[19:51:33] 10 min until we start the tech talk [19:51:36] info in topic [19:53:02] * greg-g waves [20:01:37] o/ [20:02:38] o/ [20:02:48] is the sound OK for the remote people? [20:03:06] yes [20:03:13] great [20:13:09] But LTR people still hold the magnifying glass in their right hand, why flip it? Similarly, does the edit pencil flip? [20:17:29] dynosaur: are the slides somewhere I can load locally? it's a bit hard to see the details. [20:18:01] np, if they are not, yet. I can follow with some more effort, dynosaur. :-) [20:18:12] I don't have them - but I will try to get them after the talk [20:18:19] thanks dynosaur. [20:19:40] Is the question mark on the "How are you" slide in Hebrew correct? [20:19:57] I expected it to flip. [20:20:31] aah! Moriel is just explaining it. :-) [20:21:25] MaxSem said "nothing good" and then "told you" [20:23:18] are the individual words in Hebrew also LTR, or is it just numbers? [20:23:34] I just noticed the description of the YouTube feed that says: "IRC: #office-wikimedia". hah. [20:24:34] haha, that was a mistake... although I guess I funny one ;) [20:26:26] spagewmf: Words in Hebrew are internally RTL, while numbers are internally LTR. That's part of the problem [20:26:48] it's like german! drei-und-zwanzig! [20:26:58] Apparently people who hand-write Hebrew and Arabic write text right-to-left but numbers left-to-right, and so they have to reserve space for each number [20:27:57] ha! [20:28:56] are Israeli chip designs little-endian or big-endian? [20:29:11] spagewmf: such a troll :) [20:31:10] comment from the audience: "someone has to be held accountable for this" [20:31:29] in MaxSem's voice, so, "accountable" is a really scary word [20:31:41] :D [20:32:17] This is a great talk. [20:32:46] ): [20:32:47] totally agree with you guillom. It's addressing all my problems typing in Persian. :D [20:33:45] :) [20:34:17] ah! username! each time i sign in fawiki, I'm scared to see what comes out of the parenthesis. [20:35:51] MaxSem: love the bureaucratic passive voice. Who's going to do the holding? :-) "Mistakes were made" [20:36:15] * MaxSem plays the Imperial March [20:37:18] When I was editing RTL wikis to add images, I would just copy/paste the whole line because the whole [[]] thing would drive me mad. [20:38:25] I'm confused whether people or computers insert those Unicode order marks. [20:38:25] touch-typing is actually detrimental here ;) [20:38:33] are you reading from bottom to top for the soft wrapped sentences? [20:40:03] spagewmf: People do, to override the computers' guesses [20:40:14] MaxSem is having a lot of fun. ;-) [20:41:24] Questions? [20:41:34] I will ask them for you [20:41:51] mic trouble, one second [20:42:04] * legoktm claps [20:42:04] RoanKattouw_away: are there compose keys for them, or do users copy and paste them? [20:42:11] dynosaur: for RTL, are you reading from bottom to top for the soft wrapped sentences? [20:42:13] No questions, but applause *palc palc* [20:42:17] dynosaur: solve the internet is hard. :-) I'd love to hear what Moriel thinks are some of the steps we can/should take to start addressing this problem more systematically. [20:42:20] will ask [20:42:22] people had some questions in chat earlier [20:42:23] But LTR people still hold the magnifying glass in their right hand, why flip it? Similarly, does the edit pencil flip? [20:42:24] both [20:42:30] *esualppA* ! [20:42:46] MatmaRex: I'm here I'll ask that [20:43:06] (other questions were answered, i think) [20:43:25] S next and then I will ask yours leila [20:43:50] anyone else after leila ? [20:43:59] Great talk. :) [20:44:14] dynosaur: thanks! [20:44:31] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boustrophedon ! [20:44:46] no problem :) [20:45:01] spagewmf: Sorry when I said people, I meant engineers for the most part :) [20:46:00] hallo [20:46:00] We can't hear that last question. [20:46:05] couldn't* [20:46:06] RTL [20:46:07] flag of Iran is officialy not flippable :) [20:46:16] guillom: it was "solve the internet is hard. :-) I'd love to hear what Moriel thinks are some of the steps we can/should take to start addressing this problem more systematically." [20:46:24] here's an alphabet that gets as close as possible to "bottom to top": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanun%C3%B3'o_alphabet [20:46:36] Oh the one from Santhosh - Moriel repeated it [20:46:44] ah ok :) [20:46:47] (I'm not familiar with anything that is more bottom-to-top than Hanunó'o [20:46:55] he just made a quick comment [20:47:10] Last chance for questions ! [20:47:12] dannyh: here's the Hebrew keyboard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_keyboard [20:47:27] Doner! [20:47:28] There is also older Chinese writing (and signs advertising e.g. restaurants sometimes) that is top-to-bottom, right-to-left (so the characters are written in columns, going from top to bottom, and then when the text wraps you add another column to the left of it) [20:47:29] *Done [20:47:52] Thanks everyone! [20:47:56] Thank you, dynosaur and Moriel. [20:47:56] great talk :) :) [20:47:57] it's actually the same as the US keyboard, and it's defined in the relevant Israeli standard as based on the US English keyboard, but with Hebrew characters added [20:47:59] thanks! [20:48:01] Thank you so much for the great talk! :-) [20:48:17] anyone else wants to do a tech talk get in touch with me :) [20:48:18] very nice, thanks! [20:49:16] RoanKattouw_away: I'm not usre about Chinese, but Japanese is very commonly written top to bottom right to left to this day, [20:49:20] definitely in books [20:49:24] but probably not online [20:49:43] I saw many modern Japanese books going top to bottom right to left [20:49:48] but some go just left to right [20:50:05] I guess that people who know Japanese figure it out somehow [20:51:58] american sign language is written top-to-bottom [20:52:19] https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ase/AS10011S10019S2e804S2e84cS1dc50S1dc58S26506S26512M550x567S10011502x433S10019479x441S2e804509x467S2e84c483x475S1dc58471x537S1dc50506x537S26506535x552S26512450x552 [20:52:26] (yes, that's an actual page name, don't ask) [20:52:54] browser support for top-to-bottom text is a lot worse than right-to-left, though :) [20:55:28] MatmaRex, whoa. [20:56:01] is your brain wasn't sufficiently messed up after the talk… ;) [20:57:41] MatmaRex, it's kind of ironic, because the "A Wikimedia Project" and "Powered by MediaWiki" are the only things that look right (and also make sense from a top-to-bottom layout since they're arranged that way). [20:58:41] aharoni, does Hanunó'o really write bottom-to-top but read left-to-right? [20:58:53] That implies they're mentally laying it out the whole thing ahead of time [21:10:44] matt_flaschen: sorry, I don't know more details [21:10:55] AFAIK, they turn the page around... or something. [21:14:38] aharoni, ah. Very interesting regardless.