[04:26:54] This exists now (kind of): [[Special:Diff/1366346468]] and [[d:Wikidata:Lexicographical_coverage/Missing/bn]] (re @বোধিসত্ত্ব: @vrandecic , can bn have the data for lexicographical coverage ?) [04:27:05] This exists now (kind of): [[d:Special:Diff/1366346468]] and [[d:Wikidata:Lexicographical_coverage/Missing/bn]] (re @বোধিসত্ত্ব: @vrandecic , can bn have the data for lexicographical coverage ?) [04:43:28] Very cool! Thank you, that's awesome! (re @mahir256: This exists now (kind of): [[d:Special:Diff/1366346468]] and [[d:Wikidata:Lexicographical_coverage/Missing/bn]]) [07:11:40] Is Quiddity still around? [07:12:21] in general, yes. Right now. no. >.> (it's 11pm on a Saturday!) [07:12:52] Ah, ok, just haven't seen you on Phabricator in a while (re @wmtelegram_bot: in general, yes. Right now. no. >.> (it's 11pm on a Saturday!)) [07:13:16] (it's 1am here, so yes it's inopportune for both of us) [14:30:09] I’m about to livestream some development on GraalEneyj, the prospective alternative Wikifunctions evaluation engine that Denny mentioned in a few of the updates, if anyone’s interested in that :) https://twitch.tv/lucaswerkmeister [21:56:25] May be you've not seen the updated statistics about articles per speaker (L1 or L2). They clearly show which languages suffer the msot of lack of support. [21:56:26] Look at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias_by_speakers_per_article [21:56:27] These languages that need the most development in Wikipedia are all those sorted at end of the list, i.e. those with less than 1 article per speaker. All of them concern millions of speakers. [21:56:29] Exclude those that are already well developed and can continue their course (e.g. Chinese [zh] and Simple English [simple], Hindi [hi]) all with over 100k articles or those that are basic variants of another well developed language (Simple English [simple], Moroccan Arabic [ary], and may be Assamese [as] if seen as a variant of Bengali [bn]). [21:56:30] You immediately see that the languages that would benefit the most are (in order of importance): Hausa [ha], Lao [lo], Lingala [ln], Bhojpuri [bh], Hakka [hak], Pashto [ps], Gan [gan], Somali [so], Maithili [mai], Zulu [zu], Uyghur [ug], Khmer [km], Wu [wuu], Sindhi [sd], Shona [sn], Gujarati [gu], Amaric [am], Kannada [am], Javanese [jv], Santali [sat], Turkmen [tk], Northern Sotho [st], Telugu [te], Marathi [mr] and Banjar [21:56:32] You'll note a concentration in India (even if they are part of the 22 scheduled languages) and other Indo-Aryan languages surrounding India, in South-Eastern Africa, and South-Eastern Asia (Khmer, Lao, Javanese). [21:56:33] Those are also places with the highest need for education even if these languages have a very vivid culture, unfortunately transmitted only vocally, and written education is made in another major language, sometimes very different (so difficult to access for these native speakers, considered "second class" citizens). [21:59:50] May be you've not seen the updated statistics about articles per speaker (L1 or L2). They clearly show which languages suffer the msot of lack of support. [21:59:51] Look at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias_by_speakers_per_article [21:59:53] These languages that need the most development in Wikipedia are all those sorted at end of the list, i.e. those with less than 1 article per speaker. All of them concern millions of speakers. [21:59:54] Exclude those that are already well developed and can continue their course (e.g. Chinese [zh] and Simple English [simple], Hindi [hi]) all with over 100k articles or those that are basic variants of another well developed language (Simple English [simple], Moroccan Arabic [ary], and may be Assamese [as] if seen as a variant of Bengali [bn]). [21:59:56] You immediately see that the languages that would benefit the most are (in order of importance): Hausa [ha], Lao [lo], Lingala [ln], Bhojpuri [bh], Hakka [hak], Pashto [ps], Gan [gan], Somali [so], Maithili [mai], Zulu [zu], Uyghur [ug], Khmer [km], Wu [wuu], Sindhi [sd], Shona [sn], Gujarati [gu], Amaric [am], Kannada [am], Javanese [jv], Santali [sat], Turkmen [tk], Northern Sotho [st], Telugu [te], Marathi [mr] and Banjar [21:59:57] You'll note a concentration in India (even if they are part of the 22 scheduled languages) and other Indo-Aryan languages surrounding India, in South-Eastern Africa, and South-Eastern Asia (Khmer, Lao, Javanese). [21:59:59] Those are also places with the highest need for education even if these languages have a very vivid culture, unfortunately transmitted only vocally, and written education is made in another major language, sometimes very different (so difficult to access for these native speakers, considered "second class" citizens, or having to study abroad). These places may also have difficulties with Internet access (notably in Southern-E [22:01:12] May be you've not seen the updated statistics about articles per speaker (L1 or L2). They clearly show which languages suffer the msot of lack of support. [22:01:12] Look at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias_by_speakers_per_article [22:01:14] These languages that need the most development in Wikipedia are all those sorted at end of the list, i.e. those with less than 1 article per speaker. All of them concern millions of speakers. [22:01:15] Exclude those that are already well developed and can continue their course (e.g. Chinese [zh] and Simple English [simple], Hindi [hi]) all with over 100k articles or those that are basic variants of another well developed language (Simple English [simple], Moroccan Arabic [ary], and may be Assamese [as] if seen as a variant of Bengali [bn]). [22:01:17] You immediately see that the languages that would benefit the most are (in order of importance): Hausa [ha], Lao [lo], Lingala [ln], Bhojpuri [bh], Hakka [hak], Pashto [ps], Gan [gan], Somali [so], Maithili [mai], Zulu [zu], Uyghur [ug], Khmer [km], Wu [wuu], Sindhi [sd], Shona [sn], Gujarati [gu], Amaric [am], Kannada [am], Javanese [jv], Santali [sat], Turkmen [tk], Northern Sotho [st], Telugu [te], Marathi [mr] and Banjar [22:01:18] You'll note a concentration in India (even if they are part of the 22 scheduled languages) and other Indo-Aryan languages surrounding India, in South-Eastern Africa, and South-Eastern Asia (Khmer, Lao, Javanese). [22:01:20] Those are also places with the highest need for education even if these languages have a very vivid culture, unfortunately transmitted only vocally, and written education is made in another major language, sometimes very different (so difficult to access for these native speakers, considered "second class" citizens, or having to study abroad). These places may also have difficulties with Internet access (notably in Southern-E [22:04:58] May be you've not seen the updated statistics about articles per speaker (L1 or L2). They clearly show which languages suffer the msot of lack of support. [22:04:59] Look at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias_by_speakers_per_article [22:05:00] These languages that need the most development in Wikipedia are all those sorted at end of the list, i.e. those with less than 1 article per speaker. All of them concern millions of speakers. [22:05:02] Exclude those that are already well developed and can continue their course (e.g. Chinese [zh] and Simple English [simple], Hindi [hi]) all with over 100k articles or those that are basic variants of another well developed language (Simple English [simple], Moroccan Arabic [ary], and may be Assamese [as] if seen as a variant of Bengali [bn]). [22:05:03] You immediately see that the languages that would benefit the most are (in order of importance): Hausa [ha], Lao [lo], Lingala [ln], Bhojpuri [bh], Hakka [hak], Pashto [ps], Gan [gan], Somali [so], Maithili [mai], Zulu [zu], Uyghur [ug], Khmer [km], Wu [wuu], Sindhi [sd], Shona [sn], Gujarati [gu], Amaric [am], Kannada [am], Javanese [jv], Santali [sat], Turkmen [tk], Northern Sotho [st], Telugu [te], Marathi [mr] and Banjar [22:05:05] You'll note a concentration in India (even if they are part of the 22 scheduled languages) and other Indo-Aryan languages surrounding India, in South-Eastern Africa, and South-Eastern Asia (Khmer, Lao, Javanese). [22:05:06] Those are also places with the highest need for education even if these languages have a very vivid culture, unfortunately transmitted only vocally, and written education is made in another major language, sometimes very different (so difficult to access for these native speakers, considered "second class" citizens, or having to study abroad). These places may also have difficulties with Internet access (notably in Southern-E [22:05:08] This means that we need to create "development hotspots" in at least 3 locations to study the need of their immediate surrounding region, but also with reliable access to the Internet and ways to develop assistance with their regional translators: South Africa, India, Indonesia. [22:05:33] May be you've not seen the updated statistics about articles per speaker (L1 or L2). They clearly show which languages suffer the msot of lack of support. [22:05:35] Look at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias_by_speakers_per_article [22:05:36] These languages that need the most development in Wikipedia are all those sorted at end of the list, i.e. those with less than 1 article per speaker. All of them concern millions of speakers. [22:05:38] Exclude those that are already well developed and can continue their course (e.g. Chinese [zh] and Simple English [simple], Hindi [hi]) all with over 100k articles or those that are basic variants of another well developed language (Simple English [simple], Moroccan Arabic [ary], and may be Assamese [as] if seen as a variant of Bengali [bn]). [22:05:39] You immediately see that the languages that would benefit the most are (in order of importance): Hausa [ha], Lao [lo], Lingala [ln], Bhojpuri [bh], Hakka [hak], Pashto [ps], Gan [gan], Somali [so], Maithili [mai], Zulu [zu], Uyghur [ug], Khmer [km], Wu [wuu], Sindhi [sd], Shona [sn], Gujarati [gu], Amaric [am], Kannada [am], Javanese [jv], Santali [sat], Turkmen [tk], Northern Sotho [st], Telugu [te], Marathi [mr] and Banjar [22:05:41] You'll note a concentration in India (even if they are part of the 22 scheduled languages) and other Indo-Aryan languages surrounding India, in South-Eastern Africa, and South-Eastern Asia (Khmer, Lao, Javanese). [22:05:42] Those are also places with the highest need for education even if these languages have a very vivid culture, unfortunately transmitted only vocally, and written education is made in another major language, sometimes very different (so difficult to access for these native speakers, considered "second class" citizens, or having to study abroad). These places may also have difficulties with Internet access (notably in Southern-E [22:05:44] This means that we need to create "development hotspots" in at least 4 locations to study the need of their immediate surrounding region, but also with reliable access to the Internet and ways to develop assistance with their regional translators: South Africa, India, Thailand and Indonesia. [22:05:58] May be you've not seen the updated statistics about articles per speaker (L1 or L2). They clearly show which languages suffer the msot of lack of support. [22:05:59] Look at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias_by_speakers_per_article [22:06:00] These languages that need the most development in Wikipedia are all those sorted at end of the list, i.e. those with less than 1 article per speaker. All of them concern millions of speakers. [22:06:02] Exclude those that are already well developed and can continue their course (e.g. Chinese [zh] and Simple English [simple], Hindi [hi]) all with over 100k articles or those that are basic variants of another well developed language (Simple English [simple], Moroccan Arabic [ary], and may be Assamese [as] if seen as a variant of Bengali [bn]). [22:06:03] You immediately see that the languages that would benefit the most are (in order of importance): Hausa [ha], Lao [lo], Lingala [ln], Bhojpuri [bh], Hakka [hak], Pashto [ps], Gan [gan], Somali [so], Maithili [mai], Zulu [zu], Uyghur [ug], Khmer [km], Wu [wuu], Sindhi [sd], Shona [sn], Gujarati [gu], Amaric [am], Kannada [am], Javanese [jv], Santali [sat], Turkmen [tk], Northern Sotho [st], Telugu [te], Marathi [mr] and Banjar [22:06:05] You'll note a concentration in India (even if they are part of the 22 scheduled languages) and other Indo-Aryan languages surrounding India, in South-Eastern Africa, and South-Eastern Asia (Khmer, Lao, Javanese). [22:06:06] Those are also places with the highest need for education even if these languages have a very vivid culture, unfortunately transmitted only vocally, and written education is made in another major language, sometimes very different (so difficult to access for these native speakers, considered "second class" citizens, or having to study abroad). These places may also have difficulties with Internet access (notably in Southern-E [22:06:08] This means that we need to create "development hotspots" in at least 4 locations to study the need of their immediate surrounding region, but also with reliable access to the Internet and ways to develop assistance with their regional translators: South Africa, India, Thailand and Indonesia; may be also in Taiwan. [22:08:57] May be you've not seen the updated statistics about articles per speaker (L1 or L2). It clearly shows which languages suffer the most from lack of support (this statistics are only for Wikipedia, but are in scope to be focused by the Abstract Wikipedia). [22:08:57] Look at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias_by_speakers_per_article [22:08:59] These languages that need the most development in Wikipedia are all those sorted at end of the list, i.e. those with less than 1 article per speaker. All of them concern millions of speakers. [22:09:00] Exclude those that are already well developed and can continue their course (e.g. Chinese [zh] and Simple English [simple], Hindi [hi]) all with over 100k articles or those that are basic variants of another well developed language (Simple English [simple], Moroccan Arabic [ary], and may be Assamese [as] if seen as a variant of Bengali [bn]). [22:09:02] You immediately see that the languages that would benefit the most are (in order of importance): Hausa [ha], Lao [lo], Lingala [ln], Bhojpuri [bh], Hakka [hak], Pashto [ps], Gan [gan], Somali [so], Maithili [mai], Zulu [zu], Uyghur [ug], Khmer [km], Wu [wuu], Sindhi [sd], Shona [sn], Gujarati [gu], Amaric [am], Kannada [am], Javanese [jv], Santali [sat], Turkmen [tk], Northern Sotho [st], Telugu [te], Marathi [mr] and Banjar [22:09:03] You'll note a concentration in India (even if they are part of the 22 scheduled languages) and other Indo-Aryan languages surrounding India, in South-Eastern Africa, and South-Eastern Asia (Khmer, Lao, Javanese). [22:09:05] Those are also places with the highest need for education even if these languages have a very vivid culture, unfortunately transmitted only vocally, and written education is made in another major language, sometimes very different (so difficult to access for these native speakers, considered "second class" citizens, or having to study abroad). These places may also have difficulties with Internet access (notably in Southern-E [22:09:06] This means that we need to create "development hotspots" in at least 4 locations to study the need of their immediate surrounding region, but also with reliable access to the Internet and ways to develop assistance with their regional translators: South Africa, India, Thailand and Indonesia; may be also in Taiwan. [22:11:45] May be you've not seen the updated statistics about articles per speaker (L1 or L2). It clearly shows which languages suffer the most from lack of support (this statistics are only for Wikipedia, but are in scope to be focused by the Abstract Wikipedia). [22:11:47] Look at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias_by_speakers_per_article [22:11:48] These languages that need the most development in Wikipedia are all those sorted at end of the list, i.e. those with less than 1 article per speaker. All of them concern millions of speakers. [22:11:50] Exclude those that are already well developed and can continue their course (e.g. Chinese [zh] and Simple English [simple], Hindi [hi]) all with over 100k articles or those that are basic variants of another well developed language (Simple English [simple], Moroccan Arabic [ary], and may be Assamese [as] if seen as a variant of Bengali [bn]). [22:11:51] You immediately see that the languages that would benefit the most are (in order of importance): Hausa [ha], Lao [lo], Lingala [ln], Bhojpuri [bh], Hakka [hak], Pashto [ps], Gan [gan], Somali [so], Maithili [mai], Zulu [zu], Uyghur [ug], Khmer [km], Wu [wuu], Sindhi [sd], Shona [sn], Gujarati [gu], Amaric [am], Kannada [am], Javanese [jv], Santali [sat], Turkmen [tk], Northern Sotho [st], Telugu [te], Marathi [mr] and Banjar [22:11:53] You'll note a concentration in India (even if they are part of the 22 scheduled languages) and other Indo-Aryan languages surrounding India, in South-Eastern Africa, and South-Eastern Asia (Khmer, Lao, Javanese). [22:11:54] Those are also places with the highest need for education even if these languages have a very vivid culture, unfortunately transmitted only vocally, and written education is made in another major language, sometimes very different (so difficult to access for these native speakers, considered "second class" citizens, or having to study abroad). These places may also have difficulties with Internet access (notably in Southern-E [22:11:56] This means that we need to create "development hotspots" in at least 4 locations to study the need of their immediate surrounding region, but also with reliable access to the Internet and ways to develop assistance with their regional translators: South Africa, India, Thailand and Indonesia; may be also in Taiwan. [22:11:57] And it would be interesting to know whay development of Wikipedia is so difficult for Lao or Khmer, in comparison to Vietnamese which has a good support: are our internationalisation tools adequate for these two scripts ? Are there difficulties with renderers, input methods? [22:12:06] May be you've not seen the updated statistics about articles per speaker (L1 or L2). It clearly shows which languages suffer the most from lack of support (this statistics are only for Wikipedia, but are in scope to be focused by the Abstract Wikipedia). [22:12:06] Look at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias_by_speakers_per_article [22:12:08] These languages that need the most development in Wikipedia are all those sorted at end of the list, i.e. those with less than 1 article per speaker. All of them concern millions of speakers. [22:12:09] Exclude those that are already well developed and can continue their course (e.g. Chinese [zh] and Simple English [simple], Hindi [hi]) all with over 100k articles or those that are basic variants of another well developed language (Simple English [simple], Moroccan Arabic [ary], and may be Assamese [as] if seen as a variant of Bengali [bn]). [22:12:11] You immediately see that the languages that would benefit the most are (in order of importance): Hausa [ha], Lao [lo], Lingala [ln], Bhojpuri [bh], Hakka [hak], Pashto [ps], Gan [gan], Somali [so], Maithili [mai], Zulu [zu], Uyghur [ug], Khmer [km], Wu [wuu], Sindhi [sd], Shona [sn], Gujarati [gu], Amaric [am], Kannada [am], Javanese [jv], Santali [sat], Turkmen [tk], Northern Sotho [st], Telugu [te], Marathi [mr] and Banjar [22:12:12] You'll note a concentration in India (even if they are part of the 22 scheduled languages) and other Indo-Aryan languages surrounding India, in South-Eastern Africa, and South-Eastern Asia (Khmer, Lao, Javanese). [22:12:14] Those are also places with the highest need for education even if these languages have a very vivid culture, unfortunately transmitted only vocally, and written education is made in another major language, sometimes very different (so difficult to access for these native speakers, considered "second class" citizens, or having to study abroad). These places may also have difficulties with Internet access (notably in Southern-E [22:12:15] This means that we need to create "development hotspots" in at least 4 locations to study the need of their immediate surrounding region, but also with reliable access to the Internet and ways to develop assistance with their regional translators: South Africa, India, Thailand and Indonesia; may be also in Taiwan. [22:12:17] And it would be interesting to know whay development of Wikipedia is so difficult for Lao or Khmer, in comparison to Vietnamese which has a good support: are our internationalisation tools adequate for these two scripts ? Are there difficulties with renderers, fonts or input methods? [22:12:26] May be you've not seen the updated statistics about articles per speaker (L1 or L2). It clearly shows which languages suffer the most from lack of support (this statistics are only for Wikipedia, but are in scope to be focused by the Abstract Wikipedia). [22:12:27] Look at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias_by_speakers_per_article [22:12:29] These languages that need the most development in Wikipedia are all those sorted at end of the list, i.e. those with less than 1 article per speaker. All of them concern millions of speakers. [22:12:30] Exclude those that are already well developed and can continue their course (e.g. Chinese [zh] and Simple English [simple], Hindi [hi]) all with over 100k articles or those that are basic variants of another well developed language (Simple English [simple], Moroccan Arabic [ary], and may be Assamese [as] if seen as a variant of Bengali [bn]). [22:12:32] You immediately see that the languages that would benefit the most are (in order of importance): Hausa [ha], Lao [lo], Lingala [ln], Bhojpuri [bh], Hakka [hak], Pashto [ps], Gan [gan], Somali [so], Maithili [mai], Zulu [zu], Uyghur [ug], Khmer [km], Wu [wuu], Sindhi [sd], Shona [sn], Gujarati [gu], Amaric [am], Kannada [am], Javanese [jv], Santali [sat], Turkmen [tk], Northern Sotho [st], Telugu [te], Marathi [mr] and Banjar [22:12:33] You'll note a concentration in India (even if they are part of the 22 scheduled languages) and other Indo-Aryan languages surrounding India, in South-Eastern Africa, and South-Eastern Asia (Khmer, Lao, Javanese). [22:12:35] Those are also places with the highest need for education even if these languages have a very vivid culture, unfortunately transmitted only vocally, and written education is made in another major language, sometimes very different (so difficult to access for these native speakers, considered "second class" citizens, or having to study abroad). These places may also have difficulties with Internet access (notably in Southern-E [22:12:36] This means that we need to create "development hotspots" in at least 4 locations to study the need of their immediate surrounding region, but also with reliable access to the Internet and ways to develop assistance with their regional translators: South Africa, India, Thailand and Indonesia; may be also in Taiwan. [22:12:38] And it would be interesting to know whay development of Wikipedia is so difficult for Lao or Khmer, in comparison to Vietnamese which has a good support: are our internationalisation tools adequate for these two scripts ? Are there difficulties with renderers, fonts, input methods or display layout on the wiki? [22:13:07] May be you've not seen the updated statistics about articles per speaker (L1 or L2). It clearly shows which languages suffer the most from lack of support (this statistics are only for Wikipedia, but are in scope to be focused by the Abstract Wikipedia). [22:13:08] Look at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias_by_speakers_per_article [22:13:09] These languages that need the most development in Wikipedia are all those sorted at end of the list, i.e. those with less than 1 article per speaker. All of them concern millions of speakers. [22:13:11] Exclude those that are already well developed and can continue their course (e.g. Chinese [zh] and Simple English [simple], Hindi [hi]) all with over 100k articles or those that are basic variants of another well developed language (Simple English [simple], Moroccan Arabic [ary], and may be Assamese [as] if seen as a variant of Bengali [bn]). [22:13:12] You immediately see that the languages that would benefit the most are (in order of importance): Hausa [ha], Lao [lo], Lingala [ln], Bhojpuri [bh], Hakka [hak], Pashto [ps], Gan [gan], Somali [so], Maithili [mai], Zulu [zu], Uyghur [ug], Khmer [km], Wu [wuu], Sindhi [sd], Shona [sn], Gujarati [gu], Amaric [am], Kannada [am], Javanese [jv], Santali [sat], Turkmen [tk], Northern Sotho [st], Telugu [te], Marathi [mr] and Banjar [22:13:14] You'll note a concentration in India (even if they are part of the 22 scheduled languages) and other Indo-Aryan languages surrounding India, in South-Eastern Africa, and South-Eastern Asia (Khmer, Lao, Javanese). [22:13:15] Those are also places with the highest need for education even if these languages have a very vivid culture, unfortunately transmitted only vocally, and written education is made in another major language, sometimes very different (so difficult to access for these native speakers, considered "second class" citizens, or having to study abroad). These places may also have difficulties with Internet access (notably in Southern-E [22:13:17] This means that we need to create "development hotspots" in at least 4 locations to study the need of their immediate surrounding region, but also with reliable access to the Internet and ways to develop assistance with their regional translators: South Africa, India, Thailand and Indonesia; may be also in Taiwan. [22:13:18] And it would be interesting to know whay development of Wikipedia is so difficult for Lao or Khmer, in comparison to Vietnamese which has a good support: are our internationalisation tools adequate for these two scripts ? Are there difficulties with renderers, fonts, input methods or display layout on the wiki, as opposed to Vietnamese which uses the Latin script? [22:40:48] I would say this is not a particularly good tool for figuring out which ones need help in all cases. [22:40:48] Top of the list has, for example, the Northern Saami wikipedia which direly needs help. That table says there are 33 active users, but that's got to be 30 bots and 3 human users of which 1 is a newcomer and apparently the only one of us speaks it as their mother tongue. Because the language community is small, it looks like it's doing better than it is. (re @Philippe: May be you've not seen the updated statistics about articl [22:40:50] Look at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias_by_speakers_per_article [22:40:51] These languages that need the most development in Wikipedia are all those sorted at end of the list, i.e. those with less than 1 article per speaker. All of them concern millions of speakers. [22:40:53] Exclude those that are already well developed and can continue their course (e.g. Chinese [zh] and Simple English [simple], Hindi [hi]) all with over 100k articles or those that are basic variants of another well developed language (Simple English [simple], Moroccan Arabic [ary], and may be Assamese [as] if seen as a variant of Bengali [bn]). [22:40:54] You immediately see that the languages that would benefit the most are (in order of importance): Hausa [ha], Lao [lo], Lingala [ln], Bhojpuri [bh], Hakka [hak], Pashto [ps], Gan [gan], Somali [so], Maithili [mai], Zulu [zu], Uyghur [ug], Khmer [km], Wu [wuu], Sindhi [sd], Shona [sn], Gujarati [gu], Amaric [am], Kannada [am], Javanese [jv], Santali [sat], Turkmen [tk], Northern Sotho [st], Telugu [te], Marathi [mr] and Banjar [ [22:40:56] You'll note a concentration in India (even if they are part of the 22 scheduled languages) and other Indo-Aryan languages surrounding India, in South-Eastern Africa, and South-Eastern Asia (Khmer, Lao, Javanese). [22:40:57] Those are also places with the highest need for education even if these languages have a very vivid culture, unfortunately transmitted only vocally, and written education is made in another major language, sometimes very different (so difficult to access for these native speakers, considered "second class" citizens, or having to study abroad). These places may also have difficulties with Internet access (notably in Southern-Ea [22:40:59] This means that we need to create "development hotspots" in at least 4 locations to study the need of their immediate surrounding region, but also with reliable access to the Internet and ways to develop assistance with their regional translators: South Africa, India, Thailand and Indonesia; may be also in Taiwan. [22:41:00] And it would be interesting to know whay development of Wikipedia is so difficult for Lao or Khmer, in comparison to Vietnamese which has a good support: are our internationalisation tools adequate for these two scripts ? Are there difficulties with renderers, fonts, input methods or display layout on the wiki, as opposed to Vietnamese which uses the Latin script?) [22:45:16] It is also hard as outsiders to help languages that need to come up with a ton of new words and terms, even when writing mainly about stuff close to the community itself. This is something not commonly reocgnized by speakers of big languages. [22:45:17] For example, I've been adding in dates of birth and death for dates and years for people in the Inari Saami wp. The hardest parts have been countries+nationalities and occupational terms. The first weren't standardized until last year and the latter don't exist for the most part. [22:48:12] yes the top of list is for languages that are in general for a small minority but currently fed massively by bots and very few users. Those languages are another problem. Here I just concentrate on languages spoken by millions (and that are even official nationwide). Lao and Khmer are good examples to study: why don't they grow up? [22:49:16] We are also intentionally excluding communities from other wikimedia projects that might not be able to or have the resources to translate the core msgs of mediawiki. [22:50:08] You're right about the existence of such exclusion, that's something we must solve, because I think it is a technical barrier [22:50:14] That question reframed is something those communities have to ask and answer themselves imo. (re @Philippe: yes the top of list is for languages that are in general for a small minority but currently fed massively by bots and very few users. Those languages are another problem. Here I just concentrate on languages spoken by millions (and that are even official nationwide). Lao and Khmer are good examples to study: why don't th [22:50:35] It's a privilege barrier. (re @Philippe: You're right about the existence of such exclusion, that's something we must solve, because I think it is a technical barrier) [22:51:58] Indeed, the bpy and new Wikipedias only really exist because of the efforts of one person in each case (which person, it turns out, hasn't been around for a looong time and so those wikis have withered over the years dormant) (re @WMYupik: It's a privilege barrier.) [22:51:59] which privilege ? Is Internet really so underdeveloped in Laos and Cambodia, and isn't there a large community abroad to help them? That's why I talk about the comparison with Vietnamese [22:52:31] Indeed, the bpy and new Wikipedias only really exist because of the efforts of one lucky technically minded person in each case (which person, it turns out, hasn't been around for a looong time and so those wikis have withered over the years dormant) (re @WMYupik: It's a privilege barrier.) [22:53:01] Indeed, the bpy and new Wikipedias only really exist because of the efforts of one lucky better-educated technically minded person in each case (which person, it turns out, hasn't been around for a looong time and so those wikis have withered over the years dormant) (re @WMYupik: It's a privilege barrier.) [22:53:05] Another barrier is the expectation that everyone knows English and can communicate in it. For instance categories in Commons are for the most part in English even when it's dealing with a country's own stuff. [22:53:07] which privilege ? Is Internet really so underdeveloped in Laos and Cambodia, and isn't there a large community abroad to help them? That's why I talk about the comparison with Vietnamese. But we can compare as well with Thai, which uses an Indic script? [22:53:31] 😔 (re @mahir256: Indeed, the bpy and new Wikipedias only really exist because of the efforts of one lucky better-educated technically minded person in each case (which person, it turns out, hasn't been around for a looong time and so those wikis have withered over the years dormant)) [22:53:51] It's not a question of the Internet per se. (re @Philippe: which privilege ? Is Internet really so underdeveloped in Laos and Cambodia, and isn't there a large community abroad to help them? That's why I talk about the comparison with Vietnamese. But we can compare as well with Thai, which uses an Indic script?) [22:54:41] I have yet to run across a cat in a non-Latin script, but I'm hoping there are some. (re @WMYupik: Another barrier is the expectation that everyone knows English and can communicate in it. For instance categories in Commons are for the most part in English even when it's dealing with a country's own stuff.) [22:55:29] So we need to create contacts with a local community of opensourcers to develop the translation core. Ca nwe work with Mozilla, or OpenStreetMap communities, or Ubuntu communities? Shouldn't we make a paid project grant? [22:56:19] The translation core can't be translated if the words and terms don't exist. [22:57:05] And outsiders foisting a project on a community that could be lacking resources to do other stuff is a horrendous idea. [22:57:06] As well, I think that not just Lao and Khmer would merit this "thumb help". Hausa is in critical need and can be helped from South Africa [22:57:31] https://w.wiki/$rh finds e.g.https://commons.whttps://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:%E2%B5%89%E2%B5%96%E2%B5%89%E2%B5%8D_%E2%B5%8E%E2%B4%B3%E2%B5%AF%E2%B5%8FCategory:%E9%BD%8A%E6%B0%91%E8%A6%81%E8%A1%93術 or Category:ⵉⵖⵉⵍ ⵎⴳⵯⵏ, if that’s any help (re @WMYupik: I have yet to run across a cat in a non-Latin script, but I'm hoping there are some.) [22:57:32] Hause isn't spoken in South Africa. [22:57:49] ❤️❤️❤️ thank you! (re @lucaswerkmeister: rudimentary query finds e.g. Category:齊民要術 or Category:ⵉⵖⵉⵍ ⵎⴳⵯⵏ, if that’s any help) [22:58:23] (and thanks to {{wikidata infobox}} I can even see some information about them in my own language \o/) [22:58:44] I did not say that Hausa was spoken in South Africa, but South Africa has many Bantoid languages. [22:59:03] And a common base terminology can be developed [22:59:11] *facepalm* Hausa is an Afroasiatic language, not Bantu (re @Philippe: I did not say that Hausa was spoken in South Africa, but South Africa has many Bantoid languages.) [22:59:21] Hausa is a Chadic language. [23:00:12] Ooops. I should have checked that. Yes we don't have for now any decent Chadic language support (in a troubled region) [23:00:55] As long as your language is supported in wd though ;) which for almost all langs means that at least the core has been translated 😈 (re @lucaswerkmeister: (and thanks to {{wikidata infobox}} I can even see some information about them in my own language \o/)) [23:04:11] We have the same low support for Atlantic languages (but they are in strong contact with Arabic and Bantoid languages). Bantoid languages are just starting slowly for a few of them. [23:04:12] Javanese could be developed with the base of Indonesian/Malay (and refined later); same with Assamese developed with the base of Bengali (unless this causes troubles/conflicts due to politics). [23:04:32] true (re @WMYupik: As long as your language is supported in wd though ;) which for almost all langs means that at least the core has been translated 😈) [23:05:08] Hausa is also spoken in the troubled region of the USA by a sizeable diaspora. (re @Philippe: Ooops. I should have checked that. Yes we don't have for now any decent Chadic language support (in a troubled region)) [23:05:36] (and while Wikidata allows some additional non-interface languages for labels, there’s a higher barrier for even knowing how to edit labels in them 😔) [23:07:23] (I greatly appreciate the addition of the Saami langs and Finnish Kaalo so they can be used in Commons and wd. Späʼsseb! ❤️) (re @lucaswerkmeister: (and while Wikidata allows some additional non-interface languages for labels, there’s a higher barrier for even knowing how to edit labels in them 😔)) [23:07:36] That's why such thing cand be started with help of the abroad community of expatriates. We should advertize in Wikimedia that we want help from those expats and their work will be appreciated. [23:07:42] (I greatly appreciate the addition of the Saami langs and Finnish Kaalo so they can be used in Commons and wd even with the interface being translated. Späʼsseb! ❤️) (re @lucaswerkmeister: (and while Wikidata allows some additional non-interface languages for labels, there’s a higher barrier for even knowing how to edit labels in them 😔)) [23:08:29] Is that a word derived from Russian? (re @WMYupik: (I greatly appreciate the addition of the Saami langs and Finnish Kaalo so they can be used in Commons and wd even with the interface being translated. Späʼsseb! ❤️)) [23:08:30] I don't think there's a technical barrier for those expats living in Europe, USA, or Australia [23:09:12] Yes :) (re @mahir256: Is that a word derived from Russian?) [23:09:51] Except of course if the tools for inputing data in the native scripts are too poor to be usable: that is then a problem of Wikimedia to solve this. [23:10:54] In spite of the perceived wealth of these places, this pandemic has greatly identified the people who have access to technology and those who don't in them. It'd be a good idea to not believe that everyone has equal access just because you do. (re @Philippe: I don't think there's a technical barrier for those expats living in Europe, USA, or Australia) [23:11:17] For example, there's a sizeable Cambodian community in France, Wikimedia France could ask them for help! [23:11:25] Categories beginning with Greek letters start here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:AllPages&from=%CE%91%CE%A5+letter+combinations&namespace=14 (other non-latin scripts can't be far behind) (re @WMYupik: I have yet to run across a cat in a non-Latin script, but I'm hoping there are some.) [23:11:31] For example, there's a sizeable Cambodian community in France, Wikimedia France could ask them for help to develop Khmer! [23:11:39] Categories beginning with Greek letters start around here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:AllPages&from=%CE%91%CE%A5+letter+combinations&namespace=14 (other non-latin scripts can't be far behind) (re @WMYupik: I have yet to run across a cat in a non-Latin script, but I'm hoping there are some.) [23:11:40] There are enough kids who can't participate in online schooling because they don't have access. [23:12:51] Have you ever _been_ to Clichy-sous-Bois? (not that _I_ have, the one time I visited Paris, but Kim's comments on Internet access still apply) (re @Philippe: For example, there's a sizeable Cambodian community in France, Wikimedia France could ask them for help to develop Khmer!) [23:13:12] I get yelled for creating Commons cats for terms in their own lang all the time. I'm loving the fact these exist! 😍 (re @mahir256: Categories beginning with Greek letters start around here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:AllPages&from=%CE%91%CE%A5+letter+combinations&namespace=14 (other non-latin scripts can't be far behind)) [23:13:42] Clichy-sous-Bois like the rest of Île-de-France has good internet access. [23:14:56] Then pray tell why the immigrant communities resident there haven't been conscripted into your WMFr-run effort to bootstrap the Wikipedias in the languages they speak? (re @Philippe: Clichy-sous-Bois like the rest of Île-de-France has good internet access.) [23:15:45] . (re @WMYupik: It's a privilege barrier.) [23:15:57] And it's cheap for everyone. There's no much need for Internet for many things in France now. There are even help from the government and from ISPs with low cost access. France has one the cheapest Internet with lot of offers and very active competition (even if everyone still does not have a fiber access) [23:17:17] My opinion is that Wikimedia France just focuses too much on developing French language. It should be more open to communities and promote these efforts from migrants and descendants. [23:17:42] I live in the hitech dreamland of Finland. And in the south, where Internet service is good. Every apartment in this building has Internet access. [23:17:42] Yet before this crap pandemic hit, my neighbours used to regularly come here so they could use my computer to check msgs from their kids' school because someone privileged along the line stopped sending notes home. [23:18:17] That seems consistent with the language policy of that government which you say is helping people with Internet access (re @Philippe: My opinion is that Wikimedia France just focuses too much on developing French language. It should be more open to communities and promote these efforts from migrants and descendants.) [23:18:54] All of them have phones, not all of which could be used to access the system, some just didn't have the technical skills to do so, some didn't have the language skills. [23:19:02] (the privilege may well be inherent in the structure around them) [23:19:49] Internet access is pointless if you don't have the time. (re @Philippe: And it's cheap for everyone. There's no much need for Internet for many things in France now. There are even help from the government and from ISPs with low cost access. France has one the cheapest Internet with lot of offers and very active competition (even if everyone still does not have a fiber access)) [23:21:42] And we can also say that translating their native language from French or English would also help them to increase their integration, by letting more people be aware of mutual cultures, and understand eah other. It's a way for self-promotion. [23:21:42] Time is the same whever you natively speak French or a foreign language. [23:21:44] This. (re @mahir256: (the privilege may well be inherent in the structure around them)) [23:22:13] And we can also say that translating their native language from French or English would also help them to increase their integration, by letting more people be aware of mutual cultures, and understand eah other. It's a way for self-promotion. [23:22:14] Time is the same in France whever you natively speak French or a foreign language. The pandemic does not change that. [23:23:06] Tell that to my neighbour who works two poorly paid jobs because that's what's available to him. I'm sure he'll be happy to work on wp on the bus ride between them. (re @Philippe: And we can also say that translating their native language from French or English would also help them to increase their integration, by letting more people be aware of mutual cultures, and understand eah other. It's a way for self-promotion. [23:23:08] Time is the same in France whever you natively speak French or a foreign language. The pandemic does not change that.) [23:23:30] The people who have access have time. [23:24:25] Ok Mme. Klinkert (re @Philippe: And we can also say that translating their native language from French or English would also help them to increase their integration, by letting more people be aware of mutual cultures, and understand eah other. It's a way for self-promotion. [23:24:26] Time is the same in France whever you natively speak French or a foreign language. The pandemic does not change that.) [23:28:10] I don't know Mme Klinkert. Is it on topic are are you kidding me? [23:28:51] (Brigitte Klinkert is apparently the deputy minister in charge of integration in the current French government.) (re @Philippe: I don't know Mme Klinkert. Is it on topic are are you kidding me?) [23:28:57] https://mobile.twitter.com/kdeleon/status/1299386969873461248 [23:30:24] In France, Secours Populaire has been collecting school supplies and tech for those getting left behind. [23:34:44] "white zones" are rare in France, only in very rural areas, not those urban places where most minorities live in France. If you look at coverage maps of France (from ARCEP regulator site) they are heavily tracked by the regulator system and with obligations for all operators, and help from state, regions, and municipalities. The problem is to be abl to pay a mobile phone or tablet (not very costly, there's lot of places where [23:35:48] "Not very costly". 🤦‍♀ [23:35:49] As well, many schools donate computers (paid by the department or region) [23:37:24] . (re @WMYupik: It's a privilege barrier.) [23:38:43] donner à l'homme le poisson... apprendre-lui à pêcher... [23:38:56] there are offers at less than 10 euros/month for mobiles for everyone; the governement also provides help so that underprivilege people with minimal social benefit get a line for lower costs. Some ISPs also *donate* gigabytes to associations that distribute these cheap accesses. [23:39:02] 😂 (re @mahir256: donner à l'homme le poisson... apprendre-lui à pêcher...) [23:40:04] lot of local associations donate refurbished computers (donated by commercial companies) to students [23:40:14] It's not just a technical barrier. I feel this is going in circles. (re @Philippe: there are offers at less than 10 euros/month for mobiles for everyone; the governement also provides help so that underprivilege people with minimal social benefit get a line for lower costs. Some ISPs also *donate* gigabytes to associations that distribute these cheap accesses.) [23:41:46] I live in an area with lot of underprivileged people, all of them of a smartphone, with 4G access. They just use it for phone or Facebook, even if they could use it to develop their own skills. [23:42:05] Ok Jean-Marie (re @Philippe: I live in an area with lot of underprivileged people, all of them of a smartphone, with 4G access. They just use it for phone or Facebook, even if they could use it to develop their own skills.) [23:42:14] I live in an area with lot of underprivileged people, all of them of a smartphone, with 4G access. They just use it for phone or Facebook or other social medias, even if they could use it to develop their own skills. [23:42:58] oof (re @mahir256: Ok Jean-Marie) [23:43:26] That's what it might look like to you. Unless you're watching over their shoulder, which would be creepy af. (re @Philippe: I live in an area with lot of underprivileged people, all of them of a smartphone, with 4G access. They just use it for phone or Facebook or other social medias, even if they could use it to develop their own skills.) [23:45:06] I also don't have a lot of money. I can pay my fiber subscribtion and my phone subscription in a bundle (not lot of gigabytes on my phone, in fact I don't even use them, most data is from home on the fiber) [23:45:26] And let's say they are for the sake of the argument, it is not your place to say what they should or shouldn't be doing. You're being highly judgemental. [23:45:31] and I don't live in a big city [23:45:54] +1 (re @WMYupik: And let's say they are for the sake of the argument, it is not your place to say what they should or shouldn't be doing. You're being highly judgemental.) [23:46:09] i'm in a sourrounding area of a small city in a rural department. [23:46:28] i'm in a sourrounding area of a small city in a very rural department. [23:46:47] i'm in a village of the subrub area of a small city in a very rural department. [23:47:49] And I'm definitely not "privileged" at all (in terms of money). My privilege is only technical and knowledge [23:48:21] Neither do I and I access the Internet through the data plan on my phone. 🤷‍♀ I don't have access to the connection in my apartment because I couldn't afford the router when they wired the apartments. (re @Philippe: I also don't have a lot of money. I can pay my fiber subscribtion and my phone subscription in a bundle (not lot of gigabytes on my phone, in fact I don't even use them, most data is from home on the fiber)) [23:48:50] in France routers are given by the operator, with the subscription. [23:48:59] Not here. [23:50:15] We seem to be in similar instances, yet have very different views about these issues. [23:50:27] So for fiber (unmetered)+mobile (unlimited calls and SMS + 15Gigabytes/month) I pay less than 30° euros/month [23:50:35] So for fiber (unmetered)+mobile (unlimited calls and SMS + 15Gigabytes/month) I pay less than 30 euros/month [23:50:57] So for fiber (unmetered at 1Gbps/700Mbps)+mobile (unlimited calls and SMS + 15Gigabytes/month) I pay less than 30 euros/month [23:51:10] So for fiber (unmetered at 1Gbps/700Mbps)+mobile (unlimited calls and SMS + 15Gigabytes/month with 4G network) I pay less than 30 euros/month [23:52:41] (Only 3 more years til I'm not saddled with marital debt anymore 🥳 Never get married folx. Or choose better than I did 😝) [23:53:17] and if I had no computer, I would easily find a very decent one at ~80 euros (refurbished good quality commercial computers, often DELL) [23:54:10] 30 euros is a lot for some people, 80 even more so. [23:54:14] and if I had no computer, I would easily find a very decent one at ~80 euros (refurbished good quality commercial computers, often DELL, with 3GHz multicore processor, 4GB RAM, and a fast HDD). Tablets are even cheaper... [23:54:42] Because you can afford it doesn't mean everyone can. [23:54:47] But I do not get any social benifigit to pay them. I could get it easily. [23:55:02] You are not everyone else though. [23:55:10] You are you. [23:56:10] None of us can know why someone else doesn't have access to 30 or 80 euros. [23:56:21] It's more difficult to get food, or find a home. I still pay by home (with some social benefit). [23:57:16] We can see their situation through our own situation, which is likely to mean we don't understand their situation at all. That's when the judgement calls come in to play. [23:57:18] You cant live today in France without a phone and internet. That's why there are so many helps [23:58:07] No, all my neighbours are in critical financial situations and still they all have a mobile internet access. [23:59:03] They just don't use it as much as they could, I pass lot of time to help them. [23:59:22] They just don't use it as much as they could, I pass lot of time to help them, and show them what they can do.