[00:06:08] werdna: you there? [00:06:08] TrevorParscal: You sent me a contentless ping. This is a contentless pong. Please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I am around. [00:06:24] wtf? [00:06:31] there was content [00:06:44] :( [13:00:05] TypeError: Result of expression near '...ructure[i].position).click(function(even...' [undefined] is not an object. [13:00:18] plugins.combined.min.js line 147 [13:04:28] hmm, and the scroll distance for navigatable toc seems screwed on safari on long articles [13:04:48] cursor is inserted at the correct position, but the the cursor does not scroll into view. [13:05:02] *thedj checks if that last is an issue with the Nightly beta of webkit. [13:07:32] ps. i have a good idea... [13:08:57] what about when you do edit section, the whole toc is displayed, and if you select toc area outside the current section, we XHR load the entire edit page into the edit window. [16:17:47] hi everyone [16:19:45] Ryan_Lane: re bug 20361 [16:20:07] Morning [16:20:10] *RoanKattouw grabs dinner [16:20:11] will ping trevor when he gets on line to give u shell access to usability and strategy [16:20:13] ? [16:20:20] hey roan [16:20:30] morning :) [16:20:34] nkomura: Save your breath, Trevor can't hand out shell access, only Brion does that [16:20:42] oh [16:20:47] brion is away [16:20:49] today [16:20:51] (to the cluster that is, to prototype is fine) [16:22:18] i'll add a request to brion on the bug then [16:26:00] k, left a message to brion on the bug [16:26:19] Ryan_Lane: i need to get in touch with you about hw configuration of the the test automation [16:26:37] i have meetings whole morning so shall we chat in the afternoon? [16:26:42] nkomura: sure [16:26:57] I sent a couple of quotes to rob [16:28:49] so around 1 PST? [16:57:09] brion is out of office entire today? [17:23:29] Nikerabbit: yea... I think just going with index order ie ... {PLURAL:$|foo|bar|baz|cat|fish|dog}} to one,zero,few,many,two,other foo = one ... bar=zero, baz=few, cat = many, fish= two dog = other [17:23:53] (sorry wrong channel) [20:07:49] i'm thinking of staging new search box, watch/unwatch, LQT, add-media-wizard on prototypes for testing [20:13:25] nkomura: need me to add them? [20:13:52] yeah, that'd be fantastic [20:14:25] TrevorParscal and RoanKattouw, are you comfortable changing prototype today [20:14:31] or should we give a few more days? [20:14:55] sure [20:20:48] Ryan_Lane: add media wizard will not install easily [20:21:00] as the integration to the toolbar is yet to be completed [20:21:11] I was just looking for that :) not an extension I'm assuming [20:21:14] but you can install the rest [20:21:30] ok. cool [20:22:00] and you can install to all languages on prototypes [20:22:23] nkomura: new search and watch/unwatch are trivial config changes, LQT and amw may be less trivial [20:23:20] i just learned from trevor amw will not be easily deployed [20:23:44] werdna can help LQT installation I suppose? [20:24:06] LQT should be easy for people who have installed extensions before [20:25:41] LQT requires database mods. is it written to use update.php? [20:25:53] the install directions don't really imply it [20:26:15] Yeah, I think it does [20:26:20] (use update.php) [20:26:23] Used not to [20:26:49] ok. so I should just be able to enable it and run update.php [20:26:51] used not to? [20:27:06] (old version) [20:27:06] Aye, that should work [20:27:11] ok. cool [20:27:27] might cause downtime for a very short period [20:27:43] That's normal [20:27:46] ok [20:34:36] LQT is enabled on prototypes [20:34:40] Nice [20:35:01] Is search not already enabled on the prototypes? [20:36:00] Maybe [20:36:14] Go look :P if it looks different from Wikipedia that's probably a yes [20:36:14] watch looks like it is too [20:36:56] yep. looks different [20:37:34] search has a magnifiying glass icon, and watch is a star. So I'm assuming watch is enabled too? :) [20:38:23] Yup [20:39:37] nkomura: did you want to talk with me about the hardware for the testing stuff? [20:40:33] yeah [20:40:40] i was trying to see LQT on prototype, but I can't see it [20:40:45] i did refresh the page [20:40:51] which one? [20:41:03] I used it on en-wp [20:41:05] http://prototype.wikimedia.org/en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Main_Page [20:42:13] nkomura: check at the bottom of the page [20:42:22] all of the old discussions are above it [20:42:35] LQT doesn't import existing discussions [20:43:22] but it is supposed to archive it up to a different page [20:43:44] at least that is how werdna explained it to me yesterday [20:43:50] Hm [20:43:57] We can manually archive them if we want [20:44:04] Unfortunately werdna's out getting drunk [20:44:10] And I'll be out tomorrow [20:44:14] I'll ask him Sunday or Monday [20:44:25] k, [20:44:44] i've been using add a topic tab hoping that will add a new thread to LQT [20:44:51] obviously it needs to be integrated [20:45:01] I think he has an open bug for that somewhere [20:45:08] Ryan_Lane: I see the thread at the bottom now ;) [20:45:10] Search for "LiquidThreads hijack" [20:45:13] :) [20:45:19] i just deleted the nonsense [20:47:26] Gah. I only installed on the english one [20:48:36] Ryan_Lane: wikis/common/PrototypeSettings.php [20:48:54] RoanKattouw: yeah, put it there, but in the english only section :) [20:49:00] reading comprehension ftw [20:49:37] *nkomura just complained the deletion of old threads to trevor [20:50:23] we will need to verify how the old threads is archived before going live... [20:50:36] ok. on all language prototypes now [20:51:18] cool [20:51:28] *nkomura goes to check ja prototype [20:51:43] nkomura: They're still in the old revisions, we'll always be able to bring them back [20:52:08] yeah [20:52:50] just giving trevor hard time [20:53:54] *RoanKattouw hopes Trevor doesn't get a trauma from getting hard times from women (wife, daughters, boss) [20:54:18] s/wife/until recently pregnant wife/ [20:55:33] :D [20:55:46] TrevorParscal is a tough man, he can handle it [20:55:53] he he he [21:01:44] confirmed LQT on ja prototype [21:02:23] working, but need to integrate "add topic" action from the tab, updated tool icons and such [21:02:42] but that is in general, not just for ja [21:02:47] thanks for a quick update Ryan_Lane [21:03:05] nkomura: you're welcome [21:03:13] Ryan_Lane: shall we discuss about the test environment set up [21:03:18] sure [21:03:40] would you give me a big picture how selenium rc will be set up targeting prototypes? [21:04:25] Tests can be written in php/python/etc, and will run tests against the prototypes [21:04:47] or, they can be created in selenium ide, and outputted at php/python etc. [21:05:08] where do you recommend test scripts to running from? [21:05:13] the rc servers will launch browsers which will run the tests, and return ok/not ok [21:05:57] which need to be separate from the target environment? [21:05:57] yes [21:06:06] because you need an rc server on each platform you want to test [21:06:37] i see [21:06:59] so the collaboration scenario i am thinking of this is as follows [21:07:30] calcey technologies worked testing babaco [21:07:48] their work was manual as we requested to test prototype [21:08:14] when they did the pilot program testing drafts extension, they did automation in their own environment [21:08:48] so i want to create a place where external folks such as consultant company like calcey, or tech volunteers can add test scripts easily in the future [21:09:15] so that we don't throw away the test cases for basic testing [21:09:17] that should be doable using selenium ide [21:10:35] is selenium ide part of selenium rc? [21:10:51] there are a few different products [21:10:57] i haven't read much about the set-up of selenium yet [21:11:00] selenium ide, rc, and grid [21:11:17] ide is a firefox plugin that allows you to record tests [21:11:43] it can take the recorded tests and turn then into scripts for rc, which can run the tests in an automated fashion [21:12:12] grid takes a group of rc servers, and farms out requests to make the automated tests faster [21:12:24] and lets you run tests in parallel [21:13:47] and the conversation from ide to rc requires authentication? [21:14:01] I believe it just outputs the scripts. someone would have to take those and integrate them [21:15:16] sounds like we want to start w/ ide and rc and extend the environment using grid [21:15:37] yeah. that's what I was thinking [21:15:52] the equipment I spec'd out was to host the selenium rc servers [21:16:14] although we could also use it for prototype, and other test/dev servers [21:17:47] we do want to support multiple targets at least prototypes and test.wp.org [21:18:13] and keep the basic test running so that we can confirm the new stuff doesn't break the basic functionalities [21:18:36] so we need hw + VW? [21:18:48] VW? [21:18:55] Vmware? [21:19:00] ah. [21:19:09] Rob wanted to use vmware, yeah. [21:19:38] vmware esxi for a single system is free [21:20:20] for a single volume or multiple volumes on a single system? [21:21:15] single piece of hardware. I think it is free up to 5 or 6 pieces of hardware [21:21:33] you can have as many virtual machines as you want [21:21:47] cool [21:21:53] we'll have to get licenses for windows VMs though [21:22:00] k [21:22:11] it was mentioned that you guys have macs to use already [21:22:27] since we can't virtualize OS X [21:22:45] the server I spec'd should be able to handle 16-20 VMs [21:23:10] yeah most folks here us mac (i use ubuntu) [21:23:24] but for test automation, we still want to set up one server running mac [21:24:06] I think they were going to dedicate 1-3 macs for testing [21:25:14] they mean ops folks? [21:25:26] brion mentioned it I believe [21:27:54] werdna_: check out usability prototypes ;) [21:27:54] brion said he believed they had a couple spare macs. no one confirmed it for sure though [21:27:54] He has at least one [21:28:06] confirmed :) [21:29:01] k [21:29:17] our new office has a server room [21:29:25] so maybe we can set-up servers there [21:30:01] rather than shipping a mac to the datacenter in florida [21:32:07] That sounds sane [21:32:17] i know [21:32:27] You'll want to bring that up with the ops folks of course, but I think it should be feasible [21:32:37] Ryan_Lane: i will chase down the hardware availability [21:32:48] nkomura: thanks [21:32:50] It's not a critical box or one that needs a lot of cooling or is gonna be in a room with hundreds of others [21:33:04] yeah [21:33:10] the more i think about it [21:33:20] the server room in the new office should be sufficient [21:33:50] how feasible/difficult would be to use hosted service for this kinda set-up? [21:34:00] having mac in a mix is hard i guess [21:34:26] you could run all the VMs on an OSX Server [21:34:35] then you get mac for free... [21:34:42] but pay more for hardware [21:34:47] but less than buying 2 boxes [21:34:51] just an idea [21:34:53] except you aren't allowed to virtualize OS X client OS's [21:35:24] there are no OS X vps's around either [21:35:48] we could do hosted, but if we have enough VMs, hardware is cheaper [21:35:56] http://blogs.vmware.com/vmtn/2008/01/virtual-leopa-1.html [21:36:01] especially since we already have a data center [21:36:24] TrevorParscal: that is leopard server [21:36:38] if you are on mac hardware, you can run leopard server as a vm [21:36:40] I always was saying OSX Server [21:37:02] right. but you aren't allowed to virtualize the client os's. only the server one [21:37:45] well, what are we trying to do? run web-browsers [21:37:51] it may not matter, but the server os is slightly different than the client ones [21:38:06] I see no need to run three different Mac OS versions [21:38:06] it has other features [21:38:20] 3? [21:38:31] tiger, leopard, snow leopard [21:38:41] why are we running tiger? [21:39:17] not saying we are going to. it is still supported [21:39:25] err still supported though [21:40:16] the more OS we can cover for testing is the better [21:40:32] what can we do with tiger we can't do with leopard? [21:40:44] what browser are we running there we can't with leopard? [21:41:05] same browser on different OS sometimes behaves differently [21:41:32] we had that issue with NTOC (not on mac but on windows) [21:42:58] the xserve servers are kind of expensive (for what you get), and the type of virtualization they do is inefficient [21:43:23] my original recommendation was xen on opensolaris, or xen on fedora or ubuntu. Rob suggested esxi [21:43:48] Ryan_Lane: how does that solve the mac problem though? [21:43:53] i agree with esxi, being familiar with xen, and esxi. [21:44:03] TrevorParscal: we already have macs [21:44:19] worst case, we buy a few mac minis [21:44:21] so we don't automate test them because we have them on our desks? [21:44:38] nkomura: Really? I don't recall [21:44:43] brion said he had spares. so they should be dedicated [21:45:30] it'll be cheaper, easier to maintain, and more efficient in the long run to support macs as the outliers than to use xserves [21:46:59] RoanKattouw: no show of NTOC using FF2 was not on XP, but appears on Vista [21:47:14] whether Vista supports FF2 is a separate question tho [21:47:18] Hm that's weird [21:47:20] brb [21:47:28] http://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=User%3ASiebrand%2Fui&diff=1553391&oldid=1285605 [21:47:45] this is the kind of diff that makes you all happy\ [21:51:41] http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/6355/vmsetup.png [21:51:49] typo [21:51:59] second solution should be solution B [21:52:00] :( [21:52:23] heh [21:52:30] TrevorParscal: yeah. thats about it [21:52:37] http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/1968/vmsetupm.png [21:53:10] except the hardware is now a Dell R650 [21:53:45] so - having 3 mac minis and 1 server capable of running 6 operating systems in graphical mode is your preference? [21:54:00] ESXi is bare metal virtualization. It is a kernel, and takes about 32MB of memory [21:54:05] and you are convinced there will be a difference in browser behavior between tiger, leopard and snow leopard? [21:54:16] vmware on OS X server is host-based virtualization [21:54:27] is it extremely inefficient [21:54:36] err [21:54:38] it is [21:55:09] i believe that [21:55:22] i'm not convinced there will be a difference. but if we don't need to test all three, thats less hardware to buy right? [21:55:42] ok - fair enough [21:55:53] if we need to test all three, then we can use existing hardware, and buy mac minis for what's missing [21:56:01] GerardM-: the link makes me really happy [21:56:16] :) [21:56:22] even this -> http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6355/vmsetup.png [21:56:24] if we do host based virtualization, we'd likely only be able to have about 1/3 or 1/4 the VMs in comparison to ESXi [21:56:27] 92% in arabic is awesome! [21:57:01] well, it depends on the hardware specs too [21:57:09] the best news is, people now actually see the UI software in their own language and they do not come with new issues ... [21:57:15] that is in itself a problem [21:57:24] .. do we believe that [21:57:40] definitely [21:58:22] i just had a mangala w/ calcey, he told me his staff is so excited doing the translation on their own for shinghala [21:58:40] 3k for an x-serve or ?? for a dell server of similar specs + a $600 mac mini [21:58:57] TrevorParscal: here's the link to the system I spec'd: http://ecomm.dell.com/dellstore/basket_retrieve.aspx?c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz&itemtype=CFG&cart_id=1009558060562&toEmail=rlane32@gmail.com [21:59:19] how much do we get that for? [21:59:24] full price? [21:59:36] When I was looking at xserves, the cheapest I spec'd was 6k [21:59:58] we get a discount according to Rob [22:00:05] and the dell you speced was 9.5k [22:00:20] so what's this crazy discount look like? [22:00:31] I spec'd the xserve without consideration for the same number of virtual machines [22:00:46] the xserve wasn't a comparible unit [22:00:59] the sun system I spec'd was similarly priced. [22:01:07] well and 8 core unit with 3gb of ram is only 3.5k [22:01:23] and you could add more ram/disks/etc of course [22:01:46] at that price there's allot of room to upgrade before we get to the price of the dell [22:02:29] gimme a sec to spec something comparible on apple's site [22:03:00] Gah, i can't spec more than 24GB of ram [22:03:17] I'll do 24 [22:03:32] *nkomura goes to write babaco blog, way behind... [22:03:33] 24gb is 8 VMS with 3gb each - is that really nessecary? [22:03:44] Only three hard drives [22:03:58] (I'm already up to 8,500) [22:03:58] Ryan_Lane: partitions? [22:04:37] you want at least a raid 5 [22:04:57] also - buying memory from apple is not something we ever doo [22:05:07] TrevorParscal: the OS take 2 GB of ram [22:05:09] we buy all of our laptiops with minimum ram and buy ram elsewhere [22:05:23] it saves thousands [22:05:57] you would do that on a server? [22:06:12] scary :) [22:06:38] you buy the server with 3gb of ram, then buy more ram somewhere that doesn't charge $2700 for it [22:06:48] it's not scary, we do that with our hardware all the time [22:07:13] apple is charging $2700 for 24 GB [22:07:30] yes [22:07:31] it is DDR3 ECC ram though, which isn't cheap [22:08:18] either way, it is looking like an xserve with comparible specs is more expensive [22:09:36] we are probably going to have 8-10 VMs at first, but it is likely to double in no time [22:09:42] even if they are the same price getting an XServe compared to a Dell + Mac Mini [22:09:56] a mac mini is about $600 [22:10:22] my whole point is that it's all one system - but... if performance issues of host-based vm are that big of a deal... [22:10:27] and the dell system will likely run twice as many VMs with the same system specs [22:11:28] just my 2 cents [22:11:50] its cool. i was going down the same thought pattern at first [22:12:11] when I realized you can't virtualize os x client OS's that killed the idea quickly [22:12:31] apple is annoying [22:13:07] what kind of setups do other people use for this same scenario [22:13:08] I wonder if techsoup sells macs... [22:13:12] we aren't the only people trying to do this.. [22:13:18] I've mostly used xen and esxi [22:13:32] I mean for mac support of course - other stuff is obvious [22:13:35] ah [22:13:58] that's a good question [22:14:33] most of what I found was people buying mac minis [22:14:44] I didn't do any in depth research though [22:16:47] I also saw a bunch of posts on people using hackintosh, which is unfortunately not an option :) [22:19:31] where is this hardware planned to be located at? [22:20:03] I don't know. I think Rob is handling that [22:21:42] well - my opinions aside, whoever is going to maintain the hardware/software needs to be the last word in the choice of hardware/software [22:22:13] heh. I think that's Rob. he recommended the Dell R650 w/ ESXi [22:23:32] I know - but you need to talk to him about the mac support [22:23:42] he may have strong opions or no opinions [22:23:47] right [22:24:09] i mean, obviously the mac support is the issue here [22:24:26] their vendor-lock practives suck for virtualization [22:24:31] *practices [22:24:41] yeah. it's extremely annoying