[00:00:25] session finished, the notes are available here: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-asynchronous-processing [00:01:25] Thanks volans ! [00:04:30] * yuvipanda will miss dev summit [00:04:45] Have fun and be productive everyone :) [00:05:12] Fun?! [00:05:16] IN OUR MEDIAWIKI?! [00:05:25] ...it's more likely than you think. [00:13:15] Next pile of sessions in 7 minutes. [00:18:09] Platforms are Products too! [00:18:09] NOTES: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-platforms-are-products [00:18:09] Bringing "Enterprise MediaWiki" to the Wikimedia Foundation [00:18:09] STREAM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj116oUF5-U [00:18:09] NOTES: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-enterprise-mediawiki [00:18:10] Cross-wiki templates, translatable, reusable, manageable [00:18:12] STREAM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzG7unxMtMc [00:18:14] NOTES: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-xwiki-templates [00:18:16] Support global preferences [00:18:19] NOTES: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-support-global-preferences [00:18:45] All starting soon, probably. [00:24:01] CROSS-WIKI TEMPLATES IS HAPPENING. [00:24:17] Okay, so's the enterprise one too. [00:28:07] Wow, there's birds of paradise growing outside the window in the enterprise one. [00:28:51] If you all have questions regarding the Brining Enterprise MediaWiki to the Wikimedia Foundation let me know. [00:29:25] Many thanks to Isarra for sharing the links. [00:30:19] You're welcome. [00:30:37] enterprise mediawiki seems to be dropping a lot of frames. is that just me? [00:30:46] I'm getting the same. [00:30:56] Well, I was. [00:31:46] Also the audio quality is way worse than the templates one. In case that is remotely useful to anyone. [00:31:50] I'm seeing a "This event will begin in a few moments" on YouTube. [00:33:01] Try reloading? I have no idea. [00:35:04] he forgot composer [00:38:07] Developers. [00:38:08] Developers. [00:38:08] Developers. [00:38:09] Developers. [00:38:10] Developers. [00:38:34] Devlopers? [00:38:52] Developers. [00:39:16] Developers! [00:40:04] Developersss!!! [00:40:10] Developers! [00:44:36] Developers???? [00:44:47] Developers!!!! [00:51:52] Street sweepers! [00:52:13] (I hope you all don't hear that on the stream) [00:53:17] Not too bad. [00:53:31] SHOW ME THE MONEY [00:53:44] tgr_: I've created https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Developer_Wishlist as a draft. :-) [00:53:47] Ahahahah I heard it start up and go away in one and now I hear it in the other... XD [00:55:56] "Street sweepers" has been said so many times in this channel today... [00:57:20] Apparently there is also a gun that was called a street sweeper for a time... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armsel_Striker [00:58:24] yes [00:58:55] Sweep the streets. Sweep the wikis. The databases. The templates. The developers. [00:59:17] this is what i get reminded of when hearing the word streetsweeper! an old roommate told me he saw it sold at a US gun show [00:59:47] Horrible name for a gun >.> [01:03:26] "due to weather issue in SF the flight will have a minor delay. Boarding time sooner or later"... [01:03:29] Twitter has a picture of the unconference board, but it's low res. Any possibility of a high res version? [01:03:57] Tpt: >__< [01:04:14] yes... [01:04:30] Just because something is a hack doesn't mean it's bad, though... [01:04:55] rfarrand: here? [01:08:02] MediaWiki Foundation [01:08:19] Reedy: !HSMWF [01:08:21] ;-) [01:08:46] I'm sure that was discussed last year (and the year before) too ;) [01:09:18] Wikipemediawikiwiki foundation. You know you want it. [01:09:29] It needs someone to write a convincing argument for the WMF Board and have them approve it (and thus reverse a huge set of previous serious discussions). [01:09:37] Just talking about it does nothing. [01:11:08] Just curious, are any of the board here? [01:11:21] (in the room) [01:11:24] No. [01:19:16] matanya: yup, whats up? [01:21:37] in here for about 5 more min and then leaving. If you send me an email ill try to answer pretty quickly. If you are here already you are welcome to stop by WMF this evening [01:21:42] matanya ^^ [01:21:49] Why not mix local and global templates? We mix global and local images and it's greeeeaaaaaat. [01:26:49] Also I like how they did this entire discussion in front of a blank blue screen. And it was fine. [01:27:09] Especially how everyone was still standing slightly to the side of the screen, so we could still see the screen. [16:37:07] Good morning SFO and good later morning, afternoon and evening to other participants. We'll be kicking things off today in about an hour, with a Wikimedia Foundation Technology and Product Q&A. You can tune in here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnhECg-2UJs [16:44:35] hi Melody. [16:47:46] hi Elitre! [16:48:06] Notes for the first session will be here: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-dev-and-product-q&a [17:06:39] It looks like notes for the first session will be here: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-EasyTasks - I will update the program. [17:12:05] Melody, that looks like the pad for a different session? [17:12:40] You are right Elitre - sorry - got confused. Ignore that! [17:21:00] Hello all! We'll be getting started with the keynote in about 10 minutes. Here's everything you need to know. Please note that the streaming link has been updated. [17:21:00] STREAM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0JdtauJkKs [17:21:00] NOTES: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-dev-and-product-q&a [17:21:00] PHAB TASK: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T153063 [17:32:41] The sound just got a lot less echo-y. Thank you! [17:32:45] (on the stream)' [17:34:43] Is there a designated notetaker for this session? [17:35:39] yes, there are 3. [17:35:58] good morning [17:36:28] Note-Taker(s): @ksmith, @Quiddity, @Aklapper [17:36:34] So the rule for asking questions today is, you're welcome to ask IF you are going to be involved with the answer after the Summit ends. Thanks! [17:36:37] Thanks! The notetaking document is here: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-dev-and-product-q&a [17:37:39] brendan_campbell: are you doing the stream this morning? is it possible to move the camera a bit? can't really see the speakers on stage... [17:37:43] I don't know if this is logistically feasible, but since there are no slides, it would be great if the camera was closer to the stage and showing the the people talking, rather than the backs of the people sitting. [17:37:51] Jinx! [17:38:55] I actually hadn't volunteered for notes, but can try to help [17:39:15] meeple27: You have been volunteered! [17:39:29] voluntold [17:39:34] Right. [17:42:28] I mean, because of the in-front-of-the-stage choice, you probably had a better view of the speakers than those of us actually in the hall anyway. [17:42:34] guillom: unfortunately this is the closest i can get. [17:42:57] i didnt know we were streaming in this room until yesterday morning, so i have to make due the best i can. apologize for the inconvenience [17:43:21] unless anyone in this room has a 50 foot hdmi cable... [17:43:32] brendan_campbell: no problem, I'm appreciative of the stream regardless. Thank you! [17:43:54] Great audio brendan_campbell! [17:43:57] what guillom said [17:44:07] the audio is better than yesterday morning imo [17:44:10] thank you, i'm pulling audio off the mixer in the back (hence the view) [17:44:29] * aude waves [17:44:36] hey aude. [17:45:08] this session is also being professionally recorded, so that will be available at a later date [17:45:36] and the camera is only on the speakers there :) [17:46:17] who is speaking? victoria? [17:46:45] YEs [17:46:50] ok [17:48:37] aude: You can see notes here: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/devsummit17-dev-and-product-q&a [17:48:54] Talking on the mailing list about long term plans would be a good start... [17:49:27] I could swear the street sweeper has gone past the venue more times in the last two days than is done in a year outside the office. [17:50:08] thanks [17:50:22] * aude sniffles with a cold [17:50:39] Does someone want to reword a question for me in a more intelligent manner than I am capable of this morning [17:50:47] * greg-g waves to aude [17:50:49] bawolff: that looks like a good comment for https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Product . [17:50:55] Seddon: sure [17:51:01] and notes, for sure, my flight to SF would have been cancelled if i had planned to come (evil snow!) [17:51:21] Elitre: honestly its probably too snide to be constructive :) [17:52:07] * legoktm clap clap [17:52:11] bawolff: I know that Wes really welcomes feedback about communications, so he won't mind a gentle reminder if you think they are not using mailing lists enough :) [17:52:23] greg-g: Basically something along the lines of, how do we use and work with the network of affiliates other than WMDE to broaden and diversify the MW technical community [17:52:34] Seddon: sure [17:52:39] broaden, diverisfy and decentralise* [17:53:02] Seddon: that looks clear enough to me. it's being asked now though. [17:53:23] share the love [17:53:25] share the work :) [17:53:25] I mean it seems like we should start with communicating at all before worrying about diversifying the medium [17:53:31] :) [17:53:55] * Seddon shows <3 to greg-g [17:54:55] bawolff: then I would love to know from you about specific occasions where WMF failed at this :) (not necessarily here and now!) [17:55:42] Please remind people to introduce themselves when they talk (I think this is C Scott?) because we can't see them [17:55:49] this is cscott [17:56:07] thanks for the reminder, Guillom [17:56:14] * guillom hugs Elitre. [17:57:16] Seddon: good enough? [17:57:21] bawolff: Can you give some examples of "long term plans" that exist but aren't shared on "the" (wikitech?) mailing list? :-) [17:58:05] thanks James_F for rephrasing my question :) (also, for actually sharing your plans on a list! and wikimedia-l nonetheless.) [17:58:11] James_F: i would guess the problem is that there are no long term plans [17:58:33] or if there are, nobody has shared them with me :) [17:58:42] bawolff: Indeed. It's not about venue or communicating, it's about being less focussed on daily stuff and more on the long-term. [17:59:04] yeah DJ!! [17:59:24] I guess what im trying to say is it seems premature to discuss diversifying communicating longterm plans [17:59:32] * James_F nods. [17:59:46] But "focussing on a roadmap" means blocking code that diverges away from the roadmap, which means it's going to alienate people who don't agree with the direction. [17:59:59] more hackathons! [18:00:02] perhaps [18:00:03] roadmaps are hard [18:00:04] +1 [18:00:22] but people cant focus on things that dont exist [18:00:29] Indeed. [18:00:34] I think some teams are doing great at long term thinking. I think Parsing for example is sharing a lot of what they want to do and ask a lot of feedback, even about prioritizing what they're gonna do. Their page on mw.org speaks a bit about that (in addition to their sessions to events, Phab tasks etc.) [18:00:40] greg-g: yep :) danke [18:00:52] More hackathons and events such as BotAcademy(WMSE) [18:00:55] Elitre: Good point. [18:00:59] Elitre: indeed there is a lot of variation between teams [18:01:11] Seddon: any time [18:01:21] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CBMW1tCU0AA_MOM.jpg [18:01:45] +1 to TheDJ [18:01:50] addshore: :) :) [18:02:43] thanks for the love, Cindy! [18:03:45] can i ask questions here? [18:03:49] aude: yes! [18:04:17] how does the architecture committee and RFC process fit in with the roadmap? what role do they have? [18:04:25] (if this hasn't been asked yet) [18:05:16] I don't see it among the most voted questions, no. [18:05:22] (i feel like the point of my question was missed, in that the final statement from victoria was about the foundation committing to support more community code) [18:05:24] aude: it was kiiinda asked yesterday during Daniel's "Platforms are Products too!" talk, but probably worth it again here [18:05:27] Anyone wants to ask it? [18:05:28] aude: want me to? [18:05:32] sure [18:05:33] As a volunteer, i would second what was said, but also point out that focusing on mediawiki is limiting the scope [18:05:44] aude: actually, which roadmap? [18:05:45] my point was that we need better support for community members/projects which *doesn't* involve hiring them or moving their code into production [18:05:51] greg-g: ok [18:06:04] mediawiki or wmf technical (if there is one) [18:06:07] kk [18:06:13] or quarterly goals [18:06:28] there's also the strategy process that katherine is leading [18:06:41] longer-term grants, perhaps, or dedicated support engineers. there should be some way we can support (for example) "enterprise mediawiki" or "semantic mediawiki" without moving their code into core. [18:06:44] there's also the Annual Plan... [18:06:50] yea, also annual plan [18:07:06] * aude also wonders if/how these things are coordinated [18:07:23] Looks like greg-g is the remoties' hero today. TY! [18:07:39] I work for all remoties :) [18:07:40] I dont know we should actually support smw [18:07:44] :) [18:07:56] beyond in how it interacts with core [18:07:59] e.g [18:08:04] aude, you will probably be asked to coordinate everything, since you asked about this :p [18:08:09] lol [18:08:25] If they want to upstream a change where it makes sense [18:08:36] Give things to do to chapters that don't have budget to hire someone to take care of communities, mmmmh. [18:08:51] who is asking the q right now? [18:08:51] Trizek: that doesn't work [18:08:57] that was chad [18:08:57] smw kind of does their own thing, though maybe that's a result of neglect [18:08:59] chad [18:09:01] but we shouldnt provide support for devs of every ext in the world [18:09:14] What?! Why not? [18:09:15] and not sure what they want, in terms of support [18:09:19] * legoktm hugs ostriches [18:09:21] matanya: that's exactly what I mean. [18:09:57] bravo ostriches [18:10:16] i was part of the FDC when wmde was working with wmf to get wikidata contract, if you make other orgs go through this, it will fail, for sure [18:10:28] bawolff: I think we should continue explicitly not supporting SMW. [18:11:33] (gabriel) [18:11:34] legoktm, Nemo_bis: You're welcome [18:12:44] What I keep hearing is that there are so many good stories that are worth telling to a wider world. (Which might also help with recruitment of new volunteers.) [18:13:00] matanya: It wasn't about "making" per se, it's about saying "We've got this project that the WMF doesn't have the resources for, can another org (chapter, thematic group, interested individuals applying for an IEG) take on the work?" [18:13:06] At least that's how I'd like to see it work :) [18:13:19] enabling :D [18:13:25] empowering? [18:13:32] ostriches: +1 [18:13:36] if we enable empowerment, we can leverage them [18:13:40] Enabling is a nice double-sided word. [18:13:40] bawolff: yeah, exactly. there should be a way we can *help* them without solving all their problems or upstreaming their code. [18:13:44] brion: something something synergy [18:13:47] :D [18:14:19] The independence also means we are UTTERLY SCREWED the moment something goes wrong. [18:14:35] Like we underestimate how long things will take, how much we need, etc etc... [18:14:38] Isarra: Ideally, things that get "outsourced" like that are self-contained, but useful [18:14:40] !hesaids(yner|trate)gy [18:14:41] (with regard to what hare is saying) [18:14:42] melodykramer +1 [18:15:05] bawolff: we don't really have a process for "you guys are doing good work and seem to have a large community, even though your product isn't aligned with our larger roadmap (which is moving in the wikidata direction)." [18:15:10] So yeah, we underestimated how long our development would take and now we're trying to finish everything even though we ran out of money months ago. Bloody demotivating. [18:15:11] 4 questions and 15 minutes left [18:15:29] ostriches: Well, yes. [18:15:37] Cscott: to what end though [18:15:46] Problem is, useful tools still often have some overall integration into everything else... [18:15:49] aude: smw doing their own thing is actually a strength, IMO. We need more communities who have the ability to accomplish their own goals, not depend on WMF to do things for them. [18:15:52] Like... they... agh. [18:16:03] i dont think anyone doubts smw is useful to some people and have large userbase [18:16:34] As long as nobody puts huge walls in the way of smw, they seem... fine. But that's just sort of considering general usage. Or whatever. [18:16:52] i guess i just dont know the smw devs or what they "want" from us [18:16:59] Isarra: Sure, integration, but not dependency on other teams. So like if Wikimedia Antarctica fails, it doesn't cause another group to fail as well [18:17:07] Oh, sure. [18:17:09] (btw, Wikimedia Antarctica should totally be a chapter :)) [18:17:11] Isarra: Is that short for Semantic MediaWiki? [18:17:21] Wikimedia Antarctica!! [18:17:23] bawolff: to continue to grow the non-WMF community. to have more users of our core codebase, more people familiar with the codebase, etc. some of those will contribute back to the core codebase, some may eventually move on to more WMF-aligned projects. [18:17:27] Smw=semantic mediawiki [18:17:29] rfarrand: sounds cold [18:17:32] bawolff: we need to have a "farm team", to use the baseball analogy. [18:17:43] We have more dependency than usual since our product is intended for wikimedia projects so it needs to go through security review at very least, but... eh. [18:17:48] * brion is baseball-illiterate [18:17:51] melodykramer: Yeah. [18:17:51] inb4 MediaWiki Farmers [18:17:54] lol [18:18:06] * anomie has a tendency to think SMW = Super Mario World [18:18:07] We should revive the farmers. [18:18:11] Snrk. [18:18:14] brion: "minor leagues". wait, that's also baseball. "NBA b-league"? What's the cricket version? [18:18:16] a farm team is a minor league team where your recruits practice and get experience and then are called up to the majors [18:18:21] cscott: that'll do :D [18:18:25] thx [18:18:58] idea is just that we need a community of folks doing stuff in the general vicinity of our codebase, without trying to force them all to align with the WMF roadmap. [18:18:59] That's how Code for America views it's fellows. They have a skillset, they're placed in a specific city for a year, and then they often take other roles within the digital gov ecosystem. [18:19:03] cscott: as it stands people switch from third party to wmf stuff [18:19:13] although it is rarer than it could be [18:19:32] bawolff: not everything should go in that direction [18:20:00] bawolff: right. and i'm arguing that one reason it is rare is that we don't have this large amorphous cloud of people doing interesting mediawiki things. [18:20:49] Matanya: i agree. People should do whatever interests them [18:21:08] cscott: Where can I see a list of projects that are taking place in the general vicinity of the codebase? I'd love to see what people are up to - not sure how. [18:21:23] cscott: so you want like a third party ext developer group that blogs a lot about what they do? [18:21:29] cscott: As opposed to having folks doing other things get randomly ploughed over? >.> [18:21:32] also, the WMF roadmap could be wrong? or poorly ordered. allowing folks to follow their own directions could end up in results which are ultimately more useful than rigid central planning. [18:21:36] Or would that still happen? [18:21:46] bawolff: yeah. [18:21:49] Isarra: yeah [18:21:59] one contact per developer :) [18:22:04] melodykramer: wikiapiry is probably a good place to start exploring other projects [18:22:27] smw easily meets my bar because they have grown to the point where they organize their own conferences & etc. they are obviously self-supporting and sustainable, even though not WMF-aligned. [18:22:42] brion: OCPD? [18:22:47] cscott: we could certainly use things like that and especially people writing tutorials [18:23:07] Have you seen this, bawolff https://whatcanidoformozilla.org/#!/progornoprog/proglang [18:23:11] i think some of the WMF support *might* include messaging about roadmap and trying to help 3rd parties find ways to align their codebases with WMF preferred direction [18:23:16] This is Moriel. [18:23:19] Our how to write an ext tutorial is pretty pathetic [18:23:32] but that should be helpful guidance, not coercion [18:23:39] + a million to moriel [18:23:51] Who is this? [18:23:52] docs docs docs [18:23:55] Moriel? [18:23:56] Isarra: moriel [18:23:59] aaah, Reedy is here! [18:24:12] now somebody's shouting out not sure who :D [18:24:15] The sad thing is our documentation is still soooo much better than anything else I've seen. [18:24:15] i don't actually know what the best way to support 3rd parties w/o absorbing them into WMF. but i want to encourage discussion in that direction. [18:24:19] EOM [18:24:23] Get people extra time to document, too! [18:24:24] yurik next [18:24:24] let's talk about documentation! ;) [18:24:27] They just need more time. [18:24:33] Sumana :( [18:24:33] bug 1! [18:24:38] They can document stuff as they go if they just aren't so ruched. [18:24:46] :'( [18:24:50] rushed [18:25:11] melodykramer: that site looks cool :P [18:25:24] brion: the shouting was Reedy ;) [18:25:28] why is mozilla using a hashbang url? thay should know better... [18:25:29] ah good :D [18:25:32] yuri's qn is one of the key questions i think [18:25:35] * cscott is an old man grumbling. [18:25:50] brion: addshore I don't disagree that we need to fix it. I just know it's not worked before, repeatedly [18:25:55] aude: was that good enough for you? [18:26:01] In the VE team we actually had a very good experience with a tech writer we hired, but only within certain parameters (document this library, its author will sit down with you for 10-20 hrs/wk to tell you about it and answer your questions) [18:26:02] the question, at least :) [18:26:12] I like victorias comment about inside vs outside [18:26:32] yeah, the oojs ui docs on mw.org were done by a tech writer hired specifically for it [18:26:36] That's how the oojs-ui class-level docs were written, with code samples that run live on the documentation dsite [18:26:37] Best question. [18:26:47] what did Reedy shout? [18:26:50] i think we need a tech writer specificly for introduvctory tutorials [18:26:52] legoktm: It doesn't work :P [18:26:54] YES. [18:26:56] I don't think Victoria really understood it [18:26:57] legoktm: "We tried that, it doesn't work". [18:27:02] Oh right and the mw.org pages too though I haven't read those [18:27:02] RoanKattouw: Yeah, that [18:27:06] to build new users [18:27:06] in response to "tech writer"? [18:27:09] Yup. [18:27:14] Autogenerated stuff from the code makes more sense [18:27:15] Get someone who is clueless to do tech writing. They can write as they learn. [18:27:18] Reedy: +1 [18:27:24] bawolff: "specificly for introduvctory tutorials" sounds good [18:27:30] Which, maybe someone releng/CI is the "fix" [18:27:36] If i knew how to spell [18:27:47] https://github.com/cfpb/readme_refresh_day the cfpb has a documentation refresh day. [18:27:49] i've heard mixed opinons about the mw.rg oojs ui docs, but most people thought they were very helpful [18:27:52] gerrit/ci doc is actually good [18:27:59] Our inline code comments are great [18:28:10] what did somebody just say off mic? [18:28:12] Yuri clarified that his question was about culture clash [18:28:13] addshore: I wrote a piece on how to write great tutorials for lay audiences: http://melodykramer.github.io/2015/03/04/how-to-write-a-great-tutorial [18:28:16] i think we've mostly managed to keep them up to date... except for th screenshots :P [18:28:20] ah, thanks halfak|Mobile [18:28:20] rfarrand: ^^^ [18:28:32] No problem. Knew someone would ask 😁 [18:28:40] docs > outdated docs > no docs [18:28:42] * addshore has generally heard people compain about all docs on mw.org and ask why we don't do docs better / have them next to the code (with example there etc) and have multiversion docs in an easy to use form [18:28:51] melodykramer: ++ good advice there [18:28:56] I'm not 100% sure I know what the lessons are from that, but I think they are probably at least 1) narrow scope is important and 2) you need to make a knowledgeable person's time available to them, and a lot at that [18:29:03] MatmaRex_mobile: i found it confusing to figure out all the options supported by a specific widget due to all the levels of subclassing [18:29:06] This is something I really enjoy writing. Happy to lead workshops or help out in this way. [18:29:21] addshore: if we had examples in the doc comments we could have multiversion docs built from source tree reliably [18:29:33] though embedding code examples in comments always feels weird [18:29:38] brion: maybe we should do that ;) [18:29:42] :D [18:29:48] Is there documentation outside of Wikimedia that you think is really spectacular? It would be interesting to list why they're good + what works. [18:29:51] brion: yeh, in comments can get very ugly, but in files in the repo at least ;) [18:29:59] Im happy victoria seems very pro outside devs [18:30:25] melodykramer: i know everybody hates it but honestly i love the php docs. :) [18:30:25] maybe we can follow this session up with written answers to the remaining questions or a tech talk later on [18:30:30] I will see what we can do [18:30:38] /docs/examples//example.md? ;) [18:30:38] it's well searchable, and the comments are sometimes quite helpful [18:30:55] meanwhile i hate hate hate apple's documentation for ios/macos ;) [18:31:00] 18:27 < Reedy> Which, maybe someone releng/CI is the "fix" [18:31:02] mainly because it's poorly linked [18:31:06] context? :) [18:31:08] and often very sparse [18:31:11] Thanks rfarrand. I think that's a good idea [18:31:16] This is a blog post from one of my former coworkers: https://jacobian.org/writing/great-documentation/ [18:31:38] I dislike our docs on mw.org and generally find out of date docs every time I look somethingup [18:32:01] greg-g: If the answer to docs is better autodocs, visibility of them etc... Rather than duping to mw.org It's gonna be relying on CI to get it published etc. Not saying your current team as is should be... It could be hire worthy [18:32:05] yeah keeping wiki docs in sync with source is hell [18:32:11] that's why i love doc comment generation [18:32:18] brion+1! [18:32:19] Reedy: ahhhhh, thanks :) [18:32:31] we should generate the mw docs on the $wgXXXX config variables from source somehow [18:32:38] Reedy: I just couldn't parse the backscroll effectively enough :) [18:32:38] of course anything that documents multi-class clusters can be harder that way [18:32:39] brion: cscott Reedy also +1 [18:32:48] the docs are great, but they are not in sync and there's nothing ensuring that new config vars get properly documented. [18:32:50] brion: I like this: http://opencomparison.readthedocs.io/en/latest/contributing.html and this: http://docs.fabfile.org/en/1.13/ [18:33:02] melodykramer: Let me find you a link but I quite like the beginner docs for Rust. I never ended up finding an excuse to program in it but I learned a lot about the language by reading the docs and liked the format. Specifically because it has examples like "if you write this reasonable-seeming code, it will be rejected for this somewhat-unintuitive reason [18:33:02] and here is why" [18:33:02] cscott: that should actually not be difficult, doc comments on the vars already exist. should be able to expand them and extract from there [18:33:03] Brion: we should make a third emmbed git into wikipage extension! [18:33:04] Can we do it from https://doc.wikimedia.org/mediawiki-core/master/php/ ? [18:33:13] :) [18:33:13] (The Rust compiler also gives you suggestions for fixes along with its error messages) [18:33:20] brion: yeah, but the existing mw docs are much larger than our current doc comments [18:33:20] That's really awesome RoanKattouw [18:33:23] greg-g: thanks :) [18:33:30] there might be a readability issue if DefaultSettings.php suddenly grows 3x [18:33:38] it's great to see this channel alive. [18:33:42] rust has a great community too, i hear they're good helping beginners [18:33:44] The problem --or one problem--isn't a lack of documentation. It's often too much, and conflicting, documentation of the same issue. People apparently don't like to kill others' pages, even when they are out of date or duplicative. So the thicket grows... [18:33:44] we might need to split up DefaultSettings.php into multiple files or somesuch to keep it manageable. [18:33:52] rfc is a way for people to participate [18:33:59] Also if you're super into documentation, I recommend this community: http://www.writethedocs.org/slack/ [18:34:02] jmatazzoni______: too much and conflicting...+1 to that [18:34:07] jmatazzoni______: yes, we'll need to prune the old pages :) [18:34:17] Being able to see what is relevant + what is current is key. [18:34:25] nothing worse than out of date docs [18:34:27] DELETE, we need to delete more [18:34:32]