[17:04:47] adam_miller: can you put https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=24528 high on the list ? [17:05:06] rather annoying to have that in live software. [17:05:26] Roan is on holiday or something ? [17:05:37] oh sure...feel free to CC me on anything like that in the future [17:05:47] or even just assign it to me [17:06:29] yeah Roan's on vacation until the 31st [17:08:19] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dialogs_not_working.png [17:08:23] what it looks like [17:16:33] thedj: is that on en.wikipedia? [17:16:38] yup [17:16:46] are you logged in? [17:16:49] yes [17:17:23] hmm i can't replicate it in safari or chrome [17:17:35] *thedj suspects prototype expansion of array by Twinkle. [17:18:18] how commonly used is Twinkle? [17:18:50] among active wikipedians, it's probably in the top5 [17:21:00] adam_miller: actually, it's the mwEmbed gadget [17:22:11] ok thanks...i'll see if there isn't another way we can write that line thats causing trouble [17:22:33] it can also be a bug in mwEmbed of course. /me no clue.. [18:59:52] thedj: i can not figure this out....maybe TrevorParscal can [19:00:09] hi [19:00:15] what are we figuring? [19:00:43] seems like when you have both twinkle and mwembed enabled, $.fn.dialog is suddenly undefined [19:01:02] which breaks all the dialogs [19:03:15] jui.combined.min.js is loaded, draggable and resizable seem to work, but not dialog [19:05:03] oddness [19:05:10] is this on en.wp right now? [19:06:02] yes [19:06:25] actually maybe jquery ui just isn't being loaded [19:08:21] TrevorParscal: what should the file be called that has jquery ui in it be called on production? [19:08:48] hmmm [19:09:21] jquery.min.js [19:10:56] isn't that just jquery? i thought we always kept jquery ui in a separate file [19:11:26] TrevorParscal: this is the bug that started me looking into this -> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=24528 [19:14:59] oh... jquery.ui... [19:15:04] sorry [19:15:14] hyper-multi-tasking is taking it's toll [20:15:28] <^demon> TrevorParscal: When you get a sec (doesn't have to be today necessarily), I wanted you to take a look at the vector-y things I'm doing with the installer. Can't quite get it right :) [20:15:59] n/p [20:16:36] I imagine it will be pretty simple to pull off... [22:17:21] Heh [22:19:15] They finally opened "switch to monobook" poll [22:19:47] howief: what's UX team's opinion on that matter? [22:20:04] sorry, what [22:20:07] is the question? [22:20:43] howief: in Russian Wikipedia, there is a poll about switching skin back to Monobook [22:20:51] What should I do? [22:21:04] what are the main reasons? [22:21:22] and is there evidence that new users are disliking vector? [22:21:59] howief: "they did it without our consent", "we do not like it" [22:22:18] would it be possible to encourage folks to switch back on an individual basis? [22:22:52] <^demon> The other option of course is setting default skin for logged in users to Monobook and the anonymous default still at vector :) [22:23:03] howief: they have a very strong prejudice, and I'm not a professional psychologist to pursue them [22:23:31] the features are meant to make it easier for new users to edit and i'd be afraid that the ones that vote aren't adequately representative of new users [22:24:11] ^demon: yes, but then we have the issue of a new user experiencing vector and once they create an account, the interface changes on them [22:24:42] howief: the question is: how shall I proceed? [22:24:44] vvv: are there any gadgets that are still broken [22:24:54] No [22:25:10] is the poll up already? [22:25:31] Yes [22:25:35] 10:10 [22:25:45] can you send me the link? [22:26:33] http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%8F:%D0%93%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F/%D0%9D%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BD [22:27:09] (reading) [22:28:07] so i'm looking at #1 under "no" [22:28:49] what is the issue with "rule" and "history"? I'm using Google Translate and the translation reads funny [22:30:28] howief: cs wiki ppl also strongly dislike vector. some users left wikipedia because of the switch [22:30:52] thanks Danny_B [22:31:04] i know some people will have strong opinions about vector [22:31:16] can someone help me understand why these users don't simply change their preferences? [22:31:34] howief: yes i can, it's very simple [22:31:50] old users have accounts on many wikis [22:32:11] so is the issue that it's a pain to change their preference across all wikis these users are part of? [22:32:19] let me finish pls [22:32:27] howief: search bar position [22:32:30] (sorry - did mean to interrupt) [22:32:51] Edit and history buttons are moved to the right side [22:32:53] (i'll finish with EOT ;-)) [22:32:59] you switched the skin and other features depending on it (leave a page dialog, editor, search bar etc...) [22:33:28] there are several problems with preferences regarding this [22:33:54] the pain is that maybe people work on many projects, then it should be needed that there exact global-prefrences [22:34:23] 1) there is a preference "default" skin instead of "monobook" skin, so even though they have explicitely monobook, the switch will turn to vector [22:35:23] 2) you push new features people do not want/need (new editbar etc.) together with switch of the skin - that should be _on_ by default only for new registered users [22:36:43] 3) vector consumes hella lot resources - bigger amount of data to download, javascript terribly slow, often freezes a browser or (in ff) causes "the script takes too long, abort debug wait" [22:37:32] 4) vector has lot of problems with navigation - ppl were used to random keybort shortcuts or sequencies which do not work anymore without any reasonable reason [22:37:57] etc., there are many things like that [22:38:06] and as it has been mentioned [22:38:09] This is very helpful [22:38:29] the biggest trouble of all is, that going back is hella pain because of no global prefs [22:38:38] meaning the preferences are lost? [22:38:50] that was totally wrong conception pushing vector before global prefs [22:39:18] people get so upste they have to go back to every single wiki and switch back [22:39:29] ok [22:39:40] if there were global prefs, there would be one click. now it's pain [22:39:48] i understand [22:39:53] especiall ybecause the change is not on all wikis at once [22:40:00] and what is the currentt magnitude of this problem? [22:40:12] do we have a sense of % of users and, on average, how many wikis? [22:40:12] Danny_B: one of complains say "whenever I see Wikipedia when logged-out, I feel aestatic shock" [22:40:35] so one can't do it in one dedicated day, but has to spend more of them everytime new batch of switch is done [22:40:36] People don't always use Wikipedia on the workstations where they can log in [22:40:54] what's keeping them from logging in? [22:41:07] security of course, howief [22:41:25] you won't log in with your password on unsecured wifi or public terminal [22:41:27] so these users would then edit anonymously because they do not want to log in? [22:41:49] howief: no, there are users reading anonymously [22:41:56] why edit, can't they just browse and have headache because of vector? [22:42:00] and they are confounded by the read interface [22:42:16] ok [22:42:25] howief: they do not like outlook of Vector [22:42:33] btw i did not mention accessibility of vector, which is also one big trouble :-/ [22:43:10] so how wide-spread is the issue of monobook users unable to read in vector? [22:43:26] sorry unable to read in monobook [22:43:27] howief: lot of people (including newbies) complained about hidden "additional tabs" [22:43:39] i forgot to mention that [22:43:43] interesting -- what exactly do they say? [22:44:24] howief: let me find one bug regarding this, it will give you an example, just a sec... [22:44:30] ok thanks [22:44:55] in the meantime let's go back to Danny_B 's issues (#1-4) [22:45:40] my disc is swapping because of performing search now on files, so the bug # will take a bit [22:46:00] re: #1: Yes, that's something we were aware of (users selecting monobook explicitly and not being able to respect that preference) [22:46:38] unfortunately, we were not able to come up with a solution for that before going default [22:46:55] people can also create two usernames, one for safe area, other for unsafe [22:47:00] similar for #2: We would ideally have a more robust preference management system [22:47:09] howief: well, that is actually not an excuse [22:47:15] no, it's not an excuse [22:47:35] i'm just letting you know how we went through this [22:47:50] <^demon> W.r.t.: #1....if you pick "Default skin" you're picking whatever the site sets as default. If you really wanted Monobook, you should've bothered to pick "Monobook" [22:48:09] <^demon> Rather than assuming that default == monobook forever. [22:48:18] ^demon: you're wrong [22:48:30] re: #3: TrevorParscal and roan are working a script loader which hopefully should help with the js issues [22:48:33] there is NO way how to pick monobook [22:49:08] <^demon> Um, what Mediawiki are you using? I can definitely pick Monobook. [22:49:17] re: #4: is there a list of keyboard shortcuts that don't work anywhere? [22:49:33] ^demon: pick monobook, then switch the default skin on your wiki and tell me... [22:49:45] <^demon> Oh yeah dur [22:49:47] but as i understand it, there is nothing in the system that recognizes the fact that a user has explicitly picked monobook [22:49:47] <^demon> That was fixed :) [22:49:51] (assuming you had monobook as default prior to the swirtch) [22:50:07] <^demon> That needs to be sync'd...sooner rather than later. [22:50:41] *Romaine has only had one problem on all the projects together with keyboard shortcuts: the project where it didn't worked with monobook either [22:50:41] too late [22:51:20] after so many people already pi..ed off (sorry to be explicit, my vocabulary on these purposes is very small :-/) [22:52:31] howief: re the loader - well, until we will have unnecessary bells and whistles, it still will be slow and resource consuming [22:52:56] can you be more specific? [22:53:24] howief: re those missing advanced tabs - bug 24481 - see my comment there eg. [22:54:01] thanks for sending [22:54:02] re bells and whistles - the major example: why do we need animation? [22:54:28] what specific animation - i know some animation is there to let the user know stuff is happening [23:09:11] tabs on load are kind of sliding/hiding - there's some bug about it [23:09:53] the sidebar collapsible portles are animated [23:10:51] go it [23:10:55] got it [23:11:17] i'll ask parul to comment on the animation, but i don't want that discussion to derail the current one [23:14:41] 23250 is that animated tabs bug