[00:11:46] I recognize that old Facebook widget from anywhere [00:13:03] why do all of the MediaWiki pages regarding styling take so long to update? I've edited MediaWiki:Vector.css multiple times and nothing has changed, even after a hard refresh [00:14:02] cache, bruh [00:14:18] sigh [00:19:10] At the end of the URL enter `?debug=2` to see an un-cached page on your Wiki to see the changes [00:22:47] daforest: oh thank goodness! thank you [00:25:05] that's a thing?! [00:25:10] oh my god that is so useful [00:28:14] I be like that sometimes [00:30:52] why is there wordle if i cant play wordle anywhere :< [00:31:12] Que? [00:31:20] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1482899030789849211/Screenshot_2026-03-15_203112.png?ex=69b8a0d7&is=69b74f57&hm=03d2ae5d3fb87aa127b6d215c3fbd846f483cab8f910ecf9cbb71f8d4130e73b& [00:32:36] Wat het jy gesΓͺ? [00:34:20] I guess that's a remnant... Or a Staff-Only bot for shits n' giggles [00:35:07] yeah probably a remnant [00:35:09] Since not even in #bots you can even access it [00:37:50] Nope [00:37:53] We never added it [00:38:00] oh that makes sense [00:38:00] Far as I know [00:38:08] Probably a user app [00:38:46] [1/2] Discord is weird. [00:38:46] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1482900901625856000/image.png?ex=69b8a295&is=69b75115&hm=affbf87589c6a5406e75f13b6617818c642de9fcfc2d3575a560d152d46920f6& [00:39:02] tts is still available for use btw [00:39:47] Yeah, Wordle does have a discord activity so that's all it is [00:39:48] idk if it plays for everyone like in 2016 or if they fixed that, but it's odd to see it available for use [00:40:00] It played for me lol [00:40:19] i wonder if it can pronounce Miraheze [00:40:25] "muh-rays" [00:40:37] Muhrays πŸ₯€ [00:40:44] Man Ray [00:40:47] Murrays! [00:40:59] that's what we can be called from now on, Murrays [00:41:14] I will not [00:42:36] Checking my sole private Discord, yeah that's a global Discord app... [00:43:28] overestimated the popularity of wordle i guess [00:44:23] I see a good amount of people using it tbh [00:44:39] I prefer Horsle [00:45:15] Every word is the word Horse, but I'm always struggling with it. [00:45:27] Never been able to figure out the word. [00:45:44] You'll get it someday I'm sure [00:45:51] Just gotta keep trying [00:46:56] Hmmmmm... I 'unno [01:23:14] just finished doing my nightly worlde [01:23:37] [1/7] Wordle 1,730 6/6 [01:23:38] [2/7] β¬›β¬›β¬›πŸŸ¨πŸŸ¨ [01:23:38] [3/7] πŸŸ¨πŸŸ¨β¬›β¬›β¬› [01:23:38] [4/7] β¬›πŸŸ©πŸŸ©β¬›πŸŸ¨ [01:23:39] [5/7] πŸŸ¨πŸŸ©πŸŸ©β¬›β¬› [01:23:39] [6/7] β¬›πŸŸ©πŸŸ©πŸŸ©πŸŸ© [01:23:39] [7/7] 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 [01:23:39] :steveo_smile: [01:23:50] I don’t like you NYT [01:24:16] I just did today's NYT [01:24:30] [1/2] Wordle 1,730 1/6 [01:24:30] [2/2] 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 [01:27:07] [1/4] 🐴 Horsle 🐴 [01:27:07] [2/4] 16 Mar 2026 [01:27:07] [3/4] 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 [01:27:08] [4/4] https://cabletwo.net/horsle [01:29:49] Wait wait wait... Lemme guess the word was Mules [01:44:38] excuse me [01:45:05] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1482917590593441923/image0.gif?ex=69b8b220&is=69b760a0&hm=eb5f3b491b07d22847a08a77e45f9aab9e1696e30ee36b1dc760780f902a2032& [02:39:28] [1/2] im stupid, is there a way to change the article name? [02:39:28] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1482931277954023424/image.png?ex=69b8bee0&is=69b76d60&hm=46ef1738d060cced6a0463dc46af774347b6611cb3e93d905fdd2df558cd63a4& [02:39:40] ignore the lorem ipsum, it'll be eventually filled [02:39:47] i just need the link for now [02:41:28] You can use the ``{{DISPLAYTITLE}}`` magic word or move the article of choice to a new name. [02:41:42] tyy ❀️ [02:45:19] You're welcome! [03:08:30] Just ask an admin to move the page ig πŸ’” [03:09:11] I should've specified that. 😭 [04:30:56] omg loona [04:38:53] exactly! [04:40:43] i donted1 [04:51:17] does anyone know how long it takes for my wiki to get accepted? [04:52:21] this chat is kinda dry icl [04:52:49] depends on your request and how quick wiki reviewers get to it [04:54:40] mine was accepted so quickly it made me think a bot did it. [04:58:22] AI reviews the first request you send [05:00:52] boom [05:58:18] hiii [06:22:21] Can we help? [06:29:35] no thanks [06:30:02] Not for now, thank you. I just wanted to say hello. [06:31:34] Welcome then [07:25:27] [1/3] Is there a way to have a sort of database which you can select from? [07:25:27] [2/3] E.g. one central table with the 3 columns weapon, vendor, price, and then for a specific vendors page id like to have a table with the columns weapon and price, which includes all rows that have that vendors vendor value. [07:25:28] [3/3] Cargo and SMW seem to be the closest thing, but they’re both restricted, so I can’t use them it seems like? [07:47:02] they can both be requested [07:47:06] they're just tricky extensions [07:47:30] extensions with restrictions tend to have clarifying notes, I know cargo has had a bit of on and off history [07:48:16] Bucket should be coming soon too [07:48:37] cargo in particular iirc has had shaky history with security incidents [07:48:50] smw is just big complex and used to be a whole thing to turn on but its smoother these days [07:49:54] [1/3] both have major caveats (and bucket is new though I hear good things about it) [07:49:54] [2/3] cargo, ``` it is recommended to not enable this extension on wikis with more than 50,000 pages. This includes all pages, not only content pages. Please use discretion.``` [07:49:55] [3/3] smw, ```Permanently "experimental" and may be removed with little to no prior notice. Consider using Cargo instead. WARNING: Disabling this extension after it's already been enabled will clear all SemanticMediaWiki database tables as well.``` [07:51:20] in either case they just need elevated eyes to turn on and off so they don't 'run away' and be an issue that's enabled everywhere, if they're actually straight up off, these notes in managewiki would change [07:51:53] Video is an example, ```Note: This extension has been globally disabled. The following reason was given: Incompatible with MediaWiki 1.45``` [08:06:05] That’s good to hear! One of us has worked with cargo before, so ill probably look into requesting it. Thanks! [08:06:23] is that something you want on the spot [08:06:34] while one of the elusive button pressers is still reading [08:07:33] Oh if you would be so kind so as to enable it on marathon.miraheze.org that’d be mighty convenient! [08:08:42] Or do I need to submit a more proper request somewhere? [08:09:50] nah [08:10:19] should be done now [08:11:40] Tysm! [08:32:22] best of luck ^ [11:50:25] Miraheze now hosts 23k wikis [11:59:01] Gotta crank those numbers up [11:59:02] does any wiki even use the gamepress skin [12:01:11] [1/2] lol its not the worst thing in the world [12:01:11] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1483072635850981542/image.png?ex=69b94286&is=69b7f106&hm=26ee7e37ca2ae7140466b30af4b649bcf40b3bdb09abfc6b0a2ae8c8da5e5145& [12:01:23] still ugly as gell [12:01:26] Kill it [12:01:46] Looks like it came from 2009 [12:03:04] be grateful its not Anisa [12:03:32] anisa looks better than that [12:05:17] [1/2] I'm holding my breath on it, cause imma basic bitch of using vector, non 2022. [12:05:18] [2/2] I just like the the wiki logo in the corner, yknow? [12:07:05] it could be Nimus [12:07:13] that has a shoutwiki link embedded into the corner [12:07:44] true, true [12:07:57] do not say ANYTHING about my goat Monaco [12:08:46] looks like facebook in 2005 [12:09:16] i like the colors of monaco, very colorful to be honest [12:46:08] How dare you. I used to frequent creepy pasta wiki on this skin. [13:14:02] still ass,,, [14:33:41] notice how citizen solos all mentioned skins [14:40:46] now that I found out you can max-width the citizen page container (to show background image at the sides) it's back on the table for my wiki [14:41:07] gotta start working on setting it up [14:49:25] :NotDone: [14:57:54] DUDE [14:57:59] imnotcrystalite6 [14:58:12] bye crystalite6 [14:58:16] dunno who's that [15:10:47] gonna be so honest I tried watching theΒ  CVT channel [15:10:59] its sooooo boring idk how CVT does it [16:04:39] citizen is peak [16:04:56] best skin I know [16:05:02] even if it has occasional XSS vulnerabilities [16:07:57] :NotDone: citizen is in fact peak [16:08:25] there aren't that many messages though @crystalite13 [16:08:40] yeah [16:08:48] unless you're talking about #cvt-feed in which case I don't think anyone does that [16:09:56] a citizen lover [16:10:14] I'm ngl mh should setup swviewer [16:10:21] I think it's easy enough because there's already eventbus running [16:10:31] it would be a case of setting up the eventstreams API and then the actual app itself [16:11:11] citizen has working light/dark mode and proper mobile support, how many other skins have both [16:11:48] The thing is it has proper mobile support without losing features, I'd be fine with minerva if it didn't make it so much harder to do things lol [16:12:00] like you can actually navigate around with citizen on mobile whereas minerva is so clunky [16:12:55] I use Vector 2022 with light/dark mode custom colored and mobile support [16:13:02] Minerva is alright for reading on mobile but that's about it. It's really hard to use for editing and it doesn't look good on desktop [16:13:13] logo contest on communites [16:13:18] fun [16:13:29] Vector 2022 doesn't have mobile support out of the box though, citizen does [16:14:53] no joke I once got a dm from someone asking to help w/styling on a wiki [16:14:55] vector is responsive at least [16:14:58] they were using timeless [16:15:08] and the wiki was about a game CALLED timeless [16:15:13] timeless timeless wiki [16:16:03] my only complaint about citizen is i must wait for the results to load after i typed the exact title of a page and before i press enter [16:17:11] e.g. the wiki has both articles ABCD and AB, i want to go to ABCD, i input AB and i pause, then AB will come to the first of the results, and if i input CD and press enter immediately, it would bring me to AB instead of ABCD which is what i exactly input [16:17:38] mediawiki's native search box, on the other hand, works as the latter [16:18:40] I like that Citizen's search bar lets you open a result in a new tab from the keyboard. or maybe that's just a quirk of my setup idk [16:29:23] mediawiki's native search box sucks im sorry [16:29:57] citizen's search is so much better. name another skin that has built-in commands [16:30:27] search on the battle cats wiki has built-in commands [16:30:32] stolen fresh from fandom [16:31:08] e.g. `!u username` for User:username [16:32:52] but citizen itself has shorter `@` right? [16:33:10] we also have ns shortcut `U:` [16:33:31] no one but me has met this situation?? it's weird [16:33:47] i like everything about citizen but this behavior [16:34:03] i opened an issue and they say it's expected [17:01:14] how exactly do I create category pages? i dont just mean like, "funni tag that is a category" i mean more like how do I add information to it like a normal page, but at the same time it's just a category page (if it isn't automatic or stuff) [17:02:02] you just go to the Category:xyz page and edit it like any other page [17:02:53] ie this category page has a map and this one links to other categories as sorting options [17:03:24] hello [17:03:59] and I can edit it/create it on the spot the moment I do a link with `[[link/wiki/Category:xyz`? [17:04:09] well [17:04:13] yeah [17:04:30] or you can just add the category to a page and then click on the category from there. thats what i do [17:04:45] ok so it acts just like a page, however i can mark pages with that category, understood [17:04:53] yep [17:05:14] alr got it :nomChocoStrawberry: [17:05:25] no prob bob ! happy to help :3 [17:16:49] is there a way to fit a table between a table that has float:left and another with float:right? (like idk, is there a float:middle or some) [17:17:23] a triple table? [17:17:33] why not like a BIG table [17:18:01] `style="margin: auto;` has worked well for centering tables for me? [17:18:20] ok ty [17:18:40] Yw! [17:20:36] not working as intended [17:23:11] what are you trying to do [17:26:23] On the same line, have like...3-4 tables with space in between (separate tables) [17:27:18] look into flexboxes [17:28:01] something something all tables in a
(tables) [17:28:06] i can send you a link in a min [17:28:35] https://css-tricks.com/snippets/css/a-guide-to-flexbox/ [17:29:12] once im done this val swiftplay i can try to do it for u if ur not great with htmlcss [17:37:49] ok yeah i cant really do it, it's not changing anything [17:37:56] heres the link [17:37:57] https://amcfoundationofficial.miraheze.org/wiki/ANOM-019_Stingray_Pinnata?action=edit§ion=3 [17:38:33] if only making even the simplest of the things was easy [17:38:38] the three tables under suppression procedures? [17:38:43] ye [17:40:04] oh [17:40:05] i know why [17:40:16] hold on [17:40:55] also i believe its 4 [17:41:01] sitll [17:43:18] The tables should all be put in a single div, not a div for each table [17:43:24] https://acosaa.miraheze.org/wiki/Sandbox see here [17:43:56] all of the tables should be in a div like this : `
` and then a singular `/div` at the very end [17:44:39] If you're new to wiki stuff and want to get into styling like this I recommend you learn some html/css even if it's basic at first . Learn more as you want to expand and do more [17:45:35] CSS will be most of the styling [17:46:38] the worst part is that i AM IN PROGRAMMING COURSE, SECOND YEAR, AND WE HAVENT LEARNT THIS KIND OF CRAP OF "FLEX" AND STUFF [17:46:46] WE ARE ALREADY GOING TO DATABASES AND ALL THAT [17:46:53] what kind of programming is it though [17:47:27] JavaScript, SQL, C#, HTML, CSS and soon it's going to be Python and something else [17:47:31] ah [17:47:43] well it sounds like a more general programming course of just. multiple things in one [17:47:50] htmlcss is rather easy to learn on your own time [17:47:51] ye [17:47:56] [1/2] https://archipelago.miraheze.org/wiki/Talk:Paper_Mario:_The_Thousand-Year_Door [17:47:56] [2/2] FASCINATING piece of vandalism on my wiki today lol [17:48:21] where's the vandalism idek what im looking at [17:48:35] Maybe vandalism is the wrong word [17:48:56] but someone just showed up and started sharing their AU fanfiction in the talk page of a game randomizer [17:49:01] OH [17:49:07] OH MY GOD THIS IS THE ARCHIPELAGO WIKI [17:49:08] LMAO [17:49:21] lol [17:50:00] yeah i took a course like that. typically it's more base level stuff of a variety of things so you can understand the basic ideas of the programming [17:50:06] I am... politely redirecting them, instead of just deleting their stuff outright. Hoping they get the memo [17:50:12] hopefully so [17:50:26] Maybe we should keep an eye on that address in case they decide to go vandalize someone else's wiki instead lol [17:50:38] you can always mention it to #cvt [17:51:18] for the time being if you want html/css help feel free to hit me up. i don't mind helping [17:52:00] ok so why is the second table like...taller than the rest even if it has the same data and text size? [17:52:13] uhm [17:53:04] actually, the space between the first and second table are bigger wth [17:53:21] yeah thats bc of the flex kind [17:53:27] try changing space-between to space-evenly [17:53:59] Dropped them a line, thanks for the suggestion [17:54:30] welp...that solved ONE problem...but the first is now shorter than the rest [17:54:36] :moonch: [17:54:43] yeah css is finnicky like that [17:55:01] -# i swear i lose 1 braincell for every stupid visual error this damn kind of study makes [17:55:15] I did an entire computer science degree and learned nothing about CSS, everything I learned is from wiki editing lol [17:55:28] THATS CRAZY [17:55:33] NOW THATS CRAZY [17:55:42] like...nothing at all about css? [17:56:05] CSS isn't necessarily compsci though [17:56:07] i mean it is but [17:56:14] html-css is front-end web dev [17:56:21] comp sci is usually more.. programs and gamesd [17:56:30] maybe it depends on the region he toke the degree in? [17:56:37] nah they're just [17:56:39] seperate [17:57:08] they're both coding languages but htmlcss knowledge isn't needed for computer science. you don't need that if you're doing even the back end of a website. usually that's delegated to someone else [17:57:35] i mean...i guess it makes sense, here we have a discipline for CSS, JavaScript and HTML and another for C#, SQL and (soon) Python [17:57:55] discipline = subject btw [17:58:09] i accidentally translated by letter [17:58:13] there were projects that involved web development but I always did more of the backend stuff. It wasn't until my third-year solo project that I did proper frontend, I didn't even know how to use JavaScript before that [17:58:46] you can try adding `align-items:stretch;` to it [17:58:48] but like all the CSS I ever used was stuff I knew from wiki editing [17:58:52] yep same here [17:59:01] javascript can be used by more than just web, it can also be used to develop apps, so thats why im mostly surprised you didnt learn that [17:59:16] I started my wiki with 0 CSS knowledge and i mean now look at how different from the default timeless my wiki is LOL [18:00:00] didnt do anything [18:00:02] hm [18:00:27] hold on [18:00:38] to be fair, i started my wiki with 0 css knowledge too and I only used what was at my disposal in the base editting tools 😭 [18:00:49] The margins on the 2nd table and the rest of them are different [18:00:50] im even surprised im reaching this far [18:00:56] [1/2] try getting rid of this white space [18:00:57] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1483163174223220921/image.png?ex=69b996d8&is=69b84558&hm=bb8bc2c93712e62bced26ca2e881438fbf7ac6b094886ce3610d167a7ab1a669& [18:01:08] so there's only one and it matches every other table [18:01:31] oh, hold on you might be onto something [18:01:44] I learned CSS from messing around with stuff on a joke wiki [18:01:53] yeah my best friend for css is the [MDN Web Docs](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS) [18:01:57] you were onto something and it worked [18:02:27] I learned inline CSS on ToyHou.se (a character/oc/adoptable storage website) but that was about it as proper css is a paid premium feature [18:02:49] so i had the base knowledge when i moved my knowledge to actual css style sheets [18:02:54] but [18:03:01] inline css pmo so much [18:03:23] I don't even remember how I figured out to use inspect element, but I do remember it being a revelation [18:03:39] wth is inspect, im so far behind compared to yall 😭 [18:04:04] Inspect element allows you to see all of the coded features on a webpage including html and css [18:04:13] CTRL+SHIFT+I or Q [18:04:27] oh...that [18:04:37] yeah we learnt that from the start [18:04:49] i thought it was an element of css we didnt learn [18:04:51] yes if you make a new style sheet you can live edit your css to see how it'll affect the website [18:05:37] i mean, you could have a test website with test data that then you could test the code [18:05:44] but either way works [18:05:49] it's easier to use style sheets than to make a whole other website [18:06:00] LMAO [18:06:49] i still have yet to learn how to use style sheets and we've been using for a while [18:06:55] oh [18:06:59] style sheets are just the [18:07:12] like, its there in the code, but its not being implemented for absolutely no reason [18:07:41] its like a class in C# that is being called, but it doesnt have anything [18:07:49] do u want me to give u a rundown on how to use css on miraheze [18:08:02] that'd be useful actually... [18:08:14] [[help:CSS]] contains some information too [18:08:15] [18:08:24] i'll dm u so i don't clog up this chat but if i'd be easier i can call you or i can just send u dozens of screenshots [18:08:40] Came to post the MDN because it's super useful, you beat me to the punch. I got my start with CSS back in my first year of high school (2001). We've really come a long way since then. [18:08:51] 2001.... highschool... [18:08:55] I'm 38 [18:09:02] i forget people older than the age of 20 exist chat [18:09:12] god damn im half your age...i think...i need to do math [18:09:23] You're 19? [18:09:29] close enough yeah [18:09:35] MDN is literally like my favorite thing. And stack overflow for the really specific questions 😭😭😭 [18:09:35] :steveo_kek2: [18:09:42] whats so funni? [18:10:26] I'm finding chatgpt is becoming my stackoverflow. I'm smart enough to be able to weed out the hallucinations, but it's like, chatgpt can search for things quicker [18:10:28] OH HELL NO, MY TEACHER SAID WE ARE GONNA LEARN "MVC" WTH IS THAT ABOUT [18:10:45] model view controller [18:10:50] our teacher actually mentioned stackoverflow, and im using it a lot [18:10:58] is it hard? [18:10:58] if you're wondering what that means I can't even remember [18:11:02] Stackoverflow community is awful [18:11:10] ChatGPT isn't horrible i find but im so hesitant on the use of AI because it's being used so generatively and not as an assistive tool like it's supposed to be :ugh: [18:11:15] Ask a question, get told you're an idiot, question closed, no answer [18:11:26] Oh I don't ask questions I just look at other people's questions [18:11:33] My problems aren't that niche [18:11:48] same [18:12:28] Anyways @niofrostgd413 if you look at this page you actually should be set for knowing how to at least apply your css to your wiki. from there it's just actually learning the css [18:12:31] it's kind of just a way to separate your concerns, don't think it's that hard but I don't really remember much of what it actually is [18:13:13] oh how i love the Refreshed skin [18:13:19] πŸ‘ [20:34:30] Whats the formatting for spoiler tagging/toggling information when using the extension that enables spoiler tagging? [20:42:12] Unfortunately that's the norm for support communities, we're just very lucky that Miraheze is better than that. [20:42:54] -# I don't know what any of this means and that scares me. [21:05:39] is that just not on the extension docs [21:23:54] [1/3] There has always been a tension within Computer Science education between teaching practical skills (but we're not a trade school!) and teaching the fundamentals (but the students need a job!). [21:23:54] [2/3] Colleges lost some fights such as [using Haskell as the intro to programming course](https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/OtherDocs/Haskell.html) as only a few schools (U Waterloo and MIT I think?) still introduce students to programming with functional languages. [21:23:55] [3/3] As for web technologies, the consensus seems to be that JS/CSS are boring implementation details that students can learn on their own. It's better to teach universally applicable skills than a specific tech, especially since frontend technologies get obsoleted way too quickly. [22:31:30] That's education in general [22:40:39] [1/2] When I was in Intro to Prog, I was learning C++. [22:40:39] [2/2] And the bare minimum basics. [22:41:08] -# I'm more than surprised we didn't learn Pyton or Java [22:44:21] We did C#, Python and Java [22:44:43] I have many opinions on every level of education for a time when I'm more awake [22:44:46] Good night [22:47:06] I only had to take it because of my college curriculum, although I'm more of a IT student with a field in cybersecurity, so they don't really affect me much, but it's still neat to be familiar. [23:10:34] not taking computer science in school is def one of my top mistakes [23:10:38] self teaching is hard [23:11:10] [1/2] yall is there something wrong in this code or the image link??? the background refuses to change i use vector 2022 [23:11:10] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1483241244200140972/image.png?ex=69b9df8d&is=69b88e0d&hm=f6817d840458bd13013a25fb0b949fbb6bc6e4249a158831c74c65dc7399e12c& [23:11:41] bruh the wiki loves trolling me by not working and then when i ask why it doesn't work it works πŸ₯€ [23:12:36] common.css is cached so there can be delays [23:12:48] you can skip it by using `?debug=2` in the url you are viewing [23:13:30] oooh [23:13:42] i honestly just thought it was purposely ragebaiting me [23:13:45] ty tho! :) [23:16:15] ofc ^^ [23:16:25] you can also test css in your personal css first to avoid the cache as well [23:30:22] yeah im noticing the CSS cache is a fair bit slower than usual today. made a change couple hours ago that still hasn't been cached, but the debug shows it's fine. usually within an hour common.css will get recached, but this is slooow [23:55:41] I mean, if I was studying CompSci id be pretty pissed off if these were the things being tougjt [23:55:52] Slight necropost but [23:56:05] You can pick a good understanding of these up in about a weekend [23:56:25] [1/2] love how everyone in CS says its fucking useless [23:56:25] [2/2] and everyone not in CS says they wish they had done CS [23:56:51] (and they teach you nothing about CompSci in reality since the compiler is abstracting a lot of the stuff away for you), learning something like C, C++ et al where you have to think is where the knowledge is at [23:57:20] (i didn't do CompSci TBF, I hobbled what I know together from stealing other people's code :P) [23:57:49] And then one day you kinda just realised that you understand it [23:57:59] And then the past is history, new languages are mostly just new syntax [23:58:03] Except rust, that can fuck off