[17:32:26] hi RoanKattouw [17:32:28] hi YaronK [17:32:40] Hey Trevor [17:32:49] *RoanKattouw hopes he can invoice his LocalisationUpdate work [17:32:56] But Naoko is on vacation, so I can't ask her :( [17:33:44] RoanKattouw: if not i'll gladly pay you for that out of my budget :) [17:33:55] hehehe [17:34:09] I've been writing down the hours starting today just in case [17:34:38] brion: Would it be very bad to branch LU into the 1.15 branch and drop 1.15 compat? [17:34:57] That way I can switch to file-based storage without causing too much load for 1.15 installs [17:35:20] RoanKattouw: that'd be just fine i think [17:35:26] Hm on second thought, it may not be that much load [17:35:36] If I'm smart and CDB is efficient enough [17:36:37] :) [17:36:55] just note that 1.15 doesn't include the pure-php cdb compatibility code :) [17:39:06] Yeah [17:39:15] OK so that breaks 1.15 compat anyway [17:39:26] *RoanKattouw curses CdbReader for not having a getAll() method [17:39:32] Hi Trevor - congratulations! [17:39:48] You know what, screw it, I'm just gonna serialize() it into a file [17:39:51] thanks man! [18:00:23] I'm planning to send this link out to wikitech-l, let me know if you have any last-minute suggestions: http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template_forms [18:08:11] YaronK: Looks fine to me [18:08:25] Arlight, cool. [18:09:18] There's still tweaking that could be done with all the "value"/"label"/"text" naming. [18:09:36] But that's kind of minor at this point. [18:30:39] so, that XML format is interesting - seems like there are a few styles of making XML formats, and this one reminds me of redmond washington :) this is the one that the german wikipedia folks put together right? [18:31:50] brb [18:36:36] spiffy [18:36:41] gonna grab some lunch, starvin' [18:38:16] Redmond? That's a nice city. :) [18:39:43] The format is based on the German Wikipedia one, but with more tags. [18:39:53] And attributes. [18:42:10] right on [18:42:38] are there any existing uses of xml in mediawiki we can derrive a standard from? [18:44:04] other than this one of course [18:45:55] what is the group tag for? what other group tags would be there? [19:01:48] Sorry, I missed this till now. [19:02:27] The tag is to be able to group template fields together, if there are a lot of them. [19:03:09] I don't know what that looks like in the form, but I'd imagine it leads to some separation between the groups, like a horizontal line. [19:04:08] YaronK: did another pitch for semantic wiki on the talk page ;) ... but I can totally see why it won't happen.. its always easier to target the specific solution rather than the general one... and with limited resources etc... [19:05:11] Do you have some thinking on how to represent shared values? ... my main concern of moving away from property pages is that you can't share properties. [19:05:36] I actually think using the Semantic MediaWiki/Semantic Forms setup is a bad idea, for this case. [19:06:06] did you read my little scenario on the talk page? [19:06:27] First because, even if English Wikipedia adopts SMW, there will always be wikis that don't use it but still could benefit from template editing. [19:07:00] Yeah - it's true that SMW provides benefits as far as the data structure. [19:07:36] Being able to autocomplete on all the values that a field has in other pages is another big one. [19:07:51] ... well leave SMW on the side for now... I am just concerned about shared structured representation of properties of templates being replicated when they don't have to be. [19:08:47] Yeah, that's true.... I don't know of any reasonable solution to that. [19:09:19] Other than having transclusion within XML pages, but I don't know how practical that would be. [19:10:08] yea it just recreates property pages in the template namespace [19:10:46] which seems like a bad idea to me... but it is consistent with existing "structured data" approach of wikipedia ;) [19:11:30] Right... as in, not very structured? :) [19:11:32] which is... give Templates Turing complete functionality and whatever mess is produced is our structured data ;) [19:11:43] Okay, yes. [19:13:29] yea... it will just suck to create thousands of template description xml pages that won't bring us closer to any form of shared ontology or structured data. [19:14:22] well slightly closer we will identify types... like "date" & "string", "coordinates" etc. [19:15:07] Right, it would bring us closer - not just types, but there would be consistent ordering of template fields, and layout... [19:15:08] but only tied to representation of input for that data rather than tied towards /relationship/ of that data. [19:16:13] Well, yeah, but getting people to think of templates as structured data is a step in that direction too, I think... [19:18:24] I mean, it might encourage people to do more consolidation of templates, for instance, now that it would be easier for everyone to work with them. [19:19:56] Assuming that's still a problem; I don't know. It looks like there's been a lot of consolidation since last time I checked, anyway. [19:20:44] sure ... any improvements to the template system is good... but I really think property pages rather than template transclution would be a good way to go if possible for property descriptions ... We could have an interface for witting that template_forms xml that just stored could call the propertie pages.... and a namepace for the properties to autocomplete on. [19:21:17] ie I want the "born on date" property then I want to share the translation and fact that its a "date" [19:21:24] You mean, using SMW? Or are you talking about creating some subset of SMW? [19:22:28] either way... as long as the properties are not transcluded from the template namespcase it will be better I think [19:23:05] that could be accomplished with a subset of SMW or by just witting something up. [19:23:13] Well, a subset would be difficult, I think... how could you have this code installed on a wiki that also has SMW? [19:23:52] ~ just share the basic syntax and check if its installed and ignore if it is ~ [19:24:09] ~maybe~ [19:24:10] ;) [19:24:45] ... its all complicated anyway you spin it ;) [19:24:59] but its a bad idea to push that complexity into the template namepspace I think... [19:26:07] Another option, for re-using field information, is having something like . [19:26:29] i.e., having one XML file get the info from another. [19:27:12] yea that could work... [19:27:32] but kind of complicated... [19:27:48] Yeah, it could involve a lot of parsing, which is slow. [19:28:02] because we don't really transclude portions of content presently... [19:28:25] How big is this problem, do you think? [19:28:38] I mean, how many fields would be duplicated over multiple templates? [19:34:48] well the one off solution is to not disallow transclution in the xml. [19:35:28] maybe it won't be that common of a problem... [19:47:12] YaronK: its more like it will discourage a direction we need to go in to support a semantic mediaWiki future... ie consolidating general display based templates rather than expanding specific per subject templates that have specific properties with shared semantic structure. [19:48:00] Well, the two aren't really mutually exclusive... [19:48:46] You can have information on display (like input type, allowed values, etc.) coming from both the XML and the SMW settings, with the XML overriding SMW if it's there. [19:48:58] If its hard to share properties users won't do it and subsequently we will have less ontology convergence or more general properties. [19:49:22] Okay, yeah; but I don't actually see that as a big loss. [19:50:31] If, for instance, all cities have a property called "City founding date" and all countries have a property called "Country founding date", I don't think that's a big problem - you'd rarely want to combine things from two different categories. [19:50:58] right but in template_forms land they will be machine understood as "date" [19:51:20] Well, as type "date". [19:51:28] Not as a property called "date", if that's what you mean. [19:51:29] or well still retains its name... just has to be grabbed manullay [19:51:50] your right... "has type date" [19:52:01] Yeah, so it's no big deal, I think. [20:21:39] RoanKattouw ... I noticed your update on LocalisationUpdate ... when might be the moment for it to go live ? [20:21:52] That's up to Brion [20:21:58] I just rewrote part of it [20:22:03] Presumably, he'll want to review that [20:23:09] For an explanation of what caused the original code to fail (or at least my thoughts after talking to domas and Tim): https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20774#c3 [20:24:33] Roan I am cc-d on that one [20:24:43] Oh OK [20:24:57] I knew you were CCed on one of the two bugs, forgot which one [20:25:10] it is really important to me ... have several days of work that I can only start when it is liv [20:25:11] e [20:25:18] both [21:17:51] TrevorParscal: http://ragesoss.com/blog/ has you beat -- they included pictures with their birth liveblog! ;) [21:20:30] ha ha - awesome [21:20:40] my wife wasn't as concenting as his aparently [21:20:51] *consenting [21:28:03] hah [21:58:19] http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Template_forms#XML_format_could_be_better [22:01:05] TrevorParscal: me like [22:02:09] Good points [22:02:30] the one thing i'd consider different is the groups [22:02:44] and that's fairly debateable :) [22:06:28] I agree with brion on that one [22:15:40] brion: agreed [22:30:43] *TrevorParscal replies http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Template_forms#XML_format_could_be_better [22:33:28] nimish_g: how did the office thingy go? [22:34:03] I thought it was at 1pm, so when I realized it was at 10am I sort of gave up on my plans to come by [22:35:10] haha [22:35:12] yeah it went ok [22:35:58] TrevorParscal: I think the basic things that our group had were that we wanted to be near eachother and that we wanted others to understand that we talk alot and if people find this disruptive we should be away from them [22:36:53] so are they going to plan the seating arrangment and let us know, or is it pretty clear already? [22:38:25] I think there's 1 of 2 possible places we could go, 1 side in the 'tech ghetto' and 1 side on the non-tech stuff thingy [22:40:04] "and that we wanted others to understand that we talk alot and if people find this disruptive we should be away from them" --> Yay [22:41:47] =) I may have overdone it some so they all think we're sitting over here shouting at eachother all day or something, but I'd rather have that impression than the idea that we meet, say, 1 time in the morning and then quietly do our work for the rest of the day [22:43:02] When I was at the office Trevor and I had a 10-minute out loud discussion about commenting style [22:43:18] I used the words "hate" and "never" too [22:43:21] it was exciting! [22:43:25] That doesn't happen at Stillman [22:43:44] *TrevorParscal hates that that never happens at stillman [22:46:14] nimish_g: As long as people don't start buying earplugs it's probably OK :) [22:47:58] nimish_g: if they install soundproofing and put us in that server room, it's all your fault [22:50:02] I guess in that case we'll just steal Wikia's trampoline and put it there, no one'll notice (apart from Wikia, oops) [22:50:40] actually I think one of the windowless closets is gonna be somewhat soundproofed so Jay can do...whatever Jay does...in the room without sound. And as for the server room, I still want to put some ridiculous label on the giant red button, like "Revert all edits" [22:55:33] we're getting a Cone of Silence for you kids [22:59:10] I was thinking a giant cylindrical room whose walls are whiteboards. parutron, TrevorParscal, sound good? [22:59:25] i'm down [23:00:19] can the ceiling be a rotating fan like in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate factory when they drink the forever-fizzy soda? [23:01:46] we can offer a fizzy lifting drink to any that complains about our noise.... [23:02:12] i think we should get walkie talkies [23:02:13] tee hee [23:02:16] AWESOME [23:02:36] new dad new dad, this is brown noise, over. [23:02:38] TrevorParscal: added another quick note on the templates thingy [23:02:57] nimish_g you can be crazy eyes [23:03:30] I want to be goose and nimish_g can be ace - and parutron can be maverick [23:03:34] like Top Gun! [23:03:51] we can speak in double speak like they do in top gun (i heart top gun) [23:03:53] haha as long as I'm not goose I'm down [23:04:01] i've got him in my sights, dead ahead, dead ahead [23:04:06] i'm taking the shot, i'm taking the shot [23:04:31] only yours will be: i'm committing my code, i'm committing my code. [23:05:46] SVN UP! SVN UP! [23:06:04] negative ghostrider, the repo is full [23:06:08] (cue top gun victory music here) [23:06:28] (i mean danger zone if repo is full)