[17:35:08] <^demon> parutron: Hey. Several of us got to looking at the various plans for the Babaco designs and a few questions came up. [17:35:45] of course! [17:35:54] <^demon> 1) What's the major idea behind the right column? I can see it as being potentially very useful in editing mode, but I'm not seeing any major benefits in reading mode. To me (at least) it seems like it would squish the content. What (ideally) are we looking to put in this column that can't better be put elsewhere? [17:36:21] 1) as of right now we are ONLY using the right column in editing mode for that very reason. [17:36:48] we can imagine all kinds of uses for it in read mode, but as of right now there is no pressing need with our interests to pursue them. in editing mode, however, we feel like it will have a big impact. [17:37:10] <^demon> I can agree with that, it has a lot of potential uses in edit mode :) [17:37:28] YAY! [17:37:35] <^demon> And 2) The messages issue. I've tried to understand why this is a Usability Initiative issue. These templates are created by various wiki communities, not by MW itself. If these templates need improvement, then that should be done by the various wikis IMHO. We already have the ability to make them smaller and unintrusive, we're just not doing that yet. [17:37:42] also - i encourage you to contribute your thoughts and opinions on the discussion page: [17:37:53] http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Babaco_Designs [17:38:28] We conducted a Usability study in early march - some of which was open ended questions and some of which was specific tasks. [17:38:45] Part of our interest was seeing how people found, interacted with, and used discussion pages. [17:38:57] *^demon nods [17:39:21] Whether at our instruction or by chance, when our subjects (all non-editors) encountered discussion pages they were VERY turned off by the messages. [17:39:36] Almost all of them commented on the message "this is not a forum" that appears on many discussion pages. [17:39:53] We see the discussion pages and community as a major force behind Wikipedia and the editing process. [17:40:14] We do not want to encourage new editor into contributing without also being part of the valued community dialog. [17:40:30] So we consider being able to readily use the discussion pages important to the editing process. [17:40:36] <^demon> Gotcha. [17:41:02] Also - not all, but many of our subjects got to the discussion page and the entire contents were obscured by the volume of messages [17:41:10] Many did not make it to the content!!! [17:41:12] <^demon> Hehe, I know the feeling. [17:41:13] <^demon> Fixing those kinds of templates so they're less intrusive is an issue to take up on enwiki, I believe. They're rather fond of their "ZOMG READ ME NOW" templates all over the place :) [17:41:35] If you have any suggestions as to specific places to start a dialogue - I'd love to hear it. [17:41:55] It is not looking like such changes can happen in our next release (have to do more research and outreach).....but we'd like to get the ball rolling! [17:42:13] <^demon> Of course. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VPR would probably be a good place to start - it's the English Wikipedia proposals page. [17:42:27] ah - thank you so much!!!! [17:42:40] i have only started to use village pump. [17:43:31] <^demon> Of course. :) [17:43:38] look out for a post from me on the messages in the next week! [17:43:46] would love to have your thoughts expressed there too... [17:44:22] by the way ^demon - (how to put this kindly) - who are you? tee hee. [17:44:37] <^demon> ^demon on all WMF projects, volunteer dev. [17:44:46] <^demon> Real name is Chad :) [17:44:49] excellent to tele-meet you! [17:45:28] <^demon> Likewise. [21:50:55] calling the super/subscript 'baseline' isn't very intuitive, I had to click the buttons to figure out wtf that meant :P [21:51:06] TrevorParscal, parutron: Ideas for a better name? ---^^ [21:52:05] I don't know.. but don't mess with anything outside what's in EditToolbar.js much, cause I'm refactoring pretty hardcore [21:52:49] Can I mess with the order of the Hebrew chars? [21:53:21] parutron: poke, you around? [21:53:34] hi guys! [21:53:40] a bit caught up in something right now. [21:53:46] what's up? [21:53:46] RoanKattouw: yes [21:53:50] okie dokie [21:53:59] I am not touching the editToolbarConfiguration var at all [21:54:13] Great, that's pretty much the only thing I've been touching [21:54:22] Big time, though, might wanna svn up [21:54:27] parutron: I've been soliciting feedback from users, and the general response seems to be "too much negative space" -- a lot of users seem to want less space taken up by chrome and dead space. [21:54:32] Shrinks the file from 150K to 25K [21:54:37] parutron: (no need to respond now, you can wait a few days) [21:55:11] parutron: Also, I'm thinking of moving the header to the bottom of the post, that way we can combine in the reply button -- maybe that's a better compromise on the whole multiple-interaction-areas thing [21:55:57] RoanKattouw....if you couldn't figure it out, we've failed twice! [21:56:00] icon and working [21:56:03] wording [21:56:06] copy [21:56:08] "baseline" [21:56:27] werdna - i think it's a great idea to at least prototype out with the header at the bottom [21:56:35] i think the 3rd in my mockups did this. [21:56:43] parutron: *I* knew what it meant, this random guy in #mediawiki complained [21:56:55] hehe [21:57:08] werdna i'll look back on it and give it some thought [21:57:38] RoanKattouw: did you see the shell script to do the combine and min automatically? [21:57:39] parutron: yes, there's a mock with the header at the bottom, #3 and (maybe) #4 [21:57:50] TrevorParscal: Yeah, nice [21:57:54] :) [21:58:31] parutron: thanks, there's no rush, I've got some code review and internal yuckiness to rewrite, so I'm not idling if you can't get to it for a few days [21:58:43] great!