[00:00:36] lol [00:00:43] Where is it ? [00:00:51] it's sikrit [00:00:56] :p [00:01:03] "end of April" [00:01:10] *Romaine seeks password [00:01:21] sesami open you [00:01:33] more seriously, it will be rolled out incrementally as the team checks it scales [00:11:56] so, now I know so much... [00:18:23] nn [15:37:22] I see little outrage on Commons :D good work. [17:55:07] nkomura: hi [17:55:14] hi [17:55:22] i was just replying to your email [17:55:26] how's your family? [17:55:33] they're feeling better [17:55:38] I hope I didn't get anyone sick [17:55:43] Niel is out ill [17:55:48] not sure what his symptoms are [17:56:08] i've having trouble with my stomach, but nothing near to your condition [17:56:31] :( [17:56:31] i'm seeing a doctor this friday [17:56:34] k [17:57:01] are you feeling strong enough for your travel? [17:57:17] i am [17:57:19] I feel great [17:57:26] that's great [17:57:49] my daughter Cadence was able to keep food down late last night [17:58:05] I made her popcicles made of Pedialite [17:58:38] i don't know what pedialite is [17:59:02] sorry, I spelled it wrong [17:59:03] we all caught a stomach bug? [17:59:06] http://pedialyte.com/ [17:59:09] s/we/you/ [17:59:22] pedia lite [17:59:24] my wife and daughter Cadence [17:59:31] not Aurora [17:59:34] see, I knew there ware a problem with abreviating wikipedia -> pedia [17:59:39] ha ha [17:59:51] now the offline reader will make people thing of... [17:59:54] *think of... [17:59:56] you know :-P [18:00:11] small children... [18:00:23] no [18:00:36] diarrhea :-P [18:01:02] (sorry but you walked right into that one) [18:01:17] oh... I was thinking of the "Dinner Party" IT Crowd episode ... "It's Peter File not Pedophile" [18:01:53] must read that last line in a British accent [18:03:26] ahh [18:03:29] :-) [18:04:07] brb [18:04:10] software updates [18:04:11] k [18:05:07] software updates that require a reboot? What is he using, Windows? :P [18:05:10] RoanKattouw: are you there? [18:05:16] macos! [18:06:06] Yes [18:06:55] hi [18:07:02] Morning [18:07:31] Is PrefSwitch stas for Commons viewable now? [18:07:42] Dammit [18:07:48] I'll enable tracking right away [18:08:29] if that's the case, will you run the query for me to find out how many users switched back to Monobook as of now? [18:13:10] Sure just a sec [18:13:22] I'm enabling prefstats tracking on Commons now [18:15:36] nkomura: 500 users [18:15:47] that's it? [18:15:51] thanks [18:15:56] how many people were affected? [18:16:10] hmm I guess we need to know how many people logged in though too [18:16:17] still, that seems like great numbers [18:16:58] apergos: there are about 2500 active users in Commons [18:17:38] http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikispecial/EN/PlotsPngWikipediansEditsGt5.htm [18:18:23] hmm [18:19:05] and around 6000 active editors http://stats.wikimedia.org/reportcard/ [18:19:56] they don't include anonymous users though [18:20:17] no but anons can't opt oout right? [18:20:35] they need to log-in to opt-out [18:20:36] I was just wondering how many users logged in, to get the percentage [18:20:41] as it requires pref changes [18:20:44] right [18:21:06] if 2500 logged in, 500 changed, that's 4 of 5 keeping it (for example) [18:21:38] Oh, question: [18:21:52] If a project wants to switch back to Monobook site-wide, what's the response? [18:22:24] apergos: 2500 is not logged in, but active [18:22:37] On Commons, those numbers are hugely different because of SUL and the nature of Commons [18:22:43] right [18:23:38] Marybelle: so far we have been seeing support for the new UI [18:23:42] Marybelle: Hebrew Wikipedia requested this. I don't think there's an official response yet but I assume their request would just be honored [18:23:57] Hm or did they [18:24:05] what I want is the number of logged in users... one might guess that it's close to the number of logged in users that made edits over the last day (people who access the file description page by clicking through froma pedia article probably don't need [18:24:13] Not sure whether there was actually a consensus on hewiki for keeping Monobook, looking [18:24:15] to be counted, they also probably didn't bother to look at skinchanges) [18:24:18] based on the beta feedback and communications to admins of commons [18:24:33] RoanKattouw: there was no consensus yet [18:25:16] i agree with apergos [18:25:22] is there any way we can get the logged in number? [18:26:01] we could get the edits out of rc, grab the user names and sort | uniq them I guess, something like that [18:26:11] (tossing ips) [18:27:36] Sounds more complicated than it needs to be. You don't need uniq if you use DISTINCT. And you don't need to toss out IPs if you add rc_user != 0... [18:28:59] sorry, I was not talking about a sql query, I was thinking from my usual "user with no access to db and has to go through the api" hat :-P [18:29:39] I know it's WFH day but you should at least wear your sysadmin hat during office hours ;) [18:29:44] yes, if you just query the db directly it's much quicker :-P [18:29:48] heh [18:29:56] well I was just looking at the login api change so [18:30:06] brain was in that context :-D [18:30:17] Heh [18:30:40] (at least that change is really quick for bot writers to implement.) [18:30:49] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Vector#How_do_I_change_the_skin_back_site-wide.3F [18:31:14] Marybelle: Since you're doing COUNT(DISTINCT rc_user) you might as well drop WHERE rc_user !=0 and just subtract one from the result [18:31:19] Which is what I'm gonna do right now [18:31:34] :-D [18:31:52] because if the number is one off, that will badly skew the ratio :-P [18:32:00] *apergos is just being snotty now [18:32:24] so... whadda we got? [18:32:36] 27993 distinct users in recentchanges, one of which is 0 (anons) [18:32:44] in last 24 hours? [18:32:49] or 36 or something [18:33:12] Seems to be a month [18:33:20] ah you didn't limit [18:33:24] MIN(rc_timestamp) is 20100308183156 [18:33:27] yeah we want for the last 36 hours [18:33:34] Oh OK [18:33:36] since beta went live right? [18:33:41] and the opt outs since then [18:34:05] 24h: 2255 [18:34:16] 48h: 3801 [18:34:47] Since switchover (Apr 6, 07:00 UTC): 3127 [18:36:20] ok [18:36:54] so 500 (if those are all after the push) out of 3127 is 1/6, pretty good ratio I think [18:37:06] < 1/6 [18:38:34] The 500 number comes from those who used the opt out link or those who have changed their prefs manually or both? [18:39:09] Both [18:39:31] SELECT COUNT(*) FROM user_properties WHERE up_property='skin' AND up_value='monobook'; [18:39:39] so that ratio is not bad [18:39:55] It's pretty much in line with the retention rates we've seen right? [18:39:57] 80ish % [18:40:01] it's pretty close to the ratio we had during the beta [18:40:08] yeah [18:40:25] beta retention for commons a little higher, but in the same ballpark [18:41:44] yeah commons has been about 85-86% [18:41:53] and the 500 is since the switch? [18:42:13] so yeah, the ratio is about the same [18:44:12] apergos: Pre-switch, there were no rows with up_value='monobook' because it was the default value [18:44:24] Rows with up_value='vector' should be dying out as user caches are purged [18:44:29] gotcha [18:44:35] ok [18:44:49] (otherwise the ratio might have been even better ;-) ) [18:44:56] There's probably a bunch of them left, but they'll disappear as soon as those people change their prefs [18:45:08] right [18:45:39] Ha, still 8373 of those rows on Commons [18:47:05] wow [18:47:50] RoanKattouw: can you explain what do you mean by two sentences ago? [18:48:10] nkomura: Remember how the default preference is not stored? [18:48:20] yes [18:48:56] So I was explaining to apergos how that meant that all rows with skin=monobook had to have been created after the switchover, not before [18:49:24] Similarly, rows with skin=vector should be disappearing now as users touch their prefs and their pref data is regenerated and saved [18:51:03] so we can overcome this by introducing the default setting? [18:51:57] Well yeah so the system is like restoring itself over time [18:52:20] Because we changed the default, some rows that previously couldn't exist (skin=monobook) are now coming into existence [18:52:36] And other rows that previously existed (skin=vector) suddenly can't exist anymore and are disappearing over time [18:52:39] what i mean by 'default' setting is independent of monobook, vector, or other skins [18:53:01] There's not really a problem here, I was just describing an interesting technical phenomenon to apergos :) [18:53:15] k [19:16:30] adam_miller: "preventing the text from changing with key up and down events" --> does that mean you removed a feature? [19:16:55] no, just changed a boolean parameter that was being passed from true to false [19:17:30] so i guess i stopped using a feature [19:17:30] OK so you didn't remove the feature, but you disabled it? [19:17:44] yeah that's a more accurate statement [19:18:43] RoanKattouw: got anything else I can help out with? Those changes took a lot less time than I was thinking they would [19:19:05] IE jumping bugs? [19:19:08] *RoanKattouw hides [19:19:18] have any fresh ideas on that? [19:19:25] BTW any reason that feature was disabled? I liked it personally but I guess someone told you to do it? [19:19:38] i really have no idea what else to do to fix the IE jumping bug [19:19:49] It was disabled at Paru and Trevor's requesting [19:20:09] maybe something that came out of the usability initiative? [19:20:36] OH you know what would be hot? we should watch for tab key presses, and auto fill it then [19:21:16] would that give you back what you enjoyed about it RoanKattouw? [19:22:12] Heh that'd be nice [19:22:27] Nah don't bother, I personally liked its semantics but if Trevor and Paru say it has to go it has to go [19:27:09] Hmm [19:27:17] Other open bugs in Bugzilla I guess [19:27:31] I'm sorry for not having much of a clue, I've been busy with school work and buying a bike (yay!) [19:27:53] what kind of a bike? [19:28:02] A racing bike [19:28:06] (As in bicycle) [19:28:11] anyone want to look at the weird little section-size issue in the toolbar? :-P [19:28:13] as in track bike? [19:28:27] Well it's really more of a hybrid between a mountain bike and a road bike [19:28:41] It comes with MTB tires but I'm switching those for road tires [19:29:00] apergos: Oh right I totally forgot about that [19:29:06] heh [19:29:13] apergos: Can you point me to an environment that has the necessary JS to replicate that? [19:29:22] el.wiktionary :-P [19:29:49] Oh it's in site JS there? [19:30:00] http://el.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=%CE%92%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%B9%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%BE%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%8C:%CE%9A%CF%8D%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%B1_%CE%A3%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%AF%CE%B4%CE%B1&action=edit [19:30:02] uh huh [19:30:24] I ckick "Ειδικοί Χαρακτήρες" and then "Τοπικά" [19:30:30] (wihtout closing the first section) [19:30:57] haha [19:30:59] I see it [19:31:06] ther eis apparently some other variant of the "first line of the text input area is hidden" bug cause someone sent me a screenshot, but I'll give you that later [19:31:15] cause I don't know how to reproduce it [19:31:25] see how it thinks the section height is still 133 or whatever it is? [19:32:11] but what;s fun is if I go to Πρότυπα" and then to Τοπικά it does not happen. [19:32:50] Strange thing is it does happen for Βοήθεια [19:33:12] So from Help or Special chars to custom toolbar --> bug [19:33:19] From custom booklet to custom toolbar --> no bug [19:33:24] I can't get it to do it for Βοήθεια [19:33:51] heh [19:33:58] Didn't do it for me the first time, did do it the second time ^^ [19:34:02] :-D [19:34:16] but it is more or less predictable for Ειδικοί Χαρακτήρες [19:34:46] Yeah [19:34:53] Hey adam_miller you were looking for work, right? ;) [19:34:58] :-D [19:36:48] maybe... [19:37:05] i'm reading over what i missed [19:39:21] what language is this? [19:39:57] greek [19:40:43] yo tom aszf whazzup? [19:42:57] heya [19:43:25] just got back from garden time lunch and dentist beforehand [19:43:50] gorgeous downstairs with weather like this [19:44:31] ah [19:44:36] I could open the window I guess [19:46:09] adam_miller: Not high prio though, looking through Bugzilla [19:46:41] took me a while to navigate the prefs, but finally got the wikieditor rendering on that page and saw what you were talking about [19:47:29] adam_miller: There's this bug about IE8 not picking up the selection in the link dialog, but I fear that's related [19:47:58] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23061 [19:50:48] Hmm so I have to get up at 5:50 in the morning and it's almost 10 [19:50:58] So I'll be copying a movie to my laptop and be off to get some sleep [19:52:14] good night RoanKattouw [19:53:11] have a nice night [19:54:36] seeya [20:46:54] hey, usabilitians [20:47:29] how are you feeling flipzagging? [20:47:42] not great, but I can get in a decent amount of hrs today [20:47:57] i'm supposed to head to the E. bay later today anyway for some arm physio [20:48:05] which already is a bite out of the day :( [20:48:12] nkomura: how are you doing? [20:49:14] doing ok [20:49:31] general question though, for people working on WikiEditor, do you have any tricks for making jQuery.ui widgets work with monobook? There's something about it that bollixes up z-index for me. [20:50:53] maybe i'll ask that by email [20:53:27] that's a question to trevor or roan [20:53:36] they are not in this room right now [21:30:08] apergos: I fixed that issue you and Roan were talking about earlier [21:30:18] will commit in a second [21:30:22] wow sweet! [21:30:25] that is awesome [22:15:11] apergos: thanks to your translation [22:15:26] sure. well flyax did many corrections also [22:15:28] greek translation for the usability initiative is now close to 100% [22:15:29] http://translatewiki.net/wiki/User:GerardM/usability-stats [22:15:36] I think we are 100% [22:15:44] there was one message and I just added it a few minutes ago [22:15:58] GerardM- keeps track of the translation status for the usability initiative [22:17:28] I read that as « geek translation for the usability initiative is now close to 100% » :) [22:18:10] :-D [22:18:21] haha [22:18:21] well the geeks are very productive these days! [22:23:15] how often do these stats get updated? [22:24:08] i don't know, -> q to GerardM- [22:24:36] I guess it's an idle question really [22:33:15] *nkomura nkomura_away [22:35:01] 22:15 < nkomura> greek translation for the usability initiative is now close to 100% [22:35:05] I read that as geek translation [22:35:08] oh, guillom did too [22:35:09] lol [22:35:21] :D [22:35:52] great minds [22:36:09] I've always found that expression somewhat indulgent ;) [22:37:05] of course it is [22:37:22] if you don't indulge yourself, who will? [22:38:57] :-D [22:47:25] *werdna indulges guillom [22:47:38] *werdna does not indulge philippe [22:48:31] Good man. [22:48:33] anyone who has to read W3C specifications deserves to be indulged [22:49:00] but I might cheat, only skim through it and just leave that to someone else [22:49:47] Hoi, the statistics are updated when I ask Siebrand ... I did .. and am blogging about it [22:59:52] ok [23:02:32] « Obviously the ppl pushing for this new skin change are the kind of morons with no place whatsoever in wp and should go play cutesy pixels in Wikia or some corporate outlet » [23:02:37] that's nice [23:02:53] there's someone who put a lot of thought into their feedback :-/ [23:02:57] http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2010/04/your-localisation-is-needed-to-improve.html [23:03:13] werdna: i saw email from eugene that LQT is enabled for office wiki [23:03:30] we should make the usability beta default there too [23:03:34] it is enabled [23:03:35] see: [23:03:40] http://office.wikimedia.org/wiki/Village_pump [23:03:51] (lqt) [23:03:54] i've been postponing to act on that [23:04:07] it is a great message when people know that the foundation eats its own dogfood [23:04:19] nkomura: I thought it was already the default? [23:04:24] or is that just the skin? [23:04:32] I'm on office and I see monobook [23:04:39] GerardM-: foundation staff are way way way easier to please than communities ;) [23:04:41] not yet [23:05:17] where a wikipedia community whines about the thickness of a dividing line, Wikimedia staff sing your praises for a massive improvement :) [23:05:25] but that is not the message Google also uses its own first before they feed it to the masses [23:05:45] they do not stop telling you this [23:08:17] and also .. I am sure people of the office are better listened to [23:08:54] I am unsure about that [23:09:51] it would be weird if this was not the case [23:10:29] I mean I think often people look at staff as meddling outsiders rather than trusted sources of advice or whatever [23:11:06] any cred I have on the projects I am on comes from my having been and still being a community member there [23:11:10] ymmv [23:12:20] what am I but an outsider .. the staff are professionals at what they do ... they are power users of the software ... and they are close to the development team [23:13:03] well your attitude is different than a lot of folks [23:13:24] right, I achieve more then a lot of folks [23:14:40] and I can be a pain as well if I feel it is needed [23:14:56] anyway off to bed [23:15:03] Staff have a greater than usual focus on doing their job :p [23:15:15] but you're right, they are better-listened-to. [23:15:29] If Sue sends me an email about LiquidThreads, her issue is fixed within 48 hours :p [23:16:09] ah, I meant (and I thought he meant) "better listend to by the community" [23:16:28] good night [23:16:28] well, cary would disagree with that, considering he's been asking for an upgrade of OTRS for a year, now [23:16:54] *kibble interrupts guillom's meeting to hug him. [23:17:19] *guillom interrupts the meeting he is apparently in, and hugs kibble [23:17:24] :D [23:17:41] (I saw a bunch of talking, so I assumed it was a meeting :P) [23:17:50] though, since I'm working from home today, I don't know what meeting that is. Perhaps I should put some pants on [23:18:17] we have a strict pants rule around here! [23:18:19] Nah, it's okay, it lightens up a boring meeting. [23:18:21] you have to wear some! [23:18:57] brightens* (?) and I'm supposed to be a native. :-( [23:22:28] guillom: well yes, people tend to listen to their supervisors, and their supervisors, and so on [23:34:00] there is a pants rule ... shit .. [23:34:05] :D [23:35:14] tomaszf: [23:35:18] get 'em on [23:37:53] i checked my hiring contract .. pants were sooo not on their for wfh [23:49:38] tomaszf: haha, seriously? [23:49:41] what does it say? [23:52:06] pretty sure i bargained for more beer and less pants [23:52:08] now thats a motta :D [23:52:11] motto* [23:58:13] "WMF: more beer, less pants" ? [23:58:20] /topic [23:58:22] :-P