[17:03:40] <hannes-_->	hi nkomura
[17:03:53] <nkomura>	hi hannes-_-
[17:04:14] <nkomura>	how're you? Are you in London?
[17:05:13] <hannes-_->	no
[17:05:27] <hannes-_->	I had to cancle the flight
[17:05:50] <hannes-_->	cause my daughter was very sick
[17:05:51] <nkomura>	oh?
[17:06:07] <nkomura>	which one?
[17:06:13] <hannes-_->	the older one
[17:06:40] <nkomura>	i'm sorry to hear that
[17:06:52] <hannes-_->	no worries,...she is better today
[17:07:06] <hannes-_->	and I had a travel insurance
[17:07:13] <hannes-_->	so I hope I ll get the money backl
[17:07:47] <hannes-_->	what about the meeting today? shall I call in now?
[17:08:14] <nkomura>	no it's okay
[17:08:24] <nkomura>	sorry i didn't send out the cancellation note
[17:08:55] <nkomura>	everyone except pdhanda, nimish and I
[17:09:02] <nkomura>	and three of us had a quick meeting yesterday
[17:09:18] <pdhanda>	and pdhanda is about to go take a nap since it is so quiet here
[17:09:28] <pdhanda>	:D
[17:09:42] <nkomura>	yeah we can meditate here
[17:09:57] <nkomura>	whole tech section to two of us so far
[17:16:25] <apergos>	I am working from home today
[17:16:32] <apergos>	tomorrow I'll be in the office as usual though
[17:17:50] <nkomura>	hey apergos
[17:17:55] <apergos>	hello
[17:17:58] <apergos>	how are things?
[17:18:22] <nkomura>	very quiet here in the office
[17:18:52] <nkomura>	thedj: there?
[17:41:51] <guillom>	hi nkomura
[17:42:05] <guillom>	do you know if neil left already?
[17:42:07] <nkomura>	hi guillom
[17:42:26] <nkomura>	neil left yesterday
[17:42:34] <nkomura>	he should be in berlin by now
[17:42:34] <guillom>	ok
[17:42:37] <guillom>	thanks
[17:42:46] <nkomura>	how's mw2010 going?
[17:42:52] <guillom>	I was hoping he would update the prototype before leaving
[17:42:55] <guillom>	it's going very well
[17:43:21] <guillom>	we're currently doing the introductions and listing the topics we're going to work on this afternoon
[17:43:30] <nkomura>	wittylama is sending update via twitter
[17:44:23] <mdale>	what is our etherpad  url ?
[17:44:30] <nkomura>	i see the room is quite full, are they mainly folks from GLAM?
[17:44:40] <mdale>	nkomura: you in berlin?
[17:44:54] <nkomura>	mdale: let me get it for u one sec
[17:44:58] <nkomura>	no i'm in the office
[17:47:01] <mdale>	or actually I am looking for some of the pages from the all-staff meetin
[17:47:04] <mdale>	meeting ..
[17:47:15] <mdale>	did thous get transferred to a wiki ?
[17:47:47] <nkomura>	from the tech working group?
[17:49:49] <mdale>	I found one of them: http://etherpad.com/ZaqAAgb0aI
[17:49:56] <nkomura>	http://eiximenis.wikimedia.org:9000/X0UFuh44Ub
[17:50:58] <mdale>	nkomura: thanks
[17:50:59] <nkomura>	are you worried about the data being lost after tomorrow?
[17:51:12] <mdale>	I guess so
[17:51:19] <mdale>	looks like they are shutting it off
[17:51:29] <nkomura>	yeah erik sent us the reminder
[17:51:45] <nkomura>	the one i have above is on wikimedia domain
[17:57:57] <thedj>	nkomura: ?
[17:58:36] <nkomura>	hi thedj
[17:59:09] <thedj>	hi. did you need me ?
[17:59:13] <nkomura>	i was reading your conversation with Marybelle in yesterday's log
[17:59:47] <thedj>	ah that.
[17:59:59] <nkomura>	and wanted to check in if you observed that Commons users felt the default UI change was forced
[18:00:19] <nkomura>	we thought to offer the new UI and provide a easy way to opt-out
[18:00:35] <nkomura>	so that at least all users have a chance to evaluate at least once
[18:00:47] <nkomura>	as the beta has been evolving over time
[18:01:07] <thedj>	nkomura: i'm not sure if everyone understands the "New !" link as the method to opt out.
[18:01:49] <nkomura>	we debated whether to have two links, one is "New" and the other is "Take me back"
[18:02:40] <nkomura>	but decide to combine
[18:03:42] <thedj>	i think there will always be people that have trouble with those links.
[18:04:01] <thedj>	perhaps make it a tad more descriptive "New Interface !"
[18:04:37] <nkomura>	yeah
[18:04:58] <thedj>	i think that in general response has been reasonable though. A few people remarked something along the lines of:
[18:05:23] <thedj>	"why not just switch the default for anon, and let the rest opt-in"
[18:05:59] <thedj>	beyond that most complainst were about broken scripts (which there will still a surprising amount of), and complaints about mediawiki 1.16 which had nothing to do with vector.
[18:06:17] <nkomura>	that would be more sophisticated approach
[18:06:45] <thedj>	Another problem is the admin links...
[18:06:56] <thedj>	and extra tools.
[18:07:19] <thedj>	their loading is now animated, which slows down pageloading when you first open the edit window.
[18:08:25] <nkomura>	it improves from the second time tho?
[18:08:55] <Marybelle>	I'm not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing to force a skin change.
[18:09:04] <Marybelle>	But nobody should pretend that Commons or any project asked for it.
[18:09:08] <thedj>	nkomura: yes.
[18:09:31] <Marybelle>	WMF got a grant and they spent it. And part of that grant is showing progress—changing the default skin on WMF projects.
[18:09:32] <Marybelle>	B
[18:10:02] <Marybelle>	But it's not like it was particularly optional for the projects. And anything that suggests that it is/was is simply wrong.
[18:10:26] <thedj>	nkomura: still, those extra tools push view/edit/history around. making their position non predictable, which is usually bad interface design.
[18:11:17] <thedj>	nkomura: if Commons really doesn't want the tools in a menu, then something else has to be figured out for that situation...
[18:11:39] <thedj>	Though I honestly don't know what.
[18:13:20] <nkomura>	commons has extra user tools which require additional tabs
[18:14:07] <nkomura>	we worked with the script writers for tools such as CatScan to make the tool compatible
[18:14:12] <nkomura>	with Vector
[18:14:16] <thedj>	yes but the extra tabs are a problem
[18:14:21] <nkomura>	but i'm sure there are some more
[18:14:29] <nkomura>	you mean the drop-down?
[18:14:35] <thedj>	because they make the position of the view/edit/history tabs upredictable.
[18:15:22] <thedj>	http://imagebin.ca/view/iPOebTfh.html
[18:15:27] <thedj>	http://imagebin.ca/view/UxbGHFf9.html
[18:16:26] <guillom>	nkomura, I think in the future it'd be nice to coordinate with Tim so that MediaWiki code update don't happen at the same time (or 2 days after) as usability releases, because it sends a wrong message and confuses people
[18:16:32] <guillom>	updates*
[18:16:40] <thedj>	since "edit" is one of the most oft clicked and most important elements, it's position in the window should be predictable. with the amount of tabs differing so much per page, that predictability is lost.
[18:17:27] <nkomura>	guillom: i agree
[18:17:52] <nkomura>	thedj: the first screenshot is for the discussion page, and the second one is for an article page
[18:17:56] <nkomura>	right?
[18:18:33] <thedj>	nkomura: first is of a project space page + newsection, and the second of a file description page.
[18:21:01] <nkomura>	thedj: "View" + "Edit" are always visible and "View History" may push down to the drop down menu
[18:21:26] <nkomura>	we haven't looked into the tab situation for the second screenshot you shared with me tho
[18:22:04] <nkomura>	While "View History" may move around depending on the screen resolution
[18:22:31] <nkomura>	"View" and "Edit" are always consistent in terms of visual presentation tho
[18:23:02] <thedj>	yes, what i meant was that whereas on most pages i expect edit to be "top right", on the Commons File description pages my assumptions are "top right" "oh, no, have to move my pointer further left, further left, still further".
[18:23:35] <nkomura>	ah gotcha
[18:24:02] <nkomura>	while i look at "Edit" tab to be consistent on the second left, Common users feel it gets pushed out
[18:24:33] <thedj>	well i do, not sure what others think of course :D
[18:24:38] <nkomura>	I agree that tab navigation of Commons need to look into further
[18:27:33] <nkomura>	guillom: but the mw push was urgent patch
[18:27:48] <nkomura>	so i don't think we could have avoided that even if we had coordinated the release
[18:28:31] <guillom>	nkomura, yeah, I'm more thinking of the deployment of mediawiki 1.16
[18:28:45] <guillom>	(sorry, not watching the screen very closely)
[18:29:49] <nkomura>	guillom: yeah the new deployment branch is created noow
[18:29:50] <nkomura>	now
[18:30:19] <nkomura>	if we are staging on the new branch, we cannot release until the new deployment branch goes out..
[18:30:40] <guillom>	vector + security issue impacting Commonist + upload form broken by 1.16 = a lot of unhappy, or even angry Commons users