[10:35:57] [telegram] OK, it's a bit weird. Wikimedia Germany wants to do a big project to improve working templates, and it's generally a good thing. The page about it is https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WMDE_Technical_Wishes/Templates . Every couple of weeks they publish a new idea there and they ask for feedback. I wrote several pieces of feedback there—some supportive and some critical. [10:37:10] [telegram] And almost no one else writes there. It's not great, because generally, technical projects benefit from more feedback at the early stages. Also, some of my feedback there is skeptical about the proposals, but I really don't want to be That Guy Who Ruins Everything. [10:37:42] [telegram] So it would be really nice if more people respond there on the talk page! Feel free to disagree with me of course. [10:39:21] [telegram] Is this about making it easier to use template or easier to build templates? (or both?) [10:39:41] [telegram] Both, I'd say. Mostly to use, but also a bit about building. [10:40:06] [telegram] Best if you just read it :) [10:40:07] [telegram] It looks longish, but not hard to understand at all. [10:40:20] [telegram] Yup, case of tl;dr [10:47:57] [telegram] In my experience initiatives like this one run better if you have one or more "senior users" (concept originally from Prince2 project management) [10:54:53] [telegram] What would be an example, if you don't mind? :) (re @Maarten: In my experience initiatives like this one run better if you have one or more "senior users" (concept originally from Prince2 project management)) [11:14:03] [telegram] So the basic premise is that you want to have user feedback when building some new product or feature. [11:14:04] [telegram] Just asking all users usually gives inconsistent feedback. Sometimes you get a lot of responses, sometimes nothing at all and you might get conflicting responses. In the role of senior user you have to invest some time and effort, but in return you can influence the direction. [11:14:05] [telegram] For example when building the campaigns extension for the upload wizard I took on the role because it was first build for Wiki Loves Monuments. So when the developer building it had questions about what to do, he would contact me and I would provide (quick) feedback. [11:15:18] [telegram] Key user group? (re @Maarten: In my experience initiatives like this one run better if you have one or more "senior users" (concept originally from Prince2 project management)) [11:15:43] [telegram] Very similar yes. Like what big companies do with user groups. [11:38:05] [telegram] Well, the “main page” for feedback regarding these proposals afaik is the one on German-language WP (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Technische_Wünsche/Topwünsche/Leichter_mit_Vorlagen_arbeiten); there we have given a lot of feedback (not many users, but it’s some of the most active when it comes to templates, including me) [11:39:02] [telegram] Well, was there a way for people to learn about it? Other than you messages here (or where was the previous one) (re @amire80: And almost no one else writes there. It's not great, because generally, technical projects benefit from more feedback at the early stages. Also, some of my feedback there is skeptical about the proposals, but I really don't want to be That Guy Who Ruins Everything.) [11:40:04] [telegram] On German WP there is a banner campaign going on about the proposals, not sure if they did that on other projects too 🤔 [11:40:48] [telegram] /me is de-0 and does not usually visit dewiki [11:40:49] [telegram] There was at least one notification on one of the big mailing lists, Wikimedia-L or Wikitech-L. (re @Thecladis: Well, was there a way for people to learn about it? Other than you messages here (or where was the previous one)) [11:41:11] [telegram] I see, the lists after all. Perhaps I should start reading them. One day. [11:43:00] [telegram] Hm. I don't think I saw this in other languages, and I look at a lot of wikis. I totally get the special relationship that WMDE has in practice with the German Wikipedia, but I'm not sure it's totally right to run the banners only in the German Wikipedia. Or that it's right to run banners about this project in general. A notification on technical village pumps is probably the best thing. (re @silente08: On German WP [11:44:02] [telegram] The really best thing, not just for this, but for a lot of other things, would be to have a cross-wiki group of template and module developers. Maybe I'll end up creating it?.. [11:44:20] [telegram] Another user group! 😉 [11:45:51] [telegram] By "group" I mean "probably a mailing list or a Telegram group". An official Wikimedia user group could be a good thing, too, but organizing of this kind is really not for me. If someone else does it, it may end up being a good thing. [11:51:05] [telegram] There is already mostly dead tools develiper UG, I would be pro extending its scope instead (re @amire80: The really best thing, not just for this, but for a lot of other things, would be to have a cross-wiki group of template and module developers. Maybe I'll end up creating it?..) [11:51:26] [telegram] There is already mostly dead tools developer UG, I would be pro extending its scope instead (re @amire80: The really best thing, not just for this, but for a lot of other things, would be to have a cross-wiki group of template and module developers. Maybe I'll end up creating it?..) [11:51:35] [telegram] Do you have a link? (Although tools are really not the same as templates and modules.) (re @Thecladis: There is already mostly dead tools developer UG, I would be pro extending its scope instead) [11:52:08] [telegram] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Tool_Developers_Group [11:53:04] [telegram] Thanks! (re @Thecladis: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Tool_Developers_Group) [11:53:12] [telegram] They are not, but sometimes they are. Tools are more a counterpart of user scripts and gadgets, but sometimes actually even templates are solving not what they should be [12:12:51] [telegram] Yeah, the Technical Wishes started from initiatives on dewiki, so the team responds mainly to that community. There are also announcements on the major project pages and even on user talk pages. Nonetheless, the international feedback page should obviously be promoted as well, since the technical solutions should be useful for all projects in the end. (re @amire80: Hm. I don't think I saw this in other languages, a [12:14:11] [telegram] A “Tool and Template Developer User Group” would make sense to me, especially if at some point in the future we will be dealing with global templates [12:14:36] [telegram] 👍 (re @silente08: A “Tool and Template Developer User Group” would make sense to me, especially if at some point in the future we will be dealing with global templates) [14:58:50] [telegram] How can I retrieve all the pages that comes under the namespace Mediawiki? [14:59:19] [telegram] How can I retrieve all the pages that comes under the namespace Mediawiki? This needs to be done in enwiki [14:59:37] [telegram] I think Special:PrefixIndex showed that in the UI (re @Adithya: How can I retrieve all the pages that comes under the namespace Mediawiki? This needs to be done in enwiki) [15:00:38] [telegram] Thanks [15:18:46] [telegram] of Special:AllPages with a namespace filter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:AllPages?namespace=8 (re @Adithya: How can I retrieve all the pages that comes under the namespace Mediawiki? This needs to be done in enwiki) [15:44:21] [telegram] When it comes to usergroups, I would really like to see some general technical community usergroup targeted at helping each other to get into it. Those things are interconnected. For example writing a cool template now requires on the one hand advanced Lua knowledge, which is a prototyping based language just as JavaScript is, on the other hand some CSS knowledge. And what is the main scope of JS and CSS in our pro [15:44:32] [telegram] It would be good to have this all somehow interconnected community wise and it would be great to have some mentoring hub. For example every now and then I do something that lies at different part of this spectrum. Sometimes I hack a JS script for myself, sometimes I need to fix some broken CSS, sometimes I am attempting to write a tool and lately I am looking for some easy tasks I can finally venture into MW develo [15:44:32] [telegram] I wish it was more concentrated with a clearer pool of people who are ready to answer one stupid question after another, do cross-CR of some tools or bots and so forth though. [15:44:38] [telegram] When it comes to usergroups, I would really like to see some general technical community usergroup targeted at helping each other to get into it. Those things are interconnected. [15:44:47] [telegram] For example writing a cool template now requires on the one hand advanced Lua knowledge, which is a prototyping based language just as JavaScript is, on the other hand some CSS knowledge. And what is the main scope of JS and CSS in our projects? Right, it is userscripts and gadgets. But then. It can also be a NodeJS tool, or just a frontend to a tool. Or in fact to an extension, stuff like RevisionSlider or UploadW [15:44:58] [telegram] It would be good to have this all somehow interconnected community wise and it would be great to have some mentoring hub. For example every now and then I do something that lies at different part of this spectrum. Sometimes I hack a JS script for myself, sometimes I need to fix some broken CSS, sometimes I am attempting to write a tool and lately I am looking for some easy tasks I can finally venture into MW develo [15:45:01] [telegram] I wish it was more concentrated with a clearer pool of people who are ready to answer one stupid question after another, do cross-CR of some tools or bots and so forth though. [15:45:23] [telegram] + (re @Thecladis: When it comes to usergroups, I would really like to see some general technical community usergroup targeted at helping each other to get into it. Those things are interconnected. [15:45:32] [telegram] For example writing a cool template now requires on the one hand advanced Lua knowledge, which is a prototyping based language just as JavaScript is, on the other hand some CSS knowledge. And what is the main scope of JS and CSS in our projects? Right, it is userscripts and gadgets. But then. It can also be a NodeJS tool, or just a frontend to a tool. Or in fact to an extension, stuff like RevisionSlider or UploadWiz [15:45:43] [telegram] It would be good to have this all somehow interconnected community wise and it would be great to have some mentoring hub. For example every now and then I do something that lies at different part of this spectrum. Sometimes I hack a JS script for myself, sometimes I need to fix some broken CSS, sometimes I am attempting to write a tool and lately I am looking for some easy tasks I can finally venture into MW developm [15:45:43] [telegram] I wish it was more concentrated with a clearer pool of people who are ready to answer one stupid question after another, do cross-CR of some tools or bots and so forth though.)