[17:50:11] Hey everyone. [17:52:18] It's time for May's Metrics meeting. [17:52:30] We'll be starting in just under 10 minutes' time. [17:52:53] I'll be the IRC facilitator. [17:53:50] You can see the agenda at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_metrics_and_activities_meetings [18:00:40] OK, looks like we're starting. [18:00:56] If you have any A/V issues please shout them out so that brendan_campbell can look into them! [18:01:18] Is there a youtube link? [18:01:26] pnorman: In the /topic. [18:01:34] pnorman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOaiU-v7PbE [18:01:56] \o/ [18:02:07] thanks for the link James! [18:03:46] so far so good on A/V via Youtube :) [18:05:56] Speaking now is Amir Aharoni [18:07:16] hah ordering issue is a thing ya [18:09:39] niiiiiice [18:10:13] Not sure why this assigned me a guest. (This is Melody Kramer) Here's a blog post on this topic: https://blog.wikimedia.org/2018/03/08/compact-language-links-launch/ [18:11:34] Way too complicated. We need a tool for configuring this in your personal preferences. [18:12:01] Guest27655: freenode irc server had a hiccup a couple days ago, you'll have to change your nick back if still logged in. (you can poke at NickServ manually, or just disconnect / reconnect to freenode from the gear icon next to 'freenode' on the irccloud panel, and it should be fine) [18:12:05] schneeschmelze: Do you want to phrase that as a question? :) [18:12:21] brion: ah, good point :) [18:12:28] Thanks brion! [18:12:52] :) [18:13:02] wooo shout-out to esperanto my silly language i like ;) [18:13:06] tzatziki: Yah. ;) Could we please have a tool to configure the language links you prefer in your account preferences -- for all wikimedia projects, please? ;) -- How is this? ;) [18:13:20] James_F: ^ Work for you? :P [18:13:33] schneeschmelze: That's more a Phabricator request, not a question for the speaker. :-) [18:13:50] Guest27655: hmm, guess it didn't pick up your nick sorry ;_; [18:13:56] lemme find the instructions [18:14:11] I have them! (Carry on!) [18:14:15] :D [18:14:21] great :D [18:14:37] James_F: If you want to take it to Phabricator, you're welcome. I'm into making suggestions for improvements. The speaker might like to explain why such a tool still isn't there? [18:14:44] schneeschmelze: I'll ask about why there's not an explicit set of preferences beyond Babel boxes, if that's OK? [18:15:01] hm, explicit prefs would be handy. always hard to make a good ui for these things :D [18:15:03] James_F: Yes, that's okay, Thanks! [18:15:26] yet more preferences! ;) [18:15:43] prefs on prefs on prefs [18:15:56] link to the reportcard? [18:15:57] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Most_wanted_articles_across_languages [18:15:59] it's prefs all the way down [18:16:21] Thanks, foks. [18:16:38] Wikimedia-L email - https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2018-May/090376.html [18:16:42] There cannot be too many prefs after all. ;) [18:16:53] James_F: from Dario via YouTube: "do we have a property in Wikidata for these language aliases from this source?" [18:16:58] Global preferences is a preference about preferences. [18:17:13] Dario continues, "Wikidata aliases seem a poor fit for this, because they are unstructured and don't support provenance" [18:18:05] brendan_campbell: Can you disable YouTube questions so that people don't fork the conversation? ;-) [18:18:47] James_F: it's possible, but more of a question for Comms! [18:18:48] +1, the forking is quite regrettabl [18:19:00] (Will ask Dario's question, though I don't know if I understand it.) [18:19:07] I thought it was initially disabled? Who made the change to enable? [18:19:11] FWIW, the barrier to youtube questions is much lower than getting on IRC [18:19:17] ^ yeah, this [18:19:25] A bit meta tho :) [18:19:40] The barrier to having an effective discussion with two sets of questions is very high, though. [18:19:49] Meh. We don't get that many questions. [18:20:50] Now speaking ... well, Katherine Maher :) [18:21:04] for some one in the room: please tell "Amir he aced his presentation" :]]]]] [18:21:21] hashar: Will do. [18:21:21] +1! James had to stop me clapping so loud. [18:21:44] tzatziki: Only because you were the only one still clapping, and I was going deaf. :-) [18:21:45] tzatziki: chicken and egg? ;) and in any case it's also about the conversation among people (apart from the official questions) [18:22:04] +1, really, interesting stuff from Amir and the language team, and very well presented. [18:22:19] HaeB: yes, the two discussions is bad, but combining questions into a "questions" block at the end is possible. [18:25:32] YouTube questions - if manageable - seems like a good thing to keep on. The meeting is increasingly focused at the broader community - who are over time less likely to use IRC from what we are seeing. If managing the YouTube questions is a challenge, I think the preference would be to address that challenge than turn off a channel for questions from people who are less tech-savvy. [18:26:00] +1 [18:26:06] varnent: Then we should stop having IRC questions? Having both is problematic. [18:26:28] As long as we have someone to, say, facilitate them ... :P [18:26:30] james_f: let's talk offline about it - I am unclear why keeping both is a problem [18:26:33] you're all assuming nobody's on slack right now too :) [18:26:52] Right - lol - there are actually multiple places I'm monitoring for questions already :) [18:26:54] i don't mind multiple systems. same as we have wiki talk pages and mailing lists and a bug reporter [18:27:07] Whatsapp ! [18:27:14] varnent: offlist is fine. one issue is archiving for those who will read the discussions later. [18:27:14] the important part is making sure they're funneled to the person who can reply to them [18:27:19] Matrix! [18:27:22] slack is so enterprise [18:28:01] phase 2! \o/ [18:28:11] Yay! [18:28:32] brion: right - we have mostly been focused on making sure the discussion makes it way to the actual meeting as we were not able to find much of a base for reading the discussions - but if documenting them is an issue - open to that discussion. But yeah - my preference would be more channels than limiting channels - or if we do limit - limit it to the easiest one to use (which is probably YouTube). [18:28:52] leila: good point! [18:29:01] I saw that with the disclaimer that the group who manages Metrics has not discussed this topic - so that is just initial thoughts. :) [18:29:10] *I say that [18:29:23] varnent: again, i think it's wrong to see this only as an unidirectional "submit your question" channel... it's also the background conversation among people about the presentation [18:29:58] (back to A/V: is it just me or is the frame rate low?) [18:30:13] (picture quality is fine but it feels a little choppy. on youtube) [18:30:19] brion: it usually sits around 15fps [18:30:20] brion: I think mine is maxed at 30 fps, right? (human eye, I'm in person) [18:30:31] ah if it's 15 then that explains what i'm seeing. no worries then [18:30:38] greg-g: ;) [18:30:42] 720p@30ips here [18:30:47] yeah, pretty standard for streaming, would have to upgrade some equipment to get up to 30 [18:30:56] HaeB: Fair - although that takes place in many many places that we are not even in (like FB chats). So I think it is somewhat about which we monitor for questions. Monitoring all discussions around the meeting is very hard to do - unless it is with the goal to carry some into the meeting. If they are discussions with no intention of carrying into the meeting, I am not sure we need to monitor. In general, people are going to chat about things [18:30:56] where they are most comfortable doing so. I think for us the question is which of those do we actively monitor for questions. [18:30:58] greg-g: 37 but it depends on what (movement vs. colour vs. …) [18:30:58] over youtube [18:31:03] hashar: the encoder is up-sampling it to 30 [18:31:26] cool, just double-checking :D [18:31:35] i need to upgrade one of our capture cards to get both the slide deck and the camera content up to 30fps [18:31:43] varnent: you will get some resistance as using the web browser to connect to IRC is not really technically hard. :) https://webchat.freenode.net/ [18:32:12] leila: For many many many reasons, I am not getting into that debate. I am going off what end-users tell us. ;) [18:32:13] James_F: I'll just always keep katherine in the periphery of my vision to get the highest frame rate (I'm assuming, based on motion/predator detection) [18:32:27] positiveness ++ [18:32:28] brendan_campbell: i dont mind the slow frame rate really. The sound is absolutely perfect, I like having the slides taking 2/3 of the screen [18:32:44] brendan_campbell: really kudos on whatever magic needed to happen. I really enjoy the broadcast [18:32:52] yeah the layout with the slides is great! [18:32:52] thanks hashar i also think audio and slide content is the most important part of the stream [18:32:57] +1 [18:33:30] ooh working groups time [18:33:33] (Think of questions for Katherine, everyone!) [18:33:43] varnent: leila is an end-user too ;) [18:34:05] yes, this is a solid AV setup. we're past the 'this is hard to listen to / watch' era, it seems. that said, 30fps would be a nice improvement. [18:34:05] or did you mean comms conducted some more systematic user testing ? [18:34:23] HaeB: ;) and honestly, did we show the end users the web interface? ;) cuz sure, setting up a client on your machine can be hard, but web is easy. [18:34:24] * varnent not getting into a discussion on IRC usability - sorry [18:34:53] forcing people to have and use an google / youtube account is also exclusionary [18:35:11] This feels like a discussion that should happen elsewhere. [18:35:13] hence why I'd personally prefer not to limit to just one channel - as I said ;) [18:35:31] An on-wiki realtime chat system is the obvious solution. [18:35:45] varnent: fair enough, this is all a big topic that doesn't need to be solved today. but it seems that the metrics meeting could benefit from a little more systematic thinking about this [18:35:46] ragesoss: careful ;) [18:36:03] Yes - this is not the best time/place for a discussion on usability of IRC - as to monitoring for questions - I can confirm that Comms keeps an eye on at least three channels - and I will connect with JamesF about concerns over cross-channel monitoring :) [18:38:14] (Curious what the third channel is ... ) [18:38:23] IRC, YouTube, Slack [18:39:03] I have a question for Katherine: The GDPR has come into force. When will the WMF adjust its data protection policy to European standards? [18:39:07] IRC remains most active - hence why it has a dedicated facilitator. YouTube is catching up quick though [18:39:42] schneeschmelze: I can ask, but I imagine you won't get more of an answer than the ones from the lawyers already asked. [18:39:44] Good question schneeschmelze +1 on that [18:39:57] Note that literally all the lawyers are at an offsite today. [18:40:07] (previously planned, I promise) [18:40:14] James_F: Just ask her, please. This is really important. [18:40:16] would be nice to have a public faq we can point people to [18:40:23] James_F: TIA [18:40:24] so today is the only day when we can get straight answers, without the lawyers to get in the way! [18:40:30] James_F: Where are those answers? [18:40:32] (I joke) [18:40:38] even if the faq says "we say nothing" [18:41:28] James_F: Dario says please disregard the question he had earlier [18:41:31] schneeschmelze: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Privacy_policy has a fair amount of active discussion. There's also been discussion on mailing lists. But of course I will ask. [18:41:36] brendan_campbell: OK. [18:42:23] James_F: thanks for the link! [18:44:49] What about dogs?! [18:45:01] Poor, non-human dogs. [18:45:49] tzatziki: AIs is the next personhood/internet-built-for question :) [18:45:57] heh :D [18:46:12] I thought that's why we are building Wikidata. [18:46:23] ragesoss: For dogs? [18:46:24] Beep boop. [18:47:16] James_F: no, for AIs. although on the internet, no one knows... [18:47:37] Mice. It was mice ruling it all in the background. [18:47:39] I thought for a moment you were typing "Als". Like, people called Albert. [18:50:22] James_F: a general user profile would be a good idea, I think [18:50:24] "real user profile" *gasp* [18:51:38] It'd not be too hard (he says) to use Wikibase to let people have a very limited set of structured profile statements (languages, etc.) on their user pages. [18:51:48] Any other questions? [18:52:18] James_F: when will this new Wikibase profile system ship? [18:52:29] ragesoss: :-P [18:52:32] it's already shipped if you believe in it enough [18:52:43] * James_F mutters about MCR and development hell. [18:52:51] There are goats on this slide now?!? [18:52:57] goats?? [18:53:02] kitten-goats! [18:53:46] Wikilove to all the hackathon participants [18:53:55] Any WikiLove for passing on :D [18:54:13] WikiLove for Amir and the Language Team for fixing language links to make them easier to navigate. Also for helping us all to understand what articles people are looking for in various languages and not finding them [18:55:30] Wiki love for Katherine sharing about the talks and conversations she has been having with people and organizations around the world [18:56:06] :D amir++ [18:56:32] Thanks everyone! [18:56:39] thank you all. [18:56:45] \o/ [18:56:53] Thanks James for keeping an eye out here! [18:57:12] that was great. thank you! [18:57:55] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikimedia_Hackathon_2018_showcase_-_Fon_Wikipedia_project_-05.jpg [19:02:23] Amir speaking to the local media about this project (in Catalan): http://www.ccma.cat/tv3/alacarta/telenoticies-migdia/barcelona-acull-la-trobada-anual-de-viquipedistes-darreu-del-mon/video/5766991/# [19:22:33] varnent: btw, which channel on slack? (for metrics questions) [19:22:38] varnent: which channel on slack btw? (for metrics meeting discussions) [19:23:22] HaeB: There has not been much activity - but for now I've been monitoring #General as I do not think an office hours channel is used yet [19:23:23] (gah, connectivity) [19:23:56] i see