[00:00:12] I remember some sort of promote or desysop type extension(s) [00:00:27] Makesysop [00:00:32] !e Makesysop [00:00:32] --mwbot-- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Makesysop [00:00:37] but it's been deprecated by an updated userrights system [00:00:54] !e Desysop [00:00:54] --mwbot-- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Desysop [00:01:00] (for desysopping others) ;) [00:02:55] Skizzerz: Usually for hooks, we do something like "EditPageAfterEditButtons" or something like that [00:03:15] ok, I'll rename it ;) [00:03:23] that was just a guess btw [00:03:26] but you get the picture [00:03:44] *Skizzerz didn't find any page about naming hooks :P [00:04:02] there isn't one. I just got yelled alot by robchruch. ;-) [00:04:41] hehe, he had a thing for hooks [00:05:10] he had a thing for lots of stuff. ;-) really is too bad he moved on. [00:05:35] yeah, it is [00:06:33] Did he move on, or just vanish for a while? [00:06:43] not sure, really. [00:06:56] His blong said he wouldn't be contributing for a while. [00:07:17] Maybe he'll come back, I hope he does. [00:07:27] He hasn't posted anything to his blog either since he left. [00:07:38] w/ all the new devs, he'll be pulling his hair out in no time. [00:07:52] :P [00:08:51] TimLaqua: not quite sure if "EditPageAfterEditButtons" would be accurate though, considering it's used to change the buttons themselves, not to inject stuff after the buttons have been displayed [00:09:26] Skizzerz: I'd say EditPage for the class, and After/Before 'something' [00:09:42] editpageaftereditbuttons was just a guess. ;-) I didn't look at exactly where it executed [00:09:45] BeforeEditButtons ;) [00:09:59] golden [00:10:04] it executes in getEditButtons [00:10:18] almost sounds like we have a naming scheme. [00:10:30] xD [00:11:43] how would I handle the RELEASE-NOTES? make a mention that the hook was renamed, or silently overwrite the previous entry about it being added? [00:11:52] rename it [00:12:06] (overwrite) [00:12:11] mmk [00:12:36] if someone want's to *actually* know how things got to be what they are, we have these nifty svn logs. [00:12:59] Is it possible to access template parameters from within the core code, for example is it possible to access {{{1}}} using PHP? [00:13:38] Rename a hook that existed in previous revisions? Isn't that kind of sucky? [00:13:59] naaa, nobody used it [00:14:13] 'cept for maybe Skizzerz [00:14:18] xD [00:14:22] not yet, anyway [00:14:43] it existed for maybe 10 minutes before I changed it, that's a pretty small window to write an extension [00:14:52] ya, sounds like a good place for a hook. [00:16:02] now I can transition force preview from javascript to PHP xD [00:16:41] Skizzerz: the beauty of commit access. ;-) [00:24:32] 03(mod) Support collation by a certain locale ( sorting order of characters) - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164 (10brion) [00:26:02] Skizzerz: a thought [00:26:08] yes? [00:26:24] some extensions may prefer to offer different edit buttons depending on the page (functional namespaces, for instance) [00:26:37] it might be wise to pass in either the title or the editpage object as well as the array [00:26:51] yeah, I was just thinking about that as I was writing my extension [00:28:40] brion: have you ever thought of assigning bugs to devs? I'm not 100% on the bugzilla workflow, but I know that I'd work on bugs if it were assigned to me. It's just so easy to assume someone else will fix a bug. [00:29:02] TimLaqua, assigning bugs to volunteers doesn't work so great, usually. :) [00:29:08] :) [00:29:19] Brion assigns bugs to himself and Tim. You can assign bugs to yourself if you want. [00:29:25] currently i've only got one dev employee, and i tend to assign him big things :) [00:29:26] I have lots assigned to me, which I totally ignore. [00:29:29] but we're working on such things [00:29:43] Simetrical: I'm just saying if someone expected me to fix a bug. It'd be fixed. ;-) [00:29:53] if you'd like to volunteer to do bug fixes i can start assigning you things :) [00:29:54] timichal: 2257 :D [00:29:59] *TimLaqua [00:30:30] lol, indeed. [00:30:52] *Simetrical assigns TimLaqua bug 1 [00:32:04] isn't 2257 sort of fixed by #tag now? [00:32:12] "sort of" [00:32:20] Yeah, if you enjoy pipe hell [00:32:23] ok, ok, we all know that there are certain bugs that arent "break/fix type bugs" (ITIL Known Errors/Problems/etc) - but there are certainly a pile of bugs that could be wiped out by assignment [00:32:31] Dashiva: well, i do ;) [00:32:41] TimLaqua, if the assignee were willing to fix them. [00:32:46] brion: how's hiring going, btw? [00:32:55] Especially when the new parser comes along and kills any attempt at using pipes inside parser functions [00:32:55] If you mean little bugs, maybe our new junior programmer will get assigned bunches of those. [00:33:02] Who knows. [00:33:07] And yeah, what BrokenArrow said. [00:33:11] Any applicants yet? [00:33:12] BrokenArrow: got a pile of resumes to go through [00:33:13] whee [00:33:18] cool :) [00:33:19] Oh, good. [00:33:25] Let's hope some are competent. :) [00:33:44] Skizzerz: looks good :D [00:33:45] anyone from here? [00:33:46] Simetrical: sure, some volunteers don't want to be assigned bugs - but I'd assume many would be willing to carry a particular workload [00:34:09] i ain't read em all yet, but didn't see any familiar names :D [00:34:28] lol "please include irc nick" [00:34:29] TimLaqua: i've wondered the same thing for months [00:36:10] i certainly don't want 300 bugs in my queue any more than the next guy, but if I had bugs dropped in my queue (say i had a queue limit of 3 or 4) when there was an opening, right on. [00:36:49] i mean standard workflow stuff. "i can't do this" and pass it back the queue. [00:37:19] er... main queue/pool... [00:37:33] *nod* [00:37:45] i'd like a nice little "next things up" queue people can easily draw from [00:38:03] for sure. [00:38:08] brion: maybe flyingparchment is in there ;) [00:38:28] only if flyingparchment wants to move to san francisco :) [00:38:48] No commuting? [00:39:03] commuting from england probably won't work [00:39:17] i'm sure we could build some sort of tunnel... [00:39:38] the foundation had this bizarre idea to hire a single person to do office IT support and mediawiki development, which i assume is why it needs to be onsite [00:39:47] TimLaqua: just invent the Transporter [00:39:55] like trek [00:40:03] i'd invent a replicator first. [00:40:28] hmm, should we invent warp drive too? [00:40:36] flyingparchment: we can't dedicate a full position to it support [00:40:42] let's not overreach here. [00:41:51] wait a second, isn't this #mediawiki i'm in not #wikimedia ? [00:41:55] and i'm tired of being asked to set up printer drivers and show how to click things [00:41:55] but i have no problem making the noob do that :D [00:42:19] What is a "noob"? Do you mean "no0b"? [00:42:23] brion: go hire a co-op kid on contract [00:42:36] brion: I still don't see why telecommuting isn't an option. ;-) [00:42:52] *AaronSchulz loves airplanes [00:44:02] tawker3: most of the it support issues are things that take a couple minutes when you're there [00:44:12] tawker3, who gets hired as junior developer is highly relevant to #mediawiki. :) [00:44:18] if you have to call someone in or talk them through it over the phone, it'll take a billion times longer [00:44:29] could you vpn and vnc it all? [00:44:34] *AaronSchulz is pleased with the contract route [00:44:38] short of a hardware failure... you should be able to do that [00:44:42] see above "billion times longer" [00:44:54] I calculate that a couple billion minutes is a few thousand years. [00:45:03] fact is, in any office *some* schmuck ends up being the "hey can you make the printer work" jockey [00:45:07] i just need that to not be me [00:45:33] tawker3, VPN and VNC changing the toner cartridge? [00:45:35] 1 billion minutes = 1 901.32588 years [00:45:44] If you have a robot, maybe . . . [00:45:53] MZMcBride, pedant, you accounted for leap years. [00:45:55] Simetrical: gp [00:45:57] :D [00:46:03] well, google did :) [00:46:06] brion: you are the Chief Printer & Modem Officer [00:46:10] brion: why not hire a high school or college kid? Isn't rolling the MW dev thing in there make for an odd position? [00:46:14] Simetrical: thanks for reminding me btw, (changes toner) [00:46:15] Ah, see, I used a calculator. [00:46:27] 1 year = 365.242199 days [00:46:33] :? [00:46:47] TimLaqua, what, the MW dev isn't a high school or college kid? :) [00:46:54] He said, the IT guy can't be full-time, that would be crazy. [00:47:00] There are like five people working at the office. [00:47:11] Or ten or whatever. You have to have them do something else the rest of the time. [00:47:12] yeah, it'd be waay overkill [00:47:36] Good job, though. Fix people's printers one hour a day, surf the web the rest. [00:47:52] Simetrical: lol - actually, OTRS [00:47:54] naaa, you can get a high school kid for 10-20 hours a week at or below $10/hr [00:48:02] even a college guy/girl [00:48:11] *AaronSchulz likes college girls [00:48:12] turnover's higher, but w/e [00:48:12] TimLaqua, and then he's gonna be in the office the whole time? [00:48:17] i wonder if the foundation considered volunteers for jobs like that.. is that sort of thing common in the US, or not? [00:48:23] TimLaqua: on what planet.... most college guys in IT here are 15-20/hr min [00:48:29] US/CAD is more or less the same atm [00:48:38] tawker3: not on-campus/convienence workers [00:48:49] flyingparchment, well, the old office had a bunch of volunteers, didn't it? [00:49:04] did it? i don't remember any [00:49:14] Maybe not? I thought it did. [00:49:16] and "printer guy" doesn't need to be a hardcore "it guy" [00:49:26] just needs to be nice, talkative, and patient. [00:49:37] TimLaqua, you still need someone there full-time to do it. [00:49:39] One way or another. [00:49:42] Can't get around that. [00:49:48] So the rest of the time they have to do something else. [00:49:53] just schedule your downtime. ;-) [00:50:04] What more logical than programming? Any programmer should be able to fix people's crashed Word or whatever. [00:50:09] things can only break Monday, Wednesday, or Friday 8-12 [00:50:21] Simetrical: ooooo, that's a very poor assumption [00:50:33] *Practically* any programmer. [00:50:39] i've never changed a printer cartridge in my life [00:50:49] . . . How did you manage that feat? [00:50:49] i'm sure the manual explains it, but you don't need an IT person to read a manual ;) [00:50:54] *AaronSchulz looks at flyingparchment [00:51:02] IT people don't read manuals, they just know stuff regardless. :P [00:51:04] Simetrical: i don't print stuff. [00:51:08] Well, that works. [00:51:10] IT jobs are very overpaid in relation to the amount of work/education. [00:51:14] you get guys to do it for you? [00:51:29] *AaronSchulz watches the boat rock [00:51:34] kazol: supply vs. demand [00:51:36] kazol, only if you get bilked. :) [00:51:40] Which is easy, in IT . . . [00:51:52] You need a competent technical interviewer, which is sort of a chicken-and-egg problem. [00:53:03] Just read thedailywtf.com for plenty of examples. [00:53:46] I don't think most developers make good "office it guys" [00:54:35] brion: they pry just come to you because you're a nice guy. Just stop showering, i'm sure they'll get the hint. [00:55:12] :) [00:55:27] to summarize again: [00:55:30] anyhoo, i'll sign up for your "what's up next" queues. ;-) [00:55:44] 1) we need fairly little IT support, but when we do it's easiest to have someone there on site right then and there [00:55:58] 2) the result of this is, if we don't hae someone who's job is IT support, someone else on site does it instead [00:56:11] 3) that shouldn't be a senior employee with lots of other work to do [00:56:53] you need to job share it w/ something else we need [00:56:56] to cut down on costs [00:56:58] so we can either LIE and not tell the new guy that he'll be fixing peoples printers [00:57:05] or we can make it explicit :) [00:57:12] I like the former [00:57:17] hehe [00:57:21] "it's in the PD!" [00:57:44] "... and perform other various IT related tasks as assigned." [00:58:17] http://www.mevis-research.de/~meyer/MISC/di/dt970114.gif [00:58:36] me believes that it was a good idea not to apply on this job. [00:58:56] i HATE pushing printers around the office [00:59:22] :) [00:59:22] Isnogud: I have a grand total of 1 printer for 30 ppl [00:59:24] i figure i'm doing ok [00:59:52] reminds me of this office guy....hum. yes. here he is: http://youtube.com/watch?v=86g8PP0tDNs [01:00:08] really. could be me. if i would be older. [01:00:56] sorry for posting this off topic ... but it's really worth watching [01:01:51] Isnogud: LOL [01:02:01] *brion doesn't think this is the proper procedure for print screen [01:03:05] well. indeed. but ... it's kind of clever workaround [01:08:24] hmm, kinda too on-topic for this channel but [01:08:34] does anyone know if any good extensions to allow for user based access control [01:08:41] to view/edit specific pages [01:08:55] !cms [01:08:55] --mwbot-- You are advised to install an appropriate content management package if you want per-page access control and similar restrictions. See if you really want too. [01:09:02] and or so [01:10:45] k [01:11:22] ah forget it, I don't think we have a huge need for individual page control [01:11:24] EA worked well without it [01:11:32] we have usage stats on mwbot? [01:11:44] *do we [01:12:29] 03(FIXED) Disable filepath extension - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12957 +comment (10brion) [01:14:45] 03(NEW) Items not numbered correctly in several special pages in Arabic (ar) wikis - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13001 15enhancement; normal; Wikimedia: General/Unknown; (meno25wiki) [01:17:20] mwbot keeps channel logs so you might be able to generate them from that [01:18:16] brion, you know, Linker::getLinkColour now also adds the redirect class if applicable. So if the redirect class is to be added to things made with makeLinkObj, the conditional is too restrictive. [01:20:46] oh! everything you whisper to mwbot is logged? [01:20:59] If not, actually, can't it be skipped if $threshold == 0 too? [01:21:22] yep [01:21:33] @ isnogud that is [01:22:23] *Simetrical tries to figure out how to invite mwbot to #wikipedia, to cause havoc and ill-will [01:23:01] I can put a duplicate there, until we get amidaniel to relaunch it [01:25:07] well...did you ever check mwbots !wikipedia info? [01:26:44] *tawker3 sets mode +b Simetrical [01:27:51] 03(mod) Improper use of WebRequest::getIntOrNull() - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11330 (10brion) [01:29:26] Simetrical: I was just about to reply to you on wikitech-l [01:29:50] link colours are never fetched from memcached [01:30:26] $wgLinkCacheMemcached was an experimental feature that was abandoned after initial testing due to insufficient performance gains and cache invalidation problems [01:30:33] it can be removed [01:31:08] 03(mod) Items not numbered correctly in several special pages in Arabic (ar) wikis - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13001 (10brion) [01:37:15] 03(FIXED) Inputbox Comment Function Flawed - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12809 +comment (10brion) [01:45:33] TimStarling, by "link colors" you mean Title::getArticleID()? Because that's what I was seeing fetched from memcached, which means the query can't be merged, was my point. [01:45:41] At any rate I was seeing no database query for it. [01:56:54] Simetrical: yes [01:58:06] it calls LinkCache::addLinkObj() [01:58:22] which queries memcached if $wgLinkCacheMemcached is true [01:58:36] which, as I said, it never is [01:59:44] I wonder why I was seeing no query for that, then. [01:59:51] My error, probably. [01:59:56] maybe it was in the link cache already [02:00:28] LinkBatch can add its results into the link cache [02:02:54] Yes, it probably was, if I was looking at categories on an article view. [02:03:14] There's a LinkBatch done there before the actual rendering of the categories, which uses makeLinkObj. [02:06:43] which reminds me, lets get rid of all function names that end with a preposition [02:07:07] or at least not introduce any more [02:07:27] executeInto() seemed like a good idea at the time, but it kind of presupposes that you know what its arguments are before it makes any sense [02:08:20] brion, what do you think? [02:09:34] heh [02:09:41] TimStarling, Title::moveTo()? [02:09:47] OutputPage::addReturnTo()? [02:10:02] Article::insertOn()? (Actually that would be a good candidate.) [02:10:07] prepositions are great in smalltalk or objective-c method names [02:10:18] [title moveTo: newTitle] [02:10:25] Brion's guilty of a few in Revision and the associated refactor [02:10:40] Some of these have no arguments, too. [02:10:45] User::blockedFor() [02:12:30] 03(mod) Limiting sitemap items by namespace - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12860 (10brion) [02:12:31] I bought a book about XP on the weekend, I hadn't read about it before [02:13:03] it's very... touchy-feely [02:13:26] for a book about software development at least [02:14:02] Touchy-feely? [02:14:27] "Prepare for success. Don't protect yourself from success by holding back. Do your best and then deal with the consequences. That's extreme. You leave yourself exposed." [02:14:43] . . . [02:14:51] "For some people that is incredibly scary, for others it's daily life. That is why there are such polarized reactions to XP." [02:14:59] XP is so 90s :) [02:15:12] How about sections titled stuff like "Introduction to the Most Common Win32 API Calls"? [02:15:23] not that XP [02:15:29] the other XP [02:15:30] not even the emoticon [02:15:32] The other XP? [02:15:40] extreme programming [02:15:42] Simetrical: extreme programming [02:15:48] Never heard of it. [02:15:57] the world's first wiki was about xp [02:16:14] it's a philosophy of software development based on the values of communication, feedback, simplicity, courage and respect [02:16:18] 03(mod) User rights log doesn't reflect removing of sysop rights - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12925 (10brion) [02:16:24] That *does* sound touchy-feely. [02:16:59] EXTREEEMMMMEEEEEEE [02:18:03] we're a little tiny bit XP in the fact that we have weekly deployment [02:18:49] but we're not particularly XP in the way that we mostly work alone, and have virtually no unit tests [02:19:04] yep [02:19:20] every once in a while i try to add more tests, but it's pretty half-assed [02:19:35] so you don't code while cliff diving? [02:20:05] the book recommends writing tests before writing code [02:20:14] think of a feature, write its test, then make the test work [02:20:36] However, XP has been noted for several potential drawbacks,[5] as compared to more document-based methodologies, including problems with unstable requirements, no documented compromises of user conflicts, and lack of an overall design spec or document [02:20:56] we already lack most of those things [02:21:01] WE HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE, GENTLEMEN [02:22:58] well yeah, XP calls itself a "lightweight" procedure, which is the closest thing to what we're doing now (i.e. no procedure) [02:23:53] so you'd think that it would fit in with what we do better than traditional document-driven design [02:24:27] Extreme Programming Explained describes Extreme Programming as being: [02:24:29] * An attempt to reconcile humanity and productivity [02:24:31] * A mechanism for social change [02:24:33] * A path to improvement [02:24:46] yeah, that's the book [02:24:50] * A style of development [02:24:51] * A software development discipline [02:25:00] it does get concrete eventually though [02:25:21] the website is very concrete, but sometimes not so relevant [02:25:27] doesn't sound all that "extreme" [02:26:10] are there hugs involved? [02:26:24] no. [02:27:37] Adopting four earlier values led to respect gained from others in team. Nobody on the team should feel unappreciated or ignored [02:28:01] see, that sort of thing is easy to extend to our situation [02:28:09] that's what Beck calls "values" [02:28:22] there is no plan, so make that the plan? [02:28:25] but when he gets down to specifics, he sometimes gets too specific for us: [02:28:40] "All phases of an XP project require communication with the customer, preferably face to face, on site." [02:28:50] "It's best to simply assign one or more customers to the development team. Beware though, this seems like a long time to keep the customer hanging and the customer's department is liable to try passing off a trainee as an expert." [02:28:52] (from the website) [02:29:13] well you do that pretty much [02:29:33] you have to think a bit more about how that applies to us [02:29:43] one point of difference is that we use our own software [02:30:41] TimStarling: Well yes. But your Point of View is more technical on all this things. [02:30:45] so maybe we're our own customers [02:30:46] I thought XP was a model built on small teams [02:31:31] like we call our model "XP" - and it's usually 2 person teams (sometimes 3, but the other one is usually a stakeholder - not a dev) [02:31:34] 03(FIXED) Wrong archive URL in FileDeleteForm::prepareMessage() - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12935 +comment (10brion) [02:31:58] well, 2 is a bit smaller than the kind of team the book talks about [02:32:11] it talks in terms of big projects that are delivered to big customers [02:32:19] and multiple pairs of programmers than can be moved around the project [02:32:26] ok, that makes sense [02:32:39] and sounds like it could be pretty hardcore. [02:32:54] remote pair programming could be fun [02:32:58] for sure [02:33:10] *AzaTht wonders when the new parser will roll out on all other wikis [02:33:17] only if we can trade in our partners. ;-) [02:33:19] maybe I'll try to grab someone for a remote pair programming session some day [02:33:26] *AzaTht looks suspiciously at tim [02:33:49] I could see it being more long-term. I don't feel that XP is very effective w/o established norms. [02:34:19] Wikipedia has a good article on pair programming, it's the non-crap kind of original research [02:34:22] read it before someone deletes it [02:34:28] ha [02:35:47] TimLaqua: In relation, I think waterfall isn't usefull, unless you know exactly what you are going to do [02:35:52] I wonder what sort of arguments you could make about a "mw dev" - like are any of us suited for remote pairs programming? I mean we all ended up here more or less as a solo endeavor. [02:36:06] AND have most of the people working on it writing documents [02:36:58] if you follow a waterfall model, you can theoretically never produce anything new [02:37:05] traditional waterfall sdlc is like 80's IBM stuff - I think sdlc can work, but not in the traditional "plan, analyze, design, implement, maint" style - it's gotta be all sorts of circular [02:37:10] 03(FIXED) actions=raw: templates=expand is ignored if section set. - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12938 +comment (10brion) [02:37:22] if you manage to produce something new, then you phailed following the model ツ [02:37:31] TimLaqua: there's a reason why I've always been a solo programmer, and I believe it's much the same reason as brion's [02:37:40] lol. or by the time you hit implementation, it's not new anymore [02:37:46] hehe [02:37:52] s/by/if/ [02:38:08] touche [02:38:15] "i ALWAYS implement!" [02:38:28] I usually implement somewhere around the analysis phase. ;-) [02:38:30] I've never worked in a software development team [02:38:53] because I started as a hobby, where I worked on my own projects [02:38:54] TimStarling: whats MW then? [02:38:57] aren't we in one now? [02:39:11] TimStarling: is it because you're antisocial and poorly organized then? :) [02:39:14] and then moved into physics, where there were too few programmers to form teams [02:39:23] quants ftw! [02:39:27] it's only now that we have a team of sorts [02:39:44] but neither of us (brion and I) have a background in close collaboration [02:39:46] TimStarling: then you should be able to fix the quantum drift with the $1 problem ツ [02:39:48] so what are we (read: you and brion) going to do with your new team? ;-) [02:39:53] :) [02:40:04] not in the programming field at least [02:40:10] queues! [02:40:17] *brion did close collaboration in film school... this tends to lead to murder [02:40:21] TimLaqua: I couldn't see TimStarling and brion pair-program [02:40:26] there's only so much time you can spend in the edit bay before someone dies [02:40:28] can't [02:40:32] brion: film school? [02:40:52] no, if brion and TimStarling did XP, space-time would fold in upon itself [02:40:56] *brion is a USC film school drop out [02:41:06] then we'd have to find a new project to throw our time at [02:41:09] TimLaqua: XP != pair-programming [02:41:24] pfft. by your definition! [02:41:32] well, with the other parts of XP, we're mostly there already [02:41:34] no, by the definition of XP [02:41:41] it's the social part where we're way, way behind [02:41:55] someone defined xp? [02:42:01] is that allowed? [02:42:19] it's a tool for social change, TimLaqua [02:42:24] TimStarling: a couple of six-packs and some pizza will fix that part [02:42:25] omg [02:42:46] 03(mod) Activating "Makepatrol" on Italian Wiktionary - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12939 (10brion) [02:42:51] if you refere XP to Extreme Programming, then yes, it's defined [02:43:37] we still do have a very small team though [02:43:51] I do - and I always used it as: small group (2-3), very close collaboration, no sit-down type meetings, just code-review-code-review [02:43:52] this is more like Poke programming [02:44:33] no, it's code-code-code-...-code-fuck [02:44:38] :D [02:44:39] or in my case, usually code-code-code-code-code----code-review [02:44:47] so yeah, sometimes your methodology [02:44:52] as far as I can tell, XP is a collection of ideas [02:44:55] people toss around terms like "agile methodolgies" for this sort of thing [02:45:05] brion: correct [02:45:24] the agile part is just one of them [02:45:34] could call it "where no man has ever gone before programming" [02:45:48] I don't think there's any common principle from which all the ideas flow [02:45:57] TimStarling: so you're saying that XP isn't exclusively agile by nature? [02:46:02] the master mind [02:46:21] TimLaqua: it's an agile method [02:46:28] agile is a category of design methodologies which XP falls into [02:46:50] XP is more specific because it implies a collection of ideas besides agile [02:46:56] 03(mod) show warning when filesize to big of uploaded file - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12943 (10brion) [02:46:58] agile refers to that there are no strict preplanning like in waterfall [02:47:37] I always felt that XP is intended specifically to capitalize on the dynamics of very small group - and then all the accepted xp methodology is a result of maximizing benefit [02:48:01] everyone wants to maximise benefit [02:48:07] TimLaqua: XP is that you should program exactly 40 hours per week [02:48:10] the XP guy just talks as if he's the only one who knows how [02:48:20] TimStarling: hehe [02:48:47]