[16:39:21] Hallo allereen mijn schatjes!!! Ik ben je moeder. [16:39:31] !ops ^ [16:39:32] Sigh [16:39:37] * marktraceur has +o I think [16:39:44] Cool [16:39:44] Hallo Krinkle Timo Tijhof mijn schatje!!! Ik ben je moeder. [16:39:45] you have [16:39:46] nice [16:39:51] Hallo allereen mijn schatjes!!! Ik ben je moeder. [16:39:51] Hallo allereen mijn schatjes!!! Ik ben je moeder. [16:39:51] Hallo allereen mijn schatjes!!! Ik ben je moeder. [16:39:51] Hallo allereen mijn schatjes!!! Ik ben je moeder. [16:40:03] give it enough rope....... [16:49:09] marktraceur :) [17:05:54] Ugh [17:31:09] Hi everyone my babys!!! I'm your mother bot [17:31:12] Hi everyone my babys!!! I'm your mother [17:31:15] bot [17:31:19] Hi everyone my babys!!! I'm your mother bot [17:31:55] !ops [17:33:30] Krinkle|detached [17:33:37] Schatjes!! [17:41:47] Lots of trolling today [17:48:40] schatjes! [18:01:13] Any questions about the Phabricator Tech Talk ask here [18:01:18] link to youtube: [18:01:21] phabricator meeting starts soon? [18:01:28] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fpkHyCGX1Y [18:01:29] the video is live [18:01:31] Apparently yes! [18:02:05] Andre just started [18:02:07] woooohoooooo!!! [18:02:33] If I remember correctly, there is a button to switch audio modes from 'voice' to 'audio', which should get bette rsound quality [18:02:38] it's a bit flaky at the moment [18:03:04] who's speaking? [18:03:11] Andre Klapper [18:03:18] aklapper (wmf) [18:03:33] andre__. [18:03:58] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/ [18:04:17] ugh. /me hopes we can find some way to avoid ever starting a hangout on air meeting without first at least saying 1 word in this channel [18:04:34] Is there a real name policy? :) [18:04:44] marktraceur: shush [18:04:52] (i somehow managed to forget there was a video component so i was waiting for something to happen here!!) [18:04:59] greg-g: I had to [18:06:26] jira! [18:06:38] * valhallasw`cloud waves to legoktm [18:06:42] o/ [18:07:22] jeremyb: next time I will announce it next time here at least 5 min before hand [18:08:14] rfarrand: danke... i don't know how i forgot about the video part... [18:09:32] Will project/component be handled with projects too? [18:09:40] Or have we figured a way to have subprojects [18:09:56] marktraceur: well there are workboards (sp?) [18:10:11] so, within a project you can say which boards it is on [18:10:12] Who's on the hangout to the left of Andre? Looks like a big group [18:10:25] yes, big group it is [18:10:29] jeremyb: Oh, I thought there was only one board per project [18:10:43] we could even say it's a "visual editor" :) [18:10:51] Dohoho. [18:11:03] there is only one board per project, but projects are cheap [18:11:05] marktraceur: i mean a task could be in multiple columns [18:11:13] and you can make new columns [18:11:20] Sure [18:11:30] greg-g: can you have a project be in another project? [18:11:40] no [18:11:50] I guess you could just have a task in MediaWiki extensions *and* in UploadWizard e.g. [18:11:56] marktraceur: right [18:11:57] S page is asking a question [18:12:08] marktraceur: that is Chase [18:12:17] Oh, it's just a still. [18:12:40] About 40 seconds lag I guess [18:13:01] 27 people on youtube, 5 people on hangout and 10 people watching in SF [18:13:19] yes, lag [18:13:33] oh, more semi-plain-text formats to learn :-( [18:13:37] jeremyb: We've had a minute in the past, so this is actually an improvement [18:13:45] hah [18:13:51] valhallasw`cloud: If you don't like it, you can geeeeeet out. :P [18:13:52] i wonder if this is going through ulsfo [18:14:01] Joel is asking a question [18:14:01] https://secure.phabricator.com/book/phabricator/article/remarkup/ < markup language details [18:14:07] joel who? [18:14:49] Ooh, do changes to dependent tasks get propagated to parents automatically? [18:14:49] Joel Krauska from IT [18:15:03] ok, OIT [18:15:10] Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like the whole purpose of migrating is to create a centralized place which eliminates the need for external linking. [18:15:26] we'll always have external linking [18:15:27] rmoen, yeah, but we'll still need to link to MediaWiki.org and Wikipedia and such. [18:15:30] 32 viewers on youtube now! [18:15:32] rmoen: Yeah, but that's not a day 0 thing I think [18:15:34] You can also put {T123} to show the full title of another task. [18:15:44] Linking to Gerrit will still be necessary IIUC [18:15:49] Sure, so we use actual Urls for that. [18:16:01] to gerrit changes for old changes before differential. to 3rd-party bug trackers, etc. [18:16:24] marktraceur, what do you mean about propagating dependent tasks? [18:16:37] I believe it sends out an email if a dependent task changes, similar to Bugzilla [18:16:38] * aude waves [18:16:43] superm401: Like if I close a documentation bug in bugzilla, it will update bug 1 [18:16:46] Yeah, so that's good [18:16:51] hi aude, harej [18:17:07] Greg Grossmeier was speaking [18:17:17] marktraceur, yeah, it will show on bug 1 which subtasks are open, I believe. [18:17:27] jeremyb, you can only have a task in one column per workboard, but a task can be on multiple workboards. [18:17:31] ping me if you have any questions [18:17:38] S page is now asking a question [18:17:40] rfarrand: so you get an idea of lag, greg-g started speaking a few secs after you said "was speaking" :) [18:17:56] superm401: ohhh, really? [18:18:24] jeremyb, yeah, I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be on one column per board. [18:18:25] Jared Zimmerman speaking [18:18:35] who's on left of S? [18:18:55] James Forrester? [18:19:00] other left [18:19:03] me? [18:19:07] aha :) [18:19:17] marktraceur, example of how subtasks appear on the main task: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T174 [18:19:45] welcome spagewmf [18:20:01] Sweet, perfect superm401 [18:20:30] Jared Z speaking [18:21:14] jeremyb: I think that's Abbey Ripstra [18:22:01] Also, you don't have to use "Create subtask". You can, but you can also connect two pre-existing tasks with a "depends on" relationship. [18:22:03] Oh, no, that person is new to me [18:22:16] marktraceur: which person? [18:22:40] The person on aripstra's right side [18:22:59] marktraceur: That's prtksxna. [18:23:03] Aha [18:23:03] Prateek Saxena [18:23:11] Didn't know prtksxna was in SF! Cool beans [18:23:31] get ready for questions! [18:24:08] do any projects in the test instance have workboards? I'm coming up empty [18:24:18] oh yes being able to see contributions in cronological orders. yay [18:24:22] which test instance? [18:24:42] Any questions? [18:25:13] jeremyb: phab-01.wmflabs.org, isn't that the only instance? [18:25:13] That was Jared again [18:25:15] spagewmf: phabricator.wikimedia.org or the one on labs? [18:25:21] * greg-g nods [18:25:29] * aude wants to know where the quips are? :) [18:25:36] aude++++++ [18:25:40] That's a good bloody question [18:25:51] marktraceur: Are you in SF? [18:26:06] I'm not, I moved to Las Vegas [18:26:12] spagewmf: I don't see many tasks in the labs instance at all :) [18:26:27] spagewmf: well some people have been mistakenly calling phabricator.wm.o test [18:26:29] and it's not [18:26:36] so to be extra sure... [18:26:47] rfarrand, how are people going to prove that they own the email they put in bugzilla_email? [18:27:03] So you can't just grab someone else's bug comments. [18:27:09] watching the hangout, no idea how to connect there so that I can speak, so I will ask you here, how / when is the migration of current projects like huggle going to happen? [18:27:09] superm401 [18:27:10] greg-g: yeah, so we can view real projects on phabricator.wikimeda.org , or tinker on phab-01 [18:27:12] will ask [18:27:28] petan: I will ask for you [18:27:30] spagewmf: right [18:27:49] petan, see also https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Phabricator#Migration_timeline [18:28:03] who is this? [18:28:19] jeremyb: Chase Pettet [18:28:31] aha [18:28:52] I was quite confused because bugzilla say it will be closed in few weeks, but phabricator is far from being useable yet o.O at least for regular people [18:29:05] far? [18:29:38] jeremyb: login return error 503 to me :P that is "Far" for me [18:29:38] andre__ what's the first? [18:29:44] first most common [18:29:46] petan, it says right on the main page login is disabled. [18:29:55] petan: right, login is not enabled AFAIK [18:30:00] That's not a bug. [18:30:06] It's deliberate while they get the production instance ready. [18:30:09] jeremyb: that's a major problem :P [18:30:11] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T457 [18:30:15] petan: no it's not [18:30:50] petan: just asked your question - let me know if you have follow up questions [18:31:16] thanks! [18:31:24] np [18:31:29] Could you lock the hangout to Andre's screen? On Air viewers can't switch and automatic focus is sometimes slow at switching back. [18:31:33] petan, where are you trying to log? [18:31:55] lokal-profil: it should already be locked on his screen. What are you seeing? [18:32:34] is the " Test instance containing Bugzilla reports automatically migrated" going to be phab-01, or something else? [18:32:38] It switches based on who is talking, but someitmes takes long to switch back [18:33:12] spagewmf, something else [18:33:20] so is it going to be like bugzilla gets disabled and then data get moved, or phabricator will be opened while bugzilla is still up? [18:33:28] lokal-profil: hmm, here it is just locked on Andre's screen. cndiv any thoughts? [18:33:41] Yo dawg [18:33:42] petan: would you like me to ask? [18:33:46] petan: current plan is 3ish days of bugzilla downtime [18:33:47] I herd you like phabricator [18:34:02] petan: (with no phab either) [18:34:06] jeremyb: for these 3 days both won't be working? [18:34:09] aha ok [18:34:15] vacation! [18:34:16] that was pretty much what I needed to know :o [18:34:22] great [18:34:28] petan, https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Phabricator/versus_Bugzilla#Migration [18:34:37] Separate accounts for WMF staff obviously [18:34:52] /nick marktraceurWMF [18:35:17] please no (WMF). [18:35:21] who is this with "pretty strict policies"? [18:35:24] WMF on bugs stupid!!!!!! [18:36:05] That mess is about elevated rights and should not be drug into the software side [18:36:17] * aude didn't last long with Katie (WMDE) on irc ;) [18:36:22] confused everyone [18:36:30] hah [18:36:31] * marktraceur hugs greg-g [18:36:59] * bd808 will be bd808 on phab or he will be sad [18:37:13] legoktm, however, now that 2 accounts are required for on-wiki, it sort of makes sense. [18:37:19] not really. [18:37:20] /nick petan_NAWAF (not affiliated with any foundation) [18:37:23] any more questions? [18:37:23] * James_F has two accounts on Bugzilla. [18:37:24] legoktm, that way, you can have a 1-1 mapping between on-wiki account and Phabricator account. [18:37:34] superm401: so I need two gerrit accounts? [18:37:39] we don't turn off gerrit accounts when people leave [18:37:40] rfarrand: where are the quips? :) [18:37:43] legoktm, that's not connected to on-wiki. [18:37:50] quips! [18:37:53] that is important [18:37:53] aude: I will ask [18:37:57] but gerrit is moving to phab. [18:37:57] Quiiiiiips [18:37:57] legoktm, anyway, I don't think it will be required to have (WMF) on Phabricator, but who knows. [18:37:58] ok :D [18:38:06] quips! [18:38:14] marktraceur: I'll miss them! [18:38:17] quips! [18:38:26] soemone should dump them somewhere! [18:38:41] Yeah, quips are fun, someone should make a user script to show them on Phabricator. :) [18:38:53] spagewmf, rfarrand, no projects can not have multiple boards (yet). [18:38:55] +1 [18:39:01] phabricator is very extendable thing [18:39:03] But a task can have multiple projects and thus multiple boards. [18:39:04] it should not be problem [18:39:07] legoktm: I remember reading that code years ago...I think it makes sense after an hour [18:39:16] Where will we get wisdom like that [18:39:18] "DevOps [18:39:18] DevOps [18:39:18] ·Workboards [18:39:20] ·Members" [18:39:24] ^plural :) [18:39:34] 1 project == 1 board. an single issue can exist in multiple projects [18:39:45] * aude cries [18:39:45] NUUUUUUUU [18:39:48] RESOLVED WONTFIX [18:39:50] -2 [18:39:51] MIGRATION'S OFF [18:39:51] We can't migrate to phab [18:39:53] CAN'T DO IT [18:39:55] :) [18:40:04] Surely the other way around? [18:40:05] Yeah, we really need to fix that 's' in Workboards. [18:40:10] andre: I disapprove of this [18:40:11] * Elitre wants quips [18:40:13] Enabling quips, once written, is a WONTFIX? ;-) [18:40:20] James_F: No, the migration is [18:40:33] Do we get the meme generator turned on :) [18:40:36] New project, quips, we'll just create tasks for each month and paste things in [18:40:37] quips was the biggest reason I ever used bugzilla [18:40:48] only* [18:40:49] greg-g: Is this in scope or releng work? [18:40:51] * James_F holds his head in his hands. [18:40:58] * petan migrates to bash.org now... [18:41:18] Where do we file phabricator bugs in bugzilla? [18:41:25] lol [18:41:30] let's make a product for it [18:41:32] Reedy, :) [18:41:53] I presumed we'd have a Wikimedia -> Phabriactor or something [18:41:56] Reedy: which part? [18:42:04] so Flow would have "Flow current sprint", "Flow backlog", and "Flow previous sprints", all separate projects. Hmmm. [18:42:05] greg-g: quips extension for Phab [18:42:05] Also, +1 to the TV displaying boards, but someone would need to maintain it. [18:42:37] Reedy: :) sure [18:42:48] talk over! :) [18:42:55] I forgot to hit Boo when andre said that quip thing [18:43:01] kthxbai rfarrand [18:43:03] I think it's RPC, not REST. [18:43:20] thanks! [18:43:23] thanks! [18:43:25] Thanks~! [18:43:29] thanks for watching! [18:43:34] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=71245 [18:43:42] Quick, vote on the bug! That makes them get dealt with quicker! [18:43:46] very informative, thanks! [18:44:26] Thanks, everyone. [18:45:07] voting is off :/ [18:45:42] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/page.cgi?id=voting/bug.html&bug_id=71245 [18:45:45] Reedy, speaking of Phabricator, or should I say phab: ... https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T454 :) [18:46:16] Yeah... [18:46:26] There's a few other fixes to the script that possibly want backporting for use... [18:46:30] Do I have an account on phab? ;) [18:46:53] Reedy, you can... https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Phabricator#Access_to_phabricator.wikimedia.org [18:46:56] "The external account ("LDAP") you just authenticated with is not configured to allow registration on this Phabricator install. An administrator may have recently disabled it." [18:47:17] * qgil pings Reedy [18:47:31] * Reedy gives qgil phab access [18:48:03] that seems backwards [18:48:26] It also says to ping them, not them ping you :) [18:49:30] anyway, if you want Phabricator accounts, you can have them, just let us know [18:50:02] Probably a good idea please [18:50:08] I was in thought that we can use existing LDAP users :o [18:50:24] or SUL [18:50:25] doesn't have Trello checklist or I imagine {{done}} templates, I guess we all use a CLIPPINGS.txt file with ✓ and ✗ in it? [18:50:28] petan, see https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T463 [18:51:42] !clippings is ✓ and ✗ [18:51:42] Key was added [19:00:39] qgil: ping [19:00:53] pong Pine [19:01:48] qgil: apparently someone thought to notify the staff email list about the IRC vulnerability earlier, but not the public email lists. Can you make sure that procedural loophole gets closed the next time there's a security bulletin that affects users? [19:02:54] spagewmf: phab's markup has "[ ]" and "[x]" checkboxes. Doc is buried in -- https://secure.phabricator.com/book/phabricator/article/remarkup/#layout [19:04:23] oh good, Heather's here. [19:04:48] Pine mmm ok, although the email employees got referred to the internal IRC channel(s?) that only employees can access [19:04:58] heatherw: I have some more work for you if you're looking for new projects [19:05:18] Pine, I actually knew because my IRC client told me, and I guess this was the same for most IRC users? [19:05:24] hahaha. are you my boss now, pine? [19:05:50] heatherw: hah, no, but I have a long list of ideas if you're looking for something to do :) [19:06:22] bd808|LUNCH, spagewmf not so buried considering that it is a link in the editing toolbar... [19:06:38] That has not happened for years, I am both sad and happy to say. [19:06:39] qgil: the vulnerability affects lots more users than just WMF staff, and my IRC client was not so nice as to give me an obvious bulletin. [19:07:00] I found the notice buried in some other text. [19:07:07] Pine: well then your client wasn't online? [19:07:11] at the right time [19:07:26] jeremyb: correct, but it was online before and after, meaning that the vulnerability applies [19:07:37] maybe [19:07:43] probably [19:07:43] maybe not if you were using certfp [19:07:58] but why not reset just to be safe? [19:08:05] Exactly. [19:08:24] trello checklists also have automatic progress bar and 37% complete based on how many you've checked off. [19:08:41] * Pine adds "cloning heatherw" to his list of research projects [19:08:45] Anyway, back to work [19:08:49] i think it's not 100% clear that this should be on wikitech-l though. so how is qgil supposed to write guidelines for next time? [19:09:01] in any case why is any of this conversation in this channel? [19:09:26] Pine: :) [19:09:41] heatherw: do you consent to clone? [19:09:51] hmmmm [19:10:05] I'm going to need to read the fine print. [19:10:32] Pine: you have some writing to do [19:10:47] ok, bye [19:10:53] jeremyb: ok, but I am trying to get some actual work done now, so... [19:10:57] ok bye :) [19:11:08] you mean cloning? [19:11:15] :P [19:11:21] qgil: is there a page for Phabricator <-> Trello, or Phabricator project management? As I recall there were tasks or project in the old phab instance about this, but they're gone [19:11:58] spagewmf, it's all there https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/search/query/FUiXmTLlvwlZ/#R [19:19:37] qgil, are you sure that dickson is limited to employees? [19:19:54] uh [19:19:58] dickson is open to everyone [19:20:20] superm401, I'm not sure about anything IRC+password, as I don't use these channels [19:20:58] I actually meant the WMF IRC server, not the channels. [19:21:04] And I'm pretty sure everyone can access it. [19:22:11] It's a normal server open to anyone FreeNode allows. [20:59:17] hello [21:00:10] Hi mglaser [21:00:13] hi [21:00:17] hey [21:00:20] It's that time again, eh [21:00:21] #startmeeting RFC meeting [21:00:21] Meeting started Wed Sep 24 21:00:21 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is TimStarling. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. [21:00:21] Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. [21:00:21] The meeting name has been set to 'rfc_meeting' [21:00:30] #topic RFC meeting | https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours | Please note: Channel is logged and publicly posted (DO NOT REMOVE THIS NOTE). | Logs: http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23wikimedia-office/ [21:00:34] hi [21:01:31] Hi [21:01:38] ok, should we start with Markus's? [21:01:50] TimStarling : thats fine with me [21:02:04] #topic Extension management with Composer | RFC meeting | https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours | Please note: Channel is logged and publicly posted (DO NOT REMOVE THIS NOTE). | Logs: http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23wikimedia-office/ [21:02:11] #link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Extension_management_with_Composer [21:02:45] So, basically, in the RfC proposed to use Composer for extension management [21:03:04] Composer can manage dependencies [21:03:34] And one of the issues non-WMF users have is to find the right extension version for their MW version [21:04:05] Also, this could be the first building block for an extension manager, that can install and update extensions from the GUI [21:04:34] * DanielK_WMDE_ goes to read the rfc [21:04:39] Semantic MediaWiki is already using Composer for installation [21:04:40] o/ [21:04:56] the part about not running extension registration files in the global scope is interesting [21:05:15] have you read legoktm's alternative proposal at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Extension_registration ? [21:05:44] they don't run in global scope, so extensions just use $GLOBALS['wgFoo'] instead, which ends up being basically the same thing [21:05:46] * mglaser skins the alternative proposal [21:06:49] legoktm: is your registration an alternative or does it fit into the composer scheme? [21:07:10] it can be both. [21:07:37] IMO I think composer is useful for managing dependencies and other things, but doesn't help much in terms of actually registering the extension with mediawiki [21:07:43] what I'm unsure about is the idea of migrating all extensions to $GLOBALS and then migrating them all to extension.json a short time later [21:07:51] legoktm, TimStarling: i like the json based registration, but i think it's too restrictive. alternatively, the extension could provide an implementation of some interface, say, ExtensionRegistration, that does the same thing, but allows settings to be generated programmatically, based on other settings (e.g. other namespaces, other available extensions, etc). [21:07:57] $GLOBALS seems pretty ugly to me [21:08:28] migrating to json first, and then to composer, seems more sensible. [21:08:33] at least when we used the file scope, we had the option of wrapping it in a get_defined_vars() b/c hack [21:08:58] DanielK_WMDE_: part of the reason for using JSON is that no PHP code needs to be executed to get basic metadata about an extension [21:09:12] and most extensions don't need anything that complicated [21:09:17] I am more concerned about the fact that uninstalling extensions seems not be supported by Composer [21:09:30] just a few classes, hooks and maybe RL modules. [21:09:32] at least, if I understand Jeroen [21:09:49] for more complicated extensions, an interface like that might be interesting. [21:10:00] rm -rf? [21:10:05] I thought uninstalling worked but disabling an installed one did not [21:10:07] legoktm: but for the ones that *do* need a more complicated setup, it should *somehow* be possible to do that (without resorting to the current mess). [21:10:14] I guess that would leave it in the autoloader [21:10:17] agreed. [21:10:57] legoktm: i have some ideas, but i guess we should be discussion the composer proposal :) [21:11:06] * DanielK_WMDE_ takes a minute to finish reading that [21:11:09] :) [21:11:44] there seems to be an incompatibility between the way WMF uses composer and the way SMW uses ist [21:11:45] How "useful" is composer for people on shared hosting and alike where they can't install stuff? [21:12:15] mglaser: i'm confused about how extension management with composer would work. what way does the dependency go? technically, the extensions depend on mediawiki core, not the other way around. [21:12:24] not very useful, I would assume [21:12:30] Reedy: It needs shell and internet access so... [21:12:32] there's also some discussion on the talk page about wikifarms...afaik with composer, there's no way I can install some extensions on one wiki and not others without just having separate composer.json's and multiple copies of extensions. [21:12:34] so installing a component would pull in mediawiki core into the vendor directory... not what we want [21:12:41] is there some nice mechanism that i don't know about? [21:13:10] DanielK_WMDE_ : this is managed by making MW another extension the others depend on. [21:13:15] bd808: ah, it's a phar [21:13:19] Jeroen did some work on this [21:13:30] Reedy: i guess the installer could call composer (scary, i know, but without shell access, what can you do?) [21:13:36] "vendor" directory is just the default [21:13:48] you can override that with install scripts etc. [21:13:52] I wasn't sure if they'd need to apt-get install composer or something daft like that [21:13:53] The question is, can we achieve a good extension management with Composer [21:14:18] is the idea that installation via composer would also register the extension? [21:14:22] mglaser: i have not seen this work nicely yet. maybe he came up with something new recently, but last i discussed this with jeroen, it involved manually entering fake dependencies into core's composer file. [21:14:31] to me, it seems Composer is a good approach, but in order to work well, it needs some workarounds that are, say, hacky [21:14:44] so you would just run composer and then it would be active in the wiki in question? [21:14:50] mglaser: the rfc should explain the details of this mechanism, i think. it's a pretty central thing [21:14:52] DanielK_WMDE_: , exactly [21:14:59] mglaser: eek [21:15:16] the thing is - cpomposer is good at managing dependencies, but it has no notion of optional components [21:15:22] and that's what we are trying to model here [21:15:28]