[16:57:37] _o/ [16:57:45] guillom!!!! [16:58:03] * James_F waves. [16:58:12] Greetings, humans and others. [17:00:11] #inclusive [17:08:09] o/ [17:08:52] I love it when this channel stops being a ghost town. [17:39:41] :D [17:39:55] Briefly. [17:40:30] It occurs to me that I maybe shouldn't be the only op in this channel if it's going to be an important part of our event infrastructure [17:41:12] but we trust you [17:41:15] Which WiFi is the recommended one? Wikimedia or Presidio? [17:41:22] Elitre: I'm not sure you should [17:41:26] "Wikimedia" i believe! [17:41:41] Why, Mark? Untapped those beers already? :p [17:41:43] Wikimedia is the one with a big sign up about it at registration, so I'd assume it's preferred. [17:41:51] Elitre: Not yet! [17:41:57] Yes, Wikimedia/wikimedia17 works well. [17:42:02] * marktraceur didn't bring any homebrew beer this time, sadly [17:43:03] ohai [17:43:21] If anyone is willing to be an op here, PM me and we can talk. I never expected there to be any real use of my joke IRC channel. :P [17:44:08] Cool. The proper one is about 10x faster (9Mbps). Good stuff [17:44:47] marktraceur: need help? /me doesn't pm [17:45:28] greg-g: Not necessarily but I'd be happy to have a cadre of sane and experienced IRCers to keep an eye on things. [17:45:52] * greg-g wonders if he makes the cut [17:46:03] greg-g: Sure :) [17:46:12] * greg-g had caffeine this morning, not normal, and is a bit punchy [17:56:49] It seems the program page points to wikimedia-tech as the discussion channel [17:56:56] Is that right? [17:57:11] Ugh, who knows [17:57:32] Krinkle: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit says #wmhack [17:57:39] I thought it was right, and this channel just my habbit. But then Rachel did point to this one on stage. [17:57:43] Since rfarrand announced this channel we might as well normalize [17:58:13] Alright [17:58:13] Oh, I see. Each session has a link to -tech. [17:58:14] redirect joins from #wikimedia-tech to #wmhack ;) [17:58:17] then by all means, let's all make the same edit [17:58:21] greg-g: Solid idea [17:58:30] see, give me op [18:01:21] <_joe_> I don't think redirecting people from -tech to here is a good idea [18:01:32] <_joe_> people get to tech to report things that are broken [18:02:43] marktraceur Krinkle: i only just added #wmhack on that page after rachel announced it https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_Developer_Summit&diff=2347389&oldid=2342425 [18:02:50] ...but it's also been stated on https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit/2017/Remote_Participation [18:02:58] Both channels are being used. [18:03:19] great [18:03:20] This channel is for social, and for discussions in some rooms. The other channel is for discussions in other rooms. [18:03:27] let's a open a third one for good measure [18:03:34] _joe_: I'm pretty much 100% non-serious right now, ftr [18:03:47] <_joe_> eheh [18:03:49] <_joe_> ok [18:04:39] quiddity: not confusing at all ;) [18:04:45] <_joe_> quiddity: oh it's the usual "let's have two systems that perform mostly the same tasks, but not quite", as per WMF tradition :) [18:04:53] ;p [18:05:05] * _joe_ couldn't resist making a grumpy remark [18:05:16] It would be confusing to have people sending live questions, about 2 concurrent sessions, to the same channel! [18:06:44] <_joe_> quiddity: that actually makes sense, of course; it doesn't mean it can't be used to make a grumpy remark about our practices ;) [18:06:55] ofc! [18:09:29] It would be more confusing to have live questions about 2 concurrent sessions go to two seperate channels than in one session. I assume however that the idea is that the distribution isn't random :P [18:10:05] Let's hope. [18:11:12] Didn't we have per-room channels last year? Not that I want that to happen, but I'm trying to recall [18:12:03] Maybe they were all etherpads. [18:12:34] marktraceur: I think they were etherpads copied into Phab, yeah. [18:12:55] Hrm [18:13:04] Ohai melodykramer. [18:13:54] https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_Developer_Summit%2F2017%2FProgram&type=revision&diff=2347392&oldid=2347388 [18:13:56] Krinkle: whyyy [18:14:29] It's the one https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit mentions, and the one Rachel mentioned on stage. [18:14:47] (I'm going to update the schedule now, to push some of the discussions into -tech) [18:15:15] Thanks quiddity [18:15:17] Sounds good. We can use the schedule to also assign concurrent sessions in differnet channels. [18:15:36] My edit may've broken it if that was already the case. Didn't think of that :/ [18:15:37] #itscomplicated [18:15:42] Sorry. ##itscomplicated [18:16:42] Done. [18:18:21] oh my. he just killed the elePHPant [18:18:44] * marktraceur is over here twitching at this code [18:28:08] Slide says "no where to look for guidance | can or can't influence creativity | great decisions make a mess | read all the code in one sitting | silicon valley is a hard place | how come I know javascript" [18:34:39] who is speaking? [18:35:47] I don't recognize him [18:35:59] could we ask question askers to state their name first? [18:36:13] yes please [18:36:33] melodykramer: ^^ [18:36:55] I pinged srishakatux, who is in the room. [18:37:02] thanks [18:37:02] But if someone else is there, feel free to shout that out! [18:37:21] * marktraceur done [18:37:35] thanks marktraceur [18:37:56] "I wonder how you feel about open source software in general? Political and pragmatic aspect? Do you subscribe to either or both of those?" - Yaron Koren [18:41:31] Adam White: "You have some good things to share about how you do things should evolve? Can you talk about evolving what we're doing? The frame I think about this in is Wikia, which can support 10,000s of wikis and WMF has been supporting the same subset of Wikis." [18:41:54] Wight* [18:42:03] Thanks! [18:42:07] Yarp [18:45:22] "We're walking slowly because we're going far." Q: "Can you talk a little bit about how software and computer code relates to human language and can you share some insights about how computer code relates to communication. That relates to agile because it's about software dev as a social activity - so there's a big component of that is communication through [18:45:23] code. How you space / name a variable / find abstractions is part of communicating with others. Could you talk a bit about that?" [18:46:05] I'll get that Melody [18:47:39] qgil_, I think that was a transcription of Andrew's question. [18:47:40] qgil_: I was just transcribing what was just asked! [18:47:53] For the remoties who might have trouble hearing the microphone. [18:48:08] Oops. [18:48:16] the transcription is really helpful fwiw [18:48:35] Wait! No. Not a question! [18:48:37] * marktraceur wonders how many times melodykramer and qgil_ will loop through the same question [18:48:39] <_joe_> lol [18:48:43] oh goodness. [18:48:50] <_joe_> hihi [18:49:00] Yeah, we can't hear the questions very well online, so the transcriptions... really help. [18:49:09] okay, that works too. What it takes to read code? is what's being answered! [18:49:17] see how often ward gives different answers, a 3 person game of telephone [18:49:24] :-) [18:49:24] greg-g: it's your turn. [18:49:28] :P [18:50:03] I'm trying to do many things, sorry if I took as a question what wasn't one? [18:50:22] No problem :) [18:50:39] qgil_: Q: "Earlier you said Wikipedia has no where to look for guidance, which can be problematic. At the same time, Wikis are losing editors, and one of the potential places they're going to are social networks. Do you think wikis should try and incorporate social networking features? Bonus: Are/Should wikis be social networks?" [18:51:05] legoktm: ok, i'm in the queue [18:51:49] Transcribed (already-asked) Q: "If we are speaking about the language and vocab and things like this, looking at how we know have wikis and they're now targeting prose and text, what do you think the lessons are in terms of tech if we want to take this to new forms of storytelling with new media types and other directions? What can we learn from what we've [18:51:49] learned from Wiki and Markdown." [18:53:23] person who was their screen partially on the youtube public live feed may not be aware it is [18:53:26] has [18:54:00] Agh, I wish this livestream were louder. I can barely hear this even with everything turned up all the way. >.> [18:54:02] is there just one camera feed? [18:54:08] the camera on stage right? [18:54:26] There's a problem with Google Hangouts right now so this is being recorded in a different way. (And the room changed last minute, I believe.) brendan_campbell is on it. [18:54:36] it shows more of the audience [18:54:59] (I see now what is happening. I thought that transcript was being taken on etherpad, and that Melody had a question... How embarrassing) [18:55:26] no worries! The legoktm question is in the queue. I can switch over to Etherpad for notes. [18:55:56] I was planning to do that post-session to help the people following remotely in here first! [18:56:00] we are finishing soon, thank for taking notes! [18:59:01] I somewhat wish the flagpole holders above the stage had MediaWiki flags flying. :-) [18:59:19] hehehe [18:59:25] Feedback! [18:59:33] 'facebook button' - tweets. [18:59:36] Oh, pfft. [19:00:36] James_F: I'm looking into flag makers now ;p [19:01:01] Seddon: Oh dear. [19:01:19] That was not a funny question! [19:01:47] I think a flag for Wikimedia with a flag each for MediaWiki, Editing, Reading, and Discovery could work. [19:02:29] That seems weird, though - the latter three are wmf-specific aspects of the first one, which is not just wmf. [19:02:53] Although it makes sense, too, just because that's what it is. [19:02:55] Um. [19:03:35] thanks qgil_ and ward [19:03:44] Well, all the last three have non-trivial bits outside MediaWiki. But mostly I was just riffing off there being a 1+4 configuration. :-) [19:04:09] Fair enough. [19:04:17] I just confused myself, anyway. >.> [19:04:38] I can't hear this question. [19:04:54] PS, context links regarding my question https://github.com/fedwiki http://www.wired.com/2012/07/wiki-inventor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:HaeB/Timeline_of_distributed_Wikipedia_proposals [19:04:54] Wikimedia, MediaWiki, Gerrit, Phabricator, Jenkins [19:05:04] "The last five years you had a new Wiki project? Is it the federated Wiki?" [19:05:30] Hard stop!!! [19:06:22] I was hoping qgil would run up on stage with a giant red stop sign [19:06:37] that was a great talk [19:06:38] Get him one [19:06:48] When you get there. [19:08:09] Hello! If you're watching remotely, the next session's YouTube link has changed. It's now here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsxiylvPv4Q - come watch "The future of Wikidata query service" in 10 minutes or so. [19:08:45] Pity they can't all be livestreamed. [19:09:41] I love all the hippy 60s/70s SF interlude music [19:13:13] There is also an unconference session that will be livestreamed in 10 minutes: Newcomer-friendly edit-review tools: help imagine what that looks like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h461gCZQhN4 [19:25:01] can the gdoc link be provided? [19:26:22] Is there someone in Joe Mattazoni's talk who can share the GDoc in here? [19:28:46] crossposting, Notes for that session : https://docs.google.com/document/d/175H5rkaHMFQTWw-U991_G1MpCUVEJACzoQJgPbFchog/edit#heading=h.inavjztc6qvc [19:28:46] 11:26 Boradcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h461gCZQhN4 [19:29:11] This is the link to Wiki Query Data: https://query.wikidata.org/ [19:30:33] Is something happening in the one Elitre linked? I can't even tell, and I'm only getting it in one ear WHAT IS GOING ON WITH MY CONNECTION?! [19:30:36] * Isarra kicks it. [19:30:51] Your ear? Impressive. [19:31:01] that's working for me right now, Isarra [19:31:13] Thanks. [19:31:18] I added that Google Doc to the schedule. Thanks Elitre! [19:31:28] Notes from the Wikidata Query Service session: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/WDQSsession [19:31:42] Owww, what. [19:32:18] Okay, all the audio is coming through very jitterily and I can't understand a word of it. [19:32:39] brendan_campbell: Thoughts? [19:32:47] Isarra: if you see nothing in the doc though, then maybe your connection is having issues? [19:32:59] It was the livestream. [19:33:03] Isarra: which session are you currently watching [19:33:16] The unconference one. [19:33:22] The wikidata one seems to be working perfectly. [19:33:57] okay. thanks for letting me know. listening now and it sounds good, but it was breaking up earlier [19:34:16] will continue to monitor and take action if the problem returns [19:34:20] Concerning the session "Newcomer-friendly edit-review tools: help imagine what that looks like", please ping me if you have questions or want to interact. [19:34:26] Yeah, sounds better now, but still for some reason only coming through on one channel. [19:34:29] Notes for both sessions are now added to the conference program: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit/2017/Program#Monday.2C_January_9th [19:35:03] 1. The future of Wikidata query service. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsxiylvPv4Q Notes: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/WDQSsession [19:35:18] Isarra: yeah, only the Left channel is coming through. i may be able to sum it down to mono without stopping the stream, but am not sure. will check now [19:35:30] 2. Unconference: Newcomer-friendly edit-review tools: help imagine what that looks like Watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h461gCZQhN4 Notes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/175H5rkaHMFQTWw-U991_G1MpCUVEJACzoQJgPbFchog/edit#heading=h.inavjztc6qvc Contact Trizek if you have questions. [19:36:36] I can't really understand it due to the echoes and whatnot, either. [19:37:00] Any plans for support for better URL type with display text and link. Today you display the "raw" URL which is not so user friendly and take a lot of space. [19:37:39] Isarra: I think they're trying to enter them live on the gdoc [19:37:51] Isarra: i'll move the mic [19:38:35] I'm sorry, I just can't understand what's being said. But I'm not very good at parsing spoken communication to begin with. >.< [19:38:36] Let me know if there are issues with the mic in the Wikidata Query Service talk and I can move it [19:38:39] Just follow the end of the doc? [19:38:45] Sadly it will only capture anything in front of the mic [19:39:05] the audiio seems lagged [19:39:17] Wikidata one was quite clear. I just don't care as much about that one. :P [19:39:27] the question is already in the gdoc when they start talking :) [19:39:35] Isarra: It's okay, I was only talking to people that are interested anyway :-p [19:39:48] Well, I'm telling you it's pretty good. [19:39:54] Isarra: The note taking in the editing session is quite good: https://docs.google.com/document/d/175H5rkaHMFQTWw-U991_G1MpCUVEJACzoQJgPbFchog/edit#heading=h.inavjztc6qvc [19:40:04] If there are specific questions Trizek can relay them in the room. [19:40:36] I don't really know what's going on, though. Even with the notes. Since they seem to be a bit out of order, and... er. [19:40:43] i'll set up a second mic in the room currently hosting the streamed unconference after this session [19:41:34] @unconference: I don't think many patrollers will have the patience to be nice :( [19:41:40] Is there anything you can do about the echo, or is that inevitable in that room? [19:41:55] guiding a newcomer takes time [19:43:09] Isarra: it's inevitable in that room, but i can do something to help with it after this session. [19:43:18] brendan_campbell: Thanks. [19:43:33] Actually if you just get it to come on both ears, that would probably solve a lot too. >.> [19:43:35] i'll set a second mic and sum the mix to mono, should help. sorry about that [19:43:38] Yeah. [19:43:39] Platonides: it has been said (and I agree) [19:43:53] Trizek: I agreed with Seddon - I think that would be really useful and testable. [19:46:32] HELP [19:46:50] poi: Hi, what do you need help with? [19:48:32] are there notes for the community wishlist session too? [19:49:07] Is the stream fot the edit review stuff still there, or did I just lose connection again? [19:49:09] IIRC last year there was a default etherpad link for each session, perhaps that's worth including again? ( https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit_2016 ) [19:49:24] or was that removed on purpose this year? [19:49:42] The template given to session organizers was this: :https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-YourSession [19:49:53] but I'm not sure if everyone is using that because I see various Google Docs [19:50:12] Here is the page to collect notes from each session: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit/2017/All_Session_Notes [19:50:17] Some are using docs, some are using etherpad. [19:50:38] Isarra: it's still up and running [19:51:06] Okay, I can't connect. [19:51:46] ...FINE I'LL JUST WATCH THE QUERY ONE. I SEE WHAT YOU'RE DOING. [19:52:06] Isarra: One of us, one of us. [19:52:13] Isarra: Welcome! :-p [19:52:54] But I don't actually care that much! I think what y'all are doing is awesome, but... I don't really have much to contribute. :P [19:53:10] Like, I trust this to go in a sensible direction whether I know where it's going or not. [19:53:22] Isarra: Ditto but it's good to know about this stuff [19:53:27] True. [19:53:38] But it also tends to be relatively well-documented. [19:54:56] melodykramer: (re https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-YourSession ) i see - perhaps it's worth including the notes link before the session starts (instead of afterwards as that template recommends), so that participants can read along and contribute to the notes [19:55:19] That's a great idea HaeB - we're learning as we go along with this. I'll do that before the next round. [19:57:20] trying to get the best camera angles I can, but also respecting the red lanyards. if presenters could stand in front of the camera, that would be awesome! [19:58:41] I'm placing all completed notes here: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit/2017/All_Session_Notes#Monday_session_notes as well as in the schedule. [19:59:42] hey yurik. one comment about your comment re community wishlist: I'm with you. The only thing I want to add is that I have been thinking about how to do a similar thing for the work we do in research. There is a bit of challenge ahead of us to use this kind of structure to learn about what research is most useful for the community. [19:59:57] yurik: I've personally benefited in the research that I do now, by reading through comments by a couple of editors about what research is or is not useful. but those comments are very rare. :) [20:04:22] With the query thing, it existing in the present - that's like templates, right? [20:04:35] Don't we already have problems with templates not showing history and resulting in very weird things? [20:04:52] (I might be totally misunderstanding because I'm having a hard time following, though...) [20:06:46] HaeB: I've now added session notes templates for each of the next sessions on the program: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit/2017/Program#Monday.2C_January_9th - will add them for the rest of the sessions for today. [20:06:56] Excellent, thanks melodykramer. [20:14:22] Isarra: you're remote, right? just wanted to say "hi" :) [20:14:39] greg-g: Yeah. Hi! [20:14:48] I hope my complaining doesn't get too annoying. [20:14:51] :D [20:14:51] melodykramer: great! i guess these links will also be the way to find out who (if anyone) has taken one each of the four "key roles", including notetaker? https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit/2017/Session_Guidelines [20:15:13] Yes, I think the templates will really help with that HaeB! There's room to list each person. [20:15:13] Isarra: heh, not at all, keep it coming ;) [20:15:32] ...IIRC the registration included a question on whether on might want to volunteer for some of these, and I checked a box or two, but haven't heard back [20:15:33] I'm almost done creating templates for all of the sessions - we just need someone in each session to remind the room to click on that link and take notes. [20:18:01] <3 MaxSem [20:18:49] I wish I knew who was whom. Pity real life doesn't put glowing name labels over everyone's heads. [20:18:58] not yet! [20:19:06] We need the future. [20:19:06] drones, man, drones [20:19:12] Wait, what? [20:19:13] for further context on the last comment (C++), maxsem has actually done a lot of work on improving diffs ;) [20:19:14] Augmented hangouts! [20:19:33] Isarra: your own personal drone hovering over your head with your name and health/life meter, i guess :) [20:19:44] Just as long as they don't wind up like those conferences people were doing on second life. >.> [20:19:49] Ah. Yes. [20:20:10] Isarra: ugh, that was all the rage in my MSI/Library Science degree program.... hated it [20:20:20] I do want a health/life meter. That thing would be handy. [20:20:40] Warrior needs food badly [20:20:41] guillom: or a "how much longer I have to interact with others" meter [20:20:56] greg-g: You know me so well :p [20:20:58] Social stamina points ya [20:20:58] Red product manager needs food badly [20:21:05] guillom: because I know myself :) [20:21:14] greg-g: I am so sorry. We looked at it briefly in my animation courses as a use case, but it just looked... awkward. [20:21:36] Most of us do only have so much stamina. [20:21:40] Isarra: I get the appeal, but yeah [20:24:26] By grabthar's hammer, where is my baggage on the baggage claim [20:25:26] I don't think that a "you really shouldn't do that" comment adds much to the conversation actually. I believe similar concerns do not belong to the open mic session, really. [20:25:52] Dammit, livestream, stop cutting out. You were working. Keep working. [20:25:56] * Isarra stabs it. [20:27:01] When you circle round to your next break, can you remind people to take notes in each session and give them this link, which has session notes for each session helpfully next to each session: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit/2017/Program#Monday.2C_January_9th - we'd like to capture notes from each session today and tomorrow. [20:27:05] refreshing solved the problem for me [20:27:17] Isarra: ^ [20:27:20] Elitre: time/place should have been improved a bit yes, agree. [20:27:45] brendan_campbell: It's just happening randomly sometimes. [20:27:48] melodykramer and brendan_campbell save the day again! :) [20:27:52] Probably a local problem. [20:28:01] I dunno. Starbucks isn't exactly known for its great wifi. >.> [20:28:18] the encoder is dropping some frames here and there probably, as well. [20:28:21] It's just better than my internet. And 'better than my internet' is saying VERY little. [20:28:37] The frames aren't really an issue, but the audio matters. [20:29:04] Elitre: isn't it better if such a concern is raised now instead of e.g. months later in code review? Obviously, earlier would have been better, but it looks like the people taking up that new project had not yet connected to (some of) the people who had worked on related stuff earlier on this [20:29:57] HaeB: It may also matter how you bring it up. Just 'you shouldn't do that' doesn't really move things forward, but presenting why it could be a problem, or better alternatives can be quite helpful. [20:30:21] Especially early on when these things are exactly what need to be considered. [20:30:42] Session about "Newcomer-friendly edit-review tools: help imagine what that looks like" is now over. Notes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/175H5rkaHMFQTWw-U991_G1MpCUVEJACzoQJgPbFchog/edit# [20:31:03] HaeB: no. Birgit is not that project's developer, I think. Also, I think there may be better ways to present such concerns (such as "language X is better than language Y because of.... maybe you could consider this?"). If this is feedback, this is not actionable one. [20:32:05] Thank you Trizek! [20:32:26] Yeah, present feedback in an actionable way. People should be taking action. Action. [20:32:38] ...I'm being serious. That probably doesn't read as serious, but I am totally serious. [20:33:20] Isarra, Elitre: yeah, there could surely have been better ways to deliver it, but "one of the most experienced persons in this area has serious concerns about the way your team approaches this" seems relevant information already [20:33:52] Elitre: the comment was in response to the presenter emphasizing the language choice, so it seems a bit weird to declare language choice offtopic because the presenter is not a developer [20:34:32] HaeB: if you think the way doesn't matter that much, we don't have much to talk about really. [20:34:56] Ok I'm on my way :) [20:35:13] I don't know the context much, but generally focusing on the concerns themselves is important. [20:35:28] Since that way they can be addressed, one way or another. [20:37:45] HaeB: How you word things matters regardless of what you're talking about, or doing, or what other people said. We're all people here and respond to words, and when trying to do actual things, focusing on what moves the doing forward, regardless of in what direction, is important. [20:38:13] Without knowing the context - sometimes all you get is obnoxious feedback and you have to figure out the actual problem yourself [20:38:44] Elitre: I didn't say it doesn't matter much, I actually agreed that it matters. anyway, i don't have an interest in engaging in confrontational ("we don't have much to talk about") conversations about things that don't matter much to me personally, so i'll rather have lunch now [20:39:25] What bawolff_ said. All you can really do is try to not be obnoxious yourself when you're giving your own feedback. >.< [20:39:28] sure. [20:39:34] It's often totally hopeless, and I know I'm terrible at it, but still. [20:41:41] Please ensure you're taking notes in sessions! There are now templates for each session in the Monday schedule: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit/2017/Program#Monday.2C_January_9th with instructions at the top of each Etherpad! - I can't always see who is in each session, so if you're in one, please remind the speaker to find a [20:41:41] notetaker and use the template associated with your session! [20:44:05] Yeah, and it can be very difficult not to be offended when people phrase their feedback by saying your a horrible person [20:44:11] etc [20:44:39] OOo, like I do? [20:44:44] Wait, crap. [21:20:59] 10 minute warning! There are 5 sessions at 1:30 PT; two of them will be live streamed. [21:21:58] LIVESTREAM SESSION: Labsdbs for WMF tools and contributors: get more data, faster. [21:21:58] STREAM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js3JlUTmzSM [21:21:58] NOTES: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-Labsdbs [21:22:14] * melodykramer LIVESTREAM SESSION: Online Reader Engagement & Proto-Editor Onboarding [21:22:18] Whoops! [21:22:51] LIVESTREAM SESSION: Online Reader Engagement & Proto-Editor Onboarding [21:22:51] STREAM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g6AZaSI6hQ [21:22:51] NOTES: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-reader-engagement [21:24:07] Other sessions for in-person participants: [21:24:07] SESSION: Wikitext 2.0 [21:24:07] NOTES: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-wikitext2.0 [21:24:07] SESSION: Tools for curating and organizing editing work: what has been done and where to go next [21:24:07] NOTES: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-tools-for-curating [21:24:07] SESSION: Better recommending of tasks suitable for new technical contributors [21:24:08] NOTES: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-tools-for-new-contributors [21:25:34] just finished adding another mic to each room, so audio pickup should be more complete [21:25:43] Thanks brendan_campbell! [21:33:15] do we have an etherpad for Labsdbs for WMF tools and contributors: get more data, faster yet? [21:34:00] bd808__: don't think so [21:34:18] How about we use https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-T149624 [21:34:18] T149624: Labsdbs for WMF tools and contributors: get more data, faster - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T149624 [21:34:19] Yes, see above. Please use this NOTES: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-Labsdbs bd808__ [21:34:27] thanks melodykramer [21:34:34] ah nice [21:34:44] * bd808__ is bouncer challenged today [21:35:58] Online Reader Engagement & Proto-Editor Onboarding is starting now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g6AZaSI6hQ [21:36:30] Trizek: There's an etherpad for that session here: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-reader-engagement [21:36:46] Notes: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-reader-engagement. I'll be the spokeperson for remotees, please ping me. [21:41:03] stream seems to be dropping... [21:41:23] which session, bawolff? [21:41:32] I've been getting that with all of them. [21:41:34] The db one [21:41:39] seems to be ok now [21:42:02] dropping again [21:42:04] I'm getting drops in the editing education one. [21:42:07] Yup. [21:42:16] ping brendan_campbell ^ [21:42:17] Wait, are we getting drops at the same time? [21:42:41] I think there was just a drop in the editing/reader engagement session but it sounds good to me now! [21:43:27] monitoring reader engagement now for drops. sounds good to me now, but possibly dropped earlier [21:43:40] It's good at the moment. [21:44:35] Dropped. [21:44:44] And back. [21:45:18] Maybe it isn't on my end, since I just downloaded all of VE with no problems... [21:47:26] PEOPLE. TAKE NOTES. PLEASE. [21:49:02] If you're actually there and can take notes, it's really useful to those who aren't there since it fills in gaps when folks aren't picked up by the mic(s) or there's gaps. Doesn't make up for it all, but still really helps. [21:49:20] ...also helps for after the fact so you can figure out what people even came up with. [21:50:23] There are Etherpad templates for each session here: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit/2017/Program - find your session, take notes in there! [21:50:26] Trizek: Can you pester people to take notes? [21:50:28] >.> [21:50:46] yep [21:51:50] Okay, so where is the right one? [21:52:32] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-ProjectOREO [21:52:49] Thanks. [21:52:51] I'm changing it on the program as well. [21:54:00] Agh, I wish I could comment properly. [21:54:17] There is a gap between notes and the session. :/ [21:54:52] Trizek: Comment on what Seddon and whatnot said - sometimes you have to disrupt the existing workflows. You don't know if how things are going is optimal or if there's better, or problems with it, if you don't do the research. What we have already may be incomplete, but it's still useful, and definitely still worth continuing with... [21:55:14] Transmitting. [21:55:26] ...but whatever you do, you need a reason regardless. [21:55:28] Thanks. [21:55:34] And the stream is dropping again. [21:55:58] :/ [21:56:14] Do we have a good sense of what the existing workflows are? I would love to see the points at which people drop off / become overwhelmed / become confused. [21:56:59] That's an excellent question, and part of the problem is there are so many different workflows. What research has been done is usually on very specific ones, which is good, since they're all a bit distinct, but it also presents an incomplete picture. [21:58:08] It's also hard to tell exactly what is happening, too - you can see what's happening in general, that people are getting from point a to point b, but what happens between then is hidden because the users don't talk about it, or show you... [21:58:28] It's hard to research, especially for readers. That's the most difficult one to figure out at all... [21:59:03] Like we were researching how wikiprojects work and that's mostly with already established users, and the best we could come up with was to just ask people directly what they were doing. It's harder to ask readers what they're... not doing? [22:03:18] Trizek: There are a lot of processes. The point is generally to find those processes and work with them, whatever they are. Finding out more about one can also lead to others... [22:04:08] With a possible biais: assuming a common pattern is common to all cases. [22:04:40] It almost certainly isn't, but by looking into it, that way you can find where it doesn't apply, too. [22:05:02] True. [22:06:13] I mean, it won't get you everything, but it should get you something, at least... [22:06:24] Okay, stream may well be gone this time. [22:06:27] * Isarra prods it. [22:06:35] Ah, there we go. [22:07:36] i saw that drop too...will check how many frame drops we experienced once the session is over [22:07:49] may need to use a beefier computer or lower the resolution a bit [22:09:21] I'm wondering if the stream is being recorded and will be available? [22:09:28] For the most part, we don't even need much video to begin with. Just to tell who's talking. [22:09:36] It's kind of impossible to see the session happening at 4am [22:10:03] Seddon: <3 [22:11:15] Isarra: Have you seen Seddon's thumb up on the broadcast? [22:11:32] I missed it. [22:11:39] Wait, what? [22:12:19] His... thumb? [22:13:02] Like the opposable finger on a hand. [22:13:13] Yes? [22:13:28] So he put it up? [22:13:40] Yes. For your <3 [22:13:49] Oh. XD [22:13:53] :) [22:13:59] Yeah, missed it. So thanks for telling me. [22:14:54] Also thank you muchly for being relay person. [22:14:59] GODS DAMMIT STOP DROPPING. [22:15:03] You're welcome. [22:21:21] I'm listening to Ward's recording keynote now. This is interesting so far, I'm kind of sad I missed it, this is interesting [22:23:07] Oddly smaller wikis seem to be more helpful to new users than larger ones, despite not having the resources, for some reason... [22:23:12] In my experience, anyway. [22:23:41] Trizek: Question for Seddon: Are editors the right people to train new editors? We put that burden on them - it might not be a task they want to do, or a task that suits them.... [22:24:05] Who else is going to train them, though? The editors are the ones who know editing... [22:24:09] Are there ways to train new editors without relying on existing editors? It seems like there's an issue with scaling... [22:24:22] Queued. [22:24:28] bawolff: I believe he's about for a few days if you wanted to speak to him [22:24:42]