[05:57:27] i adressed the issue with Telegram there: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Telegram#no_free_technology_for_free_knowledge? [05:57:48] don't know the right place to discuss this - obviously not Wikimania... [06:06:09] This was discussed in multiple sessions: GLAMwiki global meeting; Wikimaps meetup; and in some strategy workshop (@gtisza probably remembers better) [06:08:32] how was it discussed? [06:14:21] 1. We should move to open platforms. 2. Chat is not inclusive towards those who live in minority time zones. 3. WMF has an internal Matrix server, it's possible to login using your Wikimedia global account, and the next step should be to set up a movement Matrix server where our Telegram/IRC channels are bridged. [06:19:32] ah ok fine. didn't hear about that internal Matrix server yet [06:20:22] great there was some discussion. i only was in sessions where it was announced that communication was in Telegram groups only [06:20:50] then usually one mentioned that that's nood a good solution, rest was like "ok but what should we do" and that's it [09:13:48] Yes! We start the Hackathon Showcase at 3pm in the auditorium! https://t.me/wikimaniachat/24841 [09:15:26] direct showcase etherpad link for IRC: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/Wikimania_Hackathon_2024_Closing_Showcase [11:03:43] Etherpad for the Lviv room where the tool sustainability meetup is happening: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/WM2024_Day4_Lviv-_Rooms_21%2B22%2B23 (cc @blancadesal ) [11:04:51] Thanks, I've copied the notes over (re @waldyrious: Etherpad for the Lviv room where the tool sustainability meetup is happening: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/WM2024_Day4_Lviv-...) [11:16:43] The Developer Corner poster is available for anyone to take with them! Just un-tape from the wall and enjoy! : https://tools-static.wmflabs.org/bridgebot/848c45a6/file_63809.jpg [11:18:20] and then I kept typing in the other doc... 🤦‍♀️ (re @blancadesal: Thanks, I've copied the notes over) [12:30:15] It was a flop, the matrix-appservice-slack bridge was horrible at the time (now it's only mildly horrible AIUI) (re @wmtelegram_bot: ah ok fine. didn't hear about that internal Matrix server yet) [12:31:24] we tried to set up Matrix for WCNA 2023, that also didn't work because the Element mobile apps didn't work properly with OAuth login [12:32:18] so at this point it's more about figuring out how to get good results out of Matrix than how to convince people, I think [12:34:28] e.g. find a decent Telegram-Matrix bridge. We tested the most easily available one (t2bot.io) during last year's hackathon, and that also wasn't great. [12:35:33] Once there is a decent bridge, we could set up a Matrix equivalent for each Telegram channel and propose it as an alternative. Without that, saying that Telegram has issues is fairly pointless. [12:58:40] Hi! I suppose it’s a newbie question (and please ignore it if it’s a dangerous topic), is there a wikipage somewhere discussing the choice of Matrix over other contenders like XMPP? [13:11:25] there is https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research_on_open_source_team_communication_tools but it does not try to recommend any specific tool [13:11:45] (I'm blocked again on Telegram, sigh. It really does not like me linking to wikis.) [13:12:06] There was some research that led to the WMF choosing Matrix as the FLOSS alternative for its internal Slack chat, but I don't think it has been published. [13:13:12] We did some research as part of another WMF-internal project, I hope we can publish some of that eventually, but it's not quite finished yet. [13:13:50] but mostly I suppose it's a doocracy thing. The chat tools that get adopted are the ones that people use and build tools for. [13:14:56] Hackathon 2024 Wikimedia is happening now! watch the livestream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe4VIb1oRcA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe4VIb1oRcA) [13:24:08] Declined I guess :D [13:24:09] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T371959 [13:31:42] COBOL! [13:36:29] @bozzy If you find me after the closing session, I got the visual editor thing mostly working [13:42:41] Also, 10th anniversary of Superprotect 😅 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Superprotect [13:50:48] anyone know how I can join the wikimania telegram group? [13:53:01] https://t.me/wikimaniachat [13:53:01] https://t.me/wikimaniasocial (re @carlinmackenzie: anyone know how I can join the wikimania telegram group?) [20:17:23] gtisza: the problem with these groups is that they are kind of inofficial, or at least you only get it if you are in the right session, have the right contact etc. So for a conference it would be fine to announce official channels, which preferably should be FLOSS in that case. [20:18:17] At my work the adapted Matrix quite well. So I guess it must be possible, but I agree that a bridge might help. [20:19:05] By the way the bridge from #wikimedia-hackathon:matrix.org to this channel does not work anymore. My guess would be that it was bridged to Libera and Libera cancelled Matrix bridges. [20:20:34] That said, Telegram at least is not the worst solution - better than Whatsapp, and I think from the Tools/Bots etc. more open and configurable than Signal (which on the other side has better privacy). [20:20:50] You must imagine we also have a lot of groups that feature people that have less of a technical background and don't want to download another app [20:21:01] but still I wander that WMF can't do what Mozilla seemed to have managed [20:22:36] sjoerddebruin: but people who are active on Wikipedia should have awareness for these kind of things. If working groups only have Telegram channels or surveys are only made on social media - people should be aware that this is not a free and open thing. If awareness for that even is lacking in that community, I dont know... [20:23:27] wikipedia itself is also not as easy as making a facebook post. [20:29:04] tgr: thanks for the links, I'll check them closer when I'm back home [23:47:47] Mozilla is a very different group in a lot of ways, for better and for worse [23:48:31] unfortunately some parts of how WMF interacts with non-employees via chat was part of an intentional strategy to shield employees from community members [23:49:34] and while infrastructure that directly operates the wikis is required to be FOSS, the tools that WMF uses internally are not. [23:50:12] and volunteers can use whatever tools they want, which usually means whatever is free at the point of use [23:51:16] which means that surveys end up on Google Forms and most of the people that used to be on IRC moved to Discord because it stays connected without effort