[00:02:19] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Does anyone know when was #time invented? I am looking at this template, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Ordinal_date , originally at its ukwiki clone to be precise, and it uses some esoteric magic to do what looks like what {{#time:z}} would do (in parametless case, and a bit more complex syntax to accomodate for parameters would). The template is from 2006. It does use #expr
[00:03:13] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> So either I misread the template's purpose, or it pre-dates #time. OR it was consciously avoided for some possible performance issues back in the days
[00:03:41] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> here's funny thing about it too : https://tools-static.wmflabs.org/bridgebot/9a19f4c2/image_2020_07_20_03_03_38.png
[00:06:28] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> #time was part of the first iteration of the documentation for parserfunctions ([[mw:Extension:ParserFunctions]]) back in 2008, so #time is older than that
[00:06:58] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Yeah there I did look
[00:07:00] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> but that template was created in 2006, and I'm pretty sure we didn't have #time back then (or any other parser functions for that matter)
[00:07:19] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Was #expr in the core at that time?
[00:07:30] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> no
[00:07:51] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <tehreedy> At least pre 2007
[00:08:07] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <tehreedy> https://github.com/wikimedia/mediawiki-extensions-ParserFunctions/commit/8ad5a5a09f0b69193d4b3a28d1b8c820455d2727
[00:08:09] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> it never was. we didn't have it at all. there were extremely esoteric templates that did something like what it does in hacky ways
[00:08:15] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> then it doesn't add up, since expr is used in it (re @jhsoby: no)
[00:08:57] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <tehreedy> August 2006, Tim added it
[00:09:00] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Ordinal_date&diff=49829878&oldid=48432265
[00:09:16] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <tehreedy> https://github.com/wikimedia/mediawiki-extensions-ParserFunctions/commit/f1eac24da76b55b5ccf6ec65e9957b0e688b6387
[00:11:57] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Last additions to the template were in November, but it is pretty much possible that Verdy p was not aware of the new parser function. A nice bit of history. Used on ukwiki main page…
[00:12:08] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <tehreedy> "new" parser function
[00:12:12] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> haha
[00:12:18] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <tehreedy> It's been around longer than most Wikimedians :P
[00:12:49] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> I still think of them as "new" some times 😂 (re @tehreedy: "new" parser function)
[00:12:57] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> I was about to start my 6th grade and was clearly not a wikimedian  back then :)
[00:12:59] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> basically everything that wasn't there when i started is new in my mind 😜
[00:13:28] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> 🦖 (re @jhsoby: basically everything that wasn't there when i started is new in my mind 😜)
[00:13:57] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <tehreedy> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAuth/Verdy_p
[00:14:08] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <tehreedy> It's been around longer than Verdy p :P
[00:14:14] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> no
[00:14:22] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <tehreedy> He arrived just under 2 years later
[00:14:24] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> longer than CentralAuth
[00:14:35] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> SUL I mean
[00:14:44] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> @Thecladis you want to know how we hid empty infobox rows back in the day?
[00:15:17] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> That is indeed curious to learn :) (re @jhsoby: @Thecladis you want to know how we hid empty infobox rows back in the day?)
[00:15:29] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> /me feels like in a museum
[00:15:56] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> <tr class{{{param|}}}="hiddenStructure">
[00:16:11] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> .hiddenStructure { display: none }
[00:16:36] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> if a parameter was non-empty, it would create invalid HTML, which was stripped by the parser, so that the class wouldn't get applied
[00:16:44] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <tehreedy> Hmm. They registered for enwiki April 2006... commonswiki is marked as null
[00:17:15] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> (change visibility) 17:02, 22 April 2006 diff hist +3,555‎ Nm Template:JULIANDAY ‎ 
[00:17:15] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Hm, that is first Verdy p's edit in enwiki. An interesting start for sure
[00:17:32] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> :D (re @jhsoby: if a parameter was non-empty, it would create invalid HTML, which was stripped by the parser, so that the class wouldn't get applied)
[00:18:07] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> That's some smart trick :)
[00:18:16] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Lemmi check one thing
[00:20:06] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> https://uk.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?sort=relevance&search=insource%3A+hiddenStructure&title=Спеціальна%3AПошук&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&advancedSearch-current={}&ns10=1 while original trick seems to be gone it's memory still lives :)
[00:20:26] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> yay technical debt 😜 (re @Thecladis: https://uk.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?sort=relevance&search=insource%3A+hiddenStructure&title=Спеціальна%3AПошук&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&advancedSearch-current={}&ns10=1 while original trick seems to be gone it's memory still lives :))
[00:20:31] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> That is kinda how proto languages get reconstructed by some remnant pieces xD
[00:20:43] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> hahaha
[00:23:24] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> https://uk.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?sort=relevance&search=insource%3A+hiddenStructure&title=Спеціальна%3AПошук&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&advancedSearch-current={}&ns10=1 while original trick seems to be gone its memory still lives :)
[00:24:51] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> `
[00:24:51] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> (change visibility) 12:09, 12 March 2004 diff hist +680‎ m Wikipédia:Rapport d'erreurs/Archives 3 ‎`
[00:24:52] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> in frwiki (re @Thecladis: (change visibility) 17:02, 22 April 2006 diff hist +3,555‎ Nm Template:JULIANDAY ‎ 
[00:24:54] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Hm, that is first Verdy p's edit in enwiki. An interesting start for sure)
[00:25:03] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> (change visibility) 12:09, 12 March 2004 diff hist +680‎ m Wikipédia:Rapport d'erreurs/Archives 3 ‎
[00:25:03] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> in frwiki (re @Thecladis: (change visibility) 17:02, 22 April 2006 diff hist +3,555‎ Nm Template:JULIANDAY ‎ 
[00:25:04] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Hm, that is first Verdy p's edit in enwiki. An interesting start for sure)
[02:05:05] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> So based on that I've been apparently on irc longer than you've been alive? 😂 (re @Thecladis: I was about to start my 6th grade and was clearly not a wikimedian  back then :))
[02:05:56] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> I was born in MCMXCV :)
[02:06:22] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> Than yeah definitely
[02:06:31] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> Then yeah definitely 😁
[02:06:37] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> ☺️
[02:08:17] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> I'd already been married for 2 years by the time you were born. To someone I met on irc ;D
[02:08:28] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> now that's cool xD
[02:08:51] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> I'd rather have IRC, than waste my time on Tinder :P
[02:09:44] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> (Well, I do have IRC, but hardly where you will meet someone nowadays :) )
[02:09:54] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> Never been on Tinder, so I can't really compare the two. Irc was good for getting to know someone slowly over time though.
[02:10:07] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> Just old farts 😂 (re @Thecladis: (Well, I do have IRC, but hardly where you will meet someone nowadays :) ))
[02:11:34] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Well, to be perfectly fair there are people I got to know from IRC, at least one of them I consider to be my friend, but none of them qualify to be potential partners :)
[02:11:40] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> One of my ex's and my fav moments was when one of our kids started explaining to us like idiots that we have no idea what it's like to meet someone online. Not sure how we kept a straight face.
[02:12:26] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> Never say never 😁 (re @Thecladis: Well, to be perfectly fair there are people I got to know from IRC, at least one of them I consider to be my friend, but none of them qualify to be potential partners :))
[02:12:29] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> :D
[02:12:48] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> ROFL (re @WMYupik: One of my ex's and my fav moments was when one of our kids started explaining to us like idiots that we have no idea what it's like to meet someone online. Not sure how we kept a straight face.)
[02:16:00] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> But if not for me becoming a WIkimedian I am not sure I would actually learn about IRC at all :( Well, maybe a bit later. I did spend a short while on an anime sub group's IRC where you could download some pirate copies of an anime, and then I did stumble upon some tech products' IRCs in the last couple of years just to face the reality that no one is there anymore and you have to reach the communities in Slack or 
[02:17:01] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> I'd love to take a glance at the internet of the 90s :)
[02:17:12] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> Yeah, I don't like the ubiquitous move from irc to slack :(
[02:18:10] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> Gotta split it up into early, mid and late 90s. Once it blew up, the whole internet changed quickly.
[02:18:34] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> Early 90s people pretty much knew everyone else 😂
[02:20:21] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> It was also superweird. For instance when the Soviet Union fell, there was someone on irc in Moscow telling us what was going on. The local news station was in our dorm room filming the screen because it was the only way they cpuld get info about it 😂
[02:20:26] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> It was also only from either MW documentation or configuration that a few years back I have learned that such a thing as gopher even existed. Before that point I was not aware of any major at some point alternatives to http
[02:20:28] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> It was also superweird. For instance when the Soviet Union fell, there was someone on irc in Moscow telling us what was going on. The local news station was in our dorm room filming the screen because it was the only way they could get info about it 😂
[02:20:58] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> Gopher. Haven't thought about that one in ages :O
[02:21:40] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Just wow. (re @WMYupik: It was also superweird. For instance when the Soviet Union fell, there was someone on irc in Moscow telling us what was going on. The local news station was in our dorm room filming the screen because it was the only way they could get info about it 😂)
[02:23:28] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> There used to be an irc log floating around the Internet from that period too where you can see what was going on. Might be all in Finnish though; can't remember.
[02:24:14] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> It is fascinating for me how there actually even was internet in the USSR, which I sorta always knew about because .su domain is still kinda fancy alternative to .ru you can buy, though haven't seen it as much as in late 2000s (I am not using Russian segment of the internet as much nowadays too though), but which is something that does not completely settle in my head to this day
[02:24:37] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> haha (re @WMYupik: There used to be an irc log floating around the Internet from that period too where you can see what was going on. Might be all in Finnish though; can't remember.)
[02:25:57] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> Did you know thefe used to be an active AppleTalk network between Alaska and the Soviet Union? Particularly the area around Provideniya and Nome :D
[02:26:00] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Damn, I often feel like a dinosaur for still having been an active user of ICQ, but to hear about IRC of those years back is a whole different level :)
[02:26:28] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> I certainly didn't :) (re @WMYupik: Did you know thefe used to be an active AppleTalk network between Alaska and the Soviet Union? Particularly the area around Provideniya and Nome :D)
[02:26:59] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> Not sure many people do :D
[02:27:46] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> Figure the Soviet Union didn't or it would've been shut down swiftly.
[02:27:58] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> I bet
[02:28:47] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> I should try to find my pics of Provideniya School's computer classroom and upload them.
[02:28:54] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> I should try to find my pics of Provideniya School's computer classroom and upload them to Commons.
[02:29:05] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Yes!
[02:30:51] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> They even had an Apple because some user group in Alaska had modded it and donated it to them.
[02:31:05] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> The rest were standard Soviet computers.
[02:51:34] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> That's interesting how it was let in. I guess customs officers did not get what it is or something
[07:22:00] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <WMYupik> Probably "or something" :D
[07:29:45] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> :D
[10:11:57] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <amire80> I'm moving Template:== to Template:= on the Hebrew Wikisource.
[10:12:01] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <amire80> One of the templates that used {{==}} is https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%AA:%D7%9C%D7%A2%D7%96 (you can call it Laaz in English). I changed it to use {{=}}.
[10:12:05] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <amire80> However, it appears as if it still transcludes {{==}}. It appears on Special:WhatLinksHere, and on page information: https://he.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%AA:%D7%9C%D7%A2%D7%96&action=info&uselang=en . See the "Transcluded templates" part: it says that it includes "==", even though {{==}} no longer appears in the source.
[10:12:08] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <amire80> Either I did something wrong with redirects, or it is stuck somewhere in caching, or FlaggedRevisions is to blame, or maybe some other weird thing is happening.
[10:12:10] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <amire80> Any ideas?
[10:29:03] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> I would say FlaggedRevs. Because when I edit the page and preview, the list of templates used in the preview does not include {{==}}, only {{=}} (re @amire80: I'm moving Template:== to Template:= on the Hebrew Wikisource.
[10:29:05] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> One of the templates that used {{==}} is לעז (you can call it Laaz in English). I changed it to use {{=}}.
[10:29:10] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> However, it appears as if it still transcludes {{==}}. It appears on Special:WhatLinksHere, and on page information: https://he.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%AA:%D7%9C%D7%A2%D7%96&action=info&uselang=en . See the "Transcluded templates" part: it says that it includes "==", even though {{==}} no longer appears in the source.
[10:29:13] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> Either I did something wrong with redirects, or it is stuck somewhere in caching, or FlaggedRevisions is to blame, or maybe some other weird thing is happening.
[10:29:14] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> Any ideas?)
[10:29:52] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <amire80> That's what I suspect, too, but how do I get over it?
[10:30:44] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <amire80> I tried approving the template page, the redirect from the old name, and some pages that use the template, and {{==}} still appears to be transcluded.
[10:32:27] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> I've (luckily) never had to deal with FlaggedRevs, so not sure. But I guess there are plenty of German Wikipedians who have encountered this kind of issue in the past
[10:33:12] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <edoderoo> isn't it simply the lag on the server. If can sometimes take hours before a template-change gets worked out through all items
[10:33:57] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <edoderoo> doing a null-edit on one of the 'what links here"-pages can force the update for that page ... if it then disappears form what-links-here, it is just a matter of time
[10:34:02] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> I just tried a null edit on the page you linked, @amire80 , and now it seems to be gone
[10:34:17] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <amire80> WAT
[10:34:20] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> I just tried a null edit on the page you linked, @amire80 , and now it seems to be gone (from action=info)
[10:35:12] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <amire80> I did like fifteen null edits there and it didn't help.
[10:35:22] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> 😂
[10:37:04] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <edoderoo> all NULL edits are equal ... but some NULL edits ....
[10:37:53] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> 🎶 When your null edits
[10:37:53] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> 🎶 Don't seem to work at all
[10:37:55] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> 🎶 Who you gonna call?
[10:38:13] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <edoderoo> I wrote a script to do null edits for a certain template, to solve the (sometimes long) lists of disambiguation links ... helped me several times ....
[12:39:42] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <andreklapper> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Small_wiki_toolkits ? (re @Thecladis: When it comes to usergroups, I would really like to see some general technical community usergroup targeted at helping each other to get into it. Those things are interconnected.
[12:39:43] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <andreklapper> For example writing a cool template now requires on the one hand advanced Lua knowledge, which is a prototyping based language just as JavaScript is, on the other hand some CSS knowledge. And what is the main scope of JS and CSS in our projects? Right, it is userscripts and gadgets. But then. It can also be a NodeJS tool, or just a frontend to a tool. Or in fact to an extension, stuff like RevisionSlider or Uplo
[12:39:55] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <andreklapper> It would be good to have this all somehow interconnected community wise and it would be great to have some mentoring hub. For example every now and then I do something that lies at different part of this spectrum. Sometimes I hack a JS script for myself, sometimes I need to fix some broken CSS, sometimes I am attempting to write a tool and lately I am looking for some easy tasks I can finally venture into MW dev
[12:39:59] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <andreklapper> I wish it was more concentrated with a clearer pool of people who are ready to answer one stupid question after another, do cross-CR of some tools or bots and so forth though.)
[15:05:25] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Hm.
[15:05:26] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Being confused by its name I never really checked it (not because I am not interested, I in fact am, being an admin on a couple of small wikis and such, but simply because it was somewhere down the backlog).
[15:05:27] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> So I did not know it is actually not necessarily about small wikis, such as deploying your own tools is not necessarily or rather clearly not a small wiki necessity (though there are exceptions to that). 
[15:05:34] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> This does intersect with what I describe, but I am not sure it covers all of that. It seems to be a good documentation to reference the different bits of the technical spectrum, but I am not sure how much it is actually a community. As in do I actually annoy the people listed with questions, or they are signed up to show that they are interested to write documentation?
[15:05:38] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> What I want is something more dynamic, with actual people interacting, though documentation base is a good ground for that to happen, RTFM after all is never out of question. I want to see a community, rather than a set of pages. (re @andreklapper: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Small_wiki_toolkits ?)
[19:13:30] <wm-bridgebot>	 [telegram] <Srishti> Hello folks! You can now use and promote this Starter kit in your wiki community, and start translating its landing page and subpages in a language you want: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Small_wiki_toolkits/Starter_kit. It lists resources, tools, and recommendations in technical areas relevant to smaller wikis that are just getting started. See the complete announcement here: https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/