[00:01:13] <werdna>	I don't know, it seemed like it would be funny
[00:01:49] <werdna>	TrevorParscal: when you get back, I'm looking for a blue down-arrow for "add a reply"
[00:02:13] <werdna>	probably bigger, it's for a notice with font-size: 120%
[00:33:55] <TrevorParscal>	werdna: i'm back
[00:34:05] <werdna>	hey trevor
[00:35:01] <TrevorParscal>	adam_miller: ask Roan, he's owning that stuff - but.. caret position is going to naturally be a different sort of information with the iframe, you will have a position in a text node rather than poisition in the whole document
[00:35:25] <werdna>	so this is what I'm working with now (I haven't removed the ordinary reply button yet)
[00:35:28] <werdna>	http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2mra9er&s=6
[00:35:34] <werdna>	http://i48.tinypic.com/2mra9er.jpg
[00:35:51] <werdna>	I'm hoping to add a blue down arrow to the left of that thing down the bottom
[00:35:54] <werdna>	any ideas where I might find one?
[01:43:36] <werdna>	I scared Trevor off :)
[01:43:40] <werdna>	or maybe he has "work" to do
[01:43:44] <werdna>	or something silly like that ;)
[17:50:58] *RoanKattouw 	wonders where everyone is
[17:51:32] <brion>	getting coffee?
[17:51:33] <brion>	dead?
[17:51:36] <brion>	hiding?
[17:51:48] <brion>	hiding in a coffeehouse in a graveyard?
[17:51:59] <RoanKattouw>	Hiding from the meeting we're having in 10 mins presumably
[17:52:07] <brion>	ah that makes sense
[17:52:08] <RoanKattouw>	Only nkomura seems to be here
[17:53:50] <RoanKattouw>	nkomura: Please ping me when I need to call in
[17:57:36] <nkomura>	hi i'm here
[17:57:44] <nkomura>	talking in different channels
[17:58:04] <RoanKattouw>	No worries
[17:58:17] <nkomura>	no sign of trevor, nimish and parul yet
[17:58:39] <RoanKattouw>	So the office reflects IRC then? :)
[17:59:36] <nkomura>	mostly in the morning
[17:59:48] <nkomura>	during the day, it varies
[18:00:47] <nkomura>	RoanKattouw, adam_miller, and hannes-_-:  Let us delay the call by 15 minutes
[18:00:58] <nkomura>	as the team in the office hasn't showed up yet
[18:02:08] <adam_miller>	RoanKattouw: i was looking into fixing the highlight of the current section in the ntoc yesterday
[18:02:27] <adam_miller>	is getCarretLocation going to work OK with the iframe?
[18:02:47] <RoanKattouw>	adam_miller: Not yet. I'm committing some code for moving the selection now
[18:02:59] <RoanKattouw>	The location thing is next
[18:03:06] <adam_miller>	ok rad
[18:05:27] <nkomura>	parul and nimish are here
[18:05:31] <nkomura>	so we are going to the conf room now
[18:06:10] <RoanKattouw>	OK
[18:12:43] *Roan-meeting 	listens to elevator music
[18:13:19] *hannes_looping 	too
[18:17:48] <nkomura>	we are calling in
[18:18:30] <nkomura>	adam_miller: we are ready
[18:18:48] <adam_miller>	i'm on, i dont think you can hear me though so i'm gonna dial in again
[18:22:02] <adam_miller>	apparently skype wont let me talk today....i'm gonna listen for now
[18:22:49] <TrevorParscal>	I am TOTALLY HERE!
[18:22:50] <mdale>	if someone has the number handy and could private msg me it I will listen in as well
[18:25:52] <YaronK>	Yeah, same with me.
[18:28:13] <nkomura>	mda
[18:28:20] <nkomura>	mdale: the number is in the invite
[18:28:29] <hannes_looping>	could u hear me at all?
[18:28:31] <nkomura>	YaronK: i'll send you the number in a sec
[18:28:35] <mdale>	I am listening in now ;)
[18:33:39] <nkomura>	mdale and YaronK, we are doing a round table to share updates
[18:33:57] <YaronK>	Got it.
[18:34:09] <mdale>	yep
[18:39:44] <mdale>	thanks
[19:03:57] <adam_miller>	BAH my mic is not working
[19:04:16] <adam_miller>	i've been working on NTOC things
[19:04:23] <adam_miller>	but i could use some more tasks to help out with
[19:08:10] <nkomura>	is there preference from you on the things you want to work on?
[19:08:16] <nkomura>	we are competing for your time
[19:08:50] <adam_miller>	i'll work on whatever you guys want, go ahead and overwhelm me
[19:12:01] <adam_miller>	the links and tables dialog would be good, and trevor is right, i often need someone more in touch with the code to get me started
[19:17:03] <hannes_meeting>	http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Vector_edit_toolbar
[19:20:18] <mdale>	opps disconnected re- calling
[19:23:45] <hannes_meeting>	is sandbox #2 uptodate?
[19:23:53] <hannes_meeting>	concerning the addmediawizard?
[19:40:34] <TrevorParscal>	https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21709
[19:40:40] <TrevorParscal>	any ideas on this yet?
[19:40:41] <mdale>	hannes_meeting:let me check
[19:42:01] <mdale>	hannes_meeting: seems to be broken with the iframe setup
[19:43:11] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: Nope, I thought you should take a stab at it
[19:44:07] <TrevorParscal>	k
[19:48:05] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: Lang-spec icons infrastructure?
[19:48:33] <TrevorParscal>	mmmmm... sounds tasty
[19:50:14] <RoanKattouw>	OK so basically I'm thinking icon should be an object with langcode => icon
[19:51:03] <RoanKattouw>	Your selector idea is cute but 1) we want mutual exclusivity and 2) for some obscure language (or English), you'd first walk through all languages before finding out your lang isn't there and fall back to English, which is slow
[20:28:15] <TrevorParscal>	RoanKattouw: sorry - was in after meeting meeting
[20:28:25] <RoanKattouw>	Ha
[20:28:31] <RoanKattouw>	I thought you'd gone out for lunch
[20:29:01] <TrevorParscal>	ok, so the idea is that the icon field of the tool be an object rather than a string, and the object has a source field, as well as an optional language field?
[20:29:22] <RoanKattouw>	No
[20:29:34] <RoanKattouw>	The idea is that the language code is a key and the rest is a value
[20:29:44] <RoanKattouw>	That value could just be the icon name or maybe an object, not sure
[20:30:00] <RoanKattouw>	But for an efficient sublinear implementation, having the langcode as key is key :)
[20:30:23] <TrevorParscal>	'icon': { 'en': '/path/to/image.png', 'de': '/path/to/de/image.png' }
[20:30:39] <RoanKattouw>	Aye
[20:30:51] <RoanKattouw>	Possibly with s/en/default
[20:31:09] <RoanKattouw>	But I guess that's not necessary
[20:31:12] <TrevorParscal>	if ( myLangCode in iconObject ) { /* use it */ } else { /* use first one specified*/ }
[20:31:31] <TrevorParscal>	let the first specified be default
[20:31:32] <nkomura>	shall we deploy click tracking for the old tool bar before it gets too late for RoanKattouw?
[20:31:33] <RoanKattouw>	You can't grab the first one specified, right? How'd you do that in JS
[20:31:35] <TrevorParscal>	hmm
[20:31:39] <RoanKattouw>	Oh right yeah let's roll
[20:31:42] *RoanKattouw 	rolls
[20:31:51] <TrevorParscal>	no, default should be an option actualy
[20:32:01] <RoanKattouw>	Ah good one
[20:32:09] <RoanKattouw>	'default': 'en', 'en': 'foo', 'de': 'bar' ?
[20:32:14] <TrevorParscal>	cause icon: { default: '', en: '', de: '' } etc
[20:32:15] <TrevorParscal>	yes
[20:32:35] <TrevorParscal>	and we should also support icon: 'string'
[20:32:46] <TrevorParscal>	in the case that there is no need for multiple choices
[20:32:52] <TrevorParscal>	much like we do with some of the other things...
[20:32:56] <TrevorParscal>	I gotta eat lunch
[20:33:00] <TrevorParscal>	you going to sketch that out?
[20:34:25] <RoanKattouw>	Sure
[20:34:37] <RoanKattouw>	Right after I finish writing about that IE scariness I mentioned
[20:35:02] <TrevorParscal>	ha
[20:35:07] <TrevorParscal>	ok - so the other thing..
[20:35:11] <TrevorParscal>	what I was working on
[20:35:38] <RoanKattouw>	nkomura: And it's live
[20:35:47] <nkomura>	exciting!!
[20:35:53] <TrevorParscal>	to get events to work properly, it seems that we must actually load the iframe HTML from a file - which may cause issues with your solution... we will have to do more testing and stuff to know for sure
[20:36:02] <TrevorParscal>	write away - I'm very interested in your learning
[20:36:16] <RoanKattouw>	Like <iframe src="" >
[20:36:24] <TrevorParscal>	yes
[20:36:33] <TrevorParscal>	and that HTML that was inline, is just in that file
[20:36:58] <TrevorParscal>	but your fix that injects the wikitext into the HTML is obviously going to be broken by that
[20:37:08] <TrevorParscal>	but we can work it out
[20:37:24] <TrevorParscal>	we can do that after lunch, I'm sure your findings will still be very relevant
[20:45:29] <thedj>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Blocking_the_Usability_Initiative
[20:45:47] <thedj>	just so you know
[20:47:47] <nkomura>	thanks for the link thedj
[20:48:30] <nkomura>	it is alarming to learn how some people perceive our improvements
[20:48:48] <thedj>	well this is about clicktracking
[20:49:11] <RoanKattouw>	Which, admittedly, we force on people
[20:49:37] <RoanKattouw>	I'm curious what the guy means by ", it repeatedly uses functions that we tell our JavaScript coders here to avoid, since we know those functions slow things down too much"
[20:49:41] <RoanKattouw>	Commented about that
[20:50:13] <thedj>	i run a rediculous amount of scripts already, so i don't mind, but I guess if you have an older computer, and a slow connection, it can be quite bothersome on IE6 :D
[20:50:21] <nkomura>	david's suggestion turn off usability extenstion, not only the click tracking right?
[20:50:37] <RoanKattouw>	Yes
[20:50:44] <RoanKattouw>	That's why he says not to do this if you're using Vector
[20:51:24] <thedj>	this is also a problem btw
[20:51:25] <thedj>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Upload_in_progress_dialog
[20:51:35] <nkomura>	why doesn't he opt-out completely?
[20:52:03] <nkomura>	from the timestamp, it is before we enabled click tracking for old toolbar
[20:52:44] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah but after we enabled it for left nav
[20:53:20] <thedj>	nkomura: ps, people hate change :D Don't let it get to you.
[20:53:40] <nkomura>	thanks for saying that thedj
[20:54:23] <nkomura>	RoanKattouw: even we track 1:1000, the performance can be so bad for everyone?  or just the person we track who happens to have old system or slow connection?
[20:54:33] <RoanKattouw>	<mark> wikipedians cry. it's what they do. don't attempt to understand it
[20:54:38] <thedj>	it's frustrating, I know. But in VLC media player every new feature silenced as many voices as it raised. People will always complain.
[20:54:44] <RoanKattouw>	nkomura: Well they do have to download the whole JS the first time
[20:54:47] <RoanKattouw>	Other than that, I don't know
[20:55:08] <thedj>	is the JS cached ?
[20:56:27] <RoanKattouw>	Should be
[20:56:40] <RoanKattouw>	Client-side caching headers for like a month
[20:56:45] <thedj>	good
[21:01:53] <nkomura>	click tracking for left nav and old toolbar does not need to run for a long time
[21:02:27] <nkomura>	so i'll discuss when would be a good time to disable it
[21:02:37] <RoanKattouw>	If and when Nimish feels he has enough data, we can disable it
[21:02:46] <nkomura>	yeah
[21:28:18] <werdna>	RoanKattouw: Finne and I are plotting to get a group to take the train to Gdansk next year
[21:28:32] <RoanKattouw>	I've researched that, but it's expensive
[21:29:15] <RoanKattouw>	EUR 39 from a major station in NL to Berlin, more money to get to said major station, then another 100 or so for getting to Gdansk
[21:29:17] <RoanKattouw>	IIRC
[21:29:31] <RoanKattouw>	It takes like 18 hours from my house, and I can drive in 12
[21:29:41] <werdna>	let me take a look
[21:29:43] <RoanKattouw>	And if I can find people to share a car with, that'll also be cheaper
[21:30:14] <RoanKattouw>	I can link you up with an excellent international train planner, although it's in Dutch and doesn't let you book stuff or even tell you how much the journey costs
[21:31:21] <RoanKattouw>	http://www.nshispeed.nl/nl/internationale-treinplanner
[21:32:11] <werdna>	RoanKattouw: 15 EUR to Cologne on a Thalys train (that's from Brussels, though)
[21:32:38] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah Brussels is way closer to Cologne than I am, Gmaps Harlingen, Netherlands to see
[21:32:50] <RoanKattouw>	Fastest journey it finds for me is 15h57
[21:33:00] <RoanKattouw>	6:31 - 22:28
[21:33:37] <werdna>	to get to Cologne?
[21:33:44] <RoanKattouw>	No, to Gdansk
[21:33:46] <werdna>	ah
[21:33:51] <werdna>	I'm looking at it in stages
[21:33:54] <RoanKattouw>	E 19 to Cologne, it says
[21:34:04] <werdna>	so 39 EUR from Brussels to Berlin
[21:34:10] <werdna>	sounds about right
[21:34:16] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah
[21:34:21] <RoanKattouw>	It's 39 from major Dutch stations too
[21:34:43] <RoanKattouw>	OK and from Cologne?
[21:35:04] <werdna>	29 EUR
[21:35:14] <werdna>	sorry, 44 EUR brussels to cologne
[21:35:14] <RoanKattouw>	To where?
[21:35:18] <RoanKattouw>	Right
[21:35:19] <werdna>	to BERLIN
[21:35:21] <werdna>	let me start again
[21:35:25] <RoanKattouw>	Heh
[21:35:29] <werdna>	15 EUR Brussels to cologne
[21:35:38] <werdna>	29 EUR cologne to berlin
[21:35:40] <RoanKattouw>	I can get to Berlin no problem, I'd like not to go through Brussels and Cologne first :)
[21:35:49] <RoanKattouw>	To Berlin = 39 E for me
[21:35:55] <werdna>	52 EUR to Gdansk from Berlin
[21:36:03] <RoanKattouw>	Right
[21:36:06] <werdna>	well, if you take the 5 EUR detour you can meet some other people in Brussels
[21:36:08] <RoanKattouw>	Where'd you get the latter tariff from?
[21:36:11] <werdna>	although I suppose we could meet in Cologne
[21:36:14] <werdna>	db.de
[21:36:20] <RoanKattouw>	Right
[21:36:46] <RoanKattouw>	I'll probably travel to Leer, Germany , then buy a Dauer-Spezial (DB's discount program) to Angermuende
[21:37:08] <RoanKattouw>	The Berlin - Gdansk journey probably goes through either Angermuende or Szczezin, right?
[21:37:10] <RoanKattouw>	(or both)
[21:37:18] <werdna>	I'm not sure
[21:37:29] <werdna>	I haven't bothered changing it to english
[21:37:31] <werdna>	let me see
[21:38:49] <werdna>	connects in Szczecin Glowny
[21:38:58] <werdna>	wtf is with that name btw
[21:39:07] <werdna>	2 vowels, 6 consonants
[21:39:14] <RoanKattouw>	I know
[21:39:27] <RoanKattouw>	AFAIK Sz is pronounced as sh in shoe
[21:39:42] <RoanKattouw>	And cz as tz in The Ritz
[21:40:14] <werdna>	it'd be fun to meet up somewhere early on
[21:40:23] <RoanKattouw>	Or no, c is tz in the Ritz, so cz is something weirder
[21:40:25] <RoanKattouw>	Aye
[21:40:54] <RoanKattouw>	If you use Zwischenhalte Einblenden, does it show a stop in Angerm??nde?
[21:41:17] <werdna>	is that advanced journey?
[21:41:50] <werdna>	It does Angerm??nde-Szczecin-Danzig
[21:41:50] <RoanKattouw>	No, it means add intermediate stops
[21:41:56] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah I thought so
[21:42:03] <RoanKattouw>	The journey I'm looking at now is:
[21:42:21] <RoanKattouw>	Harlingen (NL) - Leeuwarden - Groningen - Leer (Germany) with Arriva trains
[21:42:43] <RoanKattouw>	Then Leer - Bremen with a RegionalExpress
[21:42:55] <RoanKattouw>	Bremen - Hannover - Berlin with two ICE's
[21:43:01] <werdna>	then you don't meet up with anybody else, of course
[21:43:16] <RoanKattouw>	Berlin Hbf (tief/underground) - Angerm??nde with another RE
[21:43:34] <RoanKattouw>	Then RegionalBahn to Szeczin and an Interregio from there
[21:43:50] <RoanKattouw>	What time does your train from Szeczin leave for Gdansk? 17:38?
[21:44:41] <werdna>	not sure
[21:45:11] <werdna>	of course, this is very early to be planning
[21:45:24] <werdna>	but I'm just seeing if it's possible
[21:45:33] <RoanKattouw>	I know
[21:45:35] *TrevorParscal 	is back from lunch
[21:45:54] <RoanKattouw>	Thing is I'm kind of limited in my train choice since I live so far away and it takes me like 3 hours to get to the border due to the crappy connection in Groningen
[21:46:39] <RoanKattouw>	werdna: Also, aren't you gonna be back in Australia by July? So then you'd be flying into Brussels or something and train from there?
[21:46:50] <werdna>	I'd quite possibly fly into London
[21:47:10] <RoanKattouw>	Oh right you'd probably fly through there anyway
[21:47:14] <werdna>	it's cheap
[21:47:25] <werdna>	and I'd enjoy doing the full trip
[21:47:39] <werdna>	I could just as easily fly into Frankfurt
[21:48:17] <RoanKattouw>	Are there direct flights between FRA and Sydney?
[21:49:17] <werdna>	if by direct you mean stopping in asia, then yes
[21:50:08] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah not non-stop obviously, but without having to change planes
[21:50:23] <RoanKattouw>	Hm DB says Berlin - Gdansk is 48,80 for me
[21:52:07] <RoanKattouw>	Ha and 28,70 from Tantow, maybe I can abuse their Dauer-Spezial program to take me all the way from Leer to Tantow for 29 E
[21:52:58] <werdna>	Frankfurt is slightly cheaper
[21:53:28] <RoanKattouw>	To fly to?
[21:53:42] <werdna>	yes
[21:54:02] <werdna>	Amsterdam is slightly cheaper again
[21:54:23] <RoanKattouw>	lol this is ridiculous, DB offers me a discount price of 39 EUR for getting from Leer to Tantow, and 49 for the same journey in 1st class
[21:54:33] *RoanKattouw 	yays at the idea of Amsterdam
[21:55:28] <werdna>	although I'd just as happily fly into London and chill with people there, continue to amsterdam, then go from there
[21:55:46] <RoanKattouw>	Where continue to Amsterdam is flying I presume?
[21:57:01] <werdna>	maybe
[21:57:08] <werdna>	I could do eurostar-thalys though
[21:57:24] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah
[21:57:27] <RoanKattouw>	Probably cheaper, but takes longer
[21:57:41] <RoanKattouw>	Doesn't matter much for me in time but that's just because I don't live in Amsterdam
[21:58:00] <werdna>	well, Thalys is most of the journey, and has wifi
[21:58:54] <werdna>	train is more expensive, almost certainly
[21:59:01] <werdna>	other alternative is train + ferry + train
[21:59:14] <RoanKattouw>	Really? NS offers a ticket from any station in NL to London St. Pancras for 99 EUR return
[21:59:37] <RoanKattouw>	Although you could probably fly a budget airline into Amsterdam or even Eindhoven/Rotterdam/Groningen
[21:59:52] <werdna>	yes
[22:01:26] <RoanKattouw>	Ha I have now found a EuropaSpezial discount offer from Leeuwarden (nearest IC station for me) to Tantow (German-Polish border) for E 39
[22:02:02] <RoanKattouw>	Puts the total journey at 67,70 each way
[22:02:29] <RoanKattouw>	That's acceptable
[22:04:40] <RoanKattouw>	werdna: Which ferry would you take then? Dover-Calais or Harwich-HvHolland?
[22:09:20] *RoanKattouw 	notices 1-hour changes in his iternary, sighs
[22:13:29] <werdna>	Harwich-Holland
[22:14:40] <RoanKattouw>	Rght
[22:15:02] <RoanKattouw>	werdna: I can only find one iternary from Berlin to Gdansk with just one stop (Szczecin) BTW, and that's in the morning
[22:15:41] *RoanKattouw 	searches a bit more, knows there is a direct train Amsterdam - Szczecin once a day
[22:16:41] <RoanKattouw>	Oh meh that one's too late
[22:18:38] <RoanKattouw>	werdna: OK it looks like I could do this, but I'd only meet people in Berlin, and I'd have a have one-hour waits in both Angermuende and Szczecin
[23:09:42] <RoanKattouw>	To Trevor in absentia: I'll work on the lang-spec icon infrastructure in the morning, hopefully Hannes and I will have a working implementation plus noob-oriented docs when you guys start work
[23:10:13] *RoanKattouw 	hopes Trevor actually reads that