[12:07:47] <Marco27>	Hello, everybody
[12:09:42] <Marco27>	Why hasn't CentralNotice shown yet?
[12:11:56] <RoanKattouw>	I don't know
[12:12:02] <RoanKattouw>	Kibble mumbled something about it yesterday
[12:12:15] <RoanKattouw>	Probably best to ask Cary when he gets in
[12:14:43] <Marco27>	Ok, thanks. And do you know when he'll get in?
[12:23:26] <RoanKattouw>	Around 8:30-9:00 PDT probably
[12:23:32] <RoanKattouw>	It's 5:24 PDT now
[12:25:14] <Marco27>	Ok, thanks a lot!
[12:32:38] <GerardM->	RoanKattouw does Alternative one make sense to you .... http://omegawiki.blogspot.com/2010/06/wikipedia-interlanguage-links.html
[12:33:59] <RoanKattouw>	I don't fully understand what it means
[12:34:04] *thedj 	neither.
[12:34:06] <RoanKattouw>	Are you saying we should add "interwiki redlinks"?
[12:34:20] <RoanKattouw>	(They wouldn't actually show up red, but you know what I mean)
[12:37:59] <GerardM->	Not really ... have a page without even a stub that only includes interlanguage links
[12:38:21] <GerardM->	this to give information even though there is no article even a stub
[12:39:12] <GerardM->	the idea is that even though there is no article, we have information in other languages
[12:39:13] <RoanKattouw>	Rigth
[12:39:46] <RoanKattouw>	So is this for cases where translations don't map 1:1 ?
[12:39:58] <RoanKattouw>	(e.g. nl:bank -> en:bank and nl:bank -> en:couch)
[12:40:30] <GerardM->	this is for cases where cases do map 1:1 nl:bank (economie)
[12:40:58] <GerardM->	they are ordinary interlanguage links
[12:41:28] <GerardM->	they only show differently
[12:41:51] <RoanKattouw>	So what are you suggesting then? That if .nl doesn't have an article on [[Bank (economie)]] they put a dummy page their that points them to economy-related articles?
[12:42:21] <GerardM->	that points to articles on that subject in other languages
[12:44:08] <GerardM->	the point is to provide information to people who do know other languagesw
[17:22:54] <Marco27>	Hello cary-wfh
[17:22:59] <cary-wfh>	hello
[17:31:54] <TrevorParscal>	RoanKattouw: hi
[17:32:26] <RoanKattouw>	Hey there
[17:32:45] <RoanKattouw>	So, I did something very out of the ordinary yesterday: I posted on foundation-l
[17:33:03] <RoanKattouw>	I said I would set the language links to be expanded by default unless someone stopped me
[17:33:31] <RoanKattouw>	So this is the part where I'm looking for someone to stop me or tell me to go ahead
[17:33:36] <jorm>	did you?
[17:33:39] <jorm>	oh.
[17:36:38] <cary-wfh>	yay RoanKattouw
[17:37:03] <cary-wfh>	RoanKattouw, my personal opinion is that they should be expanded by default.
[17:37:11] <RoanKattouw>	Mine too
[17:37:15] <jorm>	Mine as well.
[17:37:24] <cary-wfh>	I'm not sure where we came up with the conclusion that this way was better.
[17:37:30] <RoanKattouw>	I would've done this yesterday, but I wanted TPTB to have a chance to stop me
[17:37:46] <RoanKattouw>	So this is their chance :)
[17:37:56] <cary-wfh>	Trevor Parscal The Boss?
[17:38:04] <RoanKattouw>	haha
[17:38:22] <RoanKattouw>	Well any combination of TrevorParscal, Howie, nkomura and Erik really
[17:38:59] <TrevorParscal>	yeah, maybe we should be more careful about making promises like that
[17:39:44] <TrevorParscal>	and also, i'm not sure you should be taking action unless someone stops you, more like, you should ask howie what would be the best way to deal with a certain issue (if it's a product issue) or me if it's a technical one
[17:40:01] <TrevorParscal>	I actually need your help
[17:40:46] <TrevorParscal>	what we are going to do is release an updated version that shows the first 5 (with no clever steering of which to show at this point, just the first 5 as they would normally appear) and the rest will exist in a "More languages" portal
[17:41:10] <TrevorParscal>	we will release it so some people get that
[17:41:19] <TrevorParscal>	and others get the language portal expanded by default
[17:41:22] <RoanKattouw>	OK
[17:41:27] <TrevorParscal>	then click track them against eaach other
[17:41:50] <RoanKattouw>	Since I was proposing to re-enable this thing "in anticipation of a better solution", I guess we can forego that and skip ahead to said better solution
[17:41:59] <TrevorParscal>	then we will have data between the old way (show everything) and our more ideal way (show some, but not all)
[17:42:13] <TrevorParscal>	yes, please :)
[17:43:53] <RoanKattouw>	OK
[17:43:54] <TrevorParscal>	also
[17:43:58] <RoanKattouw>	So who's gonna implement this thing?
[17:44:05] <TrevorParscal>	I've already done it
[17:44:34] <cary-wfh>	TrevorParscal, I'm going to say it here and now, I think hiding the langauges has been a bad idea.  I didn't say anything before, because I needed my opinion to be validated.
[17:44:47] <cary-wfh>	and you guys haven't asked me about it.
[17:44:49] <TrevorParscal>	will check it in in a sec - but we need a way to make it so a certain percentage of the people who load the new script get the new version, and the rest just get the all expanded
[17:45:19] <cary-wfh>	I've never understood how we came to the conclusion that hiding it was better.
[17:45:23] <RoanKattouw>	So you want to bucket test this?
[17:45:32] <TrevorParscal>	cary-wfh: showing 200+ links in the sidebar is a really big problem, we are trying to solve it the best we can
[17:45:36] <TrevorParscal>	RoanKattouw: yes
[17:45:43] <TrevorParscal>	and we need it to be sticky, with a cookie
[17:45:55] <RoanKattouw>	Yes
[17:46:00] <TrevorParscal>	and we need to click track it
[17:46:06] <TrevorParscal>	so, I was hoping you could help with that
[17:46:09] <RoanKattouw>	So it needs to decide whether you're bucket A or bucket B at first view
[17:46:13] <RoanKattouw>	OK so
[17:46:25] <RoanKattouw>	Does JS have a random number generator? :)
[17:46:35] <Platonides>	Math.random()
[17:46:38] <RoanKattouw>	Cool
[17:46:58] <RoanKattouw>	So based on that, decide to put the user in a bucket (A or B), then set a cookie
[17:47:06] <RoanKattouw>	Then read out that cookie in the CollNav code
[17:47:25] <RoanKattouw>	Take care about getting the order of execution right for the first view and you should be set
[17:47:45] *RoanKattouw 	grabs cookie setting code
[17:48:06] <RoanKattouw>	$j.cookie( 'key', 'value', { path: '/', expires: 30 } );
[17:48:45] <Platonides>	make sure to clicktrack differently clicks for the first five, 'show all languages', other languages, plus taking into account if the page they clicked from had more than 5 interwikis
[17:49:49] <TrevorParscal>	yeah, we need to track how many links there were total, and which version they had
[17:50:02] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: Note that ClickTracking is currently disabled on WMF wikis, Tim disabled it for security reasons but doesn't seem to have looked at my fix yet
[17:51:04] <TrevorParscal>	ok
[17:51:08] <TrevorParscal>	so we will need to deal with that
[17:51:12] <RoanKattouw>	Yes
[17:51:23] <TrevorParscal>	nimish is going to look at adding an extra data field to click tracking
[17:51:31] <TrevorParscal>	so we can store state information
[17:51:32] <RoanKattouw>	OK
[17:51:41] <RoanKattouw>	You could just jam it into the ID
[17:51:42] <TrevorParscal>	like how many interwiki links existed on the page
[17:51:46] <RoanKattouw>	Right
[17:52:01] <TrevorParscal>	interwiki-en-[VERSION]-[NUMBER OF LINKS]
[17:52:05] <RoanKattouw>	Well we could just jam all this info into the ID and sort it out late
[17:52:07] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah
[17:52:15] <TrevorParscal>	might be a pita to decode, but it's doable
[17:52:17] <Marco27>	cary-wfh: There must be a problem with Vector-rollout CentralNotice (it had to be enabled yesterday) :-)
[17:52:23] <RoanKattouw>	You need something more complex than that
[17:52:28] <cary-wfh>	Marco27, I don't know
[17:52:46] <cary-wfh>	Maybe kibble can identify something when he gets online
[17:52:50] <RoanKattouw>	interwiki-[version]-[langClicked]-[isAmongFirstFive]-[numLinks]
[17:53:04] <TrevorParscal>	right...
[17:53:05] <RoanKattouw>	Where [langClicked] is possibly equal to 'showAll'
[17:53:05] <Marco27>	cary-wfh: He told me to ask you :-)
[17:53:14] <TrevorParscal>	show all?
[17:53:20] <TrevorParscal>	the expander
[17:53:21] <TrevorParscal>	yes...
[17:53:22] <RoanKattouw>	Yes
[17:53:26] <cary-wfh>	I don't know
[17:53:33] <RoanKattouw>	Fortunately showAll is not a language code
[17:53:43] <RoanKattouw>	Kibble asked me yesterday and I referred him to cary-wfh
[17:53:52] <TrevorParscal>	and, to make things even more fun, we could add an API call that does this -> http://www.thefutureoftheweb.com/blog/use-accept-language-header
[17:53:56] <TrevorParscal>	and store that in a cookie
[17:54:06] <TrevorParscal>	and use that to steer the links
[17:54:11] <RoanKattouw>	Yes
[17:54:12] <TrevorParscal>	in the top 5
[17:54:14] <Marco27>	Oook, thanks anyway
[17:54:34] <TrevorParscal>	so we have allot of work to do...
[17:54:44] *TrevorParscal 	gets some caffine
[17:55:31] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: Want an API module for that?
[17:55:40] <TrevorParscal>	yes
[17:55:56] <TrevorParscal>	if that were hit once per person, then stored for as long as possible in a cookie
[17:56:05] <TrevorParscal>	what kind of performance impact would that have?
[17:57:08] <RoanKattouw>	Not sure
[17:57:25] <RoanKattouw>	If we bucket test it at a relatively small ratio it should be fine initially at least
[17:58:27] <RoanKattouw>	Hmm
[17:58:39] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: $j('#foo').after('stuff').addClass('persistent') --> what does this add the class to?
[17:59:28] <TrevorParscal>	#foo
[17:59:38] <TrevorParscal>	sorry if that's cryptic
[17:59:39] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah thought so
[17:59:41] <RoanKattouw>	No worries
[17:59:48] <RoanKattouw>	I'm just getting back into code review :D
[17:59:51] <nimish_g>	I'm working on this: $.trackActionWithInfo ( id, info )
[17:59:55] <TrevorParscal>	chaining is sometimes less obvious
[17:59:57] <RoanKattouw>	Any jQuery chaining isn't always consistent
[18:00:09] <RoanKattouw>	nimish_g: We were saying we may be able to just cram everything into the ID
[18:00:16] <TrevorParscal>	well
[18:00:20] <TrevorParscal>	that's not a good idea though
[18:00:28] <TrevorParscal>	because the system is designed as a tag system
[18:00:35] <TrevorParscal>	where keys are added to a key table
[18:00:37] <TrevorParscal>	then looked up
[18:00:41] <nimish_g>	yeah we're trying to minimize having tons of IDs
[18:00:51] <TrevorParscal>	if you have thousands of keys, it will slow it down
[18:00:54] <TrevorParscal>	millions, even worse
[18:00:54] <nimish_g>	actually I made it so that it would work best if those are minimal
[18:00:55] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah it'd be a bit awkward to process the data
[18:01:18] <TrevorParscal>	i think adding a data field that's optional will be the best in the long run
[18:01:23] <TrevorParscal>	maybe even in the short run
[18:01:40] <TrevorParscal>	cleaning up the mess we leave by overloading the keys might be tough
[18:02:08] <RoanKattouw>	Right
[18:02:14] <TrevorParscal>	http://eiximenis.wikimedia.org/CollapsibleNav
[18:02:15] <RoanKattouw>	So yeah let's do the info field
[18:03:20] <cary-wfh>	I didn't know we could customize the names of those
[18:03:31] <RoanKattouw>	cary-wfh: You can, by just going to the URL
[18:04:04] *RoanKattouw 	wonders if JS has an array_flip()-like function to make wikipediaProjectSizes less ugly
[18:05:15] <RoanKattouw>	Oh it's commented out
[18:05:20] <thedj>	has anyone considered removing the languages from the sidebar ?
[18:05:32] <thedj>	and moving it below categories or something like this.
[18:06:07] <thedj>	really the idea of the languages in the navigation bar is somewhat of a weird convention that is a monobook relic.
[18:07:06] <thedj>	i'm not saying people will like it better, or that it is a good idea, just wonder if it had been considered.
[18:08:24] <RoanKattouw>	thedj: If people honestly believe the langlinks are gone when they were just collapsed, how are they gonna find them when they move to the bottom?
[18:08:40] <RoanKattouw>	Also, how are you gonna get to the translation of a long article quickly? Not everybody knows about the End key
[18:09:25] <^demon>	You'd be surprised how many mac users don't know the shortcuts either.
[18:09:29] <thedj>	just sayin' they are this weird crossover between navigational and content elements.
[18:10:25] <TrevorParscal>	RoanKattouw: I'm going to optimize that
[18:10:32] <TrevorParscal>	working on it now
[18:10:40] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: OK. More CR comments on the way
[18:20:05] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: BTW is there a way to collapse that thing back?
[18:20:24] <TrevorParscal>	collapse what back?
[18:20:36] <RoanKattouw>	The languages
[18:20:37] <TrevorParscal>	to go to the old way, we can just if out some code
[18:20:45] <RoanKattouw>	No what I mean is
[18:21:09] <RoanKattouw>	When I click the [n more] link and the language list expands, and I'm stuck with a cookie that keeps it like that forever, can I collapse the list back?
[18:24:34] <adam_miller>	TrevorParscal: can I impliment something for this, or are we trying to avoid this functionality? https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23521
[18:26:09] <RoanKattouw>	adam_miller: You shouldn't need to implement anything. The code is still there, you just need to turn it back on. In fact, I believe you were the one to turn it off
[18:26:34] <adam_miller>	yeah i feel like we decided not to have it way back when
[18:26:39] <adam_miller>	i dont recall why thoguh
[18:54:13] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: We have an Accept-Language echoer now, as of http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Code/MediaWiki/67554
[18:54:48] <TrevorParscal>	awesome
[18:55:10] <RoanKattouw>	Call api.php?action=query&meta=userinfo&uiprop=acceptlang&format=json , output is something like { "query": { "userinfo": { "acceptlang": [ { "q": 1, "*": "en-us" }, { ... }, ... ] } } }
[18:55:38] <TrevorParscal>	in a minute
[18:55:42] <TrevorParscal>	I will commit some code
[18:55:43] <RoanKattouw>	Reverse-sorted by q value, q value is a decimal number between 0 and 1
[18:55:47] <TrevorParscal>	that you can add that call to
[18:55:53] <RoanKattouw>	OK cool
[18:56:25] <RoanKattouw>	(BTW, per the blog you linked, q=0 means "don't give me this language ever, even Swahili is better")
[18:56:40] <cary-wfh>	TrevorParscal:
[18:56:40] <cary-wfh>	http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File_talk:Wikipedia-logo-v2-en.png
[19:01:57] <RoanKattouw>	nimish_g: What, there's an election tomorrow? Gov/Sen primaries finally?
[19:03:22] <nimish_g>	RoanKattouw: just primaries. but since almost no one votes in the primaries, they try to sneak in really dumb ballot initiatives in
[19:04:26] <kibble>	:o
[19:04:27] <cary-wfh>	and then spend lots of money trying to convince the dumber portion of the state that their ballot initiatives aren't shallow attempts at institutionalizing monopoly.
[19:04:45] <RoanKattouw>	Oh you can add ballot initiatives to primaries as well as general elections?
[19:04:47] <RoanKattouw>	That's evil
[19:05:17] <cary-wfh>	fake tweet feed: http://twitter.com/PGEcares
[19:05:43] <RoanKattouw>	haha
[19:05:45] <RoanKattouw>	What's Prop 16?
[19:07:40] <RoanKattouw>	From what I read on Wikipedia it seems to be that a local electricity provider needs 2/3 voter approval before being allowed to sell electricity, is that right?
[19:08:20] <cary-wfh>	Yes, and guess who is paying for the campaign?
[19:10:02] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah, PG&E, picked up on that
[19:10:13] <nkomura>	howief: what is the current targeted deployment time and date of Vector switch for the next nine languages?
[19:10:15] <RoanKattouw>	These are the people that shut down power to increase its price, right?
[19:10:27] <TrevorParscal>	RoanKattouw: did you already write some bucket code?
[19:10:28] <RoanKattouw>	nkomura: This Wednesday night, 10:30pm
[19:10:33] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: No
[19:10:40] <cary-wfh>	any decision on who is putting the sitenotices up?
[19:10:45] <RoanKattouw>	You said you were at the brink of committing something. I'm waiting patiently
[19:10:47] <jorm>	california politics is so horribly broken.
[19:10:50] <RoanKattouw>	And reading up on ballot initiatives in the meantime
[19:11:02] <RoanKattouw>	Prop 14 sounds interesting
[19:11:13] <cary-wfh>	"top two"
[19:11:14] <cary-wfh>	another no.
[19:11:18] <kibble>	cary-wfh, I can do it right now.
[19:11:31] <cary-wfh>	kibble, I think it's time we do it then :)
[19:11:33] <TrevorParscal>	cary-wfh: they are asking for an 8bit image, like the one I accidentally gave you before
[19:11:40] <kibble>	We need to have 9 separate "notices"...
[19:11:47] <RoanKattouw>	So what's the "Fair Elections Act" (Prop 15) about?
[19:12:05] <cary-wfh>	That one is about public funding for Secretary of STate
[19:12:07] <cary-wfh>	the only one I voted for
[19:12:22] *cary-wfh 	waves nkomura 
[19:12:29] <RoanKattouw>	Ah, early voting
[19:12:37] *nkomura 	waves back to cary-wfh
[19:13:00] <nkomura>	RoanKattouw: is mark aware of the time as well?
[19:13:15] <RoanKattouw>	Hah, there's an anti-gerrymandering prop up in November
[19:13:20] <RoanKattouw>	nkomura: I'm not completely sure
[19:13:21] <Jamesofur>	why specifically Sec of State? is that the only state wide one that doesn't have public funding?
[19:13:57] <cary-wfh>	Jamesofur, no, it's the first one they're trying for.
[19:14:26] <Jamesofur>	ahh interesting, so kinda a see how it goes with this one instead of asking people to fund all of the races from the get go? interesting
[19:14:55] *Jamesofur 	needs to use better words the just interesting
[19:15:04] *RoanKattouw 	wonders about the details of Prop 13
[19:15:28] <RoanKattouw>	"Limits on property tax assessment" sounds like it costs money, as would "Seismic retrofitting of existing buildings"
[19:15:52] <jorm>	prop 13 is the root of all evil in california.
[19:16:30] <RoanKattouw>	If I just had the description, I would've probably voted no to be safe
[19:16:31] <Jamesofur>	I guess the idea is that people are NOT retrofitting because it would mean that they would have to pay more taxes........ but the honest fact is that if you retrofit it does indeed raise the value of your property
[19:16:45] <RoanKattouw>	Right
[19:16:51] <Jamesofur>	http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/California_Proposition_13,_Seismic_Retrofitting_(June_2010)
[19:16:59] <Jamesofur>	kinda interesting... I get the idea but.....
[19:18:01] <adam_miller>	TrevorParscal: do you recall why we disabled the updateTextbox option when highlighting a result in simplesearch?
[19:18:32] <TrevorParscal>	no
[19:18:34] <TrevorParscal>	hmm
[19:19:27] <adam_miller>	was it because of the containing option being changed as well?
[19:19:37] <RoanKattouw>	A 1% tax on owning real estate is pretty high though, we tax only 0.1% for that
[19:20:27] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: <RoanKattouw>	You said you were at the brink of committing something. I'm waiting patiently --> how close are you? How much am I gonna learn about tomorrow's ballot initiatives? :D
[19:20:41] <TrevorParscal>	i am
[19:20:46] <TrevorParscal>	30 seconds
[19:21:13] <RoanKattouw>	No rush, just thought you might've missed that line
[19:21:40] <TrevorParscal>	i'm having trouble with the cookie sticking
[19:22:06] *kibble 	goes to make a snack while the CentralNotice admin pages load...
[19:24:33] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: What code do you use to add the cookie?
[19:25:05] <TrevorParscal>	i think I was using 2 different keys
[19:25:07] <TrevorParscal>	spelling mistake
[19:25:19] <TrevorParscal>	set: $j.cookie( 'vector-nav-pref-version', version, { 'expires': 30, 'path': '/' } );
[19:25:20] <RoanKattouw>	Hmm, Prop 17 sounded good at first, but is probably bad. Price discrimination based on continuous coverage should be outlawed, and coverage should be made mandatory
[19:25:25] <TrevorParscal>	read: $j.cookie( 'vector-nav-pref-version' )
[19:25:41] <RoanKattouw>	I'm actually quite surprised car insurance coverage doesn't seem to be mandatory in California
[19:25:54] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: Sounds good
[19:26:02] <TrevorParscal>	working now
[19:26:05] <RoanKattouw>	Cool
[19:26:18] <TrevorParscal>	RoanKattouw: it is, there's a state minimum
[19:27:38] <Jamesofur>	is it just small?
[19:27:50] <RoanKattouw>	OK so what's the use of encouraging continuous coverage?
[19:27:59] <RoanKattouw>	Other than screwing people who didn't own a car before
[19:40:17] <TrevorParscal>	RoanKattouw: ok, code in
[19:40:33] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah saw it, thanks
[19:40:45] <TrevorParscal>	we need the API call for the language accept to get added in
[19:41:01] <RoanKattouw>	Yes
[19:41:05] <RoanKattouw>	I'll poke at that
[19:41:54] <TrevorParscal>	notice the threshold thing - it's pretty sweet
[19:42:55] <Platonides>	I don't think it's worth as an api call
[19:43:09] <Platonides>	wouldn't that need to load a lot from mediawiki?
[19:43:25] <Platonides>	the accept-language bridge can be exposed independently
[19:43:43] <RoanKattouw>	We'll see how bad it is
[19:43:49] <RoanKattouw>	The idea is to cache this value in a cookie
[19:44:02] <Platonides>	why do you like so much cookie caching?
[19:44:12] *Platonides 	mumbles about localstorage
[19:44:42] <Platonides>	note that the accept-language output can be fully cached by the squids
[19:47:10] <RoanKattouw>	Only if they vary on Accept-Language
[19:47:15] <RoanKattouw>	Which is something we really don't want to do
[19:48:30] <Platonides>	with proper headers, of course ;)
[19:49:25] <kibble>	Okay, CentralNotices enabled, should be live soon.
[19:49:42] <TrevorParscal>	Platonides: cookies are more universal than localstorage these days, afaik
[19:50:11] <Platonides>	I know, using the advanced systems would need more if branching and fallbacks
[19:50:30] <Platonides>	it's strange jquery doesn't come with something like that, though
[19:52:31] *Manuelt15 	wonders what he need to do to use the old MediaWiki search in vector
[19:52:48] <RoanKattouw>	Manuelt15: What do you mean by "old search"?
[19:53:23] <Manuelt15>	the one who Monobook uses
[19:53:29] <RoanKattouw>	Right
[19:53:41] <RoanKattouw>	We should add a preference for that
[19:53:49] <RoanKattouw>	me wonders if a bug has been filed about that yet
[19:53:52] <RoanKattouw>	*/me
[19:54:04] <Marco27>	On it.wiki an user asked me the same
[19:54:24] <thedj>	didn't i file something on that. /me looks in his list of bugs
[19:55:55] <thedj>	oh no, that was about disabling suggestions completely.
[19:56:20] <thedj>	https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23520
[19:58:32] <thedj>	Marco27: ticket added as https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23823
[19:58:57] <thedj>	Manuelt15: ^^
[19:59:13] <Marco27>	thanks, thedj
[19:59:33] <kibble>	RoanKattouw, will [[Special:UsabilityInitiativePrefSwitch]] work on every wiki when the new interface is rolledout?
[19:59:41] <kibble>	(Right now, it only works on enwp, for example.)
[19:59:44] <RoanKattouw>	Yes
[19:59:53] <RoanKattouw>	You can view translations of it with the uselang trick
[20:00:02] <kibble>	Okay, just checking.
[20:00:28] <kibble>	(Well, I was wondering if for some strange reason, that page refused to follow the normal English redirects to Localized pagename scheme.)
[20:01:26] <RoanKattouw>	No, that should also work
[20:02:54] <kibble>	TrevorParscal, http://de.wikipedia.org/?uselang=de&action=purge
[20:02:59] <kibble>	Pipe's not showing up on dewp for some reason.
[20:03:51] <kibble>	Working on the other 8 wikis.
[20:05:21] <Platonides>	pipe?
[20:05:47] <kibble>	Sorry, it looks like a pipe to me. :-) http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:NoticeTemplate/view&template=VectorNewLook&wpUserLanguage=de
[20:05:56] <kibble>	Wikipedia bekommt ein neues Aussehen. | Mehr Informationen...
[20:06:30] <Manuelt15>	thedj: thanks!!
[20:06:39] <Platonides>	kibble, i see a dot
[20:07:01] <Platonides>	"
[20:07:01] <Platonides>	Wikipedia bekommt ein neues Aussehen.Mehr Informationen...
[20:07:27] <kibble>	I see the same, it's supposed to have a pipe though, like in the CentralNotice page I just linked you to.
[20:07:48] <Platonides>	that's not a pipe
[20:08:02] <thedj>	it's an image of a line :D
[20:08:03] <Platonides>	it's css styles
[20:08:42] <thedj>	broken html or link in the left cell of the message i think.
[20:08:52] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: So I can plug this in by just replacing your big-ass languages array, right?
[20:09:48] <kibble>	Platonides, I know, but it's easier to say what it looks like than what it actually is... considering that thing is filled with CSS styles.
[20:09:57] <kibble>	If you were going to type out what that looks like, what would you use?  You'd use a pipe.
[20:09:59] <RoanKattouw>	Blegh, once again, the code structure isn't helpful here. API = AJAX = async
[20:10:13] <Platonides>	"a find-and-replace feature to simplify page editing" where have you hidden it?
[20:10:46] <kibble>	Platonides, advanced toolbar => advanced => right side.
[20:11:11] <kibble>	It's an image of a magnifying glass and a pencil over a piece of notebook paper.
[20:11:14] <thedj>	kibble: perhaps this is a local css issue on de.wikipedia
[20:11:25] <Platonides>	kibble, I see picture gallery, Table, Redirect
[20:11:29] <kibble>	thedj, that's what I was thinking, because it's not messed up anywhere else.
[20:11:42] <thedj>	kibble: i'll check
[20:12:24] <kibble>	Platonides, do you have anything disabled in your preferences?
[20:13:21] <Platonides>	"Enable dialogs for inserting links, tables and more" is disabled
[20:13:37] <kibble>	That's probably the issue.
[20:13:43] <thedj>	kibble: got it.
[20:13:44] <Platonides>	no, it's not that
[20:13:55] <Platonides>	oh, it was
[20:14:01] <kibble>	;-)
[20:14:03] <kibble>	thedj, \o/
[20:14:05] <Platonides>	it shows completely at the right, though
[20:14:09] <kibble>	Indeed.
[20:14:15] <kibble>	thedj, what was the issue?
[20:14:19] <thedj>	kibble: now what to do about it.....
[20:14:26] <Platonides>	where you think you have already seen the whole toolbar and change line
[20:14:44] <thedj>	Bei URLs, die auf unser Projekt und verwandte Projekte verweisen, den Pfeil ausblenden
[20:16:18] <thedj>	i guess their sitenotice can have !important on the background and padding settings of their inline css...
[20:18:49] <Manuelt15>	soo... when are you going to change all interfaces to Vector? :)
[20:19:09] <Platonides>	they will change big wikis this week
[20:21:29] <Manuelt15>	k
[20:23:05] <thedj>	kibble: for de.wp try this instead: http://pastebin.com/DH5QSmJw
[20:23:48] <kibble>	thedj, you mean change the CentralNotice itself?
[20:23:56] <kibble>	Well, it's the same template for all wikis.
[20:24:00] <kibble>	Will this work the same on all the wikis?
[20:24:08] <thedj>	good point. well it shouldn't do any harm.
[20:24:30] <Kyro>	Hi
[20:24:34] <thedj>	kibble: it just makes a few css statements stronger.
[20:24:40] <kibble>	If it breaks, I blame you. ;-)
[20:24:48] <thedj>	rightly so....
[20:25:05] <thedj>	it should only add !important in a few places. not sure if there is diff on centralnotice interface.
[20:25:17] <kibble>	thedj, done: http://meta.wikimedia.org/?diff=prev&oldid=1998771
[20:26:39] <thedj>	kibble: looks safe to me.
[20:26:57] <kibble>	:D
[20:27:02] *kibble 	high-fives thedj.  Thanks for the help.
[20:27:22] <thedj>	yeah now to see if it actually works.
[20:36:01] <Platonides>	kibble, Special:NoticeTemplate/view&template=VectorNewLook should have type="text/css" in the <style> tag
[20:36:43] <kibble>	You're right, done.
[20:39:04] <Platonides>	why isn't vector showing navigation header in the sidebar?
[20:39:11] <Platonides>	and showing the next one expanded instead
[20:40:54] <kibble>	thedj, I don't think that fixed it.
[20:41:19] <kibble>	Platonides, I don't know what you're talking about.
[20:41:46] <Platonides>	look at the sidebar in vector
[20:42:00] <Platonides>	what would be navigation block is outside any block
[20:42:10] <Platonides>	thus the next one is expanded
[20:42:15] <Platonides>	which is sometimes participate
[20:42:19] <Platonides>	sometimes print & export...
[20:42:52] <RoanKattouw>	That's what enwiki gets when it messes around in MediaWiki:Sidebar
[20:43:00] <kibble>	Platonides, on what wiki?
[20:43:03] <RoanKattouw>	The first section is expanded by default
[20:43:39] <kibble>	Like Roan said, the first section is expanded by default.
[20:44:05] <Platonides>	yes, but the first section can be many different things
[20:44:16] <RoanKattouw>	Yes
[20:44:34] <thedj>	kibble: hmm, perhaps i made an incorrect assumption about the smartness of webkit inspector. it seems it doesn't have a full implementation of specifity....
[20:44:34] <RoanKattouw>	I think we figured people would put 'important' stuff in the first section
[20:44:46] <Platonides>	I don't think it makes sense to have print & export expanded by default
[20:45:00] <Platonides>	the first section is navigation
[20:45:10] <Platonides>	which for some reason isn't inside a section
[20:45:46] <RoanKattouw>	"some reason" would be enwiki's tweaking of [[MediaWiki:Sidebar]] post-rollout
[20:46:28] <thedj>	kibble: hmm, this is gonna be really tricky. I think this needs to be discussed with the de community, because i see no good way to do this without changing their Common.css
[20:46:52] <Platonides>	RoanKattouw, so i thought, first
[20:46:59] <Platonides>	but on eswiki there's no navigation section either
[20:47:04] <RoanKattouw>	Hm
[20:47:07] <Platonides>	and we didn't change the sidebar
[20:47:14] <RoanKattouw>	That's weird
[20:47:58] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: I have committed some code that grabs the Accept-Language through the bridge I wrote earlier, drops languages with q=0 and prepends the rest to your languages array
[20:48:32] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: On first load, the user's Accept-Language is not taken into account because we need time for the AJAX request and such. If the data is immediately available through the cookie (second request), it is used
[20:49:38] <Manuelt15>	Platonides: so... what happened to my iw's? :(
[20:50:03] <Platonides>	are you on a page with interwikis?
[20:50:14] <Manuelt15>	yep
[20:50:58] <TrevorParscal>	RoanKattouw: right on
[20:51:05] <TrevorParscal>	can we stage this on a prototype?
[20:51:10] <Platonides>	I don't know how you ended with that "vector-p-" cookie :/
[20:51:16] <Platonides>	have you tried a hard refresh?
[20:51:19] <kibble>	thedj, we can probably talk to them, I'm sure they'd be okay with changing their Common.css
[20:51:41] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: Sure thing. I'm calling it a night very soon now
[20:51:56] <TrevorParscal>	understood
[20:52:27] <Manuelt15>	Platonides: I even deleted all cache/cookies/tempfiles/etc
[20:52:32] <Manuelt15>	http://i46.tinypic.com/25f20ds.png
[20:52:52] <Platonides>	can you click it?
[20:53:11] <TrevorParscal>	RoanKattouw: my accept lannguage cookie on my localhost isn't showing any content - is that normal for localhost?
[20:53:21] <Manuelt15>	nope
[20:53:44] <TrevorParscal>	Manuelt15: can I get a larger screenshot?
[20:53:50] <TrevorParscal>	I can barely see what's going on
[20:53:57] <Platonides>	Manuelt15, reload everything again
[20:54:11] <Manuelt15>	k
[20:54:20] <Platonides>	I removed the local hack
[20:54:22] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: If your Accept-Language is empty, it would be. Look at LiveHTTPHeaders or Firebug AJAX console thingy to find out which Accept-Language headers your browser is sending
[20:54:31] <Platonides>	although that shouldn't affect :/
[20:55:26] <Manuelt15>	uhhhmmm,... [off topic] you enabled sitenotice globally without applying vector first? :S
[20:55:36] <Platonides>	yes, they did
[20:55:58] <Manuelt15>	:|
[20:56:23] <TrevorParscal>	?
[20:56:25] <Platonides>	I'm seeing Languages collapsed by default
[20:56:31] <TrevorParscal>	where?
[20:56:37] <Platonides>	enwiki, no cookie for that :/
[20:56:45] <Platonides>	that shouldn't be happening, right?
[20:56:58] <TrevorParscal>	we haven't deployed anything yet
[20:57:09] <Platonides>	Oh, I thought you did
[20:57:29] <Platonides>	Manuelt15, that didn't fix?
[20:57:49] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: OK should be live on prototype now
[20:57:58] <TrevorParscal>	cool
[20:58:03] <Manuelt15>	wait
[20:58:49] <Platonides>	"wgCollapsibleNavForceNewVersion is not defined"
[20:58:56] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: OK I'm gonna go now, will be back briefly in ~30 mins before definitively calling it a night
[20:59:03] <RoanKattouw>	Blegh
[20:59:07] <RoanKattouw>	Platonides: Lemme clear the HTML cache
[20:59:21] <TrevorParscal>	k
[21:00:20] <Manuelt15>	Platonides: http://i46.tinypic.com/2v9eqrn.png with the hack disabled
[21:00:32] <RoanKattouw>	Platonides: Done, please hard refresh and check again
[21:00:41] <Manuelt15>	with that enabled just shows "en otros idiomas" and no iw's
[21:01:19] <Platonides>	you have collapsible navs disabled?
[21:01:38] <Platonides>	RoanKattouw, I see a php backtrace
[21:02:00] <Platonides>	http://p.defau.lt/?j_V8LRfxpojICDG622N3_A
[21:02:03] <RoanKattouw>	Blegh
[21:03:15] <Manuelt15>	Platonides: yes, only happens with collapsible disabled
[21:03:41] <Manuelt15>	I mean, hack-on + collapsible disabled is the problem
[21:03:44] <Platonides>	how did you disable it?
[21:04:37] <Platonides>	Roan: Parse error: syntax error, unexpected T_SL, expecting ')' in /srv/org/wikimedia/prototype/extensions/UsabilityInitiative/UsabilityInitiative.hooks.php on line 33
[21:04:48] <Manuelt15>	preferencias > apariencias > Activar el menú de navegación izquierda plegable
[21:04:50] <Platonides>	svn conflict?
[21:04:52] <Manuelt15>	is in all wikis
[21:05:13] <RoanKattouw>	Looks like it, yes
[21:07:19] <Platonides>	Manuelt15, I readded the hack with a check
[21:07:22] <Platonides>	does it work now?
[21:07:51] <Manuelt15>	nope
[21:08:30] <RoanKattouw>	OK prototype should be repaired now
[21:09:09] <Platonides>	try again
[21:09:50] <Platonides>	seems repaired, yes
[21:10:07] <RoanKattouw>	I messed up by removing the cache dirs completely
[21:10:10] <RoanKattouw>	Then recreating them wrong
[21:10:11] <Platonides>	the languages should be indented, imho
[21:11:05] <Manuelt15>	aaaaaaaaaaaand....works! :D
[21:40:02] <howief>	hey RoanKattouw_away
[21:41:14] <TrevorParscal>	RoanKattouw_away: you in bed yet?
[21:41:23] *TrevorParscal 	dials into Roan's sleeping brain
[21:41:35] <TrevorParscal>	(strange dial-up sounds emerge from the computer)
[21:42:47] *thedj 	hands out some stroopwafels for the usability team.
[21:43:58] <Platonides>	roan's anti-dialer software blocked trevor
[21:44:11] <Romaine>	is there somewhere a list who is in that team thedj? I like some stroopwafels :p
[21:45:19] <thedj>	if you feel you are part of 'the change' you are welcome to take one
[21:45:44] <Platonides>	no interwiki collapsability requirement ? ;)
[21:50:20] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: Checking back quickly before I go to bed for real
[21:51:55] <Platonides>	roan, I opened a but for that strange navigation issue
[21:52:16] <RoanKattouw>	OK thanks
[21:52:19] <Platonides>	happy sleep
[21:52:57] <TrevorParscal>	RoanKattouw hi
[21:53:13] <TrevorParscal>	so, I resolved the issues in the code you reviewed
[21:53:31] <TrevorParscal>	Naoko was hoping we could make the cluster have languages expanded by default immediately
[21:53:45] <RoanKattouw>	That we can do
[21:53:54] <Romaine>	thedJ: please see email, I think not everything ia going right with the current global notice
[21:53:54] <TrevorParscal>	so we can either update the cluster to a vesion just before I reverted it
[21:54:01] <RoanKattouw>	In theory we could deploy our code with the default config
[21:54:05] <TrevorParscal>	or push out the latest, either way it does the same thing
[21:54:09] <RoanKattouw>	In practice, I'm just gonna revert your revert
[21:54:14] <TrevorParscal>	sure
[21:54:21] <TrevorParscal>	that way you can sleep tonight
[21:54:31] <RoanKattouw>	(Our code with both $wg's set to false should theoretically have the same effect, but meh)
[21:54:34] <RoanKattouw>	Yes
[21:54:48] <TrevorParscal>	anyways, tomorrow we will probably be ready to deploy the new version
[21:55:01] <TrevorParscal>	we have some click tracking stuff to setup still so we're clearly not ready yet
[21:55:06] <TrevorParscal>	plus we should do more testing
[21:55:14] <TrevorParscal>	and blacklist PS3 for the nav as well
[21:55:26] <TrevorParscal>	(we have one in the office now, and we're finally fixing it up)
[21:56:07] <RoanKattouw>	OK
[21:56:12] <RoanKattouw>	I need User-Agent data about the PS3
[21:56:19] <RoanKattouw>	The sooner that lands in my inbox the better
[21:56:40] <thedj>	RoanKattouw: http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/Playstation%203/
[21:57:00] <Romaine>	whoops, I just hit reply, I now send the email only to Casey :S
[21:57:20] <Platonides>	wow, a simple User-Agent
[21:57:25] <thedj>	Romaine: just past in a query to me. no problem.
[21:57:27] <Platonides>	they seemed extinct
[21:57:45] <Romaine>	thedj: message seems lost :S
[21:58:01] <RoanKattouw>	thedj: Cool thanks
[21:58:11] <RoanKattouw>	I will code up browser detection for PS3 tomorrow
[22:01:33] <thedj>	RoanKattouw: ps, http://www.design215.com/read.php?title=playstation%203%20browser%20specs if you wanna know how bad the 1st version of the PS3 browser really is.
[22:02:05] <thedj>	RoanKattouw: i believe newer versions are somewhat better, but it is all but a full browser :D
[22:02:52] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah we were talking about redirecting it to mobile
[22:05:48] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: Deployed. Usual caveats about Squid caching apply
[22:07:30] <TrevorParscal>	thanks man!
[22:08:16] <Romaine>	thedj: now you do got mail
[22:11:27] <TrevorParscal>	RoanKattouw: can you mark my code as not fixme
[22:11:36] <TrevorParscal>	i fixed all the fixmes :)
[22:11:48] <RoanKattouw>	Will re-review tomorrow
[22:11:51] <TrevorParscal>	:)
[22:11:52] <TrevorParscal>	thanks
[22:12:23] <Romaine>	strange that the global notice is only depending on the language users have set...
[22:14:02] <RoanKattouw>	That's what these things do
[22:14:10] <RoanKattouw>	Global notices aren't per-wiki
[22:14:18] <RoanKattouw>	If you want per-wiki notices, use MediaWiki:Sitenotice
[22:14:41] <RoanKattouw>	(The exact same mistake was made for the enwiki rollout, although arguably this is more justifiable)
[22:14:52] <cary-wfh>	+1 Ro
[22:14:58] <cary-wfh>	+1 RoanKattouw
[22:16:44] <RoanKattouw>	OK calling it a night for real now
[22:17:42] <Romaine>	strange use of this functionality then :S
[22:17:48] <RoanKattouw>	Note that I will not be reading my e-mail until around 8am PDT tomorrow