[00:02:04] or that [00:05:04] What cache issues? first i've heard. [00:05:08] is there a phab task? [00:34:30] logged out users, autowikibrowser, and apparently users in israel specifically seeing incorrect/outdated pages and categories unless they're manually purged the hard way [00:34:55] if there is no task then no, we're not aware. [00:35:22] and users visiting a page on mobile causing it to appear mobile for everyone else who visits logged out until the cache is cleared [00:36:53] and we've also had a random page display not refreshing on every reload like it's supposed to but it's probably not related [02:42:34] disgustedorite: are you talking about https://issue-tracker.miraheze.org/T12285? [02:45:18] That does encompass the mobile issue [02:45:51] i came in the middle of the conversation (oldest message i see is "logged out users, autowikibrowser, ...") [02:47:55] There's also the issue of pages missing from categories and old versions of pages bring shown if you're logged out, are autowikibrowser, or are in Israel specifically for some reason [02:49:20] old versions of pages when logged out is also aggressive caching [02:49:28] Only using the special page for purging resources fixes it [02:49:37] Maybe the caching should be less aggressive :/ [02:49:55] i kinda wonder why it's not automatic too [02:50:25] i actually probed and basically mapped out how caching works when a member of our wiki wondered why the main page wasn't updating [02:50:47] autowikibrowser seeing old pages is odd though [02:51:00] It doesn't when editing [02:51:09] It's when trying to get a list of pages [02:51:21] so pages missing from categories? [02:52:06] Yes, as far as logged out users, autowikibrowser, and a user from Israel are concerned [02:52:23] how is the page added to the category? through a template? [02:53:10] Yes, but the weird thing is [02:53:21] It affected semantic mediawiki too [02:53:55] is the categorization done by editing the template only and not the pages? if so, you probably faced another layer of caching: mediawiki [02:53:56] And these were old pages that already should've had the categories and smw properties before the issues began... [02:54:26] what happens when you make a null edit on a page (i.e. go to edit and click save changes immediately w/o editing a thing) [02:54:36] Nothing [02:54:40] okay that's weird [02:54:53] Again this ONLY affects certain users [02:55:03] linkie? [02:55:09] Logged in users who are not in Israel specifically see everything fine [02:55:33] Hold on I purged resources for a bunch for fixes and will need to find examples again-- [02:56:48] Actually I'll grab a screenshot of when it was first discussed in here [02:57:57] [1/2] I THINK this example is now fixed but I'll need to get on PC to check properly [02:57:57] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1259342615292285070/Screenshot_20240706-215709_Trebuchet.png?ex=668b55b4&is=668a0434&hm=451fde9828f7c533ead60adb81f972bad498088e699bd6059c6bf2d75de4a3c3& [02:58:03] a link is probably better [02:58:13] But like a couple hours ago I had the same issue again [02:58:16] for future context [02:58:53] Is it intended for you to be able to set the category of a page through the comments extension using for example, [[Category:Candidate for deletion]]? [02:58:53] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Category:Candidate_for_deletion [02:59:17] which comment extension [02:59:34] Commentbox [02:59:46] Lyralici0us: it feels like so? unless if the extension specifically dummies out [[Category:...]] wikitext [02:59:46] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Category:... [02:59:55] that syntax can go anywhere on a page and it'll categorize it [03:00:10] to actually link to a category, do [[:Category:Candidate for deletion]] [03:00:10] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/:Category:Candidate_for_deletion [03:00:18] thanks wm-bot, you are very helpful [03:00:18] Hey BlankEclair, you are welcome! [03:00:27] if its that one that adds the comment to the actual wikitext yea [03:00:31] Honestly I'm using it for all the imported pages I have that need to be recategorized for work, so its nothing bothering me, I was just wondering if that was intentional because it seems abuseable lol [03:00:55] I find it hilariorous that neither of the wikibots send links to us on disc [03:01:01] but [[when we do it]] [03:01:01] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/when_we_do_it [03:01:02]

[03:01:05] you guys get two [03:01:06] we get two! [03:01:11] Lmao [03:01:19] for context, > [07/07/2024 13:00] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/:Category:Candidate_for_deletion [03:01:21] two!!!!!!! [03:01:45] oh, mediawiki actually ignores the leading colon... did not know that [03:02:01] pardon? [03:02:17] the link is /wiki/:Category:..., but accessing it treats it like /wiki/Category:... [03:02:19] the screenshot was for the irc chat's benefit sine I don't think they can follow discord message links [03:02:23] *since [03:02:36] can confirm, cannot open discord message links [03:03:03] things affecting only a certain region makes me feel like a certain cache proxy (thanks to geodns) is to blame [03:03:40] if someone there knows enough, what happens if you tell them to try `curl -X PURGE ` next time and see if that clears cache [03:03:52] I have to say honestly, it was a bit weird switching from Fandom at first, but I love this website with how much power you have over your wiki. [03:04:16] otherwise you can also hit the cache proxy used there (i //think// it's cp26/cp27) yourself [03:04:24] could also be something fucky on his end, admittedly we don't have a ton of israeli users to interview. But I saw the same thing he saw while logged out so, it felt connected [03:04:35] oooooooh [03:04:36] gotcha gotcha [03:05:04] i haven't edited on other wiki farms before, but i also agree that miraheze gives a surprising amount of control (dunno if that's something conventional for most mw wiki farms though) [03:05:38] Oh miraheze I think offers more extensions than any other farm [03:05:41] i actually wrote an extension for our wiki and it got accepted and half-installed (i goofed up a step and now i'm just waiting for someone with server access to actually fully installed it) [03:06:18] and javascript on miraheze is nice, i've heard that fandom is fuzzy about that [03:07:19] yea [03:07:40] you need to go through a full manual review by staff for common js [03:07:42] well [03:07:48] any non personal js [03:08:00] they have a page to import stuff from dev wiki at least [03:08:07] good [03:08:44] why does my brain already have an idea on how to exfiltrate data with javascript whilst complying with the CSP [03:09:10] say what you will about fandom corperate their community dev wiki is fire [03:09:13] o? [03:09:38] CSP is basically to avoid accessing stuff from other domains, right? [03:09:59] so if you could do XSS, you can only send data to certain domains [03:10:25] i have a theory on a way to send data to somewhere that only an attacker can read, but it involves some setup and honestly i'm not sure how useful it is [03:10:26] yea..? [03:11:19] so a way to bypass CSP in a XSS [03:11:23] [1/2] Active example: the second paragraph of the main page is shown where I'm logged in (left screen) but not where I'm logged out (right screen, private window). Relevant page: [[mh:sagan4beta:Main Page]] [03:11:23] https://mh.wikipedia.org/wiki/sagan4beta:Main_Page [03:11:23] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1259345994206806086/image.png?ex=668b58da&is=668a075a&hm=2bff7a2059045536d26675a08e2e9c07065c9daa7c6bef8c38c33601f56a5d68& [03:11:24]

[03:11:27] not bypass, it still complies with it [03:11:39] but the attacker can still send stuff to somewhere they (somewhat) control [03:11:43] huh [03:11:47] so [03:11:50] circumvent? [03:11:56] and if the custom comain has an impact: https://beta.sagan4.org/wiki/Main_Page [03:11:56] the intentions of it i suppose [03:12:20] i'm not sure how useful it is so i haven't filed a sec bug report (and even then, it's kinda unpatchable) [03:12:52] I'll try and get a category example but I've been whack a moling them [03:13:07] and if you already have XSS, you can already (noisily) exfiltrate data by just editing pages on the wiki you're on [03:13:20] (bc they caused problems for regular wiki operations) [03:14:17] disgustedorite: appears to be aggressive caching still [03:14:30] interesting [03:14:33] I'm trying to get a category example gimme a bit [03:14:34] anyways [03:14:45] its late [03:14:48] im sick [03:14:51] im tired [03:14:56] i go to sleep [03:15:00] Go rest, yeah. 🙂 [03:15:02] nini (and i relate) [03:15:10] covid my beloved [03:15:16] beloathed* [03:15:18] oh ouch, nini x2 [03:15:42] anyways uh universe is a lie buy gold check out our [[RfGP]]s byyyyyyyyye [03:15:42] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/RfGP [03:15:43]

[03:16:11] a wild request appears! [03:17:42] gasp! [03:18:16] Okay I have a category example now [03:19:08] [1/4] [03:19:08] [2/4] Logged in: You should see "Submitmas" [03:19:09] [3/4] Logged out: "Submitmas" is mysteriously missing [03:19:09] [4/4] Autowikibrowser: Also doesn't know about Submitmas [03:20:07] disgustedorite: (if you understand this sentence), what is the value of the x-cache response header [03:20:26] how do I get that [03:20:49] What’s the MediaWiki page to increment the number to show the sitenotics? [03:20:50] dev tools -> network -> refresh the page -> look for the entry that reads https://meta.sagan4.org/wiki/Category:Activities [03:21:10] mooncloud: MediaWiki:Sitenotice id [03:21:18] Thank you! :) [03:21:31] quick opening-documentation-fu [03:21:41] (not google-fu because i just went to mediawiki.org/wiki/sitenotice directly) [03:22:08] (my browser is being so slow bc my antivirus decided to start unscheduling and resceduling itself several times a minute for some fucking reason sorry this is taking a bit) [03:22:38] i hate it when your laptop suddenly crawls slower than a snail [03:22:57] (the laptop i have has an oddly high amount of hardware or firmware issues) [03:23:19] I have an oldass desktop that used to be a high end gaming pc [03:23:46] my dad's newer laptop is more powerful than it [03:25:08] it says there were no requests. [03:25:18] disgustedorite: i can reproduce the bug if i connect to the cache proxy in the US [03:25:20] wait [03:25:30] a filter was on for some reason [03:25:35] (cp36.wikitide.net more specifically) [03:26:41] [1/2] > x-cache [03:26:41] [2/2] > cp36 hit/12 [03:26:47] ty [03:26:59] (i already figured it out by just trying all of the servers lmao) [03:27:11] can i clear the cache from that specific server and let you try again? [03:27:29] yeah [03:27:42] try again [03:27:50] (the page should take some time longer than usual to load too) [03:28:05] it loaded instantly and submitmas was there [03:28:09] what the [03:28:53] oh nvm the page being there is expected [03:29:28] i guess i have low standards for speed [03:29:42] but yeah, seems to be the age-old aggressive varnish caching yet again [03:29:47] as for AWB... that's odd [03:30:05] that should use the api instead of scraping the page, right? [03:30:18] It should [03:30:29] which is reason enough to assume it may not [03:30:40] may not what? [03:30:43] in this infernel world of mediawikii [03:30:46] use the API [03:30:53] oh no [03:30:59] Check this out: Now lightning Challenges isn't there when it should be, as it is now in the category too. Maybe this caching is dumb [03:31:35] what happens when you use AWB on that category? does it get that page too? [03:31:48] (could responses be cached under some cirumstances?) [03:31:51] I'll check [03:31:57] they are typically always cached when logged out [03:32:03] varnish cache is bypassed when logged in [03:32:35] Well, awb got it this time [03:33:22] which is odd because earlier when iw as trying to awb some stuff on Sagan4beta, and a monthish ago when awbing on Sagan4alpha under similar circumstances, it would not [03:33:47] is there a debug log for AWB or something that lets you see what urls it's fetching? [03:33:52] (i've only used JWB) [03:34:19] (in the former case it took me forever to sus out bc it only affected like 2 pages, latter was really obvious when it showed about 200 fewer species than there should be) [03:34:25] is it reasonable to ask that miraheze purges cache from all of the cp servers when a page is edited? [03:34:27] maybe it's 2 unrelated issues that just happen to look similar [03:34:59] I don't think so [03:35:07] I do have wireshark on my PC though [03:35:10] well, outdated pages sitting for days is a bit unreasonable I think [03:35:16] If i can replicate the bug [03:35:20] okay several days is weird, it should be 1d at most [03:35:34] i should be able to view all outgoing network traffic from my pc [03:35:41] tls exists [03:35:48] hm? [03:35:49] i prefer mitmproxy or burp suite for HTTP-level stuff [03:36:01] oh you're talking about AWB specifically [03:36:13] yea since its a .NET app [03:36:21] unfortunately for all parties involved [03:36:36] can't believe this is the one time i would prefer javascript over something native [03:36:56] awb should be hitting the server with https so data would be encrypted to wireshark [03:37:05] I personally think maybe ?action=purge should fix this on a page by page basis and it's dumb that it does not [03:37:18] disgustedorite: that purges mediawiki's cache, but not varnish [03:37:39] though honestly, i also agree that it's kinda stupid that it doesn't purge varnish (+ cloudflare?) cache [03:37:53] I wish to placate varnish's aggressive caching [03:37:58] depends on how easy it is to do though, does mediawiki offer hooks for purging? [03:38:12] disgustedorite: solution 1: log in [03:38:15] true [03:38:20] solution 2: purge the page from all servers after you make an edit [03:38:30] well now i wanna try it [03:38:33] AWB! [03:38:43] wake up auto [03:38:50] I's have to convince everyone else to do that which is more annoying [03:38:56] oh true [03:39:11] i have like two things to do, and i don't wanna put three [03:39:20] oh wait i forgot that i literally have a to do list [03:39:32] this is probably the best solution for high importance, high traffic pages tbh [03:39:37] organization! [03:39:55] I just wish I could see what pages are high traffic [03:40:01] (the to do list is literally just a matrix room) [03:40:26] I know we get like a few hundred people lurking the alpha wiki alone daily what are they all reading [03:40:30] looking at wireshark is so interesting [03:40:52] a few days ago i was debugging an email client i was using and i tried to MITM traffic from it to a remote server [03:41:03] i forgot that encryption exists so i saw just unreadable data lmao [03:41:29] it keeps scrolling [03:41:36] (i tried to get the client to give me its tls keys, but eventually gave up and connected to the server myself and typed the imap commands or w/e) [03:41:38] the song im playing compliments that perfectly [03:42:31] looking at the analytics for my wiki, apparently there's 38 people browsing it through HTC Browser [03:43:14] also is it just me, or is the fact that matomo collects screen resolutions kinda creepy [03:43:31] I mean, it's useful for styling purposes [03:44:35] huh, Special:Analytics doesn't give any info on most commonly browsed pages [03:45:27] hmmm [03:45:29] yea [03:45:35] encryption [03:45:38] it exists! [03:45:41] Fandom has a really detailed analytics page [03:45:51] i hate it when i forget that basic things exist [03:46:03] Google search console does tell me what people click when they google sagan 4 at least [03:46:05] yea, if needed SRE I mean tech can give page view info i think [03:46:18] matomo does collect page views by default [03:46:27] (i don't know if miraheze turns that off--i hope so) [03:46:58] I think we collect view metrics? [03:47:02] you'd have to ask an op [03:47:34] okay nooooow sleepy time [03:47:39] sweet jesus [03:48:25] (who do I ping to get the top 10 sagan4alpha wiki pages with the most views lol) [03:48:47] void prob [03:48:48] gg i forgot the password to my test matomo instance [03:49:04] real [03:49:23] anyways try to sleep [03:49:27] take 2! [03:49:35] sleep attempt 2 [03:49:57] two!... hundread sixty seven [03:49:58] @orduin what are the top 10 sagan4alpha wiki pages with the most views [03:50:17] ba ba boom [03:50:28]