[00:10:14] [1/11] The problem with that is, going back to 2023 and earlier where there almost were no limits to get a wiki for. Almost anything was accepted. But as we have seen, there are many problems arising and the community itself gets stricter. (At least from the Stewards, Board and Reviewers point of view. [00:10:15] [2/11] Not to disrespect former colleagues, but that was how it was then. [00:10:15] [3/11] "I want a wiki" - well "Here you go, and if you misbehave, we'll close it". [00:10:15] [4/11] The problem with that attitude is, that we always have to clean up the mess that we allowed to be created. We're slowly seeing that we are responsible for the name of our platform. You see how easily things can give Miraheze a bad name. [00:10:16] [5/11] I personally feel that we as a platform are responsible for what goes on on our wikis. We all know that many violate copyright. But if everyone ignores it, it doesn't make it right. I feel responsible to call it out, and actively bring awareness to this. And in the meantime, I place the law over the community. [00:10:16] [6/11] And yes... [Fair use is allowed](https://www.libraries.rutgers.edu/research-support/copyright-guidance/copyright-basics/fair-use). But Fair use is limited by [00:10:16] [7/11] * Purpose involves education, research, criticism, comment, news reporting, transformative use, parody, non-commercial use. Entertainment (Games are entertainment unless specifically designed for educational purposes) [00:10:17] [8/11] * Nature of the work is published, factual, informational, nonfictional. [00:10:17] [9/11] * Amount used is a small portion, a small quantity, or part that is not the “heart of the work.” (complete game/data sets or images are not a small portion) [00:10:17] [10/11] * Effect on the market or potential market for the work is not to interfere with the market, or replace a sale, or harm the economic interests of the rightsholder. (Our wikis are cc-by-sa which allows commercial use) [00:10:17] [11/11] The same with Lyrics. I can quote part of the lyrics, but not the whole song. [00:11:10] [1/9] Mama, just killed a man [00:11:11] [2/9] Put a gun against his head, pulled my trigger, now he's dead [00:11:11] [3/9] Mama, life had just begun [00:11:11] [4/9] But now I've gone and thrown it all away [00:11:12] [5/9] Mama, ooh, didn't mean to make you cry [00:11:12] [6/9] If I'm not back again this time tomorrow [00:11:12] [7/9] Carry on, carry on as if nothing really matters [00:11:12] [8/9] It's famous, and everyone knows this. I use this as example of "a small portion" [00:11:13] [9/9] But I would be violating copyright, if I placed the whole song here. [00:23:04] [1/5] I would like to point out that the 4 conditions listed are not requirements for fair use but rather things that strengthen a fair use case as stated in the document you are quoting: [00:23:04] [2/5] > Weighing for fair use are situations when... [00:23:05] [3/5] It is possible that something checks most/all the boxes but is determined to not be fair use or vice versa: checking few or none of the boxes but still determined to be fair use. The court determines whether a work is compliant in a case-by-case basis. [00:23:05] [4/5] I also have a different view on the law, but those are personal differences, and there is no point in trying to convince each other to change longstanding views on the subject. [00:23:05] [5/5] Anyways this conversation shouldn't really develop into us dropping text walls onto each other lol. I think we have made our points clearly and it'll be up to the stewards to decide in the end. [00:28:20] It both gives strength in using Fair Use, but at the same times limits how much you can use. [00:30:33] [1/3] ```Anyways this conversation shouldn't really develop into us dropping text walls onto each other lol. I think we have made our points clearly and it'll be up to the stewards to decide in the end.``` [00:30:34] [2/3] You're right there. [00:30:34] [3/3] But I felt the need to explain why I take that strong stance, as I felt that I was portrayed in doing something horrible, which I am not. [01:02:00] It'll be interesting to see how MH volunteers' opinions vary on this topic. Maybe someone can make a survey and have us fill it out. [01:11:25] I'm having a lot of trouble when it comes to making infoboxes for my wiki [01:16:09] That would indeed be nice. I am afraid I would be having a column all for myself though 😄 [01:17:13] Please read [[Infoboxes]] and if necessary, find and compare them with those on [[dev:Category:Infobox templates]] [01:17:13]

[1/2] [01:17:14]

[2/2] [01:17:56] Time to go to bed soon. 3:17 am [01:18:00] 💤 [01:19:15] Thanks [01:36:18] Can imported infoboxes be edited on the wiki its imported to? [01:38:07] I imported the Games template to my Classic LEGO Games Wiki but can I edit the template over there or is it against the rules? [01:38:18] Yes [01:38:20] you can do whatever you want with it after importing [01:38:47] Thanks [01:59:28] We’ve lost role icons again [01:59:32] curse my life /j [02:02:02] how will we know that the dark blue fellas are discord moderators now [02:02:37] No way tol tell a:pensiverainbow: the world shall be so confused [02:10:44] The one continued constant is that I remain Not Aracham [02:11:47] for the low low price of mod perms I can change that [02:26:44] Petition to give Skye mod perms just to troll and do nothing else [02:26:58] This is a flawless idea clearly [02:29:15] your logic is sound [02:29:41] https://tenor.com/view/marvelous-sunday-uma-musume-gif-25819844 [02:36:09] should run for admin for silliness [03:52:32] [1/4] Is it possible to make a slideshow on Miraheze that looks similar to this? [03:52:33] [2/4] Where the images slide into frame when you click the arrow and it has a little caption on the bottom? [03:52:33] [3/4] (leave out the automatic sliding because it's annoying :P) [03:52:33] [4/4] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1423880444222636052/Untitled_Project.mp4?ex=68e1eb80&is=68e09a00&hm=6b4fcf02dc2821dd0d5f65f8dde1a65a5b1a043e981fc0e552e2c68eec3eedb3& [05:39:52] bro i can't even open phorge proper on my tablet [05:40:44] guess making a task on laptop then [05:44:07] when i need to update something small real quick it's much more convenient for me to fish out tablet than boot up and then shutdown whole laptop, and mobile - im just trying to save me eyes here [05:58:50] onto this topic about lyrics and what not, it probably sounds dumb on a practical perspective, but wouldn't it be better to have a page discuss about a song, its history, composition, etc. but link the lyrics somewhere? [05:59:28] or at the very least, a place to explain the lyrics if we have to host them? [06:03:47] funny thing is, the current biggest/popular lyrics data base is basically a wiki [06:03:51] genius.com [06:04:05] it's edited by users [06:04:06] yep [06:04:18] and there even was one on wikia long ago [06:04:20] lyricswiki [06:04:22] and so were ye olde lyrics web sites [06:04:30] too bad, it got shut down a few years ago [06:05:11] that's the one that got banished and fandom itself since hits everyone who tries to post lyrics, i still don't know who was the exact offended party here [06:06:56] [1/2] from a copyright perspective, it was a legal nightmare for those who take copyright law on wikis conservatively [06:06:56] [2/2] though I guess other than that, it was shut down, due to containing "inappropriate content" and being too large for them to migrate to Fandom's new UCP/UCX update or whatever it was called [06:07:01] using lyrics copyright in a sense that they can't be printed or shared for listener's benefit doesn't make sense, and those who actually wrote lyrics understand that [06:07:27] yeah, forgot about second part [06:07:39] too bad, I did like it, even for its problems, I thought it was pretty cool personally [06:07:47] seeing how massive a wiki could get [06:07:53] (ignoring wikipedia ofc) [06:08:25] they say spotify have lyrics - well, i don't have goddamn spotify and will never make one, so does that mean im gatekeeped away from reading lyrics? [06:08:44] @posix_memalign practically speaking, there's no risk if the wiki is official or at the very least appreciated by the devs [06:09:05] my problem w/ it was that they would create useless pages for instrumental tracks lmao [06:09:20] oh lol, genius did that too [06:14:19] my point here is, it's very rare for game devs to DMCA, let alone, sue their fans for building wikis of their game(s), even if there are cases that could exceed the bounds of fair use (such as uploading too many game assets without using it or only using large in-game text verbatim). [06:15:45] of course, a proper wiki should avoid doing the latter and be more comprehensive, but this risk is lower if the devs support the wiki [06:16:01] niwa wikis are doing pretty well, w/ their stance on independence [06:24:39] [1/3] also SPcodex, formerly one of the most prominent wikis on Miraheze, currently independent [06:24:39] [2/3] they operated on the ground that lyrics aren't copied from an existing text source but adapted from an audio recording - still doing well [06:24:39] [3/3] plenty of old independent music wikis never ever cared about lyrics copyrights and are still alive and well, no chasing and shutdowns, just an obligatory credit/authorship [06:33:34] copyright holders viscously going after fan sites is a thing of 90s [06:34:15] now they learned to exploit fans for free marketing lol [06:39:18] dunno why, but I'm kinda worried about them, given that nintendo is very litigous [09:43:52] hello. seems connection with wiimedia non working [09:43:56] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:CC_BY-NC.svg [09:43:59] https://intercriaturas.miraheze.org/wiki/Archivo:CC_BY-NC.svg [09:44:49] I have to download and upload to miraheze? [09:52:45] I'm seeing the same problem, but only on one specific file [09:53:37] https://cecu.miraheze.org/wiki/File:OOjs_UI_icon_information-progressive.svg seems to be broken, but https://cecu.miraheze.org/wiki/File:OOjs_UI_icon_notice-warning.svg is completely normal [10:18:08] [1/2] now is restored in the use itself, but the File:CC_BY-NC.svg doesn't redirect where it should be and still 100s of files that says uses a file that doesn't exists. That page should shown the file in wikimedia not a "this file doesn't exist" [10:18:08] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1423977482683678730/image.png?ex=68e245e0&is=68e0f460&hm=4423cbe530cc0dac32104e315ac060761599b4041dfa70fd5c5897a0637fdab5& [10:23:48] how do i change the mobile navbar [10:29:57] [1/4] (I know you said you didn't want any more textwalls but just wanted to say) [10:29:57] [2/4] On the Battle Cats wiki, which according to monthly miraheze stats is one of the biggest wikis on miraheze, we use a massive amount of ingame assets, including images and verbatim text. from my understanding of copyright, all of those are technically not fair use and PONOS (the creators of TBC) could request that it all gets taken down, but they simply don [10:29:57] [3/4] 't. The wiki was on Fandom for 12 years and has been on MH for more than 1 year now. I'm not sure how aggressive music companies are with copyright, but surely there's no harm done by letting the wikis exist and taking down copyrighted content if formally requested to? obviously I don't have your level of experience with this stuff so might have missed som [10:29:58] [4/4] ething [10:30:45] which navbar? [10:32:34] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1423981112241295380/IMG_0025.png?ex=68e24941&is=68e0f7c1&hm=2bb18678fcde581c93009c81b291865ab8ed751f1316aeb2eaad60747b3b033a& [10:35:35] The music wiki that was in contestion was for two indie artists, and the wiki requester has said that they've received permission (but not a proper copyright license). I am biased because I help run Vocaloid Lyrics Wiki, but I think the risk of copyright takedown for that wiki is far less than that of VLW, and VLW is allowed on Miraheze [10:36:31] [1/2] The music industry is very strict. Gaming industry often believe that they get free advertisement. [10:36:31] [2/2] The artists, Songwriters and labels are also a lot more vocal against using their content, as can be seen by the many complaints against AI, and there have been cases I know from for example the Netherlands (BUMA/STEMRA) who actively take down copyrighted Lyrics websites. And the Music industry in the USA is just as active. [10:37:00] how do i change it [10:37:01] ? [10:39:25] [1/2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Minerva_Neue#Configuration_of_menus [10:39:25] [2/2] Uhh I don't know how to do that on minerva, this is all I could find [10:39:31] Allowed is not the right word. The Stewards accept the risk. Their rational is, "When a DMCA is filed, we take it down". [10:40:14] Our Wikis policies are not above the law. [10:41:08] minerva (default mobile skin) is bad, we usually suggest to change to timeless/cosmos/citizen if mobile mode is absolutely needed [10:41:18] they will have sidebar like desktop [10:41:44] [1/2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Minerva_Neue#How_can_I_add_items_to_Minerva_menus? yeah seems to be impossible unless you're the literal owner of the site [10:41:44] [2/2] otherwise citizen or timeless make use of the normal sidebar as legroom says [10:42:35] if desktop skin is already one of those or another mobile adaptive, you can just disable mobile mode extension [10:48:45] I mean, on the topic of allowing game wikis and such, if we all followed what we _think_ is the law (because anything regarding VLW and our game wikis are yet to be proven at all in court), Miraheze wouldn't be a thing, we'd be mass closing wikis. [10:54:54] why do i get loggged off miraheze everyday [11:04:11] i still really dont understand whats happening here, i tried copying what you put there for the lower bits of text but its still bold [11:04:48] are you visiting new wikis? cus system tends to log you out when trying to attach your account to new place [11:05:11] yes [11:06:06] [1/2] well, here you go [11:06:06] [2/2] untill long awaited improvement to account system will come out we'll stuck w/ this behaviour [11:06:52] i suggest checking out wikis in incognito, thus system won't try to attach you and log out [11:07:11] [1/2] That is (respectfully) a non-argument. If everyone just did what they want, there'd be anarchy. Rules and laws are made to be adhered to, not to be interpreted to fit own agendas. And look at Wikipedia, Wikivoyage, Wikibooks, Wikinews, etc. All wikis that cover various topics with respect for copyright. [11:07:11] [2/2] My believe is, that users should be more aware of copyright laws, and find ways to publish content that is freely available, and are in compliance with the cc-by-sa license we have on the wikis. [11:07:21] if you intend to contribute to wiki then ofc use your account [11:08:23] I do that as well, after I check the wiki I have approved. Otherwise I'd be logged out every 3-5 minutes 😄 [11:09:11] Just use a different browser for that [11:12:57] It isn't difficult in my opinion, to write text in your own words, explaining your topic. And you can easily link to the lyrics on the official websites. [11:13:20] I don't really care about rules and laws at the end of the day anyway regarding copyright, because we all break copyright by your interpretation, we all watch "pirated" gameplays on YouTube, and share "pirated" memes without the proper license for redistribution, and so on [11:14:17] I don't (at least not that I am aware of) [11:15:06] _if buying isn't owning, pirating isn't stealing_ [11:15:09] _looks at ubisoft_ [11:16:07] that is the logical endgame for your statement regarding fair use at the end of the day however (https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/407537962553966603/1423824501132627989), at the very least the entire concept of playing games on YouTube would be piracy according to you, even if memes may or may not be considered parody [11:17:51] piracy has never been stealing my friend, specially not for culture [11:18:52] @originalauthority if you don't know the thing with Spain and the US regarding copyright way back, I'd recommend reading up on it btw [11:19:05] I'll have a look [11:19:33] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ley_Sinde is a good place to start [11:21:49] <90gq29> is there any formal process to request archiving to the wikiteam webarchive? i recall there being a bot in the server to do just that [11:22:25] yep, contact @pixldev for that I believe? [11:22:41] [1/2] I stick to what I know is right. I am fully aware on how the music industry perceives the copyright. I don't know much about the gaming industry, (only from in here) that they are more relaxed, and see it as free advertisement. (Whether that's true I don't know.) [11:22:41] [2/2] Another example is the Sports industri. They are very strict as well. Any small clip of 5 seconds or more are taken down from YouTube, even if it is in watchalongs. Users who created groups or fora with content from games, races, matches, etc.. were all actively being remved from platforms due to copyright infringements. [11:22:48] <90gq29, replying to bluemoon0332> ill ping him in the channel [11:27:17] [1/2] https://thewiggles.miraheze.org/wiki/Get_Ready_to_Wiggle [11:27:17] [2/2] Okay i've done some minor editing, i still cant get the pieces of text to not be bold but you cant win em all [11:39:34] <90gq29> is WikiApiary shut down or something? im trying to create an account on there and its saying "We're moving homes" [11:39:48] it's been like this for years [11:40:02] idk what's up w/ it [11:40:29] <90gq29, replying to theoneandonlylegroom> rip [11:40:44] [1/2] Like, putting aside the music industry as a whole, the matter at hand is specifically about a wiki dedicated to two indie artists (who are not, to my knowledge, affiliated with any corporate music publisher or distributor) who have given their explicit permission to this wiki to host their work. I'm genuinely unsure how that would be against the law in any way, shape, or form. Like [11:40:44] [2/2] if an artist can't give permission for their own work to be used freely for noncommercial purposes without having to figure out licensing, where are we as a society? 😂 Feels kind of backwards. [11:44:24] [1/2] it's because the cells for data are formatted as headers, w/ `!` - should be a pipe `|` [11:44:24] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1423999191943741460/2025-10-04_14_43_40.png?ex=68e25a17&is=68e10897&hm=246c6984f57baa2042c7f9ebb680ab3475be207d09e0c4eb0064d86f7b1f0b35& [11:44:54] the label can stay as is [11:45:18] which ! should be a |, i have no clue [11:46:08] the second ones, w/ `{{{...|}}}`. shown w/ grey on screenshot [11:47:08] `!width=100...` -> `|width=100...` [11:47:47] doing that just made it so the cells text refuses to render [11:48:19] damn, wait [11:48:25] wait a sec [11:48:33] try to undo [11:49:01] also the wiki looks rather funky rn w/ blue background [11:49:35] yeah im trying to figure out wiki wide formatting and failing horribly lmao [11:50:18] test this in element inspector or personal css first, then move ready code to main places [11:51:02] did you copied infobox from an older wiki? [11:51:06] i reversed the change to songbox btw [11:51:18] someone else gave me the template from one of their wikis [11:51:28] it's rather old fashioned [11:51:44] [1/2] The problem is... We cannot verify if that is the case. They can tell you that it's fine. But how can I check that. You might just be able to to say that, to put it online. (You probably are honest about it, but many others aren't so honest. [11:51:44] [2/2] Therefor it needs to be verifiable, and the best way to do that, is to state it on their website, or wherever they host their content. [11:52:33] i suggest to undo common.css too for now [11:52:53] have you knowledge of a newer template? [11:53:06] i erased the whole thing its just taking its sweet time [11:53:27] yeah, i might try to do something in template if you don't mind? seems like my account is finally attached [11:53:37] please go ahead [11:54:01] Providing proof sounds reasonable, actually. If you had mentioned this to the requester, they probably could've done it, if it was something as simple as, "Hey could you write a line on twitter or your website or whatever saying that we're allowed to host your content?" 🤔 [11:54:03] im happy to have to go in and tweak a bunch of stuff if it means the wiki functions as intended [11:54:12] by all means change things [11:55:15] I can take that in consideration indeed. I have automatic responses I choose from, so I can add that to that response indeed 👍🏻 [11:56:14] All right, thanks! I'll mentioned this to the requester too. [11:56:16] [1/2] this is ridiculous [11:56:16] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1424002174836277359/2025-10-04_14_55_33.png?ex=68e25cdf&is=68e10b5f&hm=34ab191e0b5511adb4595619789131b88541ac242867c7c6c2e4dc4549778082& [11:56:29] can't reach w/o vpn, can't use w/ vpn [11:57:16] this blows [11:57:26] this is my own problem lol [12:02:28] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1424003737634078826/image.png?ex=68e25e53&is=68e10cd3&hm=947406633d1f541c24d97665af98a2e8dd9fb54bec55af5200e64d814f2ba1b7& [12:06:51] [1/2] Email seems like it can be a bit of a barrier since most people nowadays don't seem to enjoy writing emails 😅 But it certainly does seem clearer what route they can take, so thanks! Though I feel like having them write a line or two on their website or social media account might be even better proof? Since how can you confirm that they were the ones who sent the email? 🤔 Just my t [12:06:51] [2/2] wo cents though. [12:07:40] [1/2] Man, I wonder if we can even do something on the tech side. This is Cloudflare rate limiting your VPN right? Normally I would say we could host an onion site that doesn't go through Cloudflare (since users that can reach a VPN can reach Tor or any of the bridges as well), but Miraheze's setup isn't very conducive to that due to custom domains. A [12:07:40] [2/2] t most only wikis and websites on *.miraheze.org would be accessible. [12:10:45] Normally you could confirm the email with that what is provided on the Social Media channels (Such as Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, Twitch, BlueSky, Mastodon, Twitter, etc. If an email comes from an account, not present on these socials, it would be unverified. [12:11:23] tor is so slow tho, i've been using it and orbot only when all vpn were blocked hard [12:12:28] we could host our onion site to only use one Tor relay instead of three, since we don't actually care about hiding our location since our IPs are public, that'd make it somewhat faster than your typical onion at least [12:12:49] Ah, OK, though from there, it sounds like occam's razor-ing that with just a link to a social media post where they confirmed that hosting was allowed would probably be easier, but I understand wanting things to go through more formal avenues. [12:14:47] I’m not the only one who can run it fyi [12:21:40]