[00:07:38] nkomura: About? [00:09:45] i'm about to sign off [00:09:49] what's up? [00:09:56] Where can comments about the logo go? [00:10:24] one of fifty different places. [00:10:30] there is active discussion going on at foundation-l [00:10:42] that's probably the most central [00:11:03] comments to blog post from jay would be another good place [00:11:17] let me dig up the link for you [00:11:41] http://blog.wikimedia.org/2010/05/13/wikipedia-in-3d/ [00:12:00] My comments are mostly mean. [00:12:01] i didn't know there are 88 comments there [00:12:10] Perhaps I'll keep them on my talk page for now. [00:12:11] :( [00:12:15] I'd hate to see them drowned out. [00:12:18] :-) [00:12:24] How's code folding? [00:12:33] we set up user experience feedback page for wikipedia [00:12:44] I think I saw something like that. [00:12:44] we are actively reviewing the comments there [00:12:54] It was fully protected for a bit, tsk. :P [00:13:03] really? [00:13:06] I hope the logo gets improved. [00:13:09] Yeah, Philippe's doing. [00:13:18] The subject-space page, not the talk page. [00:13:50] Anyway, I hope to see the logo improved and some actual usability improvements in the future. Fingers crossed. [00:14:04] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:User_experience_feedback [00:14:13] is this the page you are referring to? [00:14:29] i can add a topic as anonymous [00:15:23] please let me know if you have trouble adding a post there [00:15:36] i've got to run. ttyl [00:15:40] See ya. :-) [00:15:46] bye [00:59:13] for the few still around: [00:59:14] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page#New_format_ROCKS [00:59:20] Just for the neutrality (and pollution of this talk page), I'm gonna say it. I love the new format. No, this is not a joke. No, I'm not being sarcastic. Yes, I really mean it. [00:59:24] Okay, maybe I think the new logo has the globe too little, and the puzzle pieces intersection isn't really clear. Aaaaand its more difficult for me to read an article because the left bar makes more contrast (being gray and everything). But taking out those little issues, I LOVE it. --Fixman [01:06:19] positivity, it's rare, but at least it exists [01:35:09] TrevorParscal: came up with an idea for the tabs running into eachother on small widths ... [01:35:27] see https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20234#c1 [01:40:56] will poke [09:11:22] a french person have just put the corrections into the old logo: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Wikipedia_svg_logo-fr_v1.9.svg [10:59:12] *thedj pours RoanKattouw a cup of tea [11:00:12] *RoanKattouw wonders what strings are attached to that cup of tea, notes he won't be working much if at all today [11:00:24] no strings :D [11:01:14] seems yesterday went pretty well, good job [11:02:37] Well there's still that nasty search bug [11:02:53] I assigned that to Adam but didn't realize he doesn't usually work on Thursdays [11:03:05] well a couple search bugs. [11:03:17] but in case of emergency, there is a quick alternative of course. [11:03:19] They're all pretty much the same [11:03:33] Oh yeah the "Disable AJAX search" pref doesn't work bug [11:44:18] hi [11:51:40] Mike||gone: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikibooks-logo-sq.svg [11:51:48] ang will give me more time [15:50:44] *thedj thinks that perhaps the new search should be temp disabled. [15:50:47] too many problems. [15:52:29] guillom: can you poke someone about that, or send a mail around ? [15:52:55] thedj: I don't know what these problems are [15:53:02] and to be honest it's not my job [15:53:35] and nobody would read such an e-mail before they come to work [15:53:46] so, in the end, you'd be better off just telling them when they arrive :) [15:54:02] they aren't in yet ? [15:54:12] no, it's not even 9am [15:54:14] not necessarily [15:54:20] some people type from home til the last minute [15:54:41] (me for example). but I'll be in a little later in the morning, I have an errand before I go in [15:54:41] apergos: members of the community (like you, me, cary) don't count [15:54:51] heh [15:54:52] oh wait i thought it was almost 10. [15:54:59] no, just about 9. [15:55:09] most people are in before ten [15:55:33] well yesterday 28000 IE users did right click paste in the searchbox leading to these stats: http://stats.grok.se/en/201005/Null :D [15:57:15] hahaha [15:57:55] people on other browsers who do that go to search= :D [15:57:58] wow [15:58:15] well null is popular, what can I say :-D [16:23:47] cary: oops: http://stats.grok.se/en/201005/Null [16:24:31] fyi, it is bug https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23517 [16:24:57] I know [16:28:04] and I care because... :) [16:29:58] because it is a TRAVESTY! [11:12:25] RobH: you around? [11:14:10] yep [11:14:15] Ryan_Lane: ping back [11:14:20] cool [11:14:29] sup homie? [11:14:32] RobH: what's our patching policy? [11:14:42] in regards to security patches? [11:14:47] you guys just install security patches, or everything? [11:15:00] mostly just security unless there is a pressing need for another. [11:15:03] ok [11:15:19] what's the apt-get flag to do that on ubuntu? [11:15:23] but thats only because most of the servers are just reinstalled with every LTS release [11:15:35] if you are patching for systems whee you know all wont fubar ir [11:15:36] it [11:15:39] feel free to do all [11:16:03] well, on the prototypes, I'd like to patch the same way as the cluster [11:16:12] I'll probably do all on the selenium nodes/hub [11:16:26] hrmm, i may be wrong, reviewing my notes [11:16:28] where is Trevor! [11:16:33] on apaches and squids we just update all [11:16:42] ah ok [11:16:45] because we usually reinstall them all the time [11:16:52] that works then [11:16:55] so half the time they are wiped and reinstalled rather than upgraded, heh [11:16:58] This is so off topic [11:17:05] I feel like I'm in *another* channel :) [11:17:06] on the other servers, its on a case by case basis [11:17:13] cary: eh? what is? [11:17:23] :) [11:17:38] well, the prototypes are essentially like the apaches, so update all will probably be fine [11:18:23] cary: I'll start talking about solaris if you really want off-topic :) [11:18:39] yea if its apache cluster, update all [11:18:46] on some things like the pdf cluster i wont update all [11:18:46] a [11:18:52] nd only install the specific package upgrades [11:18:54] yeah, I can understand that [11:19:06] (IE i only update apache and such, i have no idea what the apt command for security only updates are) [11:19:11] the mwlib crap is fragile [11:19:13] everything i google seems to require other packages [11:19:53] grumbloe [11:21:09] RobH: Oh, I wanted to switch the prototypes over to use varnish through the grid server [11:21:20] RobH: which will require some DNS changes. [11:21:32] thats no problem, just email me all the changes =] [11:21:37] RobH: though I guess I should warn people that the way they SSH in is going to change.... [11:21:48] we can leave the old dns in place for awhile too if you need both up [11:22:02] well, unfortunately, we won't be able to [11:22:26] since prototype.wikimedia.org will need to point to the varnish server [11:22:45] so we'll need to make another DNS entry to ssh into the system [11:32:55] ahh, i see whatcha mean [12:00:11] Ryan_Lane: how's it? [12:00:34] TrevorParscal: good. u? [12:01:19] i'm great [12:01:27] today is my last day before a 2 week vacation [12:01:32] nice [12:02:02] you going anywhere, or just taking a break? [12:07:05] TrevorParscal: it is? [12:07:09] where are you going? [12:32:26] i'm going to disneyland [12:39:58] Not until you finish this damn globe [12:40:35] -damn + lovely [12:40:53] Otourly, your PNGs are all the wrong size. [12:41:02] ? :s [12:41:19] cary what is the size ? [12:41:26] 135 x 155 [12:41:38] cary and the logo will be change ? [12:41:38] same as the svgs [12:41:48] don't worry about it yet :) [12:41:54] so [12:42:08] we continu the localisation ? [12:42:09] not until the globe is updated [12:42:14] not yet [12:42:17] ok [12:42:25] je me disais aussi [12:43:13] [[Commons:User_talk:Bastique#File:Wikipedia-logo-v2-ka.svg]] [12:43:30] stupid single language fonts. [12:45:02] lol @ topic. [12:45:30] we're going to be #wikimedia-ux one day [12:45:39] right now it's just Ashlee and me. [12:45:41] scary thought [12:52:06] cary: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Wikipedia_svg_logo-fr_v1.9.svg :D [12:53:33] just since people keep asking about it, what was the reasoning behind the search box move? was it just to clean off the sidebar? [12:54:07] Jamesofur: it has the usability implications too [12:54:24] Jamesofur, you need to watch the Usability studies. [12:54:26] during the first usability study majority of participants did not use the search box in wikipedia [12:54:40] during the second usability study after the search box was moved [12:54:49] we found the reverse effect [12:55:00] majority of the participants did use the search box in wikipedia [12:55:08] it is not just the moving the search box [12:55:18] the search result page was drastically simplified [12:55:23] People can't *find* the search box in the old location. [12:55:28] which helped to retain users to use the search in WP [12:55:35] *Jamesofur nods [12:55:56] for users who are used to the old locations, yes, unfortunately [12:56:08] Otourly: pffff [12:56:38] it takes a little while to adjust to the new layout when the frequently used tool is moved [12:57:07] that is scary [12:57:13] it may be possible to make the left side bar configuration in the far future [12:58:01] ideally, the user should be able to move parts of the interface around; but I don't think we'll see that happen before a few yers [12:58:03] +a [12:58:23] yeah [12:58:32] guillom: I'm not the autor :P [13:00:49] yea, It never actually bothered by the search box move (I swear I never even realized it on commons...) but it is by far the biggest complain in -en-help and pm [13:04:17] Otourly, I'm so frightened by this globe. [13:05:09] Cary: I understand... [13:05:28] cary: What is the idea for the wiktionaries then ? :D [13:05:36] Jamesofur: we are behind in responding to the comments [13:05:58] Otourly, oh boy [13:06:03] we'll state our rationale behind it (r: search box) [13:06:23] *Jamesofur is trying to convince SimpleWiki not to attempt to veto the rollout there [13:06:26] do we really have an obligation to respond to every comment? [13:06:35] Not every comment [13:06:48] but you have so much proof that the new search bar position is better, you need to demonstrate it. [13:07:15] that would be appreciated nkomura thank you. In the end I actually think this is much better for the new users/readers but it is frustrating to see so much... anger [13:07:19] *Jamesofur shrugs [13:07:47] Jamesofur: call them crybabies and see if that helps xD [13:07:55] pdhanda: hexmode wanted to talk a little about continuum, if you have some time [13:07:57] Ryan_Lane: I am going to give Andrew ( papyromancer ) an account on prototype to setup his selenium testing sandbox space where should that go? [13:07:59] pdhanda: I'd really like to get a continuum server up... something to run these tests... [13:08:02] Jamesofur: it hurts me to see people upset [13:08:06] and here I am! [13:08:10] The difference for new users is the difference between night and day. [13:08:16] mdale: if you'd like, I can set up a new sandbox for him [13:08:25] *cary waves hexmode [13:08:31] ekimmargni: already had 1 "I should quit because obviously they just don't care about established users hence why they never asked US if we wanted it" [13:08:37] hey cary [13:09:09] cary: r5 ? [13:09:22] ie like sandbox.10 ? [13:09:54] should probably not share the same database as the other sandboxes [13:09:57] my clock says 1 minute [13:09:59] nkomura: Is there any documentation on vector for simple things like adding tabs, or forcing tabs to be hidden/not hidden in the dropdown, or changing the text on a tab, or...? [13:10:06] mdale: true. maybe test-1, etc? [13:10:22] yea I like the sounds of test-1 [13:10:24] mdale: where each test wiki has its own database [13:10:42] that will be more obvious and it will be clear its not for end users to be playing with [13:10:52] where the sandbox we invite people to test things [13:10:53] mdale: is he a volunteer, or staff? [13:11:04] he staff'ish [13:11:07] ok [13:11:10] It'd be really great if there was a way to do that stuff on monobook and vector (where the vector-specific things would just be ignored on monobook, for example trying to move a tab into the drop-down on monobook, which doesn't have a dropdown) [13:11:11] hehe [13:11:37] Does that mean he gets paid in monopoly money? : [13:11:38] :o [13:11:41] papyromancer: make sure to be careful of the other stuff on the system :) [13:12:08] Ryan_Lane: I pinky swear [13:12:11] heh [13:12:51] papyromancer: I'm assuming you want a checkout of trunk? [13:13:24] tomaszf: have you seen: http://xauth.org/ ? [13:13:40] Ryan_Lane: can I make links from phase3/extensions to trunk/extensions? [13:13:46] if so, yes [13:14:04] pdhanda, Ryan_Lane: to really look at integrating all these tests, I need to get continuum set up. Does wmf have resources for that or should I test on my own systems first? [13:14:55] papyromancer: hmm. we need to think how we are going to handle extensions... [13:15:28] papyromancer: we probably want them to be separate from all other wikis. we should probably make people check out anything they need. [13:15:48] hexmode: well, I'd like to get a feeling of what it will do, and how it will interact with everything else [13:16:03] for my needs, I think I just need 5 extension [13:16:10] hexmode: we have room for like 6 more VMs on tesla, I believe [13:16:19] papyromancer: yeah, would be better to check them out [13:16:26] would it be possible for me to ssh in? [13:16:38] papyromancer: yeah, we were going to create an account for you [13:16:47] hexmode: also, what kind of resources does it require? [13:16:53] Ryan_Lane: right... so, though I haven't done it, continuum is supposed to be able to drive phpunit &, through it, seleniuum [13:16:54] hexmode: hardware-wise [13:17:21] Ryan_Lane: not too much... I can set it up and tell you memory requirements [13:17:43] that seems like the best way at this point [13:18:16] Ryan_Lane: if I can ssh in and have my own database user, I can start putting together a small dataset for future testing [13:18:31] hexmode: well, this seems like it could be the thing we use as a test runner for code review integration, so I think it would be good for WMF to run it [13:19:02] totally agree... is there a limit to how much memory you're thinking of for those 6vms? [13:19:13] (the only constraint I can see at this point is memory) [13:19:14] papyromancer: yeah, will give you your own wiki and DB user. or maybe we'll make one DB user for all test wikis [13:19:31] hexmode: lemme look at current resources [13:19:57] Ryan_Lane: I added account papyromancer [13:20:23] mdale: cool [13:20:31] hexmode: well, we have 97% of memory allocated [13:20:38] hexmode: lemme look at actual usage [13:22:32] hexmode: only 1/3 of memory is actually active. 1/2 is consumed. I'd say it would be preferable for new vms to use 1 GB of RAM. We can go higher if necessary [13:23:16] Ryan_Lane: 1GB seems reasonable... Esp since it is just Continuum + phpunit and driving selenium on another box [13:23:35] hexmode: heh. well, same box, different vms ;) [13:23:39] some of the phpunit tests were consuming crazy amounts of memory in 5.2 [13:23:57] hexmode: we can look at the usage, and up it if necessary [13:24:01] Ryan_Lane: right.... just don't want them competeing for the same 1gb [13:24:16] Ryan_Lane: make it so! [13:24:23] yeah. swap usage is 0 right now, so I doubt it'll be an issue :) [13:25:14] :) [13:25:21] hexmode: ubuntu 8.04 good for this? [13:25:27] sure [13:25:33] um... for no [13:25:34] w [13:25:54] I kinda prefer to have php 5.3, but no biggie [13:26:02] I also have various fedora and windows media, but I'd prefer not to use them :) [13:26:12] nah, 8.04 is good [13:26:24] hmm. I could probably do 10.04 [13:27:49] hexmode: you can be the 10.04 guinea pig [13:28:00] ooo!!! [13:28:05] *hexmode squeals [13:28:14] heh [13:28:44] it'll take me a couple days (download/upload) [13:29:21] ok... and since you do this only on fridays (mostly) I shouldn't expect too much before then, right? [13:31:37] well, I have too much stuff to do now to only work this on fridays :) [13:31:48] I've been working part of saturday, and randomly during the week [13:31:54] so, I may get to it tomorrow [13:31:58] ok, tia! [13:32:04] if not, maybe monday or tuesday [13:49:26] So, can people help us direct discussions about the logo to [[Commons:Talk:Wikipedia/2.0]] [13:49:33] on the village pump [13:49:40] Or do I have to go write up a note myself :/ [13:51:02] kibble is helping in foundation-l to direct the discussion to the right place ;) [13:51:20] I am? :o [13:52:31] i saw you responded to sj's question earlier this morning [13:52:45] Ah, okay. :-) [13:53:37] I guess [13:54:24] http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AVillage_pump_%28technical%29&action=historysubmit&diff=362149428&oldid=362147279 [13:54:29] I wound up doing it anyway [13:54:31] *cary is hungry [13:54:54] *hunt-gatherer goes in search of food [13:56:25] *thedj feeds cary some logo 'trolls' :D [13:57:38] thedj, well, I'm not going to follow up with any comments on the VP :) [13:58:38] oooh, jay posted [14:02:25] huntergatherer: will you give me pointer to the logo discussion on commons? [14:02:34] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikipedia/2.0 ? [14:03:29] found it [14:03:30] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikipedia/2.0#Logo_revisions_need_input [14:11:25] <{cary|omnomnom}> enhydra, http://prototype.wikimedia.org/en.wikipedia.org/Main_Page [14:12:14] {cary|omnomnom}, aww, much better now! [14:12:27] {cary|omnomnom}, I would still balance the letters and enlarge the size, though [14:12:35] <{cary|omnomnom}> \o/ [14:12:46] <{cary|omnomnom}> that is enlarged... [14:13:01] I mean enlarging to the previous size [14:13:09] though it’s not that important [14:13:21] letter positions are still in need of tweaking [14:15:20] also, the shadow could be just a little bit better, but it’s a cavil :) [14:16:27] <{cary|omnomnom}> what does better mean in this case [14:16:54] more blurry between Chinese sign and the sign below it [14:17:04] it may be just my monitor, so never mind [14:17:16] <{cary|omnomnom}> oh good [14:17:32] <{cary|omnomnom}> yeah, we've found that it looks different from platform to platform [14:17:35] I recommend aligning characters as Nohat did it originally [14:18:00] aligning characters and making puzzles dependent on this alignment to not to break it [14:18:39] {cary|omnomnom}, if you need a script to update the localized versions, just let me know :) [14:19:31] <{cary|omnomnom}> a script? [14:19:52] <{cary|omnomnom}> It takes too much eye / brain coordination for a script [14:19:55] {cary|omnomnom}, do you want to retouch 250 files manually? [14:20:28] I mean replacing the old render with the better render [14:21:31] (when the latter is finalized, of course) [14:22:07] <{cary|omnomnom}> enhydra, you mean the *old* logos? [14:22:11] <{cary|omnomnom}> or the new ones we did [14:22:19] <{cary|omnomnom}> because the font on the old logos is still wrong [14:22:37] I mean those at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia/2.0 [14:22:42] <{cary|omnomnom}> ah yes [14:23:12] <{cary|omnomnom}> well, once we establish it, we can certainly use all the help we can get. [14:27:33] 3NL4RGE UR LOGO [14:30:51] guillom, enlarge your enlarger and make it polynomial [14:31:14] oh, recursivity; I like that [14:37:50] "I hate your new interface. You could have allowed access to the old interface with a cookie. But you scum couldn't do that. I don't want an account, I just want my old interface back: " [14:38:01] <{cary|omnomnom}> scum [14:38:04] and hello to you ... :D [14:38:10] some people... [14:41:32] <{cary|scum}> Did I get kicked or sometihng? [14:41:41] anyway, super comments [14:43:23] "has left #wikipedia_usability ["Leaving"]" [14:43:45] so no, i think you just touched the wrong button [14:43:49] it's my netbook mousepad [14:44:04] it's always doing things when I get to close to it [14:44:30] Program team meeting in 40 minutes [15:00:16] *enhydra is willing to post a detailed feedback at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikipedia/2.0#Logo_revisions_need_input [15:03:31] oh my, POTY is started [15:04:09] seems like adapting my previously written script fot this vote has more priority [15:05:40] go for it [15:20:04] papyromancer: Your test wiki is at: http://prototype.wikimedia.org/test.1 [15:20:35] papyromancer: it lives on the server at: /srv/org/wikimedia/prototype/wikis/test-1 [15:22:28] Ryan_Lane: Thank, man [15:22:35] np [16:43:22] who owns PS3 at home? [16:49:35] for the sake of cross-browser and cross-platform testing, we should probably have one in the office :) [17:14:04] is there a link in bugzilla that shows all of the usability bugs? [17:17:42] you can make a custom search [17:17:47] i'm coming over... [17:18:48] TrevorParscal, when are we uploading the new logo [17:21:40] next week it sounded like [17:21:46] we wanted to "collect feedback" [17:21:54] I'm personally cool with doing it now [17:22:11] but I think Jay wanted to at least wait until monday [17:22:24] at which time, he'll likely make the call [17:24:29] if Jay says Monday, it's Monday [17:24:56] right - he can make the call, I'm fine with it as it is so the files I sent you should be good to go [17:25:22] if there's revisions to be made, I will be in the office on thursday morning for a half-day to sync up on this and some other stuff [17:25:32] so I can do that then if we get to that point [17:26:41] I suspect though that there will be only tiny tiny modifications at this point, so we could release monday and make tiny modifications thursday without any fuss [17:26:55] it's jay's call though [17:26:56] :) [17:27:28] Yes, methinks they doth protest too much on the commons page [17:28:39] ha ha [17:28:42] hi tomaszf [17:28:47] we miss you [17:42:57] TrevorParscal: did you see the stats of null ? [17:43:17] http://stats.grok.se/en/201005/Null [17:43:55] just a tad funny :D