[01:10:06] Has the delayed loading of "Special characters" and "Help" been discussed? [01:13:21] i think so. [02:07:20] hey does anyone speak german? [09:39:35] RoanKattouw: Has the delayed loading of "Special characters" and "Help" been discussed? [09:39:55] And, inserting the cursor before things like "--~~~~" freaked me out a bit today. [09:40:31] What do you mean by the second? [09:40:43] Specialchars and help are being loaded in a delayed fashion [09:40:50] Not sure that's live on WP, though, lemme check [09:41:00] I noticed it on strategy.wiki. [09:41:20] Philippe said the delayed loading was delaying the cursor or something. [09:41:38] Yeah that doesn't look right [09:41:42] When you press the "sign your edit" button, the new toolbar places the cursor before the text, not after it. [09:41:44] Try enwp, it doesn't do it there [09:42:15] Hm [09:42:26] Not sure if that's intentional, I'll have to ask Trevor when he gets in [09:42:28] It's not a huge deal, but it did throw me off. [09:42:48] Y'know, I have no idea how to enable the new edit toolbar. [09:43:01] What on WP or your own wiki? [09:43:02] Do I have to opt-in to Beta? :-/ [09:43:06] WP. [09:43:06] Yes [09:43:15] Or enable it in your prefs (Editing section, near the bottom) [09:43:22] Opt-in to Beta also enables Vector for you [09:43:29] Right. That's what I want to avoid. ;-) [09:43:53] OK then you can enable it in your Editing prefs [09:44:00] *Annemarie nods. [09:44:03] Missed it in there. [09:44:52] WTF strategy and enwp are running the same rev [09:44:56] *RoanKattouw purges cache on both [09:45:21] Seems fine on en.wiki. [09:45:28] That is, it all loads at the same time. [09:45:54] Yes [09:46:03] Does so too after purging cache on strategy [09:46:22] We'll blame Philippe then. [09:46:35] Not his fault [09:46:52] Aww, I wanted to blame him. :-( [09:46:53] Dunno why this is happening exactly but someone needs to increment $wgEditToolbarStyleVersion on strategywiki [09:47:23] strategy.wiki is a goofy place. [09:55:55] 'tis a a silly place [16:22:04] *werdna waves TrevorParscal and such [16:22:16] hola! [16:22:38] you're not going to argentina, it's us who need to be practicing our spanish :) [16:29:19] yeah - how's yours btw? [16:29:26] not good [16:29:33] I have a colombian girl in the house who is teaching me [16:29:42] sweet! [16:41:11] *RoanKattouw feels like he's the only one not learning Spanish [16:44:02] oregon trail -> http://xkcd.com/ [16:44:03] TrevorParscal: what do you think is a good icon for "new thread"? [16:44:05] This one? http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gnome-document-new.svg [16:44:10] or this one? http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gnome-mail-message-new.svg [16:44:15] hmm [16:44:32] are we commonly using a document icon as a metaphor for a discussion? [16:46:08] we haven't got any other icons yet [16:46:13] except for reply [16:46:18] http://wiki.werdn.us/test/view/Talk:Main_Page [16:46:39] I think the speech bubbles are a good one [16:47:00] Actually maybe a single speech bubble would do the trick. [16:47:06] yeah, but perhaps using just 1 speech bubble for an icon that size... [16:47:11] ha ha [16:47:29] also, I know you've removed the borders from everything [16:48:08] That's something I'll want to discuss with parul [16:48:24] which is great, but I have some ideas for how to make the interface look cleaner and more orgnaized [16:48:29] have you looked at wave? [16:48:38] no [16:50:40] i am mocking something up - give me like 2 seconds [16:55:17] http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/2190/wavelqt.png [16:55:45] so, basically, all i've done here is inserted a google wave discussion into your existing UI [16:56:12] you can see that they do a few things here [16:57:06] 1, they do have lines around the content, but only on 2 sides, and the lines fade off (same concept to vector's tabs here - use fewer than 4 lines to imply a rectangular area) [16:58:20] So, lines are not evil, they just need to be light, placed in a minimalist way, and show grouping and divisions and nothing else - any line that can be removed without loosing clear grouping and division should go [16:58:45] 2, they show the date in a brief way (you may not be able to control this) [16:58:58] It's a localisation thing [16:59:12] 3, they only show the controls to edit, reply, and more actions when you mouse over the section those controls are relevant to [16:59:22] this prevents clutter big time [17:00:13] 4, the controls use very simple icons, for instance the reply icon is just a typical reply arrow, and doens't have any other additional context in the icon (like word bubbles) since it's obvious it's in relation to a discussion [17:00:41] something else, I don't know if LQT does, but it really useful and we would eventually want -> [17:01:11] 5, marking things (in this case with green lines on the left) that are new or unread [17:01:30] might be caching issues there [17:01:33] 6, threads only nest when they are splitting, not just continuing [17:02:03] this is different from newsgroup style, but notice how they do a shadowed box around threads and dotted lines between posts [17:02:08] that's the trick [17:02:37] if we indent on every step of a thread it will get out of hand, wasting too much horizontal screen real-estate [17:04:45] so, we are really close, but these changes would make a huge impact on this system [17:05:03] What do you think? [17:05:43] The lines thing is something I really need to get right. [17:06:08] The date thing is mostly hard to control because of localisation, but I can perhaps come up with something [17:06:53] understood (it should be in html color "silver" too) [17:06:59] allot of this info should be [17:07:09] well, at least the time/date [17:07:23] mmm [17:07:32] I'm not entirely sure on controls [17:07:43] how so? [17:07:48] part of it is that the Wave way of laying it out is in columns [17:07:53] first column -- author [17:07:56] second column -- content [17:08:10] third column -- date/time, and controls. [17:08:29] I'm not sure how auto-hiding controls works with the controls at the bottom, rather than the RHS [17:08:35] also, only one control has an icon at the moment [17:09:20] you would have a link, reply, edit, and \/ (arrow down) control [17:09:45] just to the vector arrow down menu [17:10:54] Do you think that having show/hide in the menu is a good idea? [17:10:59] (for replies) [17:11:13] a really important thing about this is, reducing the amount of information on the screen without taking away any features... and also making things by deafult lighter, and only dark when it's the one and only thing of focus [17:11:31] mm, I haven't played much with colour [17:11:37] been trying to pull stuff into menus and so on [17:11:37] show/hide? [17:11:46] "Hide all replies" in the screenshot. [17:11:50] ah [17:11:52] A toggle for showing or hiding replies. [17:11:56] um, I don't know about that [17:12:10] I think that's a weird place for it [17:12:23] to me, it seems more sensible to have a disclosure indicator, and to click on that to toggle them. [17:12:30] that sort of thing would need to be a state that the user sets and is always kept until they change it if you did do something like that [17:12:35] anothing caching issue I bet [17:12:47] yeah [17:12:58] actually I'd prolly do it solely in JS. [17:13:06] so cookies then [17:13:12] right [17:13:20] Parul just signed onto gtalk, is she in now? [17:13:53] she's not here right now [17:13:53] Making the date silver would be strange where it is right now, IMO [17:14:16] everything except the text of the discussion needs to be light colored [17:14:27] to draw the attention to the content and away from the controls [17:14:35] That's a good strategy [17:14:45] let me get you icons [17:14:46] one sec [17:14:57] you have been doing allot of good work on this! [17:15:00] we are super close [17:15:36] We can prolly do the filter: greyscale or whatever it is on it. [17:15:44] No, the visual stuff still needs a lot of work [17:16:04] Note changes I just committed are going live in a sec [17:16:15] I improved all the stuff at the top of the page so it's just one interaction area [17:19:29] RoanKattouw .. I am starting to blog ... please update me about the cron job [17:20:46] werdna: ok - sending you icons now [17:20:53] cheers [17:21:18] GerardM-: Cron job seems to have run successfully but it doesn't seem to be mailing me the output ^^ [17:21:37] once an hour ? [17:21:58] Aye [17:22:10] *RoanKattouw installs man on prototype, WTF wasn't that done before [17:25:14] pretty icons, TrevorParscal [17:25:18] :) [17:25:22] making mockup that uses them [17:25:26] you will have it in a min [17:25:50] werdna: Do you know how to make crond make me e-mail the output of a cronjob? I just need it in /var/mail/whatever, not necessarily actual e-mail [17:26:25] dunno offhand, try google [17:27:32] Ah, MAILTO=root in /etc/crontab , easy enough [17:32:03] http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/ [17:38:27] TrevorParscal: haven't got anything, you still working on it? [17:38:56] almost done [17:39:58] okie, cool [17:45:44] dinner in a few mins [17:49:07] who was working on the CG widgets ? [17:49:14] I was [17:49:24] you might be interested in this [17:49:25] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/13692/ [17:49:58] Ah, nice [17:50:02] Also very enwp-specific [17:57:56] But you shouldn't need to, use Special:Userrights to remove users from groups [17:59:22] Oops wrong window [17:59:33] TrevorParscal: is naoko in? [17:59:41] just confirming, i think i've got a meeting in line 2 mins :) [18:00:18] yes, but not at desk [18:00:20] yes [18:00:25] she went to that just now I think [18:00:33] on my way then :) [18:02:13] werdna: sent [18:03:17] so you will notice, that unlike wave, we add the username at the bottom just as if they had signed it with --~~~ [18:03:31] which is much more mediawiki-like [18:04:01] also, there is always a 2nd row (for the sig and also other info such as the "edited by other users" flag [18:04:16] that could even be made into an icon or something - but for now just making it even lighter is good [18:05:09] and there's a 2 column layout on the first row as well (the columns need not line up so make it row(column, column),row(column,column) not column(row, row),column(row,row) [18:05:55] the first row's got one column that is ONLY the text of the post, and the second column has the time/date and the on-hover toolbar thing [18:06:27] the toolbox can really just be absolutely positioned to the top right- it need not be inside that column [18:07:05] so you end up with toolbox,row(post,time),row(sig,info) [18:07:29] where toolbox is absolutely positioned to be top: 0, right: 0 (or maybe 0.5em away from the actual edge) [18:08:11] there needs to be an outter container for the rounded borders [18:08:39] otherwise hovering over some of that whitespace in the corner would activate the toolbox in the oposite corner - that's not desireable [18:08:44] :) [18:10:41] werdna: you get all that? [18:14:34] TrevorParscal: got it [18:14:36] looking [18:14:42] :) [18:15:25] what do you suggest for showing/hiding replies? [18:18:49] TrevorParscal: I'm still not sure how I feel about the options-on-mouseover thing [18:19:13] I think that if we use icons it's unobtrusive enough to not need that. [18:19:25] Instead, perhaps have them greyed-out until you mouse over? [18:19:43] TrevorParscal: can I post that to collab so I can show others? [18:20:06] Btw, those line gradients are 2px images, right? [18:20:19] you can try it either way, but I strongly suggest you go with hiding and showing on mousover [18:20:58] I will be addng it to http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Babaco_Designs#BEYOND%20BABACO in a min [18:21:14] line gradients? [18:21:27] you can use 1x20px images [18:21:34] I can give you a set of image to use [18:21:38] give me a min [18:22:51] they're already in the vector stuff, right? [18:24:52] WTH, my crappy Windows editor has a 1054-char line limit ^^ [18:28:09] werdna: you will have a custom set of images for this [18:28:13] in just a min [18:28:57] I'd like to make them myself, but not at 7:30 on a friday night [18:29:24] no worries they are done [18:29:35] do you need me to do the HTML/CSS work? [18:30:20] no [18:30:25] I'd like to do my own job ;) [18:30:31] :) [18:30:44] TrevorParscal: That's http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Babaco_Designs#BEYOND_BABACO , link anchors get escaped here and there [18:31:01] yeah [18:36:16] TrevorParscal: you stuck the design up on the web yet? [18:36:26] working! [18:37:11] sent you the slices with info [18:38:25] thx [18:47:32] TrevorParscal: Nice little bug: including NavigableTOC.php before EditToolbar.php breaks both :( [18:55:12] TrevorParscal: do you want me to put the mockup up on the web? I want to show others :D [18:57:35] doing it now [18:57:37] sorry [18:57:48] it's cool [18:57:51] just nagging :P [18:58:10] Timestamp should be a floated div in the top right, or a separate column table-style? [19:00:29] TrevorParscal: peeking at the CSS for vector tabs, you seem to put the border only on one side, but on at least one tab per group, you need a border on both sides [19:00:34] how do you do that? [19:01:17] each tab has a left border [19:01:28] the right border is just the left border of the next tab [19:01:38] and the final right border is from the UL containing them [19:01:52] ahhh [19:01:59] that last bit I didn't realise [19:02:00] http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Babaco_Designs#Discussion [19:02:04] the world makes sense again :P [19:02:09] he he he [19:02:33] it's a nice trick for making the tabs look that way without lots of extra markup [19:03:30] brion: Trevor's done a mock for LQT which I think looks pretty cool, except I'm not sure about the mouseover for actions. What do you think? http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Design-LiquidThreads-1.png [19:03:53] werdna: he was just showin me :) [19:03:54] It's definitely way way waaaay better than the status quo [19:04:04] :) [19:04:13] i still think we can pump up the thread headers but it's a big step up [19:04:42] thread headers? you mean the thing at the top with history and summarize links? [19:04:57] werdna: you can login to my wave account and play if you like - to see some of the inspiration of this design in action [19:06:40] hehe, maybe the discussion thing is a good enough excuse to ask for one for me? *looks innocent* [19:07:44] yeah - naoko finally got hers.. [19:07:51] \o/ [19:08:08] werdna: so what's the chance of doing inline replies? [19:08:09] well it might be helpful to see some of the stuff, is it easy to get one? [19:08:16] TrevorParscal: it's already implemented [19:08:19] "Quote this" button [19:08:19] really! [19:08:28] ah, it isn't working [19:08:34] must be my jQuery stuff :P [19:08:47] Hmm [19:08:53] dudee! [19:08:54] sweeet! [19:08:58] i didn't even notice [19:09:00] I love it [19:09:58] The jQuery stuff? [19:10:07] werdna: we need a spinner or something so it's more clear we need to wait [19:10:16] can do that [19:10:22] when I load the page and click immediately... its like.. hey! nothing's happening [19:10:38] brion: I guess making an AJAX widget that, when the user stops typing in a textbox, sends "[[Foo|Bar]]" to the API parser would be killing the backend if used by users? [19:10:42] and maybe the edit box could be wrapped in my wikiEditor UI at some point [19:10:58] RoanKattouw: that might be overkill :) [19:11:04] heh yeah thought so [19:11:10] werdna: also, cancel should just close the thing [19:11:18] and clicking reply again maybe should toggle it [19:11:27] yeah need to do that [19:11:29] brion: I can probably do some simple logic myself based on the return value of the existence query (also AJAX) [19:11:29] will do that now actually [19:11:59] not working for me.. i click cancel and it reloads the page [19:12:04] Too bad I just threw away the code that does that :( [19:12:05] clicking reply once open does nothing [19:12:43] nom nom [19:12:50] RoanKattouw: is this for the link typeahead suggest? [19:13:00] brion: Not exactly that, but related [19:13:09] Yeah I should do suggestions too [19:13:24] Right now it just shows an icon based on exists / doesn't exist / invalid [19:14:43] *RoanKattouw gets cracking on link suggestions instead [19:14:54] Wikia LinkSuggest uses the Yahoo stuff so screw that [19:15:16] (instead of jQuerY) [19:16:46] http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Babaco_Designs#Discussion [19:16:49] added some more info [19:17:06] we can port it [19:17:16] No need I think [19:17:20] We are at least 10% or 15% better programmers than them! [19:17:35] we can build something better! wooo hooo! [19:17:39] If I understand correctly changing two lines in mwsuggest.js is gonna do it [19:17:42] ok - getting food and then going to cheese thing [19:17:47] in a min [19:17:52] Of course mwsuggest.js should be ported to jQuery too some day [19:18:35] Can't you steal the coding from the mediawiki search box? [19:18:48] MC8: Yes, that's what I just said (mwsuggest.js) [19:18:55] RoanKattouw: actually, we need to do that like.. nowish [19:19:08] I realised once I hit enter :| [19:19:22] basically, the same functionality, but put it in UsabilityInitiative/SimpleSearch [19:19:27] and it's only for vector [19:19:29] TrevorParscal: That'd be a core feature using jQuery, do we want that? *looks towards brion * [19:19:37] Oh wait it wouldn't be nm [19:19:50] cause we need to make a custom deal for that given the very different screen placement (on the right, so it needs to expand left) [19:19:57] and reverse that for RTL of course [19:20:15] Oh is that a bug in mwsuggest.js? [19:20:23] yeah jquery's gonna go core soon :) [19:20:24] Oooh yes of course [19:20:24] plus, the first item in the dropdown list will be "Search for [searchterm]" [19:20:30] hehe [19:20:41] and each item after that (in a diff color) will be a goto existing article that matches link [19:20:45] Ideally it'd autodetect where to expand, cause the link dialog is movable [19:20:50] and if you just hit enter it will do a go [19:21:15] Oh yeah mwsuggest.js would make it act too much like a search box, you're right [19:21:34] so, I think we need a jquery-ified modular opensearch implimentation that makes both the link suggest and simple search work [19:21:37] But I can at least see how they're doing the expanding box thing and port that [19:21:41] Aye [19:21:41] if they share the code it will be easier to maintain [19:22:01] mwsuggest will just hang around for monobook compat.. [19:22:49] RoanKattouw: so if you feel up to it, buidling an opensearch plugin would be awseome! [19:23:07] UsabilityInitiative/js/plugins/jquery.openSearch.js is born! [19:23:43] ok [19:23:45] heading to lunch [19:23:47] cyall! [19:31:56] Why is it that whenever things get interesting, everyone pops off for lunch? [19:34:09] *RoanKattouw is still here, writing the search suggestions thing [19:34:15] But then it's 9:30 PM here [19:34:38] Heh. [19:34:51] *MC8 looks for a suggestions page on usabilitywiki [19:35:52] MC8: http://usability.wikimedia.org/Talk:Prototype [19:36:02] just found it :P [19:36:10] What's your suggestion BTW? [21:10:26] Damn, mwsuggest.js is a mess [21:10:34] Hardly documented, globals everywhere [21:11:08] where's trevor? [21:12:03] Presumably still at lunch [21:12:16] theyve been gone for like 2 hours :P [21:15:06] Post-lunch meeting? [21:15:13] Oh it's 2:15 already [21:15:19] *RoanKattouw failed at timezone conversion [21:16:23] RoanKattouw: look, pretty! [21:16:23] http://wiki.werdn.us/test/view/Talk:Main_Page [21:17:38] My design skills are negative, I can't generally recognize pretty designs :P [21:24:11] http://simple.wikibooks.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Gadget-commentgradient.css prettier