[00:00:13] :D [00:28:30] Equestripedia is nearing its 9th [00:28:44] 7th on Miraheze I believe though. [11:08:42] I wonder when did you guys first found miraheze 10 years ago [11:26:57] reception wikis [11:36:18] Google. [11:36:47] Taerel wiki is about 11 years old now [11:38:28] There was a big push for wikis to leave fandom about 9-10 years ago. I forget if there was any inciting incident then or if the means to do so just became more accessible. [11:53:53] I am glad I got off fandom in like 2016 [12:47:27] 2016 is still have wikia vibes, where they are focusing more on users than shareholders [12:47:53] Roughly 2022 is where they started to change [12:50:36] 💯 [12:50:56] well, I wouldn't say they were great [12:51:11] they were just fine and acceptable [12:51:39] things started to get more horrible in the early-to-mid 2020s [12:53:43] if you forked a decade ago, indeed, there would be some advantages, you would gain more autonomy than whatever wikia offered back then, no question about it [12:55:13] ads were still a bit problematic and their forking policies existed since 2015, but were internalized, but neither of these problems were as significant as they were now [12:55:48] funnily enough [12:56:53] I remember back in 2020, when there was a question being asked that was something along the lines of "what is the future of fandom in 5 years", one of the staff members responded as the "entertainment nerd site that would bring all the fans together" [12:57:19] hi my sidekick [12:59:34] but quite frankly, the opposite has happened, lol. sure, they still have a large share of wikis, but a lot of the important ones, especially game wikis, moved away from the platform, some new ones avoided it altogether, and fandom's reception on reddit and x has been universally negative [13:05:28] I'd say fandom arguably reached its peak as a platform years ago, probably just before 2022 when wiki.gg was founded and miraheze started to gain more wikis [13:10:46] nah, there was still the disaster that was the UCP [13:15:28] true, though I felt like the mass exodus of wikis mostly began in 2022 [13:16:18] that does not mean in 2020 or 2021, people were satisfied with the platform or that there weren't a few wikis here and there forking from fandom [13:20:02] Always wondered why Wookiepedia gets away with linking to other non fandom wikis regularly [13:20:38] I’m guessing it’s either the wikis being in different languages or that they just have enough leverage to tell fandom no [13:21:11] this [13:21:32] the leverage part [13:22:17] what is ucp [13:22:55] can you give me an example? i wanna see [13:23:11] also, the reason is a lack of oversight on the non-fandom wiki links [13:23:38] probably for the best, fandom counterparts of forked wikis are redundant anyway [13:24:43] also, fun fact: fandom globally phalanx minecraft.wiki and balatrowiki.org [13:24:56] but redirects exist, you can still use mc.wiki and balatro.wiki there 😉 [13:27:37] [1/2] Basically go to the bottom of any prominent article and you'll see this bar. The Finnish (Suomi), Polish (Polska) and German (Deutch) wikis are all non-fandom sites (Jedipedia Finland, Jedipedia Germany and Ossus Wiki) [13:27:38] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1530929588950139096/image.png?ex=6a675cc9&is=6a660b49&hm=f8c01ee826936c5cf638704034407a371ffa6ed558352a96243dbe4b53b84b7a& [13:30:11] "unified community platform", basically forcing old gamepedia sites into fandom [13:46:05] what is phalanx [13:46:18] banned/blocked/restricted [13:46:24] in this context [13:46:45] people at fandom deserves to go to hell for having no morals [13:48:50] Tbh I learned you can sometimes back edit links into Reddit posts to bypass reddit filters [13:49:12] I wonder how one could deal with fandom's annoying link blocking [13:51:40] they allow it as long as it's not added via interwiki manner and not against their customization policy [13:52:01] we even used to add something very similar to fandom's native interlang links [13:52:12] to a non-fandom wiki [13:52:25] however they didn't even remove that when disabling our css [13:57:15] But I think they are interwikis since they show up as de: and pl: [13:57:32] We didn't. We started on Fandom in 2016 and moved to MH in 2024. [13:58:46] wait isn't fandom's interlang shown at the top as a dropdown list? [13:59:17] Oh. Nice work getting off of Fandom, that definitely took a lot of dedication and effort to do [13:59:50] Yeah, a few older wikis just used a specialized template though [14:00:29] then maybe having non-fandom interwikis is also a privilege for older wikis [14:29:54] I just assume it’s a Wookiepedia privilege but Iunno. Only other wiki I’ve seen it on is memory alpha and I don’t think there are non-fandom wikis for Star Trek [14:31:14] yeah, there aren't any [14:31:15] yet [14:31:22] unless if you're counting star trek online wiki [14:55:01] we also used a specialized template (the template itself is based on community central). [14:55:09] well, we still use it -- we ported it over when we moved [14:55:28] our sister wikis still have it on fandom though, but unfortunately we don't get the privilege of allowing them to still link to us apparently /just checked [15:02:56] we remove the sister wikis thing [15:03:52] we hope we can build it again under this principle someday [15:05:33] as for links, i think it's quite normal for linking to wikis with other themes using templates [15:05:50] i was thinking about the true interlanguage links [15:07:09] oh yeah, those were also included in the template... i think this was before they included the dropdown for that [15:07:40] tbh the interlanguage template we created was also imitating fandom's default template at the beginning [15:07:51] after fandom moved to dropdown, we also moved to dropdown [15:08:14] after we moved to miraheze we can finally replace them with the true interlanguage links [15:09:15] honestly, i was never quite sure on how the fandom interlanguage stuff worked [15:09:35] they aren't using a database like wikimedia, right? 🤔 [15:09:41] iirc there's a page for requesting interlang in interwiki [15:09:52] condition: fandom wiki [15:10:03] just add them manually [15:10:08] oh i see, so you have to manually request it for each page? [15:10:27] i don't think so [15:10:37] they simply add an entry in the wiki's interwiki table [15:10:51] then you can use interlang grammar to add for each page on your own [15:11:04] just like on wikipedia user pages, where no wikidata can be used [15:11:22] oh i see [15:11:40] (that's also how interlang should have worked w/o a central wikibase [15:12:47] not having a wikibase is sometimes annoying. i created a gadget for editing interlang links easily and a bot ci to update interlang links automatically when wiki in other lang moves a page or what [15:14:11] but wikis not hosted together can't use a wikibase easily either after all [15:18:43] if fandom was a country, they would build a big fenced wall around their borders and generally boycott their neighbors just because they're not under fandom sovereignty [15:38:27] What would the Fandom country look like? [15:39:02] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1530962657564299325/images.png?ex=6a677b95&is=6a662a15&hm=a34daf69f54b618d62615a160da822d0dbed947036101381cae854164f414000& [15:39:26] What would Miraheze look like? [15:40:12] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1530962952096841979/would-you-rather-live-in-a-solarpunk-or-cyberpunk-city-v0-bihbprq2zqvf1.png?ex=6a677bdb&is=6a662a5b&hm=5e401517778e4ea4ac384d3ba6cf92920644daa09d05b1e6f184c9c5cc1c145d& [15:41:34] hold up, dunno if this is ai [15:41:36] brb [15:42:19] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1530963486895771728/images.png?ex=6a677c5b&is=6a662adb&hm=811c51b00c6bee7411708a01b18a06fd8380728ff3021b940b9ebd4fd53386ea& [15:42:35] Cute [15:43:29] and every corner on fandom is like this, full of ads and light pollution [15:43:56] speaking of chinese, it's also annoying fandom doesn't allow to create a wiki in simplified chinese merely [15:44:07] that's in tokyo [15:44:42] sorry i mean the 湖南菜馆 which is written in chinese [15:44:51] Taerel wiki would look like a Gothic hall hidden deep in the maintenance-ways and down a lot of stairs. Half the hall is being dug out and there is a lot of scaffolding. [15:45:03] this is so real [15:45:17] the city in the background is balatro wiki [15:45:26] [1/2] fandom-wiki.gg border [15:45:26] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1530964270227914884/2024-01-08t072314z-388506348-rc2vc5a4z5t6-rtrmadp-3-israel-palestinians-gaza-egypt-border.png?ex=6a677d15&is=6a662b95&hm=e1652749fc58ac6ee4cb65b3a855cac25bda043e5097822c8b8ecbdaa0571984& [15:45:51] because they're fierce enemies, at least mostly one-sided from fandom [15:46:15] like 50% of my annoyance at fandom is purely because of their stupid link blocks, no matter how petty it is [15:46:26] they allow zh, zh-hk, and zh-tw, including two variants for traditional chinese, but if you want a wiki available in simplified chinese you must maintain the conversion table [15:46:43] i always wondered about that, but i thought it was perhaps a mediawiki thing [15:46:51] use balatro.wiki to link to that wiki's articles from fandoom 😉 [15:47:52] What do you think of UCP? [15:48:13] yeah no, it's just fandom being pissy about links to good wikis [15:48:48] i meant the chinese language system thing [15:48:59] it has really screwed up some modules on chinese languages wikis [15:49:00] o [15:49:19] i dont know why but one was being duplicated once for every supported language [15:49:24] no. you can create zh-cn wikis on miraheze [15:49:26] oh nice [15:49:30] that's amazing to hear [15:49:31] it's fandom banning that [15:49:35] lol wtf [15:49:45] Fandom isn't even blocked in China, even if it's just not popular, to my understanding [15:49:51] fandom only allows a limited language list [15:50:13] iirc fandom's terms of use have articles specially made for chinese law compliance [15:50:37] they comply with chinese personal info protection law [15:50:39] I understand having a short selection of supported languages to an extent but banning one of the most widely used language codes in the world is crazy work [15:50:39] ahhh [15:50:43] interesting [15:51:02] maybe they'd say hey it's zh there [15:51:40] for languages with variants mediawiki is much more complicated [15:52:01] on the other hand they allow zh-hk and zh-tw wikis away from the complicated things [15:52:59] [1/2] this is for real [15:53:00] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1530966170591825971/image.png?ex=6a677edb&is=6a662d5b&hm=ce056ae86a099fd6fd4857a06a444543c6ef33c412164a8f145c4d2e1b3a51e4& [15:56:18] so even fandom agrees that pipl is almost same as gdpr, but miraheze doesn't agree 😭 [15:56:51] Fandom also has top dollar lawyers on retainer and can afford to make their own assumptions [16:00:23] ^ this exactly [16:42:25] Cc @notaracham for an official view but as far as I know, we will generally apply the most generous rights to everyone anyway [16:42:54] E.g. we won't refuse a request for a GDPR deletion from a user outside of the EU without an exceptional reason [16:43:14] It's just your enforcement route that will matter [16:43:32] tbh i was mentioning this bc of bilibili's csp review postponed [16:43:47] it was raised as a concern that a website complying with pipl may not comply with gdpr [16:44:14] [[phab:T14069]] is going to celebrate its first birthday [16:44:14] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/phab:T14069 [16:44:15]

[16:45:32] happy early birthday from 12 subscribers [16:45:38] Personally I'd be more concerned about the threat from the state than whether they have privacy laws for their own citizens [16:46:01] I personally think we should implement the WMF's country protection list guide [16:46:50] Something I noticed recently Is that Bing search results are significantly better than google [16:46:57] Why hasn't this become more mainstream yet [16:47:09] The UI kinda sucks but [16:48:04] even wmf allows to add domains of some chinese gadgets to their csp whitelist [16:48:36] [[wmfphab:T419502]] [16:48:36] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/wmfphab:T419502 [16:48:41]

[16:48:58] points vaguely at the CSP testing incident [16:52:06] any global or tech policy says that's a reason for denying a csp review? [16:53:21] at least the csp review form doesn't have the question like 'is it from an untrusted state' [16:54:05] and i've seen sites with less measures on personal info protection got approved [16:56:36] (it's also been the only thing we failed to explain to the readers why we moved here; after moving to miraheze almost everything improved but the many embedded videos just stopped working) [17:01:44] i read it. it's totally about how to protect contributors from this list, and has nothing to do with services from this list [17:44:34] Per concerns raised by others in tech, global approval isn't happening. We can revisit this once per-wiki CSP is an option. [17:44:51] The ticket is essentially stalled until that becomes available. [17:45:26] I'll add a comment to that effect [17:47:25] that's exciting news. how's per-wiki csp going on? [17:48:26] Haven't heard much re: progress in recent days, question for the tech team. 🙁 [17:50:18] What’s CSP? [17:53:33] Content Security Policy, essentially a whitelist for 'what sites do I trust content to be delivered from' [17:54:09] A bit more complicated than that under the hood, but that's the quick explanation [18:03:05] We already have per-wiki CSP. It's still not possible to toggle them in ManageWiki but adding a domain to a certain wiki's CSP is already possible. [18:03:18] It's controlled by https://github.com/miraheze/mw-config/blob/55ee79aba08b2ce51ad9d97e997db0e1771a0b92/ContentSecurityPolicy.php#L268 [18:03:45] Nice! [18:05:49] [1/2] So if a wiki needs a specific domain to be cleared it's already possible. [18:05:49] [2/2] https://issue-tracker.miraheze.org/T15148 and https://issue-tracker.miraheze.org/T15205 still needs to be done, though. [18:06:45] This is very, very neat. The possibility of amending a wiki's CSP through managewiki wasn't one I was aware of. [18:07:36] How would we request this? 👀 And would it go through the same process as the regular CSP? Since we'd also like bilibili embeds enabled on our wiki 😅 [18:07:46] wow, that's great. :) [18:08:30] has been bilibili been enabled on other wikis already? [18:10:03] No, it's been stuck in CSP review for almost a year [18:10:20] Ah [18:11:32] That's why we're asking, haha. Since there's been talk of shifting some of the already cleared websites (but used by only one or two wikis) to per-wiki CSP, but the last time we asked about how this'll affect bilibili (which hasn't passed CSP), iirc we were just told it wouldn't make the regular CSP process any simpler or quicker... [18:11:46] I wonder if the concern might also be copyright...I've found a lot of bootleg feature films/motion pictures on Bilibili. I imagine Bilibili is able to get away with it due to lax / non-existent enforcement in PRFC [18:11:58] So not sure how to go about requesting per-wiki CSP for a site that's stuck in CSP limbo 😅 [18:12:44] No, I don't believe so. It's because bilibili is based in Mainland China which doesn't require GDRP on their websites, though they have their own privacy policy standards, apparently [18:13:11] We're looking to embed indie music posted by the musicians themselves anyway, so no piracy involved. [18:13:15] Ah, okay. That makes sense. :) [18:13:36] we're also trying embedding the official videos from the animation studio [18:14:17] i remember this too [18:14:17] Right now we're getting around it for some musicians who upload to streaming services who have agreements with YouTube Music and embedding those streaming links instead, but obviously it doesn't work for all of them. [18:14:45] so i'm excited about the news it may get benefits from per-wiki csp [18:15:19] Yeah, fingers crossed, haha. [18:15:23] yeah [18:15:41] is SoundCloud more liberal than YouTube Music in terms of accepting indie artists? [18:16:11] This really isn't about the indie bit. It's more like these artists are based in Mainland China which blocks most of the common video upload sites, like YouTube and SoundCloud. [18:16:20] ah! [18:16:24] gotcha [18:17:13] It's just that Chinese streaming services often have contracts with western ones to share catalogue, so that's how we're getting around some of it (since YouTube is embeddable) [18:17:33] perhaps requiring a standardized template on wikis with Bilibili embeds might be a suitable workaround [18:17:40] But of course not all indie artists upload to streaming, and depending on the publisher/distributor, they might disallow western broadcasts [18:17:46] on pages where the embe is [18:17:52] [1/2] tbh they didn't even start a bilibili account by 2019, bc bilibili was relatively limited to things like anime or vocaloid before that, and their early official uploads are even on services like youku and tencent video 🥹 i used to be quite sure they may never get approved, but it per-wiki csp simplifies the workflow in some ways, i'll send them to the review l [18:17:52] [2/2] ater too [18:18:11] i still prefer to embed official uploads instead of youtube unlicensed reuploads 🥹🥹 [18:18:57] Yeah, there are a lot of prohibited YouTube reprints for the indie artists we're trying to embed too. We disallow those, so we just have a placeholder image for bilibili artists right now instead of any embeds lol. [18:19:34] dmehus: for your information, because I have actually used music distro services before, getting on soundcloud is much easier than getting on mainstream streaming services as soundcloud allows you to upload stuff yourself. [18:19:41] we use a placeholder that leads to our transit site on github pages [18:19:59] Zppix: ack, thanks :) [18:20:15] it costs lots of money to get on Spotify and the like [18:20:55] what about podcasts? is it still free to distribute your podcasts on Spotify? I remember they bought Anchor a few years ago [18:21:02] e.g., [[mh:xyy:Shanhai Yue Yunxiao]]. we don't lead readers to the original site but embed it on our hosted static page bc when using mobile bilibili's very terrible and keeps asking you to download their app [18:21:02] https://mh.wikipedia.org/wiki/xyy:Shanhai_Yue_Yunxiao [18:21:03]

[18:21:11] As far as I know the only way youre getting on spotify is some distro service [18:21:17] ah [18:21:46] that's too bad :/ [18:21:51]