[17:56:41] Welcome logbot2 [17:57:31] hi! [17:57:41] logbot2 - can we name you something better? [17:57:47] Will try [18:01:20] OK, we got logs now [18:01:24] http://prototype.wikimedia.org/logs/ [18:07:29] Whee [18:08:24] Well [18:08:34] !help [18:08:34] --elephant-- Hi! I'm mwbot, a bot that was quickly whipped up by Daniel Cannon (AmiDaniel) to help out around #mediawiki. There's not much documentation on me, but you can find all my source code at http://amidaniel.com/viewvc/trunk/MWBot/?root=svn [18:08:53] !welcome is Welcome to the Usability Initiative! [18:08:53] --elephant-- You don't have permission to do that. [18:08:56] Argh [18:09:09] @trust wikimedia/Catrope [18:09:16] !welcome is Welcome to the Usability Initiative! [18:09:16] --elephant-- You don't have permission to do that. [18:09:31] I wonder how you got it to trust you again [18:09:58] hey [18:10:02] i'm in [18:10:05] Welcome [18:10:07] HI! [18:10:09] thanx [18:10:23] hello elephant [18:10:25] @trusted [18:10:25] --elephant-- [wikipedia/AmiDaniel] [18:10:31] lol [18:10:51] is s/he a bot? [18:11:30] Yeah [18:11:38] http://prototype.wikimedia.org/logs/%23wikipedia_usability/20090616.txt [18:12:31] i suspected so [18:12:45] but i didn't want to be rude [18:12:50] it is so cool! [18:14:34] It's hardcoded to only trust AmiDaniel (its creator), though, asking Brent how he worked around that [18:15:42] so these chat logs do not appear in recent changes right? [18:16:04] i see it doesn't but wanted to be sure [18:17:25] @trusted [18:17:25] --elephant-- [wikipedia/AmiDaniel] [18:17:28] :( [18:18:04] @trusted [18:18:04] --elephant-- [wikipedia/AmiDaniel] [18:20:18] @trusted [18:20:18] --elephant-- [wikipedia/AmiDaniel] [18:20:26] @trust wikimedia/Catrope [18:20:30] @trusted [18:20:30] --elephant-- [wikipedia/AmiDaniel] [18:20:38] *sigh* [18:29:06] FINALLY [18:29:12] @trusted [18:29:12] --elephant-- [wikimedia/Catrope] [18:29:26] TrevorParscal: You asked what this bot can do.... [18:29:36] !welcome is Welcome to the Usability Initiative! [18:29:36] --elephant-- Successfully added keyword: welcome [18:29:39] !welcome [18:29:39] --elephant-- Welcome to the Usability Initiative! [18:29:43] !welcome | TrevorParscal [18:29:43] --elephant-- TrevorParscal: Welcome to the Usability Initiative! [18:29:48] I love it! [18:30:38] !compliment is You're a ninja! [18:30:38] --elephant-- You don't have permission to do that. [18:30:40] what else can it say? [18:30:43] hey! [18:30:49] Whatever you teach it [18:30:54] I just taught it to do: [18:30:55] only Roan can teach it [18:30:57] !b 12345 [18:30:57] --elephant-- https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12345 [18:31:03] that rocks! [18:31:12] cool [18:31:19] @trust c-67-170-206-100.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [18:31:19] --elephant-- Added c-67-170-206-100.hsd1.ca.comcast.net to trusted hostnames list. [18:31:25] Now Trevor can teach it too [18:31:39] @trust adsl-70-137-172-57.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net [18:31:39] --elephant-- Added adsl-70-137-172-57.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net to trusted hostnames list. [18:31:52] !compliment is You're a ninja! [18:31:52] --elephant-- Successfully added keyword: compliment [18:32:03] !compliment RoanKattouw [18:32:03] --elephant-- You're a ninja! [18:32:25] !compliment | RoanKattouw [18:32:25] --elephant-- RoanKattouw: You're a ninja! [18:32:32] sweet! [18:32:47] really neat [18:32:51] It also does parameterized stuff like [18:32:54] !e is http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:`e1 [18:32:54] --elephant-- Successfully added keyword: e [18:32:59] !e UsabilityInititative [18:32:59] --elephant-- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:UsabilityInititative [18:33:19] So, sandbox is all upgraded and seems to be working [18:33:21] http://prototype.wikimedia.org/s/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=edit [18:33:49] Upgraded to what? SVN HEAD? [18:33:58] yes [18:34:39] i will go and look! [18:34:45] So now we just gotta lock down this channel and the logs [18:34:47] ? [18:35:18] I don't think we need to - nkomura? [18:35:47] TrevorParscal: Can you please do /msg ChanServ register #wikipedia_usability ? [18:35:49] what do you mean by locking down? [18:36:09] Well, do we want all this stuff to be confidential/private ? [18:37:15] i don't think it needs to be private [18:37:24] right on [18:37:25] people can drop by and chat [18:37:43] OK [18:37:54] Has anyone made a log-viewer for the output of mwbot? [18:38:06] Yes, Splarka has [18:38:38] RoanKattouw: irc.freenode.net says I'm not logged in... [18:38:39] hmm [18:38:58] TrevorParscal: In that case please /op RoanKattouw [18:39:23] TrevorParscal: me loves the new version of Sandbox [18:39:34] Thanks [18:39:37] i will send some traffic there [18:40:50] ok - I'm logged in now [18:42:53] RoanKattouw: so, about the security testing [18:43:00] Yeah [18:43:19] do you know of any existing security concerns? [18:43:42] Server config-wise or software-wise [18:43:44] ? [18:43:46] Our wikis are pretty well locked down as far as avoiding vandals [18:43:55] Ah wiki-config wise :) [18:44:03] I guess gnereally [18:44:06] Yeah, they've got captchas and everything [18:44:41] I'm wondering if there is a suite of security tests.. [18:44:51] Based on the testing culture in the org... I'm guessing not [18:44:55] No [18:45:19] The basic idea is to just attract editors and see what happens :) [18:45:20] it is important we test all the new javascript you guys wrote [18:45:43] javascript can be a security hole [18:46:00] so, the scripts don't communicate with the server... [18:47:00] but it talks to PHP which talks to the server, no? [18:47:16] nope, it's all alone on the server [18:47:34] the PHP generates a little bit of it (just the messages) and we include some static files [18:47:56] We have no AJAX (yet) [18:47:58] the rest happens in an isolated space (the client) without communicating back to the server [18:48:01] Correct [18:48:09] AJAX has lots of security concerns [18:48:25] I'm thinking about what problems we could run into though... [18:48:27] got it [18:48:37] Most browsers enforce a same-origin policy [18:49:01] Which means scripts coming from prototype.wikimedia.org cannot AJAX to other servers, not even *.wikimedia.org [18:49:28] yeah, anything we are doing could be tweaked with something like grease monkey, but it can't affect other users cause there is no 2 way communication going on yet [18:51:36] So, I'm interested in finding any areas which there are security problems... [18:51:44] But I'm not seeing any yet [18:52:58] What are you poking at right now Roan? [18:53:18] I'm talking to Brion about some security implications in LocalisationUpdate [18:53:42] I reviewed the code earlier today and cleaned up lots of stuff per GerardM's request [18:54:11] He asked me to enable it on prototype but 1) nkomura said no and 2) there's code in there that's a little bit scary [18:54:12] right on [18:54:18] Yes, good to have him back! [18:55:05] RoanKattouw: 2) that's good to know :) [18:55:35] I'm going to take a little lunch break in a min... [18:55:57] The security hole is pretty hard to exploit, but if you succeed you can do very scary stuff [18:58:50] TrevorParscal: Once you get back (or now, if you're still there), could you give me a basic rundown of what you guys want out of the opt-in special page? [18:59:43] Oh - well, the page would have a pretty picture (screenshot) and some text which explains in a sentence what the user is opting into/out of [18:59:55] and a large button - but the graphics I can provide later [19:00:20] what we need is a form that can opt in / out by changing specific settings in the users' prefs [19:01:27] Right now that means change the skin to vector, enable the edit toolbar (usually done by default, but we need this to get checked when they opt in) and enable the enhanced toolbar as well [19:01:44] but, the way prefs works now [19:02:13] it should be setup as an array of pref ids, and on/off values [19:02:27] Yeah [19:02:28] which just get saved [19:02:37] that way we can configure it later [19:02:51] OK so basically it's just a button and a i18n message above it [19:03:23] yup [19:03:25] i'm thinking of a quick survey for people opting out [19:03:35] that's an awesome idea [19:03:39] i don't mean to complicate the implementatoin [19:03:39] Yeah [19:03:48] but good to catch the reason why they are leaving [19:03:50] like 3 questions like, why are you opting out, what what your impression, etc [19:03:56] I'll leave it out initially [19:04:01] But it should be easy to add later [19:04:02] no worries [19:04:23] yeah does not need to be ready for the initial launch [19:16:51] What do we wanna call this? Special:OptIn or what? [19:22:28] Yeah, that would work [19:24:53] !class is See http://svn.wikimedia.org/doc/class`e1.html [19:24:53] --elephant-- Successfully added keyword: class [19:27:45] !class Database [19:27:45] --elephant-- See http://svn.wikimedia.org/doc/classDatabase.html [19:28:06] !class Xml [19:28:06] --elephant-- See http://svn.wikimedia.org/doc/classXml.html [19:28:18] lovely! [19:28:40] Yeah those two are very useful; Database has recently moved to DatabaseBase, BTW [19:28:52] thats the worse named class [19:28:56] Yeah [19:29:02] what's the point / who did that? [19:29:27] ok - going to eat lunch :) [19:29:31] be back soon [19:30:49] Argh, X server crashed and took pretty much all my OptIn work with it :( [19:31:30] Simetrical did that because Database contained too much MySQL-specific stuff, so he decided to abstract DatabaseBase and keep Database == DatabaseMySql for back compat [19:48:00] I see [19:48:16] well, it seems like we could have come up with something better for a name :( [19:48:18] anyways [19:48:42] I have to take mel to the clinic really quick [19:49:10] She was going to alone, but they are going to draw blood and she's afraid she might be a bit light-headed driving home [19:49:38] I'll be back in about 45mins [19:49:52] RoanKattouw: what time will you be logging off? [19:50:14] In about 2 hrs I think [19:50:49] Good luck to Mel at the clinic [19:51:09] :) [19:51:11] cya soon [20:22:35] nkomura, TrevorParscal: OptIn finished and live @ http://prototype.wikimedia.org/en.wikipedia.org/Special:OptIn [20:23:21] cool! [20:23:23] (also try viewing it while logged out)( [20:24:49] The effect is kinda lost on a wiki that has Vector as the default skin, but I can confirm that it switches skins immediately on my test wiki [20:25:34] yeah it is hard to see the behavioral change [20:25:42] but once we are on test.wikipedia.org [20:25:48] we can see the difference [20:26:21] Yeah [20:26:26] just to confirm this opt-in/opt-out enables and disables both Vector and the new toolbar right [20:26:26] ? [20:26:32] Yes [20:26:39] Switching computers, brb [20:26:39] kewl [20:34:49] OK, I'm back [20:35:58] hey [20:36:04] I'll quickly switch the prototype to monobook for a while so you can better appreciate what it looks like [20:36:21] will have a look [20:37:21] oh i guess it was not ready yet [20:37:27] let me know when to look :) [20:37:31] OK, try it now [20:38:03] back to old wiki... [20:39:00] For the heck of it, log out and go to http://prototype.wikimedia.org/en.wikipedia.org/Special:OptIn [20:39:12] I made it so that you automatically get back to the opt-in page after logging in [20:39:31] opt-out still shows the new toolbar... [20:39:48] Yes, that's because it's still globally enabled [20:39:52] Fixing [20:40:31] Try now [20:40:35] k [20:41:19] monobook skin + old toolbar confirmed [20:42:12] nice!!! [20:43:20] Unless you wanna look around more, I'm gonna put the old settings back [20:43:43] sure [20:43:45] thanks [20:43:56] Old settings are back now [20:44:01] got it [20:44:11] i'll be on the call ... [20:51:31] In case nobody told you, Trevor and I have a schematic thingy of stuff we need to do and its status at http://collab.wikimedia.org/wiki/Trevor-Roan_Connect/ToDo [20:54:02] trevor mentioned it [20:54:15] i'm glad to see you have a place to share the status [21:00:04] RoanKattouw: too bad you are not here in the week of OSCON [21:00:17] What's that? [21:00:18] you would have enjoyed it [21:00:27] And which week is that? :) [21:00:28] open source conference by o'reilly [21:00:54] http://en.oreilly.com/oscon2009 [21:12:14] I'm back [21:12:30] everything OK? [21:13:37] Yes, they had to do a glucose something test [21:13:48] good [21:13:52] She's usually borderline diabetic while pregnant, so they just keep an eye on it [21:13:57] TrevorParscal: Welcome back; http://prototype.wikimedia.org/en.wikipedia.org/Special:OptIn [21:14:12] usually? I thought you only had one kid? [21:14:24] yeah roan showed me how it works on prototype [21:14:37] awesome [21:14:47] RoanKattouw: trevor and melissa are expecting the second baby [21:14:49] I'm not gonna demo the skin change thing again, Trevor'll just have to believe us ) [21:14:56] Yeah so I got that right [21:15:15] ha [21:15:19] i confirmed it working [21:15:19] Seemed kinda weird to me to say usually when it's the second time, so I thought maybe this was the third [21:15:38] Yes, the default skin and toolbar override configs make the opt-in out not seem to work, but I know it's doing it's thing [21:16:00] we really need move to test.wikipedia.org [21:16:16] TrevorParscal: i hope you and brion can synch up on that tomorrow [21:16:26] Yes, that's the plan afaik [21:17:05] i want to ask you guys one more thing (before many i am sure) re QA [21:17:20] we will need to create a platform matrix [21:17:27] OS x browser combinations [21:17:40] and when we ask the community to help to test [21:17:48] they can tell us which combination they test [21:18:26] i want to create a combination table at least for IE. FF, Safari, possibly chrome and opera [21:18:32] but the last two are low priority [21:18:37] versions of browsers are important too [21:18:44] which is like... a 3rd dimension kind of.. [21:18:47] right [21:18:56] so that will be the third dimension [21:19:02] it is not a trivial [21:19:08] Or just do browsers = {IE6, IE7, FF2, FF3, ... } [21:19:26] RoanKattouw: probably the easiest way to do it in 2d for sure [21:19:56] we need to spot check IE5 too [21:20:08] So, for each browser OS combo (columns) we have features (rows) and we verify they are supported [21:20:17] Yes [21:20:17] sound about right? [21:20:40] right [21:20:42] Should this be on collab at first and then our public wiki once we get the ball rolling a bit? [21:21:46] Does it hurt to have a page on usabilitywiki that no one knows exists? [21:21:52] i.e. isn't linked from anywhere [21:22:23] it is fine to create on public wiki [21:22:27] ok [21:22:28] folks out there may help us [21:22:32] let me get that started then [21:23:25] TrevorParscal brion is asking what time you want to meet [21:24:01] After lunch is good [21:24:12] we can go eat together and he can follow us back to our office? [21:37:23] ok i'm back [21:38:11] TrevorParscal: sounds like a good idea [21:38:26] a quick reminder: I won't be around for the rest of the week after today [21:39:01] Undestood [21:53:36] G-calendar down. twitter down [21:56:41] RoanKattouw: you going to bed soon? [21:57:25] Soonish... [21:57:28] Staying up for a bit [22:03:02] localization is not caught up yet [22:04:07] Of what? [22:04:32] of the toolbar and vector [22:04:42] japanese looks pretty good already [22:04:47] Yeah [22:12:55] http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Releases/Acai/Compatibility_Matrix [22:15:06] nice [22:15:26] how did you do the bar chart in wiki table? [22:15:40] HTML [22:15:43] and Magic! [22:16:06] it is a magic [22:16:56] it makes me feel better that we can focus our effort in FF3 and IE6/7 [22:17:47] lol, bar chart with CSS [22:18:26] Looking good [22:19:03] nkomura: From what I've seen, keeping IE6 happy is most of the work in practice [22:19:30] do you mean as a lowest denominator? [22:20:06] No, I mean IE6 tends to break most things :P [22:20:16] i see [22:20:27] This is just judging from SVN summaries over the past two years, which curse IE6 a lot [22:20:34] Yeah, the thing is too - operating systems rarely expose unique bugs in the same browser - but those are always the bugs which are toughest catch [22:20:51] do we care to put OS combo in the mix ? [22:21:13] IE6 doubles the amount of knowledge a web developer needs to have to succeed :) [22:21:35] so it makes you tougher ;) [22:21:40] yes! [22:21:49] so i am ok not putting OS combo in the mix for now [22:21:50] ok - so not all browsers are on all platforms [22:22:17] we can test on all platforms, and if we start seeing differences, we can make the chart a little different to capture it [22:22:46] http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp [22:23:19] 88.8% windows [22:23:38] argh.. [22:23:41] *TrevorParscal cries [22:24:03] what is W2003? [22:24:12] was there a such OS? [22:24:21] Windows Server 2003 I think [22:24:29] i see [22:24:40] server admins browsing the internet instead of working [22:24:47] ha! [22:24:48] :) heh heh heh [22:25:01] mac has more than trippled their distribution share since 03 [22:25:22] Linux is growing a bit more slowly [22:25:36] yeah despite my effort using ubuntu ;) [22:26:12] as you said not all browsers are supported by each platform [22:26:18] yes [22:26:21] we need to differentiate [22:26:27] but it can wait till later [22:26:55] let's confirm the browser compatibility first and then we can move on to the next level of granularity [22:27:18] on a separate note, i will be inviting WMF staff to have a look at our prototypes [22:31:24] cool [22:31:48] http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Releases [22:33:35] thanks for making that page [22:33:51] no problem [22:34:01] I'm sure there much more information about both releases we could add [22:40:53] Is parul feeling better? [22:42:47] no [22:42:54] she was feeling worse this morning [22:43:00] :( [22:43:08] What does she have? [22:43:12] she said she will try work, but i encouraged her to rest [22:43:18] sounds like a cold or flu [22:43:20] yeah, rest is good [22:43:25] that's no fun [22:43:28] no [22:44:34] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?useskin=vector [22:44:46] Very good to see it in action on the REAL site [22:45:08] it only works if you manually append the useskin=vector parameter though [22:45:16] it goes away when you click links [22:45:18] what happened here? [22:45:27] oh [22:45:53] nice trick [22:46:25] yeah - they updated the code aprently [22:46:33] that [22:46:43] that's a promising sign :) [22:46:43] but I made sure they hid the settings from the preferences [22:46:57] yeah, I guess that means the skin has passed code review :) [22:46:59] ha ha [22:47:04] yay! [22:47:08] high five! [22:47:19] we can probably get our site to use Vector by default now [22:47:22] I will email fred [22:47:42] that'll be so cool [22:47:55] btw what is the name of our toolbar extension? [22:48:01] EditToolbar [22:48:07] thanks [22:48:20] trying to find that in betawiki [22:48:36] its actually a module of the UsabilityInitiative extension [22:49:43] ok [22:49:56] i'm still trying to figure out how the translation framework works [22:50:11] so it will be a while before i can get around in betawiki.. [22:51:21] it's a bit of a maze i think [22:58:00] Damn, parsing PHP in PHP is hell :P [23:00:55] OK guys it's 1 AM here, I'm off to bed [23:01:29] If either of you could e-mail me some questions for a post-opt-out survey I'll implement it tomorrow [23:02:31] good night