[17:52:14] anyone have the youtube link? [17:53:35] i got it [17:57:37] victorgrigas: do you have the youtube link? [17:57:51] Yes [17:57:58] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JbZ1uWoKEg&feature=youtu.be [17:58:43] good morning folks [17:58:52] Hi ho jamesofur [17:59:00] victorgrigas: ty [17:59:17] Welcome to the backchannel trolling parlour for the metrics meeting. :D [17:59:38] I will be your lovely question asking IRC host today, which may end up being livelier just given that there seems to be far less actually in the office [17:59:47] Damn Wikimania Travel Period [18:00:30] * YuviPanda stands by [18:01:35] jamesofur: Yeah, you had to fill in for James_F|Away even. Times are hard. [18:02:03] to be fair that's relatively common given his presentations or something else :) but yeah, I passed by him on the way to the airport [18:02:05] Mmmm...Eloquence. [18:02:41] jamesofur: is it just me or are there no streams yet? [18:02:53] topic [18:02:53] err [18:02:53] we are not live yet, you are correct [18:02:59] the topic is set... [18:03:05] Please note: Channel is logged and publicly posted (DO NOT REMOVE THIS NOTE). | https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours | WMF Metrics Meeting - Youtube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JbZ1uWoKEg [18:03:26] * jamesofur set again [18:04:40] starting up right now [18:04:56] with Gayle reading off new hires and converstions [18:05:28] Yay Keegan|Away and quiddity [18:05:29] lots of conversions this month [18:05:36] got the stream,seems to be lagged a minute or so [18:05:45] yeah, it generally does [18:05:51] any av comments, including 'sounds good!' please ping me [18:06:29] yay Arlo! [18:06:46] thanks as usual cndiv :-) [18:07:02] chrismcmahon: how's the feed? [18:07:15] congrats Brion! [18:07:51] cndiv: sounds just fine here [18:07:53] cndiv: fine for me [18:13:03] Did he just call her Lila? Do we need money for the jar? [18:17:54] we can't hear what people were just saying [18:18:07] greg-g: I know, buncha noobs 'round here [18:18:23] howief had a question but couldn't get a mic that was working. [18:19:59] greg-g: no question ended up being asked [18:20:39] jamesofur: of course, I didn't hear anything on the feed (iow: If it didn't happen on the feed, it didn't happen) ;) [18:20:48] lol [18:21:14] well, especially true when the presenter (and question answerer) is on the feed as well [18:21:43] hi all [18:21:52] heard a meeting going on here.. so came to see it [18:22:36] * jamesofur waves to Saqib [18:22:42] Saqib: Yay! Welcome. [18:22:55] Is the meeting still going? marktraceur hasn't said anything sassy in several minutes [18:22:56] thanks :) [18:23:16] victorgrigas: ah you're here too :) [18:23:21] Emufarmers: A new record for me [18:23:33] I'm busy being sassy on Mingle. [18:24:12] agh. we need to turn on anon editing for the mobile site [18:24:40] i think m guss is traveling to UK . would Tilman Bayer will be here? [18:24:43] +1! [18:24:53] ^ to anon editing on mobile [18:24:55] Hm, I swear there was chat about that at the architecture summit. [18:25:27] questions? Dario just finished [18:25:39] can you edit anonymously on the mobile site? [18:25:41] First question from Howie [18:25:46] Bence: will ask [18:25:55] Bence: you can't edit anonymously on the mobile site [18:26:25] bence: are you the one from Affcom ? :O [18:26:26] YuviPanda: thanks [18:26:26] (will ask in person still, so others here) [18:26:45] Erik is showing :) [18:27:23] Drink, he said Global South! [18:27:33] YuviPanda: haha [18:27:44] YuviPanda: You're going to get real drunk real fast that way [18:27:52] marktraceur: suits me fine :) [18:28:33] Moving on to Dan Garry re Mobile Apps [18:28:40] YuviPanda: "What we learned: a grantmaking year in review" coming up. Have refills ready. [18:30:00] Editing wants to be free. [18:30:30] what was the reasoning for not allowing anon edits on mobile site but allowing it in apps? (I may have missed something) [18:30:46] there's a barrier to entry, in that the user went out of her way to download the app [18:30:49] greg-g: I was planning to ask the same question ;) will make sure it gets asked [18:30:55] jamesofur: thanks [18:31:05] why does it say mumbo jumbo in the creds of the app? [18:31:10] credits [18:31:15] haha, really? [18:31:16] Mic seems rather hot? [18:31:17] victorgrigas: haha :) [18:31:27] victorgrigas: I think you've to hit brion, they forgot to fix it [18:31:27] If you to Newfoundland at the right time, you can see puffins and icebergs. [18:31:30] yes, mic is a bit hot [18:31:34] cndiv: ^ see comment on mic [18:31:37] In my work, I've found no evidence that trolls will not circumvent barriers, but plenty of evidence that good editors will not circumvent barriers. [18:31:46] halfak++ [18:31:56] * jamesofur agrees with halfak [18:31:56] jamesofur: change made, comments please! [18:31:57] * YuviPanda agrees with halfak [18:32:11] Julia_W: greg-g (wait 30-40 seconds) mic better? [18:32:18] Julia_W: any better? give it a second to reflect on the feed. [18:32:28] much better!! [18:32:31] Ta! [18:32:33] ... waits [18:32:34] yep [18:33:18] It would be interesting to compare "new signups" to "new anons". [18:33:19] halfak, agreed. it would be cool if there's a way to get anon editing into mobile. i think if non-vandalism is evidence based on the mobile web, it would be huge. i do sort of wonder about high grade machine learning for weeding out stuff and throttling and whatnot on the desktop. lots of that is already covered with AbuseFilter and patrolling, of course. [18:33:25] I doubt it really has much to do with whether they're anons. [18:33:34] halfak: s/mobile/mobile web/ [18:33:43] It's probably just that logged in users were probably signed up before they tried the app [18:34:02] +1 dr0ptp4kt. We can always run small scale experiments so that we can find out without causing a disruption. [18:34:54] dr0ptp4kt, doesn't ClueBot do some of that (clever algorithms, I think maybe even machine learning)? [18:35:07] Also, ClueBot NG + Huggle catches nearly 100% of vandalism in 30 minutes. [18:35:19] halfak, it may be that Maryana has this on her list already, although i can't recall if it's part of the upcoming qurater/year in particular. it's work, for sure, to get it right, although a/b testing can help. [18:35:20] 50% of vandalism is caught in 2 minutes [18:35:24] yeah, ClueBot seems pretty good [18:35:53] do you guys know about the false positive and false negative rates/ [18:35:54] ? [18:36:00] i don't know much about that. [18:36:08] Fun story about what happens when we don't have cluebot: http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~halfak/publications/When_the_Levee_Breaks/geiger13levee-preprint.pdf [18:36:40] halfak: "GO TO THE SOURCE!" [18:37:13] dr0ptp4kt: halfak anon editing isn't on the table for this year, AFAIR [18:38:15] Bummer. I think we're losing a lot of productivity there. [18:38:22] vandalism is good and relatively harmless [18:38:31] ^ wat [18:38:33] * DarTar ducks [18:38:43] :) [18:38:48] stop trolling DarTar [18:39:09] it’s my typical introduction of Wikipedia to 9yos, “let’s blank this article and see what happens” [18:39:25] ClueBot NG happens [18:39:31] trolling doesn't necessarily mean not true ;) [18:39:43] The question is whether mobile web would cause some onslaught of vandalism that existing processes (ClueBot, AbuseFilter, Huggle, patrolling) couldn't easily deal with. [18:39:48] DarTar, i like your style. it's like at family christmas when you go around telling the nieces and nephews to start screaming as loud as they can [18:39:49] I doubt it, I think existing processes would work. [18:40:06] * YuviPanda agrees with superm401 [18:40:30] dr0ptp4kt: believe me 9yos freak out at the idea of vandalizing Wikipedia [18:40:59] especially since, if necessary, automated processes could tweak themselves based on the mobile tag [18:41:36] We see a comparable drop in productivity when requesting that anons register. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Asking_anonymous_editors_to_register [18:41:46] congrats, mobile: the iOS app is stellar [18:42:18] We're exploring new ways to "nudge" people to register without causing a productivity hit. [18:44:55] victorgrigas: MUMBO JUMBO for lulz ;-) [18:45:50] victorgrigas: It's intentional! :) [18:46:00] woah [18:46:03] tbh...its still too much work to login/stay logged in/etc. I edit the pedia's occasionaly but almost always as an anon [18:46:32] if you had a `login with google` or `login with github` or `login with facebook` button i would be much more likely to login than if i have to type :P [18:46:40] ebernhardson: but privacy! [18:46:47] ebernhardson: this is one reason why the app is pretty cool, you don't have to deal with that. [18:46:57] ebernhardson: Also, we might want to get our own SUL stuff sorted first. :-p [18:46:58] cite from URL is really neat, James_F|Away is there a page I can point people to to learn about it? [18:47:00] ebernhardson, password manager? [18:47:00] Pretty! [18:47:03] ebernhardson: this will be less of a pain if you help us merge https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/141248/ ;) [18:47:05] * jamesofur nods, even I end up just not bothering logging in for normal volunteer edits [18:47:07] Agreed, Citoid is really cool. [18:47:11] Then you won't get logged out every session/30 days. [18:47:27] found it, https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Citoid [18:47:52] this demo is so awesome [18:48:15] StevenW, that's pretty neat [18:48:28] and we're using Zotero!!!!! [18:48:52] dr0ptp4kt: yeah we need to do it, now that the new privacy policy lets us [18:49:06] StevenW: wee [18:49:07] superm401: i do have lastpass installed, which does make logging in easier, but its still not as seamless as i would like. [18:49:43] sumanah: +1 [18:49:48] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Mvolz/OPW_proposal_round_8 DarTar [18:49:57] ebernhardson, you can get password managers that will fill in username and password when you go to login page. Then, it's the same number of clicks as Login With Whatever. [18:50:26] sumanah: ditto, really excited we’re using Zotero [18:50:28] We need to test the "sign up or log in in place" flow too. So that you don't have to load a whole new page just to authenticate. [18:50:38] I believe mvolz's mentors are James Forrester, Trevor Parscal - thank you both [18:50:41] * gwicke kudos to mvolz! [18:50:46] WorldCat! [18:51:05] Except for naming things - gwicke was the mentor for that part. [18:51:06] also, thanks to Matt & the VE folks for mentoring [18:51:12] mvolz is not here! I will have to give her a link to this log [18:51:27] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Task_recommendations for what I'm going to talk about next, FYI [18:51:36] gwicke, mwalker? [18:51:39] also, added benefit, we can get stats about source reuse in Wikipedia [18:51:42] superm401: yup [18:51:43] Questions? [18:51:44] which is huge [18:52:02] is mvolz on IRC? [18:52:02] sumanah: except when you have multiple socks obviously [18:52:07] sorry superm401 [18:52:11] DarTar, Andrea Forte is working on a project for that as well (analyzing source usage in Wikipedia) [18:52:13] Or after RoanKattouw I guess ;) [18:52:29] * sumanah applauds Marielle's work [18:52:31] jamesofur: they arn't socks, oliver yelled at me when i edited with the *_(WMF) account :P [18:52:41] ebernhardson: AS HE SHOULD! [18:52:45] Yep, very cool. Thanks, Marielle and the whole citoid team. [18:52:46] gj whispering to Eloquence_mm right next to his mic, RoanKattouw [18:53:04] superm401: yes, this is getting quite a lot of attention, also: http://figshare.com/articles/An_analysis_of_Wikipedia_references_across_PLOS_publications/1048991 [18:53:14] DarTar, not currently, or at least not in any channel where I'm in [18:53:18] ah sorry, wrong link [18:53:26] Roan walking through some VE changes now [18:53:50] mwalker: alright, I’ll reach out to her by mail [18:54:39] DarTar, do you know her email? [18:54:54] not a standard wikimedia mail? [18:55:05] she's not an employee :) [18:55:10] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Mvolz/OPW_proposal_round_8#Name_and_contact_information DarTar mwalker [18:55:25] sweet, thanks :) [18:56:03] aha DarTar https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Citoid [18:56:25] yup, found it and tweeted it [18:56:29] cool :) [18:56:40] Shouldn't the Open button be a link? So the user can choose new tab, new window, incognito, etc... [18:57:09] RoanKattouw, what happens if you click away? Does it save? [18:58:05] In the interest of editor retention, we've let VE users read comments, so Wikitext editors don't murder them. [18:58:24] :) [18:58:30] It's good how RoanKattouw cuts to the heart of the matter. [19:02:27] marcoil: A shouted answer to your question is that it is internally a link so that you can actually right click/open in tab etc [19:02:42] re: my question about microformats for Web pages so they work with Zotero/Citoid, https://www.zotero.org/support/dev/exposing_metadata#using_an_open_standard_for_exposing_metadata [19:02:45] Thanks! [19:02:49] The user script works on other wikis to, at least svwiki, I just tested it [19:03:03] I love the "must have been built while I was on vacation" evasion [19:03:04] ;-) [19:03:22] sumanah: RoanKattouw_away gets blamed for enough things he didn't do, he's earned it [19:03:37] It's totally fair. And funny. [19:04:06] to install the gadget on enwiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mvolz/veCiteFromURL [19:05:36] YuviPanda: See? India and Asia. Wikipedia agrees. [19:05:44] what did I do?! [19:06:01] * stultus is away: I'm busy [19:06:14] * marktraceur refers to the Indian/Asian conversation with YuviPanda prompted by inability to use chopsticks. [19:06:33] marktraceur: aaah, that :) I'm still chopstick disabled [19:06:43] * marktraceur builds YuviPanda a chopstick ramp [19:06:58] marktraceur: chopstick onboarding you mean [19:07:17] User script, not a gadget. Plan to try it, though. :) [19:07:18] On-sticking, more like it. [19:07:23] hi mvolz! Citoid looks great! [19:07:28] mvolz: You missed the gushing praise! [19:07:36] mvolz: ditto [19:07:43] Big thanks to manybubbles for helping us with CirrusSearch [19:07:44] I know, sumanah just let me know :) [19:07:44] mvolz: http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23wikimedia-office/20140731.txt [19:07:55] Any questions for Stephen ? [19:08:05] Steven too [19:09:06] jamesofur: Can we get slaporte on stage to rant about licenses? :P [19:09:27] marktraceur: I'm sure though Luis is often best for those rants :) [19:09:48] Next will be Jesse with a Grants presentation [19:10:06] Hi Jessie! [19:10:06] Currently we don't do view-based recommendations [19:10:16] But we haven't ruled it out. [19:10:25] We could comb through the watch list. [19:10:30] YuviPanda: "Learnings", drink [19:10:50] marktraceur: I just darnk the only liquid around (water [19:10:51] ) [19:10:59] rmoen: yeah watchlst is a good idea [19:11:07] rmoen: there's also this idea Ori cooked up of extending the watchlist table to keep other kinds of lists [19:11:07] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Support_for_user-specific_page_lists_in_core [19:11:14] jamesofur, I think we'll have to bump tilman - can you track him down and let him know? [19:11:21] This would be *really* useful for recommendations, todo lists, and more [19:11:27] HaeB: ^ [19:11:31] StevenW: +1 [19:11:33] ah, HaeB. of course. [19:11:39] It makes me so happy to see how Grants is learning and helping all Wikimedia grantees learn [19:11:41] (I think he knows already though, we were talking abotu the possibility) [19:12:07] StevenW: i still think that it'd be worth implementing [19:12:17] ori: agreed [19:12:33] let me know when you're off the HHVM bandwagon and we'll do it :) [19:12:50] Growth could also just pick it up [19:12:58] gimme 5 mins re: hhvm [19:13:00] StevenW: I look forward to hearing about progress on that [19:13:02] * ori deploys to entire cluster [19:13:13] Lulz [19:13:16] Ahh, the user script did not recognize the correct templates for books etcetera, but it did a nice fallback to a simple citation [19:14:00] Props to grantmaking for supporting the sister projects. [19:14:06] JanAinali: yeah, books are pretty borked. Only works well with amazon at present :) [19:14:23] I love how we hand out so much money [19:14:42] well it was an amazon link, bit I giuess the templates are hardcoded for enwiki right now [19:15:20] "size of grant does not correspond to impact" WOW [19:15:26] mvolz: I tried the script on svwiki [19:15:26] er, correlate [19:15:37] Wow gj Eloquence_mm [19:15:52] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab !!! <3 [19:15:53] point to the remote folks, we lost our screen for a while because Eloquence_mm's screen went to sleep :) [19:16:11] marktraceur, for whatever reason ubuntu defaults to 640x480 on this display [19:16:30] There is an IdeaLab mixer at Wikimania to chat about ideas if anyone is interested in either looking for help etc. [19:16:36] sumanah, yeah. Another interesting question is, "Which projects could have been funded at a lower level and still succeeded?". [19:16:44] Among those that did succeed. [19:16:47] Ugh. [19:17:15] superm401: yeah [19:20:16] I recently came across https://www.opentechfund.org/about/model and found it interesting to compare and contrast [19:22:31] Thanks everyone for coming [19:22:49] In case anyone hasn’t seen it: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/WPZeroPetition [19:22:53] Thanks everyone! [19:22:53] thanks [19:23:00] That concludes are abnormally scheduled Metrics meeting :) [19:25:30] JanAinali: yes, the user script is hard coded for en-wiki [19:25:50] the support that we're building into VE will be able to work on any wiki