[00:00:10] That first part is judgemental. (re @Philippe: They just don't use it as much as they could, I pass lot of time to help them, and show them what they can do.) [00:00:19] They all have a PC, often several ones (I helped them to install it, I help them maintaining them) [00:00:39] No that's factual, not judgemental. [00:01:05] 🎵et si tu n'existais pas🎵 (re @Philippe: They all have a PC, often several ones (I helped them to install it, I help them maintaining them)) [00:01:32] "admin", you're just kidding me, out of topic. [00:01:33] You want them to use it a certain way for certain things, not what they are using it for. That's judgmental. [00:02:16] It's great that you help them out when they need it. [00:02:38] If you take some precious time that others of the sort Kim defends may not have and think about it, the reference to the Joe Dassin song will make sense (re @Philippe: "admin", you're just kidding me, out of topic.) [00:03:25] No I do not monitor what they do, I don't tell them what they can do. I can show them what I do if they ask. They know perfectly how to use Google, Youtube, or download music. I help them when they search something, or don't know how to setup their online accounts and secure them. [00:06:20] You've said in this convo alone multiple times that they could and should be using their mobiles for something else other than being on FB or social media. [00:06:46] Another thing I do is to collect computing hardware found in dustbins: many of them are perfectly usable, with very few things to repair. I reinstall the OS, change some RAM. With two old PCs I can create a new one. [00:07:33] We all have blind spots. Mine is not understanding how people don't pick up Finnish in a year since I found it easy to learn when I moved here. [00:07:49] 👍👍 (re @Philippe: Another thing I do is to collect computing hardware found in dustbins: many of them are perfectly usable, with very few things to repair. I reinstall the OS, change some RAM. With two old PCs I can create a new one.) [00:07:50] Another thing I do is to collect computing hardware found in dustbins: many of them are perfectly usable, with very few things to repair. I reinstall the OS, change some RAM. With two old PCs I can create a new one. And finally it's given, fully configured, performant, and ready with applications that people want to use. [00:09:07] many associations do that in France: it's incredible the quanrtity of hardware you can refurbish at very low cost (or no cost except time to donate) [00:09:25] many associations do that in France: it's incredible the quantity of hardware you can refurbish at very low cost (or no cost except time to donate). [00:12:39] Oof. So much going on here. [00:12:49] And when I donate the PC to someone, I install it with user's accounts configured with them. That's something you won't find in a shop (or it will be costly). I do that in their home, with their preferences (I show them some relevant choices). I give back also notes so they remember their settings, and configure also the 2FA (iof they ever forget their infos). [00:13:15] We all have blind spots. One of mine is not understanding how people don't pick up Finnish in a year since I found it easy to learn when I moved here. [00:13:21] First, speaking as a second generation immigrant, the assumption that I should be helping my "home culture" develop is highly problematic. [00:13:38] 🎵I'm holding out for a hero till the end of the night🎵 (re @Philippe: And when I donate the PC to someone, I install it with user's accounts configured with them. That's something you won't find in a shop (or it will be costly). I do that in their home, with their preferences (I show them some relevant choices). I give back also notes so they remember their settings, and configure also the 2FA (iof they ever forget thei [00:13:44] why is it problematic to help your native culture ? [00:14:38] This is not in opposition with you integration, this is complementary and will help your community to be integrated with better mutual comprehension. [00:15:11] We love foreign cultures as long as we can understand them and exchange. [00:15:19] And we have pandora's box. [00:15:20] maybe you can wait for an answer to your question before trying to argue against it? (re @Philippe: This is not in opposition with you integration, this is complementary and will help your community to be integrated with better mutual comprehension.) [00:15:32] (not that it’s Denny’s responsibility to educate you, tbqh) [00:15:49] https://tools-static.wmflabs.org/bridgebot/0f5dc6ae/mp4.mp4 [00:17:22] Visibly you are just kidding me. I started with a serious consideration, you deviate on personal judgements [00:17:55] For some reason, people in Croatia are not very fond of people who have left their country telling them how to do things better at home [00:18:08] This would sound more serious if you uttered this more than an hour ago (re @Philippe: Visibly you are just kidding me. I started with a serious consideration, you deviate on personal judgements) [00:21:11] In some countries, you're not even considered as being part of that "home culture" once you're second generation. Then you're just interferring as a foreigner :D (re @vrandecic: For some reason, people in Croatia are not very fond of people who have left their country telling them how to do things better at home) [00:21:29] Denny: Croatian is problematic in Wikimedia, with lot of nationalism from the home country (and lot of conflicts even there). This is wellknown that Croatian Wikipedia is definitely not open and severely biased by political influence (far from WM goals). It has been told many times in other spaces (like Meta). [00:22:29] Right. And yet, other countries are also not particularly fond of being told by those who left what to do. [00:22:39] But when a language does not even have a basic support for use at home, I don't see why "foreigners" from the same culture can't help at all: that's just bootstrapping needed to allow the home community to start working [00:22:54] Maybe, maybe not [00:23:09] I was the one who provided that bootstrapping to the Croatian Wikipedia [00:23:18] You just brought up where this lead [00:23:24] So there we are [00:24:09] So you are unhappy that now there's a strong Croatian community "at home" with a different point of view? [00:24:26] So you are unhappy that now there's a strong Croatian community "at home" with a different point of view than yours? [00:25:07] the problem in Croatian Wikiepdia is not a problem of opinions, but a problem of fact checking and loack of openness. [00:25:32] I'm glad that you have looked deeply in the situation at the Croatian Wikipedia and understood it [00:26:42] and also I advocate for the reunification of Serbo-Croatian with mutual understanding and shared goals, even if there is diversity (as advocated by the call signed by Noam Chomsky) [00:26:52] the problem in Croatian Wikiepdia is not a problem of opinions, but a problem of fact checking and lack of openness. [00:27:19] I'm surprised and happy to hear that the problem was a problem of fact checking, and not eg a group of admins who have, among other things, used heavy socking to attack potential members of the community and to turn votes in their favor [00:27:28] Thanks for educating me [00:28:19] the role of a few WP.HR admins forcing the bias, and excluding many people is also problematic. [00:29:11] But here also Abstract Wikipedia, and Wikidata can help by gluing the project back to international shared goals with diversity in mind. [00:29:59] the role of a few WP.HR admins forcing the political bias, and excluding many people is also problematic. [00:30:44] Well, I'm confident you might figure out one of my motivations for working on Abstract Wikipedia, instead of advocating the unification of the south slavic language editions. [00:30:53] I have no problem if people have opposite political opinions. They should coexist. And I think it is possible to conciliate. [00:31:24] But let's unwind a few levels: [00:31:49] (something impossible with the initiator of this discussion, as it were) (re @vrandecic: But let's unwind a few levels:) [00:31:50] I'm not sure that a diaspora community makes for a great seed for a language Wikipedia [00:32:04] Here are a few reasons: [00:33:34] People who emigrated to a different culture and country are often not the most representatives of the culture and country they left [00:34:54] Their contribution to a living project is likely to be a good thing, but seeding a project in such an environment might introduce a bias to the project that might estrange it from the people still embedded in that country or culture [00:35:33] I think the opposite: it is a seed, but not an exclusive one: it will have to be prepared for other opinions. The diaspora exists as well and has a legitimate right to heve their culture recognized and developed (even if it's differently than for people that remained "at home": both "home" and diaspora community should live together. And Wikimedia is focused on languages, not countries or specific regions. [00:36:07] There will always be a bias if you choose only one community to have the right to exist [00:36:49] In fact it is impossible to live in an unbiased environment, everyone has a biased opinion. That's why we need diversity. [00:37:19] In fact it is impossible to live in an unbiased environment, everyone has a biased opinion. That's why we need diversity. And Wikimedia should tech people to live in that diversity. [00:37:37] And that's why intentionally seeding such a language community in the diaspora is problematic [00:38:45] Especially if it gives them other advantages, eg in terms of internet access, or timezones, etc [00:38:47] this will ALWAYS be the case for any bootstrap, made "at home" or from abroad. We want competition, not unfruitful battles that maintain the initial 'de facto' bias [00:38:59] I don't want competition [00:39:04] I want cooperation [00:39:45] Also, Wikipedia contributions are a niche activity [00:40:36] There are, I dunno, 60-100 Million native speakers of German or French, respectively, maybe more [00:40:58] And, I dunno, 5-6000 active contributors in those languages [00:41:19] So every contributor is rare and special [00:41:28] It's a one in ten thousand thing [00:41:57] It's a thing people do in their free time [00:43:44] They do that instead of facetime their family "at home", or watch Game of Thrones, or Uber, or whatever [00:44:13] And it's their choice; no one has forced them. [00:44:25] Exactly [00:45:01] See now I want to see a voice-activated interface for Wikipedia so I can contribute while being an Uber driver (re @vrandecic: They do that instead of facetime their family "at home", or watch Game of Thrones, or Uber, or whatever) [00:45:42] You'll get into an edit war with your passenger and risk that minimum five star rating [00:45:50] See now I want to (hear) a voice-activated interface for Wikipedia so I can contribute while being an Uber driver (re @vrandecic: They do that instead of facetime their family "at home", or watch Game of Thrones, or Uber, or whatever) [00:46:00] Dystopian situations are so easy to write [00:46:14] As long as everyone agrees that his own contributions ARE biased, and that other views are possible, and Wikimedia maintains this right for diversity, there should be no problem. There are more than 60 million people speaking French in France, and at least 15-20 millions abroad. French Wikipedia advocates for inclusion of topics initiated by other countries (even from countries where it is a minority). When articles are too m [00:47:18] By the way, I'm a first generation emigrant, but my parents were already emigrants from another country, which makes me a second generation emigrant... I guess? Language is a bit imprecise here (re @WMYupik: In some countries, you're not even considered as being part of that "home culture" once you're second generation. Then you're just interferring as a foreigner :D) [00:47:26] Speaking a language and being able to contribute to a wp article are two greatly different things. [00:48:33] Why not having Wikipedia sections for migrants, with their own needs? [00:48:42] I'll sign that (re @WMYupik: Speaking a language and being able to contribute to a wp article are two greatly different things.) [00:48:45] Why not having Wikipedia sections for migrants, with their own needs and explicit goals? [00:48:52] This sounds like my family 😂 we don't even try to explain it. (re @vrandecic: By the way, I'm a first generation emigrant, but my parents were already emigrants from another country, which makes me a second generation emigrant... I guess? Language is a bit imprecise here) [00:49:20] You mean, their own chapters or user groups? (re @Philippe: Why not having Wikipedia sections for migrants, with their own needs and explicit goals?) [00:49:44] user groups would be fine; chapters overkill. [00:52:13] note that English Wikipedia had to split itself by creating a "Simple English" edition to try eliminate the "quality standard" barrier. We have Wikipedia for kids. That's a valid goal. There's also the Serbo-Croatian wikipedia trying to remove some modern national barriers. [00:52:38] That's not why Simple Wikipedia was created [00:53:06] Simple Wikipedia is not Wikipedia for kids [00:53:30] The Basques' Txikipedia is, though (re @lucaswerkmeister: Simple Wikipedia is not Wikipedia for kids) [00:53:48] There is no Wikipedia for kids, unless you mean KLexikon, which is not a Wikimedia project [00:53:50] Also as a rule, Wikipedia should not tolerate admin status on more than one wiki: they'll have to conciliate on MetaWiki, And MEtaWik ishould have its own separate admins. [00:53:55] as is Klexikon (not WMF-run). I didn't say they don't exist [00:54:34] (this was a reply to Mahir, chat is moving too fast ^^) (re @lucaswerkmeister: as is Klexikon (not WMF-run). I didn't say they don't exist) [00:55:26] Philippe, you are jumping around, and having very strong opinions on many different topics (re @Philippe: Also as a rule, Wikipedia should not tolerate admin status on more than one wiki: they'll have to conciliate on MetaWiki, And MEtaWik ishould have its own separate admins.) [00:55:38] Noted, although the concept of separate spaces for kids is not foreign to Wikimedia projects and thus there is precedent for more (re @lucaswerkmeister: (this was a reply to Mahir, chat is moving too fast ^^)) [00:55:47] Wikijunior: hosted in Wikibooks [00:55:58] Is a removal from this group necessary yet? (re @vrandecic: Philippe, you are jumping around, and having very strong opinions on many different topics) [00:56:12] I don't think so [00:58:27] Note that proposing a limitation of adminship would solve the problem in a significant way: no one would get an exclusive role, this creates a condition for diversity (even if this requires multiple wikis). But may be on the same wiki, there's a way to segregate sections on which admins can act. [00:58:55] I've been adding in a separate section for schoolkids at the end of articles in the Inari Saami wp to see if it's useful in the long run. I've been linking in their teacher's material there. (re @mahir256: Noted, although the concept of separate spaces for kids is not foreign to Wikimedia projects and thus there is precedent for more) [01:00:30] Note that creating Abstract Wikipedia will also create a new bootstrap condition and a bias. That's why it should not be a required tool applied by force to other Wikipedias. Wikidata also has a biased view. [01:01:10] Note that creating Abstract Wikipedia will also create a new bootstrap condition and a bias. That's why it should not be a required tool applied by force to other Wikipedias. Wikidata also has a biased view (compeltely following the English Wikipedia model, then reapplied on Commons). [01:03:48] However Commons is well guided by the fact it hosts many photos (i.e. material facts). The bias in Commons is small (even if some topics are overpopulated compared to others, these minor topics are covered) [01:05:48] I like Compons by the fact it is multilingual (still not enough). But it's difficult to keep a strong political bias trying to eradicate other topics. [01:06:24] I like Commons by the fact it is multilingual (still not enough). But it's difficult to keep a strong political bias trying to eradicate other topics. [01:06:57] I like Commons by the fact it is multilingual (still not enough). But it's difficult to keep a strong political bias trying to eradicate other topics. And it has a smaller technical or quality barrier. [01:07:32] I'm seconding this, it's exhausting trying to follow this discussion. Why are we talking about Commons now? (re @vrandecic: Philippe, you are jumping around, and having very strong opinions on many different topics) [01:08:27] Because Commons would be a central part as well in Abstract Wikipedia, already multicultural and covering lot of topics, and well connectd with Wikidata. [01:08:58] Because Commons would be a central part as well in Abstract Wikipedia, already multicultural and covering lot of topics, and well connected with Wikidata, even if there's small or no coverage in English Wikipedia or other "national" wikis. [01:10:59] Because Commons would be a central part as well in Abstract Wikipedia, already multicultural and covering lot of topics, and well connected with Wikidata, even if there's small or no coverage in English Wikipedia or other "national" wikis. An image often tells many things that are hard to write with sentences. It is very synthetic and centered on isolated facts that can be sorted and searched easily. It is a ric h source of d [01:11:45] The stuff in Commons from archives often uses racist terminology that was used when the images were taken. [01:12:22] Do you speak about image descriptions (in some languages)? [01:12:36] Commons is not unproblematic and is a lot less diverse than it looks like. [01:12:52] Descriptions, file names, etc. [01:13:40] For multiple topics, we only have the racist stuff. [01:14:29] Not all communities want to be in Commons. [01:15:00] The problems are substantial. [01:17:01] I tolerate racist images as long as they are not exclusive. You can compare facts and free to make your opinion. I don't care much about filenames, they are random in most cases. And really problematic ones (that violate the respect policies) will be dropped. The best way to limit their influcen is to populate them in their categories. Racism exists, so we have to speak about it, ignoring/erasing it does not solve the problem [01:17:29] I tolerate racist images as long as they are not exclusive. You can compare facts and free to make your opinion. I don't care much about filenames, they are random in most cases. And really problematic ones (that violate the respect policies and laws) will be dropped. The best way to limit their influences is to populate them in their categories. Racism exists, so we have to speak about it, ignoring/erasing it does not solve [01:18:44] Yeah, I'm not touching that with a ten-foot pole. [01:30:12] Well I'm leaving this channel now. It was inactive for a while, I initiated it for something that could be useful and beside those kidding me instead of talking on topic, thre was a good exchange of opinions about the goals of Wikimedia and the need of diversity (which is one of the reasons for which Abstract Wikipedia is needed) and removal of technical or quality barriers, and the role of Wikimedia, in a constant search to [01:35:29] I would prefer not to read something like this again, please (re @mahir256: Ok Jean-Marie) [01:35:52] Very well, sorry about that (re @vrandecic: I would prefer not to read something like this again, please) [01:36:56] Thanks