[00:01:04] thedj: ping back! [00:06:12] nkomura: nevermind, it was already fixed. [00:06:21] ps, http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Vector_skin [00:06:58] wow, i didn't know such page existed [00:07:12] i just built it :D [00:07:59] i uploaded a few shots of the editor, because some editors needed some shots to fix some outdated documentation. [00:08:50] nice work, thedj [00:16:34] there, now welcome templates on Wikipedia refer to the correct button again :D [00:16:59] they were still pointing new editors at the old signature button :D [00:24:42] i'm happy to learn that documentation is being updated by the community [00:25:20] someone demanded that you guys updated it. [00:25:25] at which point i said [00:26:19] "a few years back, we were such enthousiastic editors that we actually created the software and then the documentation ourselves. Now we can't be bothered making a few updates after other people invested a lot of time in writing software ? " [00:27:20] :-) [15:39:24] [[File:Wikipedia-logo.png]] Trevor's last version has a mistake in the Arabic letter. [15:39:35] *cary grumbles at poorly planned vacations. [15:44:19] :/ [15:44:27] he is probably in disneyland now [15:45:12] Yeah, he should be [15:45:18] Left yesterday [15:52:22] *guillom is planning his vacations too [15:52:37] guillom, right after the Commons update, no doubt. [15:52:52] cary: actually, no. Right before our UX study [15:53:06] before is good. [15:53:25] but I duly note that you want me to take vacations right after the Commons update [15:53:39] I know how much you like fire fighting [15:57:31] guillom: Isn't the UX study around June 16/17? [15:58:03] RoanKattouw: dry run on June 14th, in-person on 18th (maybe 17th instead), remote on the 22nd [15:58:18] Right [15:58:24] So that means your vacation is like next week? [15:58:44] [[Commons:Talk:Wikipedia/2.0#Globe_logo_transparency]] [15:59:19] RoanKattouw: the week after that (7th) [16:05:07] hi, is there already a date when vector will be deployed in de.wp? [16:06:21] Between June 7 and 14 afaik [16:07:34] thx [16:16:51] guillom: Hi, I saw your edit on the Wikimania wiki. (http://wikimania2010.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Submissions/The_future_of_Wikimedia_User_experience&diff=8978&oldid=8744) Is Naoko not coming? [16:17:04] lecartia: no, she's not [16:17:40] *RoanKattouw points lecartia to wikimedia-announce-l [16:17:53] lecartia: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaannounce-l/2010-May/000016.html [16:18:42] Oh, what a shame. [16:18:59] Thanks for pointing me to the list. I never read those, maybe I should start doing so … [16:19:15] lecartia: that specific list is low-traffic and contains important announcements [16:19:47] guillom: Okay, you convinced me. :) [16:21:45] nkomura: Oh, I was just talking about you. I am sad to here that you are leaving WMF. Thanks for all your work! [16:21:55] here > hear [16:23:09] lecartia: thank you... i still would like to have a conversation with to make the accessibility compatibility next step forward [16:23:18] i was talking to erik about it yesterday [16:23:28] sorry that i haven't been able to schedule our call [16:23:43] the default deployment has been keeping me and the team very busy [16:24:00] Yes, I understand that. [16:24:49] nkomura: Will Erik be attending Wikimania? Probably, won’t he? [16:24:54] how about we schedule a call in the week of June 7? [16:25:03] nkomura: Let me check … [16:26:25] nkomura: Tuesday (but not between 8 and 9 pm my time), Wednesday or Thursday will be fine with me. [16:27:14] nkomura: Per the foundation-l thread I just read: when do you want to make SimpleSearch and CollapsibleNav part of the beta? [16:27:38] RoanKattouw: i was about to email you about that [16:27:51] OK then [16:27:53] now that SimpleSearch is somewhat stable [16:28:05] I just e-mailed you the stats you asked for [16:28:14] let's make simplesearch and the collapsible left nav part of beta [16:28:22] OK good [16:28:35] lecartia: thursday sounds good, let me check the time [16:28:40] I will do that later today; I have to go out in 5 mins or so and eat dinner when I get back [16:29:03] RoanKattouw: sounds good [16:29:53] nkomura: Also, did someone respond on [[WP:VP/T]] about yesterday's weird behavior? [16:29:55] lecartia: how about 7pm CEST on Thursday June 10? [16:30:05] RoanKattouw: I did [16:30:31] Ok good [16:32:39] nkomura: That sounds good. That gives us up to 1 hour before I have to head for the next telephone conference. [16:33:13] Small caps in Turkish (and Azerbaijani) is a mess [16:33:31] You have to use dotless i to get a small cap /with/ a dot. [16:34:03] lecartia: let's schedule it for 7-7:45pm CEST then [16:34:18] cary: it sounds complicated, i'm glad you are on it ;) [16:35:48] nkomura: Done. I will send you an email with by number. [16:36:48] lecartia: i was doing the same, just setting up a google calendar. [16:37:12] lecartia: if you can send me the number, that's great [16:37:17] i'll dial in the number [16:39:25] nkomura: Sent. [16:47:03] lecartia: got it [16:48:23] nkomura: Thanks. I wish you a successful day, I leave off work now. [16:48:43] lecartia: thank you, have a nice evening [17:26:01] Hello, everyone! [17:26:42] I have some questions about jQuery... [17:27:37] I heard that MW 1.16 will include jQuery 1.3.2 instead of the latest version (1.4.2) because of compatibility issues with the usability code - is that true? [17:52:52] mdale - hello! [17:53:03] You might be the person to ask about jQuery stuff... [17:53:04] Yaron hello [17:53:16] sure [17:53:22] Here's my question from before - I heard that MW 1.16 will include jQuery 1.3.2 instead of the latest version (1.4.2) because of compatibility issues with the usability code - is that true? [17:54:31] hmm trunk says 1.4.2 [17:54:44] Oh... I guess I heard wrong! [17:55:30] My other question: is there any chance that MediaWiki will include jQuery UI as well? [17:56:29] you can include js2 extension which helps manage script dependencies and grouping ;) [17:56:36] (include jquery ui ) [17:57:21] Okay... the issue is that we want to use both jQuery and jQuery UI in Semantic MediaWiki, and we don't want to require people to install another extension to use them, if possible. [17:57:50] ... I think we need better extension dependency management... [17:58:03] So in theory, SMW could include jQuery UI itself - the issue is needing to keep compatibility with the MW jQuery. [17:58:09] That is true... [17:58:27] as you know Usability includes jQuery UI... without a system like js2 its complicated to manage multiple extensions using the same js. [17:59:07] So both Usability and js2 include jQuery UI? [17:59:16] ...or does Usability require js2? [17:59:28] as you start rolling out interface components in jquery ui.. you will need to localize the msgs, js2 also helps out a lot here with things like {{PLURAL}} and [$1 link text] substitution... [18:00:23] What's the connection between jQuery and internationalization? [18:00:43] yea.. Usability and js2 include jQuery UI, but they know about each-other and work together. ... and work especially well together with the JS2 branch of Usability Extension http://prototype.wikimedia.org/s-9/ [18:00:58] in terms of jquery and internationalization [18:01:38] say you append an interface bit.. like $('
').text( 'my text here' ).dialog( { dialog options } ) .. or whatever [18:02:14] Oh, I think I get it. [18:02:35] But it's not that hard for PHP to take care of creating the messages, and just pass that in to the Javascript... [18:02:56] Any ETA on js2 getting into core? [18:02:58] Yaron: is about PLURAL, and link substitution [18:03:28] you need a basic wikitext parser in javascript (which js2 includes ) [18:03:49] mdale - oh, so, like, if people change the number of divs from one to many, via Ajax, the message would change to plural? [18:04:50] also you have to think about dynamic interfaces. YOu don't want to include all the messages for all the possible interface interactions on the intial page load... for example if you click on the insert image button on the usability toolbar. that is a good time to load all the add-media-wizard javascript, localized message text and css style sheets... all in a single scirptLoader request. [18:05:14] (scriptLoader also packages css ) [18:05:41] Um... [18:05:55] All of this is new to me. [18:06:32] Yaron: for plural consider a local search and replace on wiki text. You don't want to go to the server to figure out the transform for you have replaced 1 matche ... | you have replaced 2 matches [18:06:42] None of this is necessary per se, is it? I mean, SMW and its extensions already do a bunch of Javascript stuff without all of this dynamic loading. [18:07:36] mdale - fine; I'm not that worried about pluralization - I can't think of a part of the SMW interface that uses Javascript and has plurals. [18:09:23] I'm reading now about js2... [18:09:27] true, I think SMW interfaces are tied to page layout stuff so it makes more sense that its tied to that page... but if you wanted to be able to invoke components in other contexts without pre-loading everything it could be useful. [18:09:42] most up-to-date documentation is in extensions/JS2Support/README [18:11:51] Yaron: MW trunk packages both jQ 1.3.2 and 1.4.2 and uses 1.4.2 by default (but there's a config var to switch to 1.3.2 or home-installed versions) [18:11:51] its about modular packages. For example if we want to be able to use the wikitoolbar in section editing you don't want to include the entire wiki-toolbar javascript , messages and css payload on every "view" page. The script-loader lets you do a single module request to get all the payload ( css, messages, javascript ) and edit the section inline. [18:11:54] okay, I can't do all of these logos [18:12:05] Otourly, are you helping again? :) [18:12:07] MW 1.16 doesn't do this simply because I hadn't implemented this feature at that time, and because 1.4.0 did indeed cause bugs in usability code [18:12:14] RoanKattouw: Usability now uses 1.4.2 correct ? [18:12:58] Yes [18:14:21] mdale - so, just to clarify: JS2 is, and will always be, a separate extension? Or will it go into MW core at some point? [18:14:46] There are plans for to transition to core [18:15:21] We should have more clarity on the road map soon [18:15:46] mdale: so js2 is an extension and not a branch? [18:16:00] JeroenDeDauw: yea its an extension that works on trunk [18:16:25] mdale: But that's only like that since recently no? [18:17:00] JeroenDeDauw: yea relatively recently. [18:17:23] To bad it was not in time for Storyboard :( [18:18:26] Okay, so... if people just use the current version of MW 1.16, and don't install JS2 - will jQuery be loaded by default on both regular pages, and special pages? [18:18:34] JeroenDeDauw: how did address the messages in javascript limitations? [18:18:50] Yaron: No, jQuery will not be loaded by default, but there's OutputPage::includeJQuery() [18:19:25] RoanKattouw - ah, that's great news! [18:19:58] mdale: I used the same code as LQT for getting the messages into JS, and wrote 2 little JS function, 1 for just getting a message, and one for getting a message with vars. [18:19:58] Did not have plural support. [18:20:16] I really think the best solution, for now, is for SMW to just include its own version of jQuery and jQuery UI, and completely ignore MW's version. [18:20:19] mdale: I guess that should be replaces by the js2 stuff. [18:20:32] mdale: But can maybe best wait with that untill js2 is in core. [18:20:48] sounds reasonable [18:21:01] Yaron: Yeah - else it won't work for 1.15 and earlier. [18:21:16] mdale - great, I'm glad you said that; I'll relay it back to the SMW people. [18:21:29] JeroenDeDauw - yes, that's true as well. [18:21:31] Yaron: Be aware of double jQuery inclusion issues though [18:21:51] RoanKattouw: Any recommended way of dealing with that? [18:22:03] Right, that was going to be my question too. [18:22:23] if(method_exists('OutputPage', 'includeJQuery')) maybe [18:22:32] (or whatever the right syntax is) [18:24:29] That just determines whether jQuery *can* be included, not whether it *has* been included, no? [18:24:50] Yes [18:24:50] mJQueryDone [18:24:56] That var is private [18:25:00] What I'm saying is [18:25:01] yea :( [18:25:17] If that method exists, call it. It's smart enough not to double-include stuff itself [18:25:31] If that method doesn't exist, do your own jQuery stuff [18:25:40] I see, yes... [18:25:43] right cuz even if you checked mJQueryDone "now".. later on some other extension could include it anyway [18:25:50] Yes [18:25:57] So you would need to set it to true as well [18:26:13] It so happens that there is a function that does all of that: includeJQuery() :D [18:26:23] But I'm worried about future compatibility with jQuery UI, if SMW always uses its own version of that one. [18:27:46] We will probably set up the script loader so this can be handled in a sane way [18:27:53] And if all else fails, there's always version_compare() [18:28:12] Right, okay. [18:29:00] RoanKattouw: Script loader will only work on wiki's that have it. The SMW solution should be compatible at the verly least with everything starting from 1.15. [18:29:34] Yes, that's why I suggested version_compare() or other, saner, mechanisms to fall back to pre-script loader compat behavior [18:31:12] That makes sense. [18:31:57] RoanKattouw: I don't see how version_compare() will let you avoid including jQuery.ui twice ... Aside from a script-loader its not easy to ensure multiple copies of things don't get included. [18:35:09] Once the script loader is there SMW can simply include a copy of it, and use that one, when it's not found nativly. [18:37:50] mdale and RoanKattouw - it wouldn't be possible for MW 1.16 to also include jQuery UI, would it? From what I understand, it's almost a standard part of jQuery... [18:38:18] I guess it could [18:39:07] the entire package is kind of large [18:39:28] you really want to be able to set which pieces you want [18:39:40] ( ie script-loader ) [18:40:19] Really? I thought jQuery UI was just this one not-very-big file: http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/libs/jqueryui/1.8.1/jquery-ui.min.js [18:40:53] 48K gziped and minified. [18:41:11] Yeah, okay. [18:41:23] and closure compressed [18:41:32] it looks like [18:42:41] 195k for people that don't have gzip on it looks like [18:44:01] Well, could JQuery UI be added to MediaWiki, then just be considered the less-ideal version, for those who don't have the script loader installed? [18:44:24] ...sort of a halfway, better-than-nothing solution? [18:45:20] Yaron: hmm I think usability uses a custom subset of jquery UI .. so you would be including all of that twice with a monolithic package in ~some~ version of core .. or they would have to do checks as well... [18:45:59] if its a monolithic separate js package it can't be easily combined and results in another request. [18:46:54] we "need" a script-loader. [18:47:13] Alright, that makes sense. [18:47:28] you can't count on usability to include the subset of jquery ui that you need for your extension [18:49:24] Cary well not for now :s [18:50:28] mdale - okay, I'm looking now on jqueryui.com - I see now that you can basically customize your own version of jQuery UI, with the features you need. [18:53:58] Yaron: correct, extensions just say what components they need and then the script-loader combines that with all the components any of the other extensions needed for a single package. [18:54:11] That's pretty cool. [18:55:11] then if another interface comes along in "browser run time" like "in-line section" editing it only requests what it needs based on the javascript state in the browser. [18:55:59] since all the components are tied to defining a named class in javascript [18:57:18] this way you never get errors with re-defining variables and a complex set of cross dependencies can be managed cleanly. [18:57:57] Yeah, it sounds awesome... unfortunately, we just can't rely on it for, I'm guessing, another six months to a year. [18:58:21] Yaron: right but even after that you will need a fall back .. which js2support extension can provide ;) [19:00:05] Oh - but can't SMW say, "if the JS2/script loader is installed, use it; otherwise, I'll use all my own files"? [19:00:30] Yaron: yes [19:01:17] that way extension can have a script-loader mode that avoids javascript conflicts with other extensions [19:02:12] Yeah, that sounds good... hopefully it'll all work out... [19:05:35] Yaron: let me know if you have any questions, happy to help out [19:06:22] Okay, thanks a lot. Sanyam (my GSoC student) and I will try it out, and will let you know if anything goes wrong. [21:55:05] flipzagging: are you interested in reports of funny behavior of the upload wizard in Konqueror, or you know it's not supposed to work yet so you'll address it later? [21:58:53] Useful tip of the day: If you can't tell what color a font is, try turning off ClearType [21:58:59] guillom: I'm not sure I'll ever be interested in bug reports for Konqueror. ;) [21:59:15] guillom: but we should record it somehow, you can add it to bugzilla or something else. [21:59:37] flipzagging: ok, I made a screenshot and I'll attach it to a bug, you can take a look when you want [22:00:30] now I can tell those purple links apart from the blue links in modern [22:02:36] why does commons have underscores on links? [22:15:50] flipzagging: are you currently using a standard JS library for the language drop-down? [22:16:25] are you asking if others can reuse that drop-down? [22:17:04] no, I'm asking if it's a standard thing you found elsewhere, and if so what it's name is, so that I can find its web page :) [22:17:07] or documentation [22:17:11] its* [22:17:21] no documentation, not standard. [22:17:26] okay [22:17:48] I started to make a little widget for use within MediaWiki, but others reverted it [22:17:59] I think we'll have to show more research or thought first [22:18:23] the list of languages is derived from the existing commons form, however, I sorted it differently. [22:18:36] ok, that's basically what I needed to know [22:18:37] thanks [22:19:53] the list of languages isn't ISO 639 either, btw [22:20:12] it's ISO 639 with extra Wikimedia sprinkles [22:35:32] Can we switch meta to Vector? [22:40:59] guillom: about the own work deed, what would you think of changing the interface from "more options" to a toggle, which would say "Choose custom license" instead? [22:41:19] guillom: And then when it showed you all the licenses, there's a link to "Choose recommended license" in about the same place. [22:42:13] flipzagging: sounds good. I haven't thought in details about that, but it's on my list. If you have suggestions, feel free to do the change you think appropriate, if they're easy to do. [22:42:20] ok, we can always revert