[16:51:26] Good morning [16:54:13] Hello everyone [16:55:46] Is this the place to be for the office hour? [16:56:22] usually it is [16:56:25] yeah [16:56:41] One starting in 4 minutes about Wikidata? [16:58:47] Hello [17:00:24] hey everyone :) [17:00:29] Hi Lydia [17:00:42] hi [17:01:06] who's here for the office hour? [17:01:12] Me [17:01:19] Yes, I am :) [17:01:20] +1 [17:01:30] me [17:01:39] Yes [17:01:46] #startmeeting Wikidata office hour [17:01:46] Meeting started Wed Sep 23 17:01:46 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is Lydia_WMDE. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. [17:01:47] Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. [17:01:47] The meeting name has been set to 'wikidata_office_hour' [17:01:54] sweet :) [17:02:02] good to have you here [17:02:27] i wanted to start with a short overview of the big things that happened in the 3 months since the last office hour [17:02:28] Hello Everyone :) [17:02:47] then Jo had a topic related to OSM. Is he/she here? [17:02:55] and then we can do questions and discussion [17:02:55] I'm here [17:03:07] ah cool :) [17:03:38] ok so a lot of things have happened since the last office hour. i'll try to briefly summarize the most important ones [17:04:04] * we got support for units [17:04:17] it's taken a long time but it's finally there [17:04:25] o/ [17:04:53] Thanks to the help from the discovery team at wmf we now also have a query service [17:05:24] we've rolled out arbitrary access to a huge number of wikis and i think we're done with all wikipedias now [17:05:46] and it even works on en.WP! :-) [17:05:54] indeed! :D [17:06:17] thanks to this we now also have data on how much wikidata is actually used on the other projects [17:06:23] https://tools.wmflabs.org/audetools/wikidata-stats/ gives a first overview [17:06:36] we'll be working on making this track stats over time [17:06:53] we have a fancy new mobile view [17:06:54] so great! [17:07:11] https://m.wikidata.org/wiki/Q2 [17:07:53] clap clap [17:07:59] we also got the first parts of the student project live that will help us with data quality: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:ConstraintReport/Q146 - an improved constraint system [17:08:19] Wikibooks got access to the data on wikidata [17:08:35] we made it into the top 10 of the Land der Ideen competition winners [17:08:49] #8 :( [17:08:57] top10! :D [17:09:45] and most importantly: our content is growing and getting richer. just a few interesting things related to that: [17:09:56] ** WikiProject Sum of all Paintings reached the milestone of 100.000 paintings. [17:09:56] * Mix'n'match is growing https://tools.wmflabs.org/mix-n-match/? [17:09:56] ** Primary sources tool is gaining traction [17:09:57] ** http://addshore.com/2015/07/barack-obama-geneawiki-1-year-later/ [17:09:57] ** https://ddll.inf.tu-dresden.de/web/Wikidata/Maps-06-2015/en [17:09:57] ** We passed 70M statements [17:10:23] I think this is pretty sweet for 3 months. what do you think? [17:10:34] top !0! :) [17:10:35] yay! [17:10:36] Indeed, major leaps [17:10:45] it was a good quarter :) [17:10:48] Woop woop! [17:10:52] think so too :) [17:11:05] ok so then let's get to what's next: [17:11:30] i think the biggest next breakthrough for wikidata will be the article placeholder Lucie is working on right now [17:12:00] the basic idea being that wikidata always wanted to support the small wikipedias but we've not yet really achieved that to the extend i want it to [17:12:24] the article placeholder will help with this [17:12:49] I heard it's based on Scribunto? [17:13:18] when someone searches for a topic a wikipedia has no article about but wikidata has data for we'll have the opportunity to show data from wikidata to the reader so they at least get the basic information [17:13:39] we then can also encourage them to create a proper article or translate one from another language [17:14:00] my hope is that this will give a huge boost to the small wikipedias by getting them more readers and editors [17:14:03] or jumpstart one based on the proposal? [17:14:28] Polyglot: yeah we will have to see how/if that will work [17:15:02] ricordisamoa: the content layout will be up to the local community via Lua. not sure how much scribunto Lucie will use atm [17:15:04] It sounds like many templates in many languages will be needed for this [17:15:13] we will provide a meaningful default [17:15:26] * DanielK_WMDE is late [17:15:26] because especially the small ones will probably not be able to do it all by themself [17:16:01] we'll hopefully have a first rough version to look at pretty soon [17:16:31] Lydia_WMDE: will these placeholders be accessible to search engines? [17:16:55] dennyvrandecic: ideally yes but we have not talked details [17:17:13] so not sure if/how to make it happen [17:17:17] would be good, otherwise an important path for users to find these pages would not be available [17:17:23] yeah agreed [17:17:27] dennyvrandecic: I don't believe they will be in the very first iteration / implementaion [17:17:34] Hi there [17:18:15] the other bigger thing i want to get done is separating the identifiers in the UI and doing linking them in the software instead of a gadget [17:18:34] this should make pages much more easy to scan and understand [17:18:39] yes! [17:19:11] we're also working on making it possible to enter the reference at the same time as you add a statement [17:19:17] instead of having to do it in two steps [17:19:56] another thing we're working on is making the edit summaries we show on the wikipedias and so on more meaningful [17:20:03] right now they only say "an item has changed" [17:20:28] :D [17:20:31] Now discussion on Calvinism! [17:20:33] will users be offered the chance to write a summary themselves? [17:20:37] Nah joking haha [17:21:20] dennyvrandecic: i'd like to stay away from that as much as possible to keep things accessible in all languages. but if we have to i am open to considering it in the future [17:21:21] dennyvrandecic: that would be great [17:21:30] dennyvrandecic: denny said no to that feature. oh, wait. [17:21:31] ok [17:22:11] I just want to ask why merge.js does not work at times. Does anyone have this problem too? I need to deactivate and activate then it will work [17:22:22] DanielK_WMDE: :D [17:22:25] Jianhui67: we'll get to that later [17:22:33] we'll also work on getting the extension deployed that will help with checking against 3rd party databases [17:22:35] :) [17:22:38] Jianhui67: Does your browser console say something? [17:22:41] Lydia_WMDE: if we allow user created summaries, they should be used in addition to what we have now, not instead. [17:23:33] the result of constraint checks and checks against 3rd party databases will then be used to display little indicators next to a statement in case it is problematic [17:23:47] i hope this way more people become aware of issues and can help fix them [17:24:35] Do you have any names of databases that are supported? :) [17:24:38] we'll also add more sister projects. the next ones to get access to the interwiki links are meta, mediawiki and wikispecies [17:24:59] sjoerddebruin: in the first version the german national library. it can be extended later [17:25:25] What happened to MusicBrainz? [17:25:34] and last but not least we'll have a student research everything around editing wikidata from outside wikidata (wikipedia for example) [17:25:41] sjoerddebruin: they don't offer usable dumps [17:25:51] sjoerddebruin and Lydia_WMDE: are these all supported - https://tools.wmflabs.org/mix-n-match/ ? [17:25:58] DanielK_WMDE: Ah, okay. Thought I saw a screenshot back then. [17:26:02] yeah. not impossible to fix but for the students it was too much to start [17:26:21] Scott_WUaS: no [17:26:27] sjoerddebruin: yes, we went for MusicBrainz first, but it turned out to be impractical. you basically have to run their software in order to use their dumps [17:26:29] thanks [17:26:36] DanielK_WMDE: yikes [17:26:46] I use Google Chrome sjoerddebruin [17:26:54] alright - this is it for my overview [17:27:08] Polyglot: do you want to talk for a few minutes about osm? [17:27:14] yes [17:27:27] Jianhui67: Okay, do other Javascripts work when merge.js doesn't work? [17:27:28] Scott_WUaS: would be awesome to support all those. but constraint checks require a lot more detailed import than just matching up the identifiers. a lot of work for so many sorces, all using different data structures [17:27:36] Yea [17:27:50] Hm, weird. Do you know how to see Javascript errors? [17:27:57] Polyglot: the floor is yours [17:28:00] DanielK_WMDE: thanks [17:28:02] I created a Lua module, my very first experience with Scribunto. [17:28:25] It's hard to link from wikidata to Openstreetmap, so we link in the other direction [17:28:38] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Wikidata [17:28:53] Polyglot: why/how is it hard? [17:29:13] on OSM objects it's possible to link directly to wikidata, or to describe who is the artist, or who is the subject [17:29:33] the problem on the Openstreetmap side, is that our identifiers aren't stable [17:29:59] oh right, that's bad [17:30:02] an object can start as a node, but the be converted to a closed line (for a building) [17:30:04] that also means no stable URLs [17:30:31] or it can start as a closed line (for landuse) but then become a relation (multipolygon) [17:30:48] so linking to an object is simply not practical [17:31:11] Polyglot: if you have Qids in OSM, can we use these for linking? I mean, could OSM support URLs that say "show me a map for wikidata item Q64", and it would show berlin? [17:31:16] Adding a tag (property) to an OSM object, OTOH is possible [17:31:32] linking would then be trivial [17:31:48] indeed, DanielK_WMDE. that's what I'm getting to (slowly) [17:31:58] ok, got it :) [17:32:33] the problem is how to find those objects in OSM, tagged with a Wikidata identifier? [17:32:40] is there an API to get data about an OSM node/way/etc. by Wikidata id? [17:32:48] The solution is called Overpass, a way to query Openstreetmap data [17:33:14] but then the problem becomes: how to write a query for it that works without too much fuss? [17:33:22] So I created this module: [17:33:35] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Module:OSM [17:33:52] It has test cases, which (hopefully) showcase the possibilities [17:34:18] can you link us to an example? [17:34:22] You can click on those, then you get redirected to Overpass Turbo [17:34:31] can we run the query programmatically? [17:34:40] which shows you the objects on a dynamic map [17:34:42] and get the dataz on WP? [17:34:47] Polyglot: hm, a Lua module is great, but we can't use that on Wikidata itself. [17:34:55] indeed [17:35:08] the plan was to use them on the various Wikipedias [17:35:18] I deployed on nl, en, fr and de atm [17:35:32] Polyglot: How about a standalone web service that basically works like a URL shortener: you call it with url parameters similar to the arguments you give to the Lua module, and it would simply redirect to the correct OSM URL [17:35:40] could run on toollabs [17:36:17] Basically, instead of making a module that generates URLs for use in Wikitext, make a qweb service that forwards from a simpel URL with a Q-id to the OSM query. [17:36:26] that could then be used from anywhere [17:36:57] I tried to stay within the framework of Wikimedia, hence the Lua code [17:37:20] In fact the Overpass Turbo you get redirected to, sort of does what you want [17:37:23] works great, i just tried it :) [17:37:30] https://tools.wmflabs.org/wd2osm/Q183 [17:37:53] ricordisamoa: yea, exactly [17:38:04] I get a four hundred and four [17:38:17] just an idea [17:38:20] it was an example of how such a service could be used [17:38:30] now someone needs to write wd2osm :) [17:38:43] What I liked about the Module is that it used the correct wikidata identifier automatically to build the query [17:38:53] pretty cool :) [17:38:56] lol [17:39:26] Then I added some more parameters to use it in various circumstances [17:39:46] if overpass has a JSON/XML API we can create an extension on top of Scribunto to run the query directly [17:40:31] ricordisamoa: relying on third party services for rendering is a big no-no, afaik [17:40:32] My personal favourite: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuven#Externe_links [17:40:44] All streets named after the city of Leuven [17:41:07] neat [17:41:40] DanielK_WMDE: isn't there an OSM mirror on wmflabs? [17:41:47] Yes, it's always an external link [17:41:55] Since a few days, ricordisamoa. [17:42:01] They are working on that ricordisamoa [17:42:25] Polyglot: anything else you want to show? or should we move on to general questions/discussion [17:42:29] but it's early stages, and it doesn't do what this module does: query for wikidata tags in OSM data [17:42:47] ricordisamoa: there is a tile server. probably no overpass service. but there might be, who knows. [17:42:50] I'm done, thank you for your attention [17:42:55] :) [17:43:11] stepping down from the platform :-) [17:43:14] hehe [17:43:16] alright [17:43:24] ricordisamoa: however, relying on labs fro rendering would probably also raise eyebrows. For stuff injected dynamically, labs is fine. But for the static rendering... probably not [17:43:24] then let's get to questions [17:43:33] https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Openstreetmap_Databases [17:43:34] Thanks, Polyglot - and great! [17:43:43] I have a question about Librarybase [17:43:46] Lydia_WMDE: Any news about the new item UI? [17:44:13] sjoerddebruin: work in progress. next step will be the referencing improvements i talked about [17:44:36] and identifier separation [17:44:43] <3 [17:44:48] \o/ [17:45:20] How does/ does the creation of Librarybase change how we do references? [17:45:20] hweyl: ask away [17:46:06] for me it is too early to tell [17:47:04] If a reference is already in Wikidata is it acceptable to use that Qid as a reference? Or should we add the reference to Librarybase and use that? [17:47:58] i don't think librarybase is at the stage yet where this is even an option tbh [17:48:10] it's only been around for days and is a prototype :) [17:48:13] though a cool one [17:48:21] The creation of Librarybase doesn't really change anything yet. [17:48:23] Thank you for the clarification [17:49:19] more questions? [17:49:30] Lydia_WMDE: how are we going to specify plural words for units? [17:49:31] My hope is that Librarybase will eventually make itself redundant and everything it will contain will be put into Wikidata, but that will depend on what Wikidata will agree to accept. [17:49:32] I have two items/questions: 1) in what ways were Wikidatans here involved in this IBM-Wikipedia recent conversation - http://techcrunch.com/2015/09/21/ibm-watson-wont-be-replacing-humans-any-time-soon/ - “about the accuracy of Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia. In just a few seconds, Watson then reviewed all of the articles on Wikipedia to determine if it was a reliable source or not. After reviewing the body of [17:49:33] evidence, it concluded that it was in fact an accurate source of information”? What was involved in this for Wikidata? dennyvrandecic: the person in the picture besides IBM’s Director of Research Dr. John Kelly looks a little like you? What new code had to be written if any for this project? How easy would it be to extend this to other languages? And 2) … [17:49:58] sjoerddebruin: i'd like us to move to unit symbols instead [17:50:43] Ah, nice. [17:50:49] Everything is better than this. [17:50:57] :) [17:51:02] yeah it's still rough [17:51:18] Where are the unit bot imports!?! :( [17:51:19] Scott_WUaS: no that's not me :) [17:51:22] but i opted for doing a rough version earlier since i know it was holding back wikidata [17:51:30] 2) In preparing to make a present of CC wiki World University and School, which is like Wikipedia/Wikidata in 289 languages with best STEM CC OpenCourseWare (e.g. accrediting on CC MIT OCW in 7 languages and CC Yale OYC) and planned in all 7,941+ languages and 257+ countries, for CC Wikidata's third birthday, I'd like to follow with an inquiry about how best to do this in these office hours. I just spoke with the WMF [17:51:30] Languages Engineering Team about this last Wednesday - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW5l7fNeMQg- and have been in touch also with Magnus Manske [17:51:32] :) [17:51:36] sjoerddebruin: dexbot at least is importing [17:51:43] :O [17:51:55] are unit symbols supposed to be localised? [17:52:40] e.g. with a special item for the symbol or a multilingualtext on the unit's item? [17:53:23] I would make sense if they were [17:53:34] ricordisamoa: supposed to be in our plan you mean? we've not gotten there yet to settle on details [17:53:46] I guess Greeks use lambda and Cyrillic uses their L for liter [17:53:46] ok thx [17:53:54] 2) (cont.) This would also involve exploring developing CC MIT OCW in CC Wikipedia/Wikidata (and CC WUaS too). Would it make sense to turn all parts of a MIT OCW course into Wikipedia pages for translation reasons into all 200+ countries’ main langauges? [17:56:22] Scott_WUaS: you're asking this question a lot :) I think no-one has any meaningful answer because it is very vague on what you are actually trying to do and how. i recommend taking the time to write a realistic proposal down in detail. [17:57:16] more questions? we have about 5 minutes left [17:57:18] Lydia_WMDE: Thanks, Lydia! (I hope too WUaS might be a growth story for WMDE for example) [17:57:24] will do [17:57:27] great [17:58:12] ok then i have one: [17:58:27] are you all excited about wikidata's 3rd birthday late next month? [17:58:28] :D [17:58:37] Still making plans for it. [17:58:41] * Lydia_WMDE can't really believe it's 3 years already [17:58:43] yes [17:59:06] What will the online birthday cakes look like ? :) - in javascript ? [17:59:12] haha [17:59:19] we'll see! [17:59:34] ~=[,,_,,]:3 [17:59:51] Do you know this: http://tools.wmflabs.org/wikidata-todo/quick_statements.php [18:00:09] yeah - neat tool by magnus [18:00:16] It would be great if it were possible to create such statements based on an existing entry [18:00:35] I am so exited about the 3rd birthday [18:00:36] very cool [18:00:54] to change where needed, then add a new 'brother/sister' item [18:01:06] And I have a specific question: About the identifier datatype, how do you plan to manage the case where the displayed link is not the best URI related to the id. For example, with ISBN, we want to link to Special:Book but a good URI is urn:ISBN:. [18:01:29] Tpt_: we'll have different ones for display and export [18:01:35] two properties already exist [18:01:48] Lydia_WMDE: great. So, problem solved :-) [18:01:56] indeed! [18:02:38] anything else? or should we wrap it up for today? [18:02:45] It would also be nice if it were easier to add a reference once, then copy it to the other properties (but I guess that's what you were talking about before) [18:02:57] polyglot: agreed [18:02:59] Polyglot: There is a gadget for that. [18:03:04] (only per item sadly) [18:03:05] aha! [18:03:09] jep :) [18:03:18] I'm working on a prototype to edit more items at once [18:03:25] https://tools.wmflabs.org/wikidata-slicer/ doesn't work yet [18:03:38] demo here https://tools.wmflabs.org/wikidata-slicer/demo?ids=Q13406268&ids=new+item&ids=Q15397819 [18:03:59] I hope LibraryBase will get folded into Wikidata, and this might make it easier to do references [18:04:29] ricordisamoa: looks interesting. keep us posted! [18:05:15] I'll have a look at it. Great to hear work is done on it [18:05:38] in the future it should help solve interwiki conflicts [18:06:50] alright folks. time to wrap up. thanks everyone for coming! :) [18:06:57] Thank you [18:07:10] i'm pretty proud of what we all achieved over the past 3 months [18:07:13] Good evening [18:07:20] As you should be :-) [18:08:10] #endmeeting [18:08:10] Meeting ended Wed Sep 23 18:08:10 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) [18:08:10] Minutes: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-09-23-17.01.html [18:08:10] Minutes (text): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-09-23-17.01.txt [18:08:10] Minutes (wiki): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-09-23-17.01.wiki [18:08:11] Log: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2015/wikimedia-office.2015-09-23-17.01.log.html [18:08:58] :) [18:09:39] awwww, i missed office hours :( [18:09:47] * aude reads scrollback [18:11:01] aude: hey! found the bug you reported. fixed it. deployed the fix. live site still broken. no idea why :( [18:11:14] we tried to test by editing Q147 and watching your user page :D [18:11:21] DanielK_WMDE: yay and ugh [18:11:32] maybe usage tracking doesn't work correctly for user pages [18:11:40] anyway, gotta go. will be back later for the archcom hour [18:11:44] k [18:11:52] that's in 3 hours, btw [18:12:32] what's the topic? [18:13:24] uh... good question, actually [18:15:56] robla: didn't we pick an rfc for discussion today? I can't seem to find anything [18:16:50] DanielK_WMDE: no, per my email on Monday and my comment on the Phab event [18:16:56] * robla goes to look up the Phab event [18:17:40] Phab event: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/E67 [18:19:19] robla: thanks, didn't find the event on phab.-.. is there an easy way to find the next upcoming event? [18:20:01] oh, the mail doesn't have "rfc" in the title, so i didn't see it. [18:20:12] DanielK_WMDE: at the top of this it says: "Recurrence of Event 1 of E66: RFC Meeting on #wikimedia-office IRC channel" [18:20:34] DanielK_WMDE: so you ignore mail from me unless it has "RfC" in the title? :-P [18:21:17] robla: i ignore wikitech-l unless it looks particularly relevant to me, yes [18:21:54] i probably should read it all, but... [18:23:20] robla: i can find E66 from E67, but not the other way around (apart from your comment). Would be nice if the base recurrent event would show the upcoming "instances"... [18:23:21] DanielK_WMDE: I sent email directly to "daniel.kinzler@wikimedia.de" with the subject "Postpone RfC meeting this week for Gerrit Cleanup Day?" [18:24:12] DanielK_WMDE: yes, it would be nice. Could you fix that up? [18:24:20] robla: uh. so you did. and it's marked as read. my appologies, *that* shouldn't happen. [18:24:38] robla: heh, sure, in my copious free tine ;) [18:25:08] DanielK_WMDE: I don't exactly have a lot of free time myself, especially since I'm working "part time" right now [18:25:28] ...and my mails are not getting answered :-P [18:26:04] yea, i didn't mean for you to implement that. i was hoping you know some magic place to check or something [18:26:30] anyway, i should get out of the office so i'm back online in time for the archcom meeting [18:26:41] :-) sounds like a plan [18:56:03] eyoung: It appears you won't have to play bad cop. [19:57:21] YAY!!! [20:02:51] how we could set this up [20:41:32] robla: heh, i was waiting for the meeting only to realise *now* it's not happening :) [20:41:48] * mobrovac could have realised it sooner [21:43:51] mobrovac: sorry! I think our planning for next week is looking a lot clearer. [21:44:08] * robla realizes mobrovac might already be in bed by now [21:44:24] not yet not yet [21:44:31] np robla :) [21:45:25] we discussed scheduling next week. I think T90914 is our top candidate now. See https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/E68#761 [22:03:36] kk thnx robla