[00:42:05] Weekly newsletter with the results of the voting process: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Abstract_Wikipedia/Updates/2020-11-17 [00:44:39] @vrandecic I think there's a misprint there In the section after "If Wikifunctions is to be eliminated". The next one says "With Wikicodex eliminated, the next round looks as this:", but it still has Wikicodex in (but Wikifusion out) [00:44:53] typo, indeed! [00:44:56] fixing [00:46:02] /me is a bit disappointed that it is Yet Another English-based Name, but oh well. The people have spoken 😊 [00:47:18] wow, is it already out? (re @wmtelegram_bot: Weekly newsletter with the results of the voting process: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Abstract_Wikipedia/Updates/2020-11-17) [00:47:47] oh well, we have the winners, let's hope Legal team will give us the green light soon [00:48:06] @jhsoby thanks for noticing! I checked the results and fixed it. Indeed it should have been Wikicodex eliminated [00:55:41] It's only English-based if you import it wholesale without translating it (re @jhsoby: /me is a bit disappointed that it is Yet Another English-based Name, but oh well. The people have spoken 😊) [00:57:28] I wonder if I should update https://notwikilambda.toolforge.org/wiki/Main_Page. “This is Not Wikilambda. The other wiki is also not Wikilambda.” ^^ [00:57:42] lol [00:58:31] :D [01:23:51] I suggest you should cross-post this to the Wikidata group too, @vrandecic 😊 (re @wmtelegram_bot: Weekly newsletter with the results of the voting process: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Abstract_Wikipedia/Updates/2020-11-17) [01:24:38] I was thinking of making a bigger announcement once legal is through with it [01:24:47] 👍 [01:24:49] until then it is preliminary, so no need for a big splash [01:31:42] out of curiosity, how are emoji coming across the bridge to IRC land? [01:32:23] in IRC, the smiley and the thumbs up emoji in jhsoby's last few messages looked good [01:34:42] even the vegans of direct messaging get their emoji, good to know! [01:40:55] obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1782/ [01:42:59] (●'◡'●) [02:07:38] Hmmm... Quiddity (WMF) did not like that I surround the two tallying by boxes in columns, and suppressed them, creating a long boring text to scroll down... I was just focusing an making the structure clear, and I don't see what was "non standard". Multicolumns layouts are standard even in Wikipedia, they are used for many lists, and list of references: they work very well and autoadapt to the display width, provided columns [02:07:39] As well they facilitate the reading of long paragraphs so they don't exceed about 40em where folowing lines is visually intensive. This is a common practive in all books and in the press to avoid long lines, and on screens, multilumns avoid excessive unused margins, so we get visually focused on the global structure without having to scroll down to have a complete view, they are a real helper for readers. [02:11:08] Note that for publications in East Asian scripts, either with complex glyhps like Han, or many very short words (like Vietnamese which also use many accents for the complex vocalic and tonal system), or without any space (e.g. Thai), the columns of text are even recommanded to be a bit narrower (about 30 em) than most other Indoeuropean, Semitic , African, or Autronesian scripts. [02:11:21] Note that for publications in East Asian scripts, either with complex glyhps like Han, or many very short words (like Vietnamese which also use many accents for the complex vocalic and tonal system), or without any space (e.g. Thai), the columns of text are even recommanded to be a bit narrower (about 30 em) than most other Indoeuropean, Semitic , African, or Autronesian scripts and languages. [02:11:37] Philippe, If you'd like to have a shorter width layout for yourself, then I encourage you to use the new Vector design, available from https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering by un-checking "Use Legacy Vector". Let's not discuss that here though to save everyone else the distracting pings. Thanks! [02:12:01] So I was concerned by accessibility. Unfortunately this is not understood by Wikimedia [02:13:15] "Legacy" or "New" Vector has no effect on this. This is general for all designs (on the web or not) [02:13:34] "Legacy" or "New" Vector has no effect on this. This is general for all designs (on the web or not) for clear rendering of text [02:16:25] Also these columns work perfectly as well with the new Vector. They do not cause accessibility problems (as this was incorrectly stated when they were used with "column-count", that I have NOT used as that is effectively not recommended; I've only used "column-width"). [02:16:57] Also these columns work perfectly as well with the new Vector. They do not cause accessibility problems (as this was incorrectly stated when they were used with "column-count", that I have NOT used as that is effectively not recommended; I've only used "column-width", just like Mediawiki itself for lists of references). [02:17:22] Also these columns work perfectly as well with the new Vector. They do not cause accessibility problems (as this was incorrectly stated when they were used with "column-count", that I have NOT used as that is effectively not recommended; I've only used "column-width", just like Mediawiki itself for lists of references generated by the " tag). [02:17:29] First Andre, and now Quiddity; when will your terror end??? [02:17:30] Also these columns work perfectly as well with the new Vector. They do not cause accessibility problems (as this was incorrectly stated when they were used with "column-count", that I have NOT used as that is effectively not recommended; I've only used "column-width", just like Mediawiki itself for lists of references generated by the " tag). [02:23:00] And anyway, the "new Vector" that forces a single "max-width" for the whole page content is very bad: lot of unnecessary margins for almost all pages and still not the accurate size based on actual content, and lines still too long for almost everything (unless the page is fullly loaded with floatting elements (illustrations, infoboxes) [02:23:47] The horses are already dying one by one; what shall you gain by striking them further? [02:23:48] And multilcolumn even don't break the mobile rendering on narow screens, where they have no effect [02:24:52] Who are you speaking about the causeof this "terror" ? Who are the "horses" ? [02:25:00] Who are you speaking about the cause of this "terror" ? Who are the "horses" ? [02:25:09] Please, let's remain polite (re @mahir256: First Andre, and now Quiddity; when will your terror end???) [02:25:48] And multilcolumn even don't break the mobile rendering on narrow screens, where they have no effect; their effect is on large screens [02:25:53] Philippe, this discussion is not related to Abstract Wikipedia. To avoid bothering the other people in this shared space, please discuss is with me onwiki or privately. Thank you for understanding! [02:27:09] It was on topic because you urged to remove this as if it was bad, and ignored my efforts to focus on accessiblity and to supprot the translation of the project and its indexing for gaining more users across cultures. [02:27:36] ^^^ (re @wmtelegram_bot: Philippe, this discussion is not related to Abstract Wikipedia. To avoid bothering the other people in this shared space, please discuss is with me onwiki or privately. Thank you for understanding!) [02:28:24] An it was on topic because this was removed exactly on these pages for this project [02:28:49] I wanted it to be a pleasant experience for everyone [02:32:22] I understand. Your edits are understood entirely in good faith. We can discuss the question whether to use multi column or not on wiki. Let me know the talk page, i also have an opinion. [02:34:55] I wanted it to be a pleasant experience for everyone, inependantly of the theme theyr have chosen in MediaWiki, or the device they use [02:35:11] On a different topic, I was really surprised to see, that Wikilambda lost to Wikimedia Functions once Wikifunctions was removed [02:35:39] The result of the voting mechanism really surprised me [02:36:14] I feel very meh about the result, but given that I didn't like five of the six proposals that's not exactly surprising [02:37:10] Nikki: if you did not like the names, you could have made your proposals and defened them early in talks before the 1st round. [02:37:28] Obligatory quote: "There are two hard things in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors." – Leon Bambrick (more notes at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Naming_things ) [02:38:56] I think a big part was played by Legal's opinion on names [02:39:03] @Quiddity: I count three hard things, not two. Is it the "off-by-one" error ? [02:39:04] not saying is a bad thing [02:39:31] that probably made us think more in terms of "let's find a viable name that can also be defended in court" [02:39:38] that's the joke (re @Philippe: @Quiddity: I count three hard things, not two. Is it the "off-by-one" error ?) [02:39:39] @Quiddity: I count three hard things, not two. Is it the "off-by-one" error ? Or a way to say we have noçthing to say about it? [02:39:50] @Quiddity: I count three hard things, not two. Is it the "off-by-one" error ? Or a way to say we have nothing to say about it? [02:41:31] sorry, I meant also the other department of which I don't remember the name [02:41:50] If the intent was to defend the project in courts, all would be named "Wikimedia XXX" and requiring names to be easily translatable would not have been a valid goal (even Wikipedia is not well protected internationally because it is translated and difficult to protect in all its variants!) [02:42:55] I mean, I chose willingly to give up Wikilambda, in order to have something that can be a good immediate description for outreach, not so much troublesome for Legal, and not so much difficult to pronounce for non-experts in Greek :) [02:42:58] As well there are many informal (but not approved) uses of the term "Wikimedia" by many groups [02:43:07] it still broke my heart but still [02:43:44] I still don't understand why lambda is supposed to be so hard to pronounce [02:43:45] I also did not like Wikilamnda which is so often misspelled ("mbd" is not easy to type) [02:44:08] I also did not like "Wikilamnda" which is so often misspelled ("mbd" is not easy to type) [02:44:30] or is it "Niki Lauda ?" [02:46:01] I also did not like "Wikilamnda" which is so often misspelled ("mbd" is not easy to type; see: I mistyped it on this message as well) [02:48:24] can't tell if insulting User:Nikki or not (re @Philippe: or is it "Niki Lauda ?") [02:48:27] I kinda liked Wikilambda, but I think Wikifunctions fits better with the other projects and how clearly they are named [02:48:36] Anyway I'm still fine with the decision to keep it as an internal technical code inside the code extension (which may be reused later for other projects including outside Wikimedia projects) [02:48:50] Exactly [02:49:40] it's a play on names, although not a very much funny one (re @mahir256: can't tell if insulting User:Nikki or not) [02:49:52] I was not thinking at all about some User:Nikki on any wiki. [02:50:20] But the car racer was much more known internationally. [02:50:22] I liked the fact that the extension is going to be (re)named that way :) (re @vrandecic: I kinda liked Wikilambda, but I think Wikifunctions fits better with the other projects and how clearly they are named) [02:50:23] Well you made the "joke" in response to this comment by User:Nikki so (re @Nikki: I still don't understand why lambda is supposed to be so hard to pronounce) [02:50:46] Compared to the idiom "beat a dead horse"? (re @Philippe: But the car racer was much more known internationally.) [02:51:14] I think we should adopt lambs as unofficial pet animals [02:51:20] Like Wikidata has goats [02:51:31] But the car racer was much more known internationally. (I'm not sure about his name orthography) [02:51:31] Because of WikiLAMBda [02:51:33] +1 (re @vrandecic: I think we should adopt lambs as unofficial pet animals) [02:51:39] Or is that too silly? [02:52:12] would that make my opinion "mäh" instead? :P [02:52:19] :D [02:52:37] we had a Goatification Twitter account, I think this sits well before that threshold :P [02:52:39] Every thime I need to write "lambda", I have difficulties (it's not a question about its pronunciation): the orthography varies as well across languages (and it's still not the true Greek orthography...) [02:52:48] I keep trying to get teams to adopt the tardigrade, but I do love that pun... [02:53:12] Tardigrades are awesome! [02:53:22] Anyway, it's 7pm in my part of the world (Western Canada) so I'm calling the day "done". I hope everyone has a good and peaceful local $timeofday. :) [02:53:27] I'll try to convince my chapter to adopt it (re @wmtelegram_bot: I keep trying to get teams to adopt the tardigrade, but I do love that pun...) [02:53:29] I had a sheepish laugh about that (re @Nikki: would that make my opinion "mäh" instead? :P) [02:53:39] :D [02:53:40] But may be some would pronounce it "Wiki Loud A" [02:54:00] and write it "Wiki AAAAAA!" [02:54:05] it's almost 4 AM here, hi insomnia! (re @wmtelegram_bot: Anyway, it's 7pm in my part of the world (Western Canada) so I'm calling the day "done". I hope everyone has a good and peaceful local $timeofday. :)) [02:54:06] My favorite typos were Wililambada [02:54:21] Go to bed! And switch off the screen [02:54:22] Ewe, your thoughts look like sheep? (re @vrandecic: I had a sheepish laugh about that) [02:54:41] 😄 [02:55:11] https://tools-static.wmflabs.org/bridgebot/4ef9e82f/file_1598_tgs.webp [02:55:25] I'm pretty sure that didn't work in IRC, need to check it later [02:55:27] Ewe, your laughs look like sheep? (re @vrandecic: I had a sheepish laugh about that) [02:55:46] (I think it should work as a gif, AFAIK) [02:56:08] it's a .webp url [02:56:11] almost [02:56:17] https://tools-static.wmflabs.org/bridgebot/ca4e1b25/file_1599_tgs.webp [02:56:19] almost got it [02:56:45] well, see you soon, going to try to sleep a bit [02:56:56] Sleep well! [02:57:26] https://tools-static.wmflabs.org/bridgebot/348e3f62/file_1600.webp [02:57:35] this is wikilama [02:57:53] I'll try to count the sheeps, pardon, the lambs :P (re @vrandecic: Sleep well!) [02:58:04] pardon the lamas! [02:59:50] https://tools-static.wmflabs.org/bridgebot/43acf598/file_1601.webp [03:00:45] :D [03:00:54] Wikilama is awesome [03:01:05] 🦙 [03:02:02] there's also the famous wiskicola [03:02:28] That one too me a moment [03:02:46] *took [03:03:59] and the wikindiya (Week in India) [03:04:35] I'm kinda glad no new name proposals can be submitted anymore [03:04:51] ;) [03:05:15] This will come back later, who knows ? [03:05:33] there are tons of wikiXXXX on the web [03:05:38] Yes [03:07:26] That's why the legal department must make research before the final approval [03:08:44] \λ/ [03:09:03] Yes, indeed [03:09:21] We need to be careful not to run ahead of legal [03:09:29] (waiting patiently) [03:09:35] Do you have concepts to work for the next logo ? Are there things we can do to testbed the proposals, improve their technical quality? [03:09:59] or to help those that would just draft a sketch? [03:10:45] Not really. I'd like us to be open to the ideas [03:11:07] (Note, I'm less concerned by the rules for now, we can however look at what happened for the new Mediawiki logo that was jsut voted but still waiting again the final approval as well) [03:11:16] I was thinking of asking comms to write a paragraph or two with guidance, but nothing fixed and strict [03:12:48] Honestly, the Wikidata logo was so awesome, and we would never have gotten it if we have too much constraints [03:12:58] *had [03:15:43] However Mediawiki has another goal and not meant to be developed, made or used by the WM community alone (e.g. it has many extensions that are rejected in Wikimedia, and Wikimedia is not restricted to use only Mediawiki or even just the web), so it has a clear separate identity. The MW software goal is not to develop open knowledge (even if it's opensourced), unlike WM which can and already use many other softwares and commun [03:17:49] Unfortunately some logos for WM projects are far from this objective (look at Wiktionary, Wikisource, or Wikinews. Only Commons is really compliant (and Wikipedia but partly) [03:19:56] however with the advent of Wikimedia to be renamed Wikipedia (because it is better known like this and would avoid the continuous confusion with MediaWiki), this still does not obsolete the Wikimedia Community logo, which is excellent like it is but too strongly linked to the WMF logo that would then change to be more like Wikipedia) [03:24:09] Also the new wiki of functions already conflicts with other similar projects, also partly on Wikiata or commons (notably with synchronized templates and modules; Wikifunctions will jsut help become the new central point, whereas these projects are developed in various places and not well coordinated, and not very accessible to many contributors. The most open space has been Commons for now, because it is already international [03:25:42] I'd like us to do stuff not done before, and not replace functionality used on a single wiki. There is a lot of fun things that can be done with data on Commons and functions from Wikifunctions [03:29:42] also lot of data/modules/templates in Wiktionary (and some starting duplciation from it into wikidata for its new lexemes) I don't thinlk wikidata is the best place for that, but we still don't have a centralisation of efforts across wiktionnaries (the largest ones being English and French since long, most others being fed by many bots craeating an inferno of long term maintenance) [06:19:49] Lambs++, let's adopt them as the mascot. [09:42:51] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niki_Lauda (re @Philippe: or is it "Niki Lauda ?") [09:46:08] If I can summarize the votes, [09:46:09] * If Wikifunctions passes the legal review: Wikifunctions will be the name of the wiki and WikiLambda will be the name of the software. [09:46:10] * If Wikifunctions does not pass the legal review: Wikimedia Functions will be the name of the wiki and WikiLambda will be the name of the software. [09:46:36] This means that we need two logos as per Wikidata and Wikibase. [09:51:55] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiFunctions [09:51:55] https://github.com/reedy/AutoWikiBrowser/tree/master/WikiFunctions [09:52:10] https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Module:WikiFunctions?useskin=oasis [14:53:27] Eventually we will need two logos, but there is no need to plan for that or to hurry that. Let's focus on the new wiki first. [15:15:00] Note however that if Wikilamda becomes an autonomous software project (like Mediawiki), it should be clear that the logo adopted for our new wiki whose content will be managed by our community is independant of the external content that could be created privately and not vetted by the Wikimedia community. So I think our logo should not use any "lambda" form, and should focus clearly as belonging to our community. This is stil [15:20:27] Note however that if Wikilamda becomes an autonomous software project (like Mediawiki), it should be clear that the logo adopted for our new wiki whose content will be managed by our community is independant of the external content that could be created privately and not vetted by the Wikimedia community. So I think our logo should not use any "lambda" form, and should focus clearly as belonging to our community. This is stil [15:20:28] So the logo for the Wikilambda software should be near the one adopted for MediaWiki, as it will clearly be an extension of it (or it could as well reuse the logo ofMediaWikii itself, or a generic one for all its extensions, such as adding a "gear" or "plug" on top of the Mediawiki "flower" logo. I tend to think that a generic logo for MediaWiki plugins (at least those maintained by Wikimedia) could be a first priority before [15:20:30] But we'll need the community logo for Wikifunctions sooner than for software plugins... [15:30:20] Wikibase doesn't seem to have the same arrangement though? [15:39:26] yes it has. But Wikibase was developed with a strong external interest (after various private extensions developed and tried for private external wikis). For now the Wikilambda project does not seem to attract the interest from external parties, and originates from Wikimedia itself, so it will first be developed internally for the purpose of Abstract Wikipedia (long term) and Wikifunctions (shorter term), which may create the [15:39:27] (I see several opportunities for Wikimlamda, notably for cloud computing providers, or for existing program repositories, where GitHub and Phabricator are not sufficient as they focus the development and maintenance, but not the deployment and effective use for real projects; there could be usages as well in other sectors, such as online banking, scientific or engineering simulations or any use of distributed computing over a [15:39:35] yes it has. But Wikibase was developed with a strong external interest (after various private extensions developed and tried for private external wikis). For now the Wikilambda project does not seem to attract the interest from external parties, and originates from Wikimedia itself, so it will first be developed internally for the purpose of Abstract Wikipedia (long term) and Wikifunctions (shorter term), which may create the [15:39:36] (I see several opportunities for Wikilambda, notably for cloud computing providers, or for existing program repositories, where GitHub and Phabricator are not sufficient as they focus the development and maintenance, but not the deployment and effective use for real projects; there could be usages as well in other sectors, such as online banking, scientific or engineering simulations or any use of distributed computing over a