[00:10:08] Is Miraheze canon to Deltarune? [00:14:43] Hard to tell, we'll have to get Kris to search for Miraheze once Hometown's internet is back [01:45:22] notaracham is gaster 100% real confirmed?!?!?!? [01:47:08] Holgy shit can't believe it was right under our noses the whole time [02:13:26] does he have anything to say about this newfounded discovery [03:09:38] I know all of your mercy run numbers, and I'm not judging, I'm just disappointed. 🙃 [03:25:48] [1/2] I know, I'm a baby for only having a non-pasifist run once 😔 /silly [03:25:49] [2/2] (I didn't even finish that genocide run bc I got mad at the sans fight and deleted the save XD) [03:32:43] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1503963174272237589/image0.gif?ex=6a05425b&is=6a03f0db&hm=f910ac4c7f07c24c0ecd0e983b6e3f4af3047fd3fa6cc000e7f0805c6aff4a52& [03:33:03] S'all good, thank you for playing [03:35:29] Hehehe, you're welcome [03:40:18] There's a pacifist route? [06:37:54] you monster [07:10:26] [1/2] https://youtu.be/1jhRqgHxEP8?si=QMSaWPewOc4DfdMJ [07:10:26] [2/2] 👀 not everyone can do this [07:10:40] Glad we have Louis 🔥 [09:53:42] https://old.reddit.com/r/Piracy/comments/1tax1z9/tetris_now_requires_a_subscription_paying_30month/ [10:28:26] i use this exact phone almost daily lol [10:28:52] theres a bunch of games and they r all "5 free plays" with payment required after [10:29:07] although u can hard reset the phone and ur free plays get returned [10:51:37] I wasn't born at the Windows 7 era, but god damn it looks so ugly [10:54:50] windows has been downhill since 7 !! [10:55:41] Personally the OS shouldn't look too bloated, I like minimalism in certain places [11:15:35] rossmann is a hero imo [11:15:41] if I could I absolutely would [11:16:22] meh, I like 7 [11:16:27] liked vista aesthetic more [11:16:54] xp was rather toyish, there's an alternative skin built in that reduces this but I kind of liked the 9x look better, and have always had a soft spot for a 9x dark type theme [11:18:14] in practice I didn't even care about all that until 10/getting into linux desktops more seriously where matters of style started to bother me more despite a lot of my gripes there mirroring on windows with its 3-4 contradicting generations of style depending on what you're doing in the os, you can find straight up win7 bits in there [11:18:18] Absolutely, at least there is still some good in this world [11:19:48] I mean I saw seven and yeah it looks pretty nice, looks human before microslop changed it [11:20:12] I never used seven much though since it was swapped a few years later when I was young [11:21:38] I used it till around 2022ish [11:21:46] though I didn't really mainline it after 2020 [11:22:26] these days I have no further use for it but could reach for it if going for a retro setup [12:07:35] 7 looks too visually bloated to me, IMO [12:07:45] What 11 did right was look minimal [12:07:56] Zorin OS looks minimal too, and I like that [12:07:59] I will say I actually like windows 11's basic aesthetic a lot [12:08:17] it comes with unacceptably bloated backends and apps I revert to older versions because they're just built better [12:08:27] but if I had the older app core and the new look I'd generally be pretty happy [12:08:54] Zorin OS kind of does that? [12:09:07] Zorin OS is about as modern as it gets [12:09:10] zorin is a well painted ubuntu [12:09:32] I'm excited to try it soon, sounds promising [12:09:47] the thing I don't like is that its gnome and I hate how gnome feels, how gnome as an org acts, and would rather support an inferior look and feel composition than support them [12:09:56] gnome for the prettiest zorin I should say [12:10:06] Websites can look as loud visually speaking they can get, but in terms of OS that's a no no for me [12:10:17] I don't like noisy websites either tbh [12:10:27] Examples? [12:10:37] gestures vaguely at the modern internet [12:10:52] What Vector 2022 did right was, well, not look so noisy, but rather minimal [12:10:59] Like, YouTube? Discord? [12:11:04] if it was all https://perfectmotherfuckingwebsite.com/ with tweaks I'd be game [12:11:21] youtube < invidious ui [12:12:05] discord, I actually don't mind the layout much. it feels rather heavy and I don't like that part but the broad design and stripping out some crap which is usually at least well baked in, I don't mind [12:13:05] mediawiki skin wise I actually prefer monobook out of pretty much everything at the moment [12:13:42] I've come to a setup where I have a browser-enforced dark configuration with the entire farm on safe mode monobook and have come to find that is the most consistent and usable configuration for me [12:14:28] does it have a few glitches sure but I no longer have to worry where to find certain buttons that many wikis like to shuffle or that different skins bury under menus or whatever [12:15:01] if I want to know what a wiki actually looks like I'll spin up something more conventional [12:17:00] [1/2] I'm also a bit of a puritan architecturally because I use browser settings where I opt into things on a per domain basis, for example I can tell you discord is pulling assets in from discord.com, discord.gg, discordapp.net, and discordapp.com, and these all do vaguely different things which strikes me as a mess for not much good reason. I like it when a website is just itself and may [12:17:01] [2/2] be I'll accept a user content cdn and a general cdn. Sites that like to run 5 different CDNs, fontawesome, jsdelivr gross me out a bit [12:17:45] another thing discord includes is sentry. Now with ublock origin its already defanged but with my setup it just never connects in the first place, which is also why I like discord in a browser where I control the environment, rather than the app where it still loads a browser and it has much more system access [12:18:50] also uploading files contacts google storage api [12:58:16] What do you think of Refreshed? Do you believe it's bloated, or minimal? [13:00:09] What do you consider as a "bloated visual interface"? [13:02:29] refreshed is very straightforward actually [13:02:50] evelution is the one that I'd say was a worst offender we had for a while but I'm not sure we still do [13:03:41] Elaborate? [13:03:58] this one wins the grand prize for messy skin https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/SkinEvelution_new.png [13:04:32] Not even Fandom is messy to that level [13:05:01] refreshed: simple button layout, sidebar makes sense, loads fast, is fast, good use of space [13:05:14] evelution; what even are all these bars [13:05:22] They also have fixed navigation too!! [13:05:23] Like, the top bar [13:05:38] It lets you add dropdowns, and I LOVE that [13:05:39] fandom is definitely better than this though it would fail completely if I allowed ads to run because they are the greatest offenders of all on any web page [13:06:20] slap everything in one place [13:06:44] So much usefulness because most readers will only check the sidebar, whilst editors will look for wiki policies and stuff on the dropdowns, usually [13:06:55] I think the only ads I could really accept are simple images with low flash and/or text that kind of blend in and strictly focus on the model of hey here's a relevant thing we explicitly work with a related entity to link here, which eliminates the window for literal scams and malware on a site with some trust [13:07:16] that's not the modern internet business model but its basically the only ad model where I would not advocate at minimum ublock origin on standard settings for all browsing [13:08:06] Ads would work much better if they actually were related to the article they were in [13:08:11] any site that has a structure where there is more than one download button for a single desired download automatically fails [13:08:19] this is a more classic advertising model [13:08:42] until it was realized you make big money and get big data by making live auctions for every ad spot that a user is exposed to on a page [13:08:58] and then stalk people across the internet for more data to do this [13:09:09] Vivaldi's UI is quite bloated, but for a good reason because you can customise it to your liking [13:09:20] if you can customize it away then whatever [13:09:41] You can actually, I'm in love with the browser!!! [13:09:47] I personally don't have much use for most things it spends its time developing, some of it being things I do not want browsers to do, so it just doesn't appeal to me [13:10:00] I could nitpick how it kinda hangs on older lts for updates but I am not one to talk on that subject [13:11:31] realistically all I want from a browser is to browse, to control what is rendered and how (but also able to render at modern capability), and some simple extra ux like customizing the ui a bit and extension capabilities to add stuff like translate or whatever people like [13:12:15] vivaldi's blocking capabilities are behind the curve last I checked and for that reason its just not really in the game for me [13:12:25] vivaldi chromium or no? [13:12:29] yes [13:12:43] What is your opinion on Citizen? I remember on April of 2025 the skin was still v resource hungry and would just lag on my 4GB phone, could be better since then but I've alr upgraded my phone (now it has NFC) [13:12:54] I don't dislike citizen but it is super heavy, far heavier than I like [13:13:05] lag fest plus new updates SUCK [13:13:09] its a little less critically dependent on js stuff to load than you'd think which I kind of like [13:13:45] I vetoed it on Vocaloid Lyrics Wiki for this v reason‼️ [13:14:13] i also vetoed it off deadlock wiki for those reasons [13:14:17] its the sort of thing I get why people like it and would support it as an option but am increasingly less interested in it being the default choice and definitely would not want it to be the only option [13:16:52] What do you think of Vector 2022? [13:18:01] bad [13:18:13] I think it looks nice but I have little nitpicks (like the TOC disappearing if you scroll down) that have me prefer other skins [13:18:28] It's alright, it's a good starting skin though lol [13:18:47] I like having the options to have more than just a light and dark theme tho [13:19:09] I like Vector 2022 enough that I CSS'd into a pretty skin. I only care about light and dark themes [13:19:58] to me if a site doesn't have @media prefers dark/prefers light rules nowadays I find it annoying [13:20:44] MY CSS is deisgned to work withVector 2022's built in system# [13:20:56] do any other themes have that other than vector? [13:21:06] citizen [13:21:39] I prefer working with the built in systems where possable over making my own systems [13:23:02] Depends on how you look at it, if you're already going to customize the light/dark mode theming then a bare bones skin that doesn't even ship with dark mode by default might suit you more. Otherwise, yeah, built-in dark mode is the way. [13:24:30] Kind of a shame that most skins don't use CSS variables though. [13:25:04] most skins were made a billion years ago [13:25:26] I use CSS variables in my CSS [13:26:41] I would rather not do that generally speaking, hacking it on top of something that doesn't have it built in and doesn't use variables properly is hellish [13:26:59] lol unfortunately lots of people on the wiki love Citizen. especially considering both sekaipedia and bandori wiki use it as well [13:27:17] vector works for me so far, I suppose [13:27:55] I liked medik ok, hated having to press extra buttons for editing [13:28:11] I notice that most worldbuilding wikis that use Vector 2022 use plain Vector 2022 [13:28:21] I did change serif to sans serif [13:29:04] I like having the dual sidebars of Timeless. Having things easily laid out and accessible is nicer to me than having to click extra to find things hidden under tabs or whatever [13:30:24] Vector 2022 has the problem of not making the toc an element on the article ehich kinda makes certain formatting styles more difficult [13:30:59] It looks fine if you style it like old Vector - https://dev.miraheze.org/wiki/User:Tali64%C2%B3/vector-hybrid.css [13:31:11] I did custom styling for Vector 2022 [13:33:08] neat. though why hardcoded colours? [13:33:50] I prefer to keep my assets under All Rights Reserved though as I would prefer other people not use them. [13:34:16] I did make a CC-BY-SA "base" or two for others to work off, but fully customized assets are ARR [13:50:08] Interesting, I’ll take a look [13:50:34] Ooo that does look really nice [13:50:36] I’ve been kinda stressing over finding a replacement for Timeless if it gets outdated and I don’t really want to go for citizen [13:54:09] I haven't had a reason to worry about timeless unless you've seen murmors it will fall out of da te [13:54:33] otherwise its actually one of my favorites because it does just chill and carry on for a long time, its not big and fancy and in need of babysitting too much [13:54:55] but also vaguely modern enough to pass too [14:01:40] I didn't think about customizability when I made it - all I focused on was replicating the look and feel of old Vector [14:01:41] I was reading here that the team supporting it is inactive so I’m just seeking out a backup if that ever happens [14:02:01] But yes timeless is my favorite skin [15:07:07] I'm glad we all collectively and silently decided to ignore the hot mess of design that was windows 8 [15:22:54] What do you think of All Rights Reserved wikis? [15:24:41] more of a blog [15:26:35] All Rights Reserved is a copyright relic [15:26:50] Windows 8? Don't know her 💀 [15:26:58] I mean, I use ARR as I would prefer other poeple not to use work I paid to have made and I would like to make money from my wiki one day [15:27:41] I will say I don't have much against 8.1 in particular, though I dismiss 8.0's existence [15:28:05] all rights reserved I am principally against as a copyright radical but it is not something fruitful to debate at the individual level [15:29:04] Yes, I am unusnal, but then again, I do want my wiki to be the next Orion's Arm [15:29:07] I appreciate that they tried new things, some of which were good. I didn't appreciate the disjointed design language and disruptively hidden functions [15:29:14] first part i can get but i dont see its relevance to making money [15:29:22] that's actually pretty normal really [15:29:41] Donations? Selling books/lore/art/? [15:29:42] it is the standard attitude to be as reserved as possible and against open redistribution [15:29:56] an attitude I do wish to change and happily subvert by contributing to spaces with a more open attitude [15:30:24] Tbh I am happy to make CSS bases and put under a free laisance as to help the new Miraheze users [15:30:48] I don't really see much in it that I thought was a necessary evolution besides some security and capability functions, otherwise I saw a design I didn't need, more telemetry, and more lets make this a mobile os attitude [15:31:03] this would beat nothing for sure [15:31:27] and I've said multiple times you've put together some of the best css I have encountered on wikis [15:31:49] [1/2] I just plan to keep Taerel and all related assets under ARR (as I pay writers with my own money to write it) [15:31:49] [2/2] But I would love to slowly make bases for all the major skins [15:32:12] example? [15:32:33] Also, I feel more open infoboxes and other templates would be neat [15:32:36] this is where I defer to stevie to link [15:32:55] https://taerel.com/w/Taerel_Worldbuilding_Wiki [15:33:09] What open assets do we need more of? [15:33:41] What open assets do we need more of? I ask, as if I ever finish the CSS bases for Cosmos, Timeless, Old!Vector [15:33:53] view with vector 22 yes? [15:34:02] yes [15:35:16] the skins probably in need of most help are skins that exist and are maintained but don't often get much love [15:35:41] I don't have very good examples at the moment by definition because I just don't see and remember them but I'd have said medik was one if avid didn't do a lot of work to it themselves to be the exception [15:36:10] I plan to do bases for the 4-5 most common skins [15:36:20] maybe if someone has a concept to make something like refreshed more pretty, I think its a great skin but its not very 'pretty' by default [15:38:08] the most popular skins I gather would be vector (both), cosmos, citizen, timeless, and everything hard drops from there really [15:38:46] maybe medik, monobook further behind [15:40:02] I've seen cologne blue, vaguely remember some refreshed... maaaybe monaco but we're digging into a pretty obscure bucket now [15:40:33] I omit minverva, it probably should slot in with the top 5 from the default effect but I'm not aware of it being particularly liked and I certainly don't like it much [15:43:10] I think Cosmos is about half done now [15:44:07] thought you were pretty far along with that one [15:44:44] Lakeus too [15:50:33] I like Citizen's design language but it needs tweaks [15:51:02] Refreshed [15:52:04] Refreshed got a nice layout [15:52:19] My favorite skin so far [15:53:46] I'm between Citizen, Refreshed and Vector 2022. [Monobook can look really great too](https://www.wikidex.net/wiki/WikiDex) [15:53:54] Does MediaWiki work with less yet? [15:54:12] In MediaWiki pages? [15:54:15] Or skin styles? [15:54:18] Yes [15:54:28] Yes [15:54:38] Woah they do now? [15:54:42] ResourceLoader can compile Less stylesheets to CSS [15:54:58] Dunno when but they did 6 years ago when I tried to make a skin [15:55:13] Refreshed was made with Less so I'm sure that's nice [15:55:58] It made sense back then but nowadays most SCSS/LESS features are supported natively by CSS [15:56:06] And the remaining ones are coming soon / being considered [15:59:06] Soon enough, LESS will go extinct [15:59:08] I would say the cosmos CSS base is finished for now [15:59:24] I think I have finished the CSS base for now for Cosmos [16:06:45] What templates do you think are needed for Miraheze dev wiki? [16:08:29] A less complicated stub template [16:08:51]