_editors.by_agent_type.main_namespace.enwiki.png [18:44:20] we need to adjust how we compare then heh, we're comparing 350k vs active editors (70/80k) which is all projects [18:44:20] JeanFred: it's u livetwitting the meeting ! (I knew it) [18:44:34] halfak, what's the ratio in number of edits btw? [18:44:39] PierreSelim: It is me indeed :p [18:44:47] Main namespace: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Revisions.by_agent_type.main_namespace.enwiki.png [18:44:51] ^ edits [18:44:52] what if they already have an account, just forgot to sign in? [18:44:58] The post-edit is more detailed about benefits. Pre-edit just says, "We recommend you create an account to edit {{SITENAME}}. It's free, easy, and requires no personal information." [18:45:03] halfak, thanks! [18:45:09] i don't read german well, but it seems like that segment is being ignored [18:45:13] cscott, you can get to login from any page, including signup, but definitely could be easier. [18:45:14] cscott, That happens. We excluded them from the experiment and we'll be able to make general statements soon. [18:45:19] halfak: English Wikipedia only right ? [18:45:27] (if I understand your graph correctly ) [18:45:33] cscott, we ran the experiment in en/fr/de/it [18:45:42] Yup. graphs are enwiki only. [18:45:47] JeanFred, ^ [18:45:51] Thanks ! [18:46:00] And here is total edits per category http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/PlotEditsEN.png [18:46:47] halfak: i'm just pointing out that there are "yes register" and "no thanks" buttons, but no obvious "just sign me in, thanks" button. [18:47:12] but again, i can't read the text exactly in german [18:47:19] cscott, I totally agree. This is a major caveat. Pre-edit suggest that you *need* to register. [18:47:30] Oh yeah. That too. [18:47:31] halfak: or sign in [18:47:36] That will probably be in the next version. [18:47:37] Don't know that a big portion of anon editors clicks edit every week, [18:47:46] Also, signup/login should be the same page. [18:48:04] i know when i was in my low-edit period @ wiki, i would usually be logged out and forget to log in until after my edit. [18:48:13] it was just *easier* to edit anon [18:48:27] James_F: how much of those where useful edits ? [18:48:39] halfak: No pressure [18:48:39] +1. cscott. So long as you logged in at some point around that edit, we exclude you from these results. [18:48:49] i.e not reverted [18:48:55] matanya, We'll be looking at that next. [18:49:02] thanks halfak [18:49:10] Have the data. Should still ask that in the meeting @ SF [18:49:13] Ok, won't ask. [18:49:15] halfak: sure. i'm not disputing the results, i'm just saying that i'd like to try to treat logged-out wikipedians better before actually *deploying* the experimental ui for real. ;) [18:49:21] OK, will. [18:49:50] cscott, +1 not my call. Might be work asking StevenW about. ;) [18:50:02] Unless you cleared cookies, then you might get both. [18:50:22] nugging level @ 100% ^ [18:50:35] +1 lila ;) [18:51:12] Don't think it's overly hard to test signup/login and save on desktop, though. [18:51:29] I forget a lot of the time as well, and have a whole bunch of IP edits on mediawiki .. but more recently, have been remembering to login. [18:52:43] For anyone who is interested in following my analysis as I work on it, see https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Anonymous_editor_acquisition/Signup_CTA_experiment [18:52:58] Specifically my public "Work log" on the talk page. [18:54:44] UploadWizard is a candidate for a future guided tour we could write. [18:54:58] superm401: That'd be neat. [18:55:31] It would be [18:55:37] oh, progress! [18:55:51] superm401: Maybe we should do that before murdering Puzzly (getting rid of the "tutorial" step) [18:56:06] marktraceur: Or after. [18:56:29] marktraceur, yep, we have a bug for it already. Ping me to remind me. Our new GuidedTour API should make it easier. [18:56:33] puzzlyyyyyyy [18:56:34] Priority 1 for the multimedia team: dessinicide [18:57:06] Eloquence_mm: He's led a full life, he knew the risks [18:57:22] James_F, do you think you could just copy an image and paste it into VisualEditor through magic of rich copy/paste? [18:57:24] Eloquence_mm: Death of Puzzly! [18:57:35] That would be awesome (I mean copy a just-uploaded image, or an existing Commons one, etc.) [18:57:37] superm401: Sadly not without a new HTML5 change. [18:57:40] Not from web in general. [18:57:51] superm401: Google Docs does it using a native code browser plug-in. [18:57:53] James_F: i think there is already basic copy-paste in HTML5 [18:58:04] video improvment James_F ? [18:58:05] superm401: We looked at it but it's not workable. [18:58:12] superm401: Drag-and-drop however… [18:58:28] cut-n-paste doesn’t preserve images well yet no [18:58:33] Oh, well. I was hoping there might be a trick to do it on our own sites, since we could augment it with data attributes, etc. [18:58:36] drag-n-drop from *a file manager* can trigger an upload [18:58:43] hmm [18:58:46] brion, yeah, that's how Phabricator works. Very smooth. [18:58:49] drag-and-drop within the site is conceivable perhaps [18:59:05] James_F: does it/will it extract info from exif/iptc? [18:59:15] brion: Yeah. [18:59:29] marcoil: Drag-and-drop takes the full file, so yes, all EXIF etc. [18:59:32] http://caniuse.com/#feat=clipboard [18:59:44] James_F: cool :) [18:59:46] Awwwwww [18:59:47] cut-n-paste within the site might work too, since it’ll have references to the image instead of embedded…… maybe :D [19:00:05] brion: We already do that a bit. [19:00:08] brion: More planned! [19:00:12] sweeeeeet [19:00:14] YES PLEASE [19:00:21] Lightroom +1 [19:00:23] There is one for digikam already :p [19:00:35] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:KIPI_uploader [19:00:39] darktable has lua extensions now, one for commons would be great [19:00:59] marcoil: I was looking into doing on e for darktable :) [19:01:03] marcoil: I would do that before Lightroom or whatever [19:01:08] Making it a proejct for GSOC [19:01:10] JeanFred: We should talk [19:01:27] * guillom is sad that people are talking about killing the tutorial and murdering Puzzly. [19:01:29] JeanFred: I'm willing to help (if I ever have some free time) [19:01:35] well i’ll be happy to work on uploading extensions for iOS apps, it’s gonna be possible with iOS 8 :D [19:01:44] do we know how many people watch metrics on youtube? [19:01:57] meganhernandez: A few dozen IIRC. [19:02:06] meganhernandez: it says '35 watching now' [19:02:22] i watch em on youtube cause i’d rather work for an hour at my home office than sit in the room upstairs ;) [19:02:23] meganhernandez: Oh, live or later? [19:02:37] meganhernandez: Later it's ~ a few hundred apparently. [19:02:42] cute baby :) [19:02:45] \o/ [19:04:54] marcoil: I didn't realize it showed that to the end user. Is that new? [19:05:16] cndiv: I remember it from other metrics, so not very new I suppose [19:05:29] at least a year old [19:06:16] (Sorry we're so rushed and that there's no time for questions. :-() [19:07:11] marktraceur: any time :) [19:07:31] marktraceur: i was trying to launch that debate on the multimedia ML :p [19:07:58] Can I just say - I've seen a *lot* of Metrics Meetings, and this is for sure one of the most inspiring, IMO. I love seeing all these projects start to come together into a cohesive future. [19:08:02] JeanFred: About plugins? Past-tense? You should try again [19:08:29] marktraceur: I will then :p [19:08:59] Yayyyy [19:09:09] This whole free time thing is overrated anyway [19:09:20] marktraceur: what's that? [19:09:31] Glad to see the efforts to boost Wikipedia use in China. [19:10:30] i keep meaning to try to integrate teahouse w/ collaborative real-time editing [19:12:08] bye! [19:12:12] OK, that's us done. [19:12:23] Thanks everyone. [19:12:29] Alright, we're clear. Thanks all. [19:12:37] Bah. [19:12:39] congrats to all the presenters! [19:12:41] Already ? My livestream must be laggin o_O [19:12:55] Siko is still speaking for me :p [19:13:17] its' finished now, bye! [19:14:09] is that it? no fundraising or LCA?