[17:49:33] Hello, lovely people. [17:49:47] Hello! [17:49:58] Also, hello Deskana. ;-) [17:52:44] I'll be IRCer today. [18:01:20] Okie-dokie. [18:01:26] I think we'll be starting quite soon. [18:01:53] Adam W. (awight|afk) is leading today. [18:02:27] And we're off. [18:02:54] If your video/audio isn't working, please say so. [18:03:04] _o/ [18:03:07] works here [18:03:13] Stream working great so far. [18:03:26] lookin' good from NC [18:03:57] haha I <3 awight [18:04:05] 10! [18:04:14] andrewbogott, how did i beat you? i thought you were around before me. [18:04:19] Congrats, brion. [18:04:25] brion, 10! :) [18:04:33] Congratulations, anniversary group. :) [18:04:44] thank you! [18:04:50] subbu: I was contractor for quite a while first, I think anniversaries are since I went captive [18:05:12] Yes, sorry, congratulations everyone. Mostly us for having such wonderful people with whom to work. :-) [18:05:21] andrewbogott, ah, that makes sense. [18:05:49] Just an FYI, this IRC feed is currently being projected on one of the screens in the office [18:06:25] Hello SF. [18:07:04] Hello Wikimedia [18:15:18] The Christmas bump is pretty interesting. But makes total sense [18:16:03] Yeah. I'd say that it's not just people getting new phones, but also people not being at work. [18:16:20] Yeah. [18:16:51] WMF should reconsider https requirement in China [18:17:10] It's not practical and there's no win [18:17:24] James_F: and class [18:17:37] Ed17: "Work" including school and university, yeah. [18:17:49] Well, HTTPS means they can't pick and choose what to block. [18:19:02] Non-copyright alteration/takedown are most common? That's interesting. [18:19:08] I guess that's because of a lot of bogus requests. [18:19:46] many people think we are a search engine. [18:19:54] BrillLyle: Would you like to ask that as a question? [18:20:00] A friend of mine lives in a bit of the world where HTTPS is banned, so the government can snoop on every packet; every incoming computer, drive etc. is scanned encryption, VPN software etc. and blocked. [18:20:13] (If so, poke it to James_F.) [18:20:36] James_F, do you know what they think about the HTTPS China issue? [18:20:39] @tzatziki -- no, sorry. it was just a comment. I don't think it would be helpful [18:20:45] It's a pretty big issue [18:20:53] Thanks! [18:20:58] BrillLyle: oh, absolutely. :) [18:21:02] matt_flaschen: The friend thinks we're right to use HTTPS; they're not in China, though. [18:21:27] just to be clear, the Chinese Wikipedia was blocked in China even before the switch to HTTPS-only [18:21:39] "Right" to be forgotten is awful. Don't understand how democracies can think it's okay to suppress truthful information that's a matter of public record. [18:21:46] Iran has some similar situation [18:21:50] Yes, I don't imagine making it HTTP would do much. [18:21:51] E.g. government documents. [18:22:01] strangely only commons and hewiki is blocked [18:22:01] Amir1: Yeah. [18:22:10] Huh. Interesting. [18:22:44] lol [18:23:02] lol! [18:23:23] :))) [18:24:33] Props to the community for continuing to respect copyright. [18:25:15] ...also, we saw evidence that the switch to HTTPS-only made articles accessible that were previously URL-blocked (and there have been plans to research this effect more) https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research_talk:HTTPS_Transition_and_Article_Censorship [18:25:22] such a low copywrite takedown request rate suggests a very high false positive rate [18:25:26] for copywrite violations [18:25:34] (claps) [18:25:49] HaeB: Well would make sense. Its impossible to block only specific urls with https [18:25:52] echo [18:25:58] echo [18:25:59] argh echoing from joady [18:26:00] echo [18:26:02] brendan_campbell: ^^ [18:26:02] massive echo [18:26:09] yeah lots of echo [18:26:20] please turn off the mic in the room :) [18:26:27] delphine: "the". [18:26:31] Better now? [18:26:33] No. [18:26:36] no still echoing [18:26:39] maybe lagged [18:26:41] there [18:26:42] yes, better [18:26:42] better now [18:26:43] Great now [18:26:43] Good now [18:26:43] the URL of the transparency report https://transparency.wikimedia.org/ [18:26:43] ah better [18:26:44] better [18:26:44] better now [18:26:45] Thank you! [18:26:46] thank you :) [18:26:47] seems better now, thanks [18:26:47] There, yes. [18:26:47] good now :) thank you [18:26:47] no, still echoey [18:26:49] Lag caught up. [18:26:50] yes! [18:27:03] HaeB: Thank you. [18:27:04] thanks brendan_campbell :) [18:27:05] :) thx [18:27:16] I'm getting Echo again. [18:27:22] * Risker notes that"Summer" report for transparency report is...global-north centric? How about Q3-4 of 2015-16... [18:27:28] 95% wow [18:27:30] Sorry, technical workaround requires me to baby sit the echo cancellation [18:27:44] Risker: We intentionally try to avoid using cryptic terms like "Q3" though. :-) [18:27:56] Risker: Say no to (confusing) quarters. Months instead please :) [18:27:59] well, it's winder in Rio [18:28:04] *winter [18:28:19] I agree August is better than Summer [18:28:23] Q3 has been making me go crazy. [18:28:25] such a low copywrite takedown request rate suggests a very high false positive rate -> It mostly suggests that volunteers take down copyright violations, rather than Legal. [18:28:34] or just January-June 2016 report [18:28:43] are you in a Q3 Delphine? [18:28:47] isn't it actually Q1? :P [18:28:57] way ahead of me [18:28:59] JonKatz: IMO "false positive" is a very charitable term for "abuse" [18:29:01] ;) [18:29:11] effeietsanders, no...the WMF fiscal year is July 1 to June 30 [18:29:17] I'm in Q3 yes. Well, depending on what hat I'm wearing :) [18:29:23] This is why the only appropriate use of Q are: 1. Wikidata and 2. Star Trek. [18:29:32] :) [18:29:35] uses* [18:29:35] guillom: hehe [18:29:39] And "Paper Towns". [18:29:51] Risker: just pointing out how confusing Q1/3 is indeed ;) [18:29:54] guillom: Can we start making WD entities for each quarter then? [18:30:07] RoanKattouw, abuse by the community? That's not what I've seen. I don't follow it anymore, but when I was involved in that kind of thing, I saw community members be conservative about copyright, but not bogus deletions. [18:30:29] And on some aspects they're not that conservative. E.g .they are very happy to use 'simple geometric shapes' to claim logos are trademarked but not copyrighted. [18:30:32] I really want to have the slides embedded rather than full screen. Is that an exisiting feature? Or the other way around, speaker embedded and slides full screen. Thumbnail style [18:30:45] pajz possibly, at the very least it suggests very tight community standards. what matt_flaschen says may be true [18:31:12] There is a process for undeleting things that are wrongly deleted. Haven't seen evidence of a pattern of bogus deletions. [18:31:19] gonna say it's likely the really strong community standards in this case [18:31:27] delphine: on BlueJeans? I don't know if that's possible. But it's a good idea! [18:31:30] The rest of the internet is quite lax, so some people may have unknowingly shifted their standards. [18:31:34] matt_flaschen: I don't think he means abuse by the community but by those filing inappropriate dmca's :) [18:31:37] I find "quarter of a year" a really useful unit of time, and I'm sad that our fiscal doesn't align with the calendar (months are an unhappy medium between quarter and week) [18:31:49] a lot of Qs. ;) [18:31:50] Also, it's important to distinguish Commons (which is only free content) and e.g. English Wikipedia (where fair use is allowed). [18:31:54] delphine: Not with our current solution [18:31:56] Months also need to be translated. [18:31:58] tzatziki: I find focusing on the presentation makes you less likely to engage. [18:31:59] matt_flaschen When google has 1000s of requests a day and we have a handful a year, it suggests we could loosen up...it might be worth getting more requests and people could relax a little more. [18:32:02] guillom: 3. James Bond [18:32:06] delphine: I agree. [18:32:37] JonKatz, that would shift work from the community onto Legal, and result in more risk of things suddenly getting deleted due to an outside actor. [18:32:45] JonKatz: I think that misses the point, we don't have strict copyright standards becuase we are worried about being sued [18:33:02] Seems more unpredictable (what will the copyright holder do?), questionable legally, and without a clear final win. [18:33:06] We have strict copyright standards for ideaological reasons [18:33:13] urandom: Of course. How could I miss that one. Especially now that Ben Whishaw plays it. [18:33:19] gotta bow out, I want to listen to NEW READERS! :) [18:33:27] bawolff: Well, eh. That's not entirely true. See for example Commons's worries about getting sued for hosting MP4 files when MPEG LA has said it won't. [18:33:35] If you're used to having fair use everywhere, that might be strange. But it means we're not vulnerable on Commons to fair use ambiguity (the only way to know is to get sued and win), but can still take advantage of fair use on projects that choose to. [18:33:35] bawolff: But yes. [18:33:46] New Readers it [18:33:57] JonKatz, "we" are getting tons of requests. It's just that if you try to get in touch with "Wikipedia", you end up talking to the community (i.e., mostly OTRS volunteers) unless you try really hard. [18:34:02] *is an interesting project! [18:34:20] Well, the MPEG LA has slightly different arguments around it then normal media copyright [18:34:41] brendan_campbell: the voice sometimes drops, not very frequently, so I get everything. I checked with few people and this seems to be a problem from the office. can you look into it when you get a chance? [18:34:43] bawolff: Totally. [18:35:03] Not to mention community opinion is hardly unified on either of those two issues [18:35:04] leila: It's probably just people not speaking perfectly into the mic? [18:35:14] James_F: correct [18:35:20] it happened for both Toby and Abbey. hmm. [18:35:24] There would be plenty of people happy if we could host wikipedia on the moon and ignore all earthly laws [18:35:37] bawolff: wikimedia.is beckons. [18:35:38] (Except for the latency...) [18:35:42] less dropping for Abbey though [18:35:52] +1 to moon [18:36:07] damn speed of light :P [18:36:10] bawolff, there's a project for that: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_to_the_Moon [18:36:12] If we all move to the moon too, the latency would be fine [18:36:13] but actually longer drops milimetric in her case, when it happens. there was one 35 sec ago. ;) [18:36:24] James_F: it sounds more like the connection is interrupted shortly [18:36:24] but which moon? [18:36:26] right, agreed [18:36:27] anyhow, not stopping me from listening, just saying. [18:36:44] matt_flaschen, that's for a static copy though, not hosting location ;) [18:36:50] connection seems to drop, partly roboty voice for a split second then drop for a bit [18:37:06] The New Readers project brought up some really interesting insights on e.g. Data usage and cost [18:37:19] tzatziki: Don't scoop Abbey. :-) [18:37:20] Never really considered it would be such a massive barrier. [18:37:31] James_F: she just discussed it :) [18:37:40] quiddity, sure, for phase 1. [18:38:11] quiddity: Clearly I should ask my friend who launches cubeSats into orbit if we can have one. :-) [18:38:37] James_F, are you taking questions this time? [18:38:49] halfak: Yes! [18:38:50] None passed up so far though. [18:39:38] James_F, Q for Abbey: Your results suggest that English has already gained dominance, so who focus on non-English in these areas? Who/what are we missing by not focusing on other languages? [18:40:00] tzatziki: That came up a lot indeed! With the phone surveys we did in the Global Reach team complementing the project, lots of folks talked about affordability as a barrier. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_Reach/India_survey#For_those_users_with_some_interest.2C_what_was_the_biggest_barrier [18:40:01] James_F: question for Abbey for whenever we ask questions, please: How did we choose these specific countries to study versus all the other countries? What was the line of reasoning there? [18:40:04] Thanks. [18:40:10] halfak: s/who focus/why focus/ ? [18:40:30] Yeah, what Adam asked. [18:40:31] +1 awight|afk, James_F, plz sed [18:40:34] Kk. [18:40:51] jorgevargas: yeah! It's totally privilege talking, but never thought the data might be prohibitively priced. [18:41:29] Clarification from when I was talking to Abbey about this: people install apps at shops because downloading apps over the air costs so much data [18:41:39] halfak: I don't think we can conclude that, imo. For the majority of these countries, English is the general language, if not one of the official ones. [18:41:45] free wifi - makes sense [18:41:54] ^ yeah what RoanKattouw said, a finding that's really interesting. [18:42:11] debt: Not just free wifi; the shopkeeper has the app on a computer/flashdrive/something, and loads it onto the phone using a USB cable or similar [18:42:17] leila, not concluding this. I want to hear Abbey's answer to the question [18:42:19] halfak: and in general your question is important, since language will impact cultural changes heavily. [18:42:21] RoanKattouw oh! wow... [18:42:25] Exactly [18:42:26] No internet connection required (except when the shopkeeper originally downloaded the app at some point) [18:42:26] Sideloading [18:42:27] halfak: yes, got it. [18:42:42] :) [18:42:44] There's a Wikipedia article on it. [18:42:47] so..the app could be quite old too? maybe not updating often? [18:42:51] So that also explains why as a customer you just give the shopkeeper your phone and say "just put a bunch of stuff on here" [18:42:53] (Because of course there is!) [18:42:58] leila: regions were selected based on a few factors. We wanted to have a representative country for Asia, Africa, and Latin/South America respectively. Then we ranked countries by population and internet access growth rates. [18:43:05] the store thing is also about curation/expertise. They are considered experts [18:43:11] Yeah [18:43:18] halfak: BTW, your question seems to imply that we are not focussing on languages other than English; is that the reading I'm meant to have from it? [18:43:20] debt: Yep. China often lags behind on Android Wikipedia app versions because they're getting them from Chinese sources that don't sync with Google Play. [18:43:21] makes sense, Zack__, thanks! [18:43:25] Q (sorry if i missed it): were the interviews typically with English speakers? And City vs Countryside etc? [18:43:30] So you get the "starter pack" or something. [18:43:48] debt: When someone eventually uploads an up-to-date APK, it tends to filter through the third-party app stores pretty fast and people update then. [18:43:49] *link bot* https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/New_Readers/Findings [18:43:50] more here (High pop, high internet, low wiki-use) -> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/New_Readers#Priority_countries [18:43:51] effeietsanders: There's a bunch more data on meta if we don't get the questions. [18:44:05] effeietsanders: methodology can be found on the New Readers page on meta [18:44:13] James_F, no not intended. [18:44:28] and of course, Deskana and RoanKattouw we have no idea how often the shops update THEIR apps and then how often the users get the new versions of the apps [18:44:40] I guess I meant to ask "What would we be missing if ..." [18:44:46] halfak: Ah, right. [18:45:07] debt: we can estimate that by looking at our data per country [18:45:21] Re the store as curator of offline content to distribute, similar phenomenon in Cuba - super interesting article FWIW: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/23/cuba-offline-internet-weekly-packet-external-hard-drives [18:45:27] but then what does it drive us to, halfak? :) [18:45:29] Thanks, AbbeyRipstra. This is really important work. [18:45:29] debt: Yeah I guess there's two levels of indirection, the shop getting the new version and the customer going to the store. Unless people do do OTA updates but I doubt that [18:45:36] nuria_ do we track versions of the apps by country? [18:45:43] debt: We can track update rates by looking at user agents; the app's user agent tells us what version they're using. [18:45:45] leila, ?? I don't understand [18:45:45] effeietsanders: eg here: https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/New_Readers/Findings/India [18:45:55] debt: Then if you do geolocation on the IPs, you can get a country-level breakdown by version. [18:45:56] halfak: reacting to Toby's comment, halfak. :) [18:46:00] The second half of my question wasn't answered :( [18:46:01] Not sure if effeietsanders's question is answered? [18:46:05] debt: Deskana has it [18:46:13] Oh! I saw the message before I heard toby [18:46:24] coolio, nuria_ and Deskana ...interesting findings [18:46:25] debt: is no difference than knowing what version of FF do they use most in the US [18:46:33] James_F: i'm searching through meta [18:46:55] It's under "Methodology and participants" [18:46:57] debt: w/o UA data we cannot operate and apps version is part of UA data [18:47:17] I don't think it's especially detailed tho? [18:47:29] James_F: if there is time, just ask effeietsanders' question, please. it's easier to get an answer here for the rest of us, too. :) [18:47:35] James_F, could you ask the second part of my question again? I feel like it was missed in the PC-ness of ack'ing that "We're not just going to focus on English" [18:47:38] ? [18:47:43] Oh, yeah, it is [18:47:47] brendan_campbell, volume is suddenly a lot (~30%?) lower, for all mics. [18:47:48] James_F: so far unable to find if there was a convenience bias for languages spoken by interviewees [18:48:10] effeietsanders: they deliberately got interviews in India locally [18:48:10] What are we missing by focusing on English is an important thing to have a deep knowledge of. [18:48:12] IMO [18:48:16] Oh, she's saying it now [18:48:18] Heh [18:48:57] For what it's worth, reboot's site makes it really hard to tell what it is they actually do [18:49:02] For New Readers fieldwork in India more than 40% of conversations happened in Hindi, think 5% were in Tamil, remaining in English [18:49:43] In Nigeria, nearly all were in English. But the interviewees were often native Yoruba-speakers. [18:49:58] "Periurban" = on the perimeter of urban [18:50:02] For Mexico over 80% of them were done in Spanish, having some of us work as translators. [18:50:09] quiddity: turned off echo cancellation auto mixer because it was over correcting, [18:50:14] halfak: Is the second half of your question "Who/what [would] we [be] missing by not focusing on other languages?" [18:50:19] Zack__: hm, yeah, so then i could imagine that the people more comfortable with English could be more likely to be asked for the interview, hence :) [18:50:21] just bossted the gain a little bit, sorry for the inconvienence [18:50:28] anyway, thanks - it clarified a bit :) [18:50:34] James_F, Yeah, Thanks [18:51:01] halfak: THat's a hypothetical question about a negated hypothetical, though… I doubt you'll get a useful answer. [18:51:03] halfak, these are not recommendations, they are findings [18:51:03] inconvenience* [18:51:22] Lol you guys are describing research to me :P [18:51:32] But yeah, I don't think it's hypothetical [18:51:39] We decide where to put resources all of the time [18:51:47] We should know why we put resources where we do [18:52:01] Arguably we do fail to focus on non-english in a lot of ways [18:52:22] (btw, the sound is stuttering a bit more again for me - not sure if it's me) [18:52:28] Re-phased: "Who/what would we be missing were we to only focus on English, even though we've decided we won't do that?". Unless I'm missing something? [18:52:31] I figure that Abbey et al. has learned some real stories of things that would be missed in these contexts if only English was available. [18:52:33] (but still quite well possible to follow) [18:52:39] Re the phone surveys, Global Reach team is starting to post the results here [18:52:39] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_Reach/Insights [18:53:02] Woo, Toby. +1 to "you can't measure users you don't have." [18:53:09] halfak: it would be good to look at quantitative data from these countries as well. [18:53:10] :) [18:53:11] We're still consolidating results before posting some other results, so this is a work in progress. [18:53:15] jorgevargas: why not on the NR page? (We can link to it I guess) [18:53:36] halfak: we have some audience from these countries, it would be nice to complement these findings with what one can find from studying webrequest logs from these countries, for example. [18:53:56] * Risker scrolls back, laughs out loud that nobody had thought about data costs. I only started talking about it five years ago... [18:54:10] Risker: yeah yeah ;) [18:54:11] Risker: That's not what was said. [18:54:18] I said it. [18:54:26] Risker: One person said that they personally didn't consider it. [18:54:30] I hadn't thought about it. [18:54:33] Risker: Don't make false generalisations. :-) [18:54:36] +1 AbbeyRipstra and Toby, users we don't have do not compute right now on the analytics infrastructure, thank you for prioritizing this work and sharing these perspectives with us [18:54:48] tzatziki: Global Reach was working on the phone surveys parallel to the New Readers larger project we're also part of, but fully agree it will be great to cross-post these results there. We can do so once we finalize consolidating all results. [18:54:57] jorgevargas: nice! [18:55:27] Risker: but yes, others did. There's a whole team for that. [18:55:38] well, it was part of the reporting on research, James_F. And I've encountered that attitude on multiple occasions from WMF staff. [18:55:51] I'm just ignorant. (But getting better.) [18:56:37] regarding english as dominating language, see also https://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportPageViewsPerCountryBreakdown.htm [18:56:44] people are still stunned to find out I pay about 3-5x what the average American pays for comparatively poor mobile access [18:56:58] ...e.g. English Wp is 95.6% in India [18:57:15] leila, JoshM_ & James_F: It seems there's some reading into my questions. I'm not implying that we (1) should focus on just English or (2) do already focus on just English. [18:57:17] Risker: yeah, but do you deliberately seek out lower bandwidth browsers? [18:57:36] .. and 97.8% in Nigeria [18:57:40] ..however, much less in many other countries [18:57:50] HaeB: there's also the fact that English wp is like 50x bigger than Yoruba [18:57:51] Working on the ringing... [18:57:56] Or indeed Igbo or Hausa [18:58:11] ...i think everyone is aware that these are in-depth findings about a small set of countries, not about the whole world [18:58:17] halfak: it sounds like you should talk to Abbey out of the meeting. You have a point that is not being understood/said/transferred fully [18:58:17] compared to Europe & the developing world, US mobile data is really expensive [18:58:29] gwicke: alas [18:58:29] HaeB: That also relates a lot to the relevant content available in other local languages. Local content in local languages is not as massive as English, and people are missing out of the value of having other languages represented as well as they grow. [18:58:36] (Basically what Abbey just said :)) [18:58:45] leila, I have talked to Abbey outside of the meeting. I'm trying to give her an opportunity to give an answer to a question that I think is important [18:58:48] HaeB: yeah, there can be excellent research, which should just not be overinterpreted :) [18:58:52] tzatziki, not really. I simply don't use my phone for browsing unless I have no other choice. [18:58:55] This is more of a prompt than a question :P [18:58:59] I see, please continue, halfak then. ;) [18:59:27] Maybe there's better wording to tease out the prompt, yeah. [18:59:39] *sigh* [18:59:57] sorry all, I was timed out. Have I missed anything I can help direct? Think I saw a comment on Igbo and Hausa... [18:59:57] Risker: right, sure. But the lengths that users in NG go to to save on bandwidth is why it's so amazing to me. [19:00:00] Mexico: Spanish Wp 82.4%, English Wp 16.6% [19:00:01] or that readers feel that the English version is 'more correct'? [19:00:12] halfak: Given the delay I don't know what bit is sigh-worthy. [19:00:19] switching to the next thing. Thank you everyone. ciao. [19:00:21] halfak, it sounds like you're asking for an anecodote/stories from the field research, but that wasn't clear from the question. [19:00:27] (halfak, if it's any consolation, I thought your question asked here has been very clear from the get-go. :)) [19:00:32] jorgevargas: +1 [19:00:32] zack__: do we have data on awareness of other language wikis? [19:00:38] * halfak accepts all of the aggressive feedback and withdraws [19:00:43] hm, yeah, this 'expecting English' also strongly depends on the quality of the local wiki's i guess :) [19:00:52] thanks pajz [19:00:54] halfak, meant as constructive feedback. [19:00:56] thanks everyone! [19:01:00] * K4-713 eats desk [19:01:02] thanks! [19:01:02] Time to eat! [19:01:25] * Risker thinks that's a good idea [19:01:29] * bd808 gives K4-713 some catsup to help wash the desk down [19:01:33] tzatziki: as in did we assess how many internet users realized they are wikis in their local languages? [19:01:40] lol bd808 [19:01:45] zack__: yes [19:01:47] lol [19:01:49] Thanks to all the great presenters [19:01:52] And kf-713 [19:01:58] k4-713~ [19:02:00] I wish I was in the office and I could ask my own question. [19:02:02] bd808 is totally helpful. :) [19:02:04] Argh Type fail. [19:02:06] Maggie_Dennis: proper condiments are important. [19:02:11] Much easier to do a follow-up when you are at the mic.. [19:02:18] I know of few foods that aren't improved with ketchup. :) [19:02:30] Maggie_Dennis: K4 :) [19:03:27] halfak: it's even easier in a one-on-one ;) [19:03:35] halfak: that was frustrating to watch. Seeing my own questions annotated on etherpads, I have come to think the English language has a variable fidelity based on the audience size. [19:03:48] effeietsanders, as I said, AbbeyRipstra and I have already talked about this one on one. [19:03:50] But thanks [19:04:03] halfak: yeah :) I know [19:04:13] so if you ask something in a room of 200 people, it needs to be very simple to come across well [19:04:26] effeietsanders, So why prod me about it? [19:04:29] if you ask something one-on-one, there seems to be much more room for nuance [19:04:45] halfak: to encourage you to keep doing that :) [19:05:47] yeah, I respect that you tried to get that point across, but maybe next time work with AbbeyRipstra to incorporate it in the presentation [19:05:48] delphine: I will look into picture in picture solutions [19:05:52] effeietsanders, right now, I'm not in the best place to be encouraged to so something differently. Being criticized and marginalized in front of an audience kind of whacks you out of sorts. It comes across as "you should have done it this other way from the beginning" [19:06:19] milimetric, with all fairness, I think I'll keep asking hard questions -- especially when I think the presenter has a good answer that people should hear. [19:06:42] I think I should be able to ask hard questions and the cost of being misunderstood should be minimal since we can recover. [19:06:43] but we all love and respect you, halfak, this isn't meant as criticism, just thinking out loud to help each other have productive meetings [19:08:08] milimetric, but the effect is that I'll think twice before asking my next question. [19:08:18] halfak, please do. It was a very legitimate and straightforward question that certainly deserves a wide audience. [19:08:35] Maybe the question's flaws don't deserve this level of discussion and critique. [19:08:45] lol [19:08:59] I thought you asked a good question, halfak. Both times ;) [19:11:37] Thanks J-Mo. [19:25:02] So, I lost my youtube stream right at the opportune moment to hear the re-asking of the question. Now that I've heard Abbey's response, I think it is great! I think the question was delivered in a bit of a weird way, but Abbey recovered and answered the question I intended to ask. [19:25:11] So thanks AbbeyRipstra :)