[00:08:17] <lymeca>	Does CGI have anything to do with logging in and sending the usernames correctly?
[00:10:18] <Louperivois>	^demon : is it accepted to use syntax :
[00:10:20] <Louperivois>	$val = (cond) ? then : else;
[00:15:17] <lymeca>	$@#&
[00:23:18] <MrSock>	i uploaded a picture, and then i overwrote it with a larger picture, and now my picture is all stretched and scaled
[00:23:23] <MrSock>	how to feex?
[00:24:24] <MrSock>	ah - nvrmind
[00:24:27] <MrSock>	it was the cache
[00:26:47] <DarkoNeko>	it often is
[00:33:57] <josch>	ah quick question: the article dbkey is stored in the page table as page_title - where is the real title without underscores stored?
[00:40:15] *Mark_vH 	gives up
[01:07:48] <MrSock>	is there any way to override visited link colors so that when certain links are clicked on, they don't change to the standard avisited color?
[01:08:31] <nn123645>	how do you get the content of a page through the API?
[01:09:07] <nn123645>	other than through the revisions module
[01:22:23] <Louperivois>	nn123645 : you don't need API for that : just use index.php?title=exemple&action=raw
[01:23:51] <nn123645>	ahh ok
[01:24:43] <Louperivois>	nn123645 : and you can use &templates=expand if you want.
[01:25:04] <nn123645>	ahh ok, nice :)
[01:40:49] <CIA-55>	03aaron * r38073 10/trunk/extensions/FlaggedRevs/specialpages/ProblemPages_body.php: Tweak thresholds
[01:41:34] <wikibugs>	03(mod) maintenance/removeUnusedAccounts. php now not delete sysops and bureaucrats. - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14929  (10plmoell)
[01:51:09] <nn123645>	Louperivois: is there any complete documentation on index.php?
[01:52:55] <Louperivois>	Yes sure. www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Index.php and www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Index.php
[01:53:42] <Louperivois>	Myself I translated the last to French.
[02:17:21] <MrSock>	hi all.  i have some template links that display in different colors.  but when you click on them, they all turn the aVisited color (blue).  Is there any way to make them ignore or override the aVisited link color?
[02:17:23] <MrSock>	thx!
[02:20:04] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Image thumbs near the articles title text on browsedata page - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14939 15enhancement; normal; MediaWiki extensions: Semantic Drilldown; (lleoliveirabr)
[02:21:58] <Louperivois>	MrSock : You could use Monobook.css
[02:22:08] <MrSock>	whassat?
[02:22:48] <Louperivois>	This is a MediaWiki UI message, overrides the default CSS.
[02:23:11] <Louperivois>	Use it like a stylesheet
[02:23:39] <MrSock>	there's no way just to make these four template headers "special"?
[02:23:44] <MrSock>	there's no magic word?
[02:24:12] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Special inclusion of browsedata on any wiki page - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14940 15enhancement; normal; MediaWiki extensions: Semantic Drilldown; (lleoliveirabr)
[02:24:33] <Louperivois>	you can restrict the CSS for some pages you choose
[02:24:52] <MrSock>	mmm... that's not quite what i'm getting at
[02:24:56] <MrSock>	let me assplain
[02:25:02] <MrSock>	i'm working on a game project
[02:25:08] <MrSock>	i'm tagging things by Phase
[02:25:13] <MrSock>	ie Phase 1, Phase 2
[02:25:49] <MrSock>	{{Phase 1}} is a template ... it's just a reusable piece of text that says <font color=orangered>Phase 1</font>
[02:26:04] <MrSock>	sorry - <font color=orangered>[[Phase 1]]</font>
[02:26:12] <MrSock>	so you click on it, and it goes to the Phase 1 page
[02:26:27] <MrSock>	but i want it to appear orange all over my wiki
[02:26:34] <MrSock>	so that the phases are all color-coded, you know?
[02:26:50] <MrSock>	but when you visit the Phase 1 page, all the Phase 1 tags turn to the avisited color
[02:27:08] <MrSock>	along with Phase 2, phase 3, etc.  So it defeats the purpose, and i lose my color-coding.
[02:31:07] <Louperivois>	I'm not sure to understand, but you can use them in each template : 
[02:31:08] <Louperivois>	<span class="TemplateForPhaseLink">[[Phase 1]]</span>
[02:31:10] <Louperivois>	And in Monobook.css : 
[02:31:11] <Louperivois>	.TemplateForPhaseLink a, .TemplateForPhaseLink a:visited {
[02:31:13] <Louperivois>	 color:#fffeee;
[02:31:14] <Louperivois>	}
[02:31:25] <Louperivois>	and purge your cache
[02:31:29] <MrSock>	hmm!
[02:31:36] <MrSock>	where do i upload monobook?
[02:31:43] <MrSock>	or is it already included?
[02:32:13] <Louperivois>	Just edit [[MediaWiki:Monobook.css]] like a CSS stylesheet
[02:32:23] <MrSock>	beautiful - thanks!
[02:32:51] <Louperivois>	it is included when you using the Monobook skin.
[02:33:28] <Louperivois>	if you want to include your code always, use MediaWiki:Common.css
[02:34:04] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Make UI easier with diff-only preference - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14581  +comment (10JSchulz_4587)
[02:34:11] <Louperivois>	you're welcome. ;-)
[02:34:13] <Louperivois>	Note that you also can use Monobook.js and Common.js files
[02:34:13] <MrSock>	sorry - i didn't understand that last part
[02:34:16] <wikibugs>	03(WONTFIX) Make UI easier with diff-only preference - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14581  +comment (10JSchulz_4587)
[02:35:04] <Louperivois>	what last part exactly ?
[02:35:15] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Draft tab does not disappear after sighting - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14561  (10JSchulz_4587)
[02:36:23] <MrSock>	dang - another dumb question
[02:36:32] <MrSock>	i can't seem to be able to edit those css pages
[02:36:37] <MrSock>	is it an admin thing? 
[02:36:48] <MrSock>	and if so, how do i find out what the admin account/password are?
[02:36:57] <MrSock>	(i own this wiki - nothing sneaky going on)
[02:38:23] <Louperivois>	yes, only sysops can edit MediaWiki: namespace 
[02:38:41] <Louperivois>	Can you access to a console
[02:38:56] <MrSock>	i can edit and upload the localsettings file
[02:39:07] <MrSock>	and i can get in thru phpmyadmin
[02:40:28] <Louperivois>	mmm. You don't have access to the maintenance directory ?
[02:41:07] <MrSock>	dunno.  how do i get there?
[02:41:09] <MrSock>	<- n00b
[02:42:56] <Louperivois>	ok ! you can use the MySQL query : UPDATE user SET user_password =  md5(CONCAT('123-',md5('newpassword'))) WHERE user_id=1;
[02:43:13] <Louperivois>	if your admin user id is 1.
[02:43:20] <flyingparchment>	i think you mean 1, not 123
[02:43:24] <flyingparchment>	(why not just write user_id?)
[02:44:26] <Louperivois>	ya, sorry
[02:44:33] <MrSock>	heh - so what do i do?
[02:45:04] <Louperivois>	MrSock : Execute this query in phpMyAdmin
[02:45:31] <Louperivois>	just customize the user id
[02:45:51] <Louperivois>	UPDATE user SET user_password = md5(CONCAT('1-',md5('newpassword'))) WHERE user_id=1;
[02:45:57] <MrSock>	ok!
[02:45:58] <MrSock>	here i go
[02:50:24] <MrSock>	hmm
[02:50:32] <MrSock>	Affected rows: 0
[02:51:50] <Louperivois>	Sure.
[02:51:53] <Louperivois>	Sure
[02:51:57] <MrSock>	is that right?
[02:52:41] <Louperivois>	what is the id of the user you want to reset password ?
[02:53:06] <Louperivois>	flyingparchment : May you peep bug 14929 and commit it ?
[02:53:59] <MrSock>	i don't know.  that's the whole reason i want to reset it, right?
[02:54:05] <MrSock>	i don't know my admin login/password
[02:55:01] <Louperivois>	MrSock : you can't view it with phpMyAdmin, on the user table
[02:55:04] <Louperivois>	?
[02:55:42] <MrSock>	i see two users there
[02:55:56] <MrSock>	how do i know which one is the admin?
[02:56:05] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Username Blacklist creates huge regexes, which could unintentionally crash PCRE - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14941 major; normal; MediaWiki extensions: UsernameBlacklist; (francine)
[02:56:34] <Louperivois>	see the user_groups table
[02:57:12] <MrSock>	i have a bureaucrat and a sysop ...
[02:57:55] <Louperivois>	if you're the alone user of the wiki for the moment you can change *all* passwords
[02:58:09] <MrSock>	no - i need more people to be involved
[02:58:25] <MrSock>	both the bureaucrat and the sysop have their ug_user value set to 1
[02:58:31] <MrSock>	sorry  <-- n0000b
[02:59:46] <Dantman>	ug_user=user_id
[03:00:28] <Louperivois>	MrSock : you will change just the passwords of actual users.
[03:01:10] <Dantman>	Waitasecond, this is about password resetting?
[03:01:17] <MrSock>	heh
[03:01:17] <MrSock>	yeah
[03:01:18] <Dantman>	Don't go mucking arround in the database
[03:01:21] <MrSock>	so back to this user tabl
[03:01:22] <MrSock>	table
[03:01:30] <MrSock>	how do i know which of those two users is the sysop?
[03:01:39] <MrSock>	i'm assuming it's the one i'm not logged in as right now
[03:01:44] <MrSock>	since i can't edit the css with that login
[03:02:07] <MrSock>	when i go into that user's info, i don't see a password field
[03:02:08] <GreenReaper>	MrSock: ug_user means "the user that has this user group entry". Normally, the initial user is both a sysop *and* a bureaucrat.
[03:02:18] <MrSock>	it says "binary-do not edit"
[03:02:26] <Dantman>	You're just going to screw up things if you mess with passwords in the database... they're hashed, they may or not be salted depending on config, and Tim has made recent modifications to the system to support better handling of passwords so you're likely to complely screw up a password by trying to edit it
[03:02:37] <MrSock>	ok!
[03:02:41] <MrSock>	so how should i do it?
[03:02:52] <Dantman>	We have a maintenace script for the purpose of password changing
[03:02:58] <MrSock>	cool
[03:02:59] <MrSock>	hit me
[03:03:13] <Dantman>	http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/maintenance/changePassword.php?revision=35923&view=markup
[03:03:16] <Louperivois>	Dantman : he don't have access to a console.
[03:03:20] <Dantman>	maintenance/changePassword.php
[03:03:34] <Dantman>	Then install the PasswordReset extension
[03:03:38] <Louperivois>	I thought that me too
[03:03:48] <Louperivois>	ok, he can try.
[03:04:01] <Louperivois>	but it can't login
[03:04:23] <Louperivois>	he only can work with the database.
[03:04:31] <Dantman>	Create a new user... give it permissions just by adding a right to him in the db, and then change the password with the extension
[03:04:38] <MrSock>	i might have access to a console.  i have no idea.  what's a console?
[03:04:56] <Dantman>	MrSock: See if your host offers something called 'SSH'
[03:04:57] <Louperivois>	a command-line interface.
[03:05:01] <MrSock>	oh - no
[03:05:05] <MrSock>	my host doesn't allow that
[03:05:57] <Louperivois>	MrSock : So chnge all actuals passwords with the query I writed
[03:06:02] <Louperivois>	*change
[03:06:05] <Dantman>	You could also always just edit the user row in the database to have a correct e-mail address and use the reset password feature for that
[03:06:50] <MrSock>	vois - i tried that query, and it said "0 rows affected"
[03:07:26] <MrSock>	dantman - that's not a bad idea.  where do i activate the password reset?
[03:07:46] <Dantman>	The login form
[03:08:47] <Louperivois>	MrSock : just use the same ids in the table and in the query. But try the Dantman idea first.
[03:10:02] <MrSock>	yeah - i like dantman's plan
[03:10:04] <MrSock>	thanks everybody
[03:12:04] <MrSock>	that worked!
[03:13:08] <Louperivois>	congratulations. 
[03:14:27] <Louperivois>	fortunatly the mail function worked. It is often a problems source
[03:14:52] <Dantman>	^_^ Mine is broken
[03:15:10] <Dantman>	Heh, need to get arround to fixing that in my setup
[03:19:23] <MrSock>	ok - so back to my original problem
[03:19:27] <MrSock>	now that i can edit common.css
[03:19:37] <Louperivois>	lol, yes.
[03:19:48] <MrSock>	i'm trying to override the avisited color with my Phase 1, Phase 2, Phase 3 and Phase 4 link templates
[03:19:51] <MrSock>	<span class="TemplateForPhase2Link"><font color=forestgreen>[[Phase 2: Boogie]]</font></span>
[03:20:02] <Louperivois>	no font tag
[03:20:07] <MrSock>	but she's-a no good
[03:20:08] <MrSock>	oh?
[03:20:10] <MrSock>	ok
[03:20:41] <Louperivois>	for choose a color use the hexa code of it
[03:20:53] <MrSock>	do i do that in the css file?
[03:21:02] <Louperivois>	exactly.
[03:21:14] <Dantman>	eeewww.... font tags are evil
[03:21:32] <MrSock>	<-- n00b
[03:21:37] <lymeca>	Hi, I **REALLY** need help with my authentication for my wiki.  I have 1.13.0rc1 and logging in was working last night, but for some reason overnight MediaWiki now detects all login attempts as empty usernames and shows the MediaWiki:Noname message "You have not specified a valid user name."  The MySQL DB is totally fine, with users in it and all pages/photos/etc. working flawlessly.
[03:21:49] <Louperivois>	yes, Never use them.
[03:22:05] <MrSock>	hrm.  still not working.
[03:22:50] <MrSock>	may i paste 3 lines of code?
[03:22:55] <Dantman>	hmmm? .TemplateForPhase2Link a:visited { color: #...; }
[03:22:56] <Dantman>	Don't
[03:23:01] <MrSock>	or am i gonna get auto-kicked?
[03:23:02] <Dantman>	Use a pastey
[03:23:16] <MrSock>	pastey?
[03:23:28] <OverlordQ>	!paste
[03:23:28] --mwbot--	Please do not paste more than 2-3 lines of text into the channel as it disrupts the flow of conversation. Instead please use a pastebin such as <http://mediawiki.pastey.net> and post a link to your paste in the channel.
[03:23:44] <MrSock>	ah - i've never heard that nickname for pastebin
[03:25:35] <MrSock>	http://www.pastebin.org/57430
[03:25:52] <MrSock>	i still have a few color names in there - just ignore them for now
[03:25:58] <MrSock>	<giggle>
[03:26:48] <Louperivois>	you purge your cache ?
[03:26:58] <MrSock>	aw crap
[03:27:02] <MrSock>	hang on ..
[03:27:13] <Louperivois>	it dosen't matter.
[03:27:33] <MrSock>	yaaaaaaaaay!!!
[03:27:38] <MrSock>	THANK YOU, fellas
[03:27:42] <Louperivois>	hehe
[03:31:18] <MrSock>	my css is terrible.  how do i override the general aVisited color across the whole wiki?
[03:31:38] *MrSock 	wonders if he can save any face by claiming he's a pro at Flash?
[03:34:11] <Louperivois>	just :
[03:34:14] <Louperivois>	#content a:visited{
[03:34:16] <Louperivois>	 color:#CODECO;
[03:34:19] <Louperivois>	}
[03:34:32] <MrSock>	beautiful
[03:34:35] <MrSock>	thank you so much
[03:34:36] <MrSock>	again
[03:34:47] <Louperivois>	for *all* elems (menus,...) delete "#content"
[03:35:04] <Louperivois>	you're yet welcome
[03:37:33] <MrSock>	oh drat ...
[03:37:51] <MrSock>	what i meant to do was to override the avisited color for everything BUT my Phase templates
[03:37:52] <MrSock>	heh
[03:37:58] <MrSock>	you know what i'm saying?
[03:38:25] <Dantman>	For that you override everything, then you override that with stuff for the phase templates
[03:38:26] <Louperivois>	yes. Put the instruction for templates *after*
[03:38:40] <MrSock>	louper - i did
[03:38:53] <MrSock>	the trouble is that the default avisited color is purple ...
[03:39:01] <MrSock>	which is the color i chose for my Phase 1 template
[03:39:11] <MrSock>	so it looks like any visited page belongs in phases 1
[03:39:45] <Louperivois>	Put the instruction for templates *after* the general instruction. 
[03:39:56] <MrSock>	i did that
[03:40:09] <MrSock>	and the general instruction overrode the templates anyway
[03:40:26] <MrSock>	(this is in the mediawiki:common.css file btw)
[03:48:38] <mboverload>	Where is the right place to ask a technical quesiton about Wikipedia?
[03:50:00] <mboverload>	When is the least load on the servers?  Is there a graph?
[03:51:41] <GreenReaper>	Hmm. There's probably a #wikipedia-tech or something similar?
[03:51:53] <Louperivois>	yes : http://ganglia.wikimedia.org/
[03:51:58] <Louperivois>	for the graphs
[03:52:26] <mboverload>	Thank you!!!!!
[03:53:01] <Louperivois>	MrSock: please send your css code in pasty
[03:53:23] <Louperivois>	mboverload:you're welcome
[03:54:31] <MrSock>	http://pastebin.com/m634c9413
[04:04:00] <CIA-55>	03shinjiman * r38074 10/branches/REL1_13/phase3/includes/ (7 files in 2 dirs): 
[04:04:01] <CIA-55>	Update the Chinese conversion tables
[04:04:01] <CIA-55>	Last minute changes for the release branch 1.13
[04:04:39] <CIA-55>	03shinjiman * r38075 10/trunk/phase3/includes/ (7 files in 2 dirs): Update the Chinese conversion tables
[04:09:12] <Louperivois>	MrSock : yes !! use #content before each instruction
[04:09:46] <Louperivois>	don't forget a:visited instructions
[04:16:19] <Louperivois>	anyone can (again) apply my SVN patch : bug 14929
[04:18:19] <Louperivois>	MrSock : ?
[04:18:44] <OverlordQ>	they'll get to it, when they get to it:)
[04:20:04] <Louperivois>	OverlordQ :  I asked because the bug is closed, it's a supplement.
[04:38:30] <Louperivois>	^demon : ah, you're come back. My patch is ready.
[04:39:58] <martman>	im trying to install mediawiki on deb stable. i thought it could use mysql or postgress bu the setpage only has mysql
[04:39:59] <^demon>	Louperivois: I'll look later.
[04:40:41] <OverlordQ>	martman: dont use the debian mediawiki package
[04:40:48] <OverlordQ>	1.7 is really old
[04:41:17] <martman>	hmmm
[04:41:29] <martman>	does that also play better with postgresql
[04:41:29] <martman>	?
[04:41:58] <lymeca>	OverlordQ: I am in need of desparate help.
[04:42:01] <Dantman>	try worse
[04:42:14] <lymeca>	I've got 1.13.0rc1 set up and running and everything was working last night.
[04:42:22] <lymeca>	here let me paste what I posted up there ^
[04:42:28] <lymeca>	Hi, I **REALLY** need help with my authentication for my wiki.  I have 1.13.0rc1 and logging in was working last night, but for some reason overnight MediaWiki now detects all login attempts as empty usernames and shows the MediaWiki:Noname message "You have not specified a valid user name."  The MySQL DB is totally fine, with users in it and all pages/photos/etc. working flawlessly.
[04:43:14] <lymeca>	MediaWiki isn't receiving any of my authentication info from any browser I try, no matter WHAT the username is.
[04:43:19] <OverlordQ>	martman: 1.7 did add PG support, but it's probably in a horribly broken and minimal state
[04:43:45] <OverlordQ>	normal authentication or like LDAP/etc?
[04:43:46] <martman>	ouch
[04:43:49] <martman>	thanks for the info
[04:43:56] <martman>	maybe ill try a fedora vm instead
[04:44:10] <OverlordQ>	using *any* distro package of MW is unsupported
[04:44:26] <martman>	that all cant be that bad
[04:44:38] <martman>	*they
[04:44:56] <OverlordQ>	probably not, but if it has problems, when getting help, step 1 will be to install a tarball version fro MW
[04:45:26] <martman>	ouch
[04:46:16] *martman 	looks up mediawikis competition incase...
[04:48:15] <OverlordQ>	you'll find that standard with any package pretty much
[04:48:28] <OverlordQ>	if a distro horribly mangles any software, then complain to the distro not hte software developers
[04:49:08] <lymeca>	martman: DON'T use Debian's MW package.  I was using it and it overwrote my LocalSettings.php file and I had to start everything from scratch.
[04:49:30] <lymeca>	I'm taking painstaking movements to get AWAY from Debian's package.  I use their Apache2, MySQL, and PHP5 packages though.
[04:49:37] <martman>	hmmm
[04:49:46] <lymeca>	OverlordQ: I usually have my users log in via LDAP
[04:49:49] <martman>	ok, im going to switch to fedora now
[04:49:52] <martman>	and give mediawiki a shot then
[04:50:03] <lymeca>	martman: I don't think that's the ideal solution, but suit yourself.
[04:50:19] <lymeca>	martman: I'd stay away from any distro's MediaWiki package
[04:50:23] <martman>	id really rather how some kind of package manager handle it
[04:50:31] <lymeca>	And for everything else Debian works wonderfully.
[04:50:35] <martman>	i wont bother with updates and i really dont have much pantience for configuring webs tuff
[04:50:39] <martman>	i always have horrible lukc
[04:51:25] <lymeca>	OverlordQ: I have my users log in via LDAP and I have a local account for Admin.  I tried my account (and other local accounts), nothing worked, even though it worked last night after I switched to 1.13.0rc1
[04:51:48] <OverlordQ>	and no changes since then?
[04:51:59] <lymeca>	OverlordQ: But now I get the same exact message for local logins and then I tried to set up LDAP extension and the same message for LDAP logins.
[04:52:08] <lymeca>	OverlordQ: A bunch of changes, all to LocalSettings.php though.
[04:52:18] <OverlordQ>	might go over what you changed in there
[04:52:22] <lymeca>	A couple to php.ini but that was just for upload filesize limits to be raised.
[04:58:39] <lymeca>	OverlordQ: Would you take a look at my LocalSettings.php?
[04:58:55] <OverlordQ>	sure
[04:59:11] <MrSock>	how do you do that thing where you make a fill-in-the-blanks template?
[04:59:54] <lymeca>	OverlordQ: http://pastebin.ca/1083791  the DB password is fake, of course.
[05:02:18] <Louperivois>	MrSock : You come back. Did you read my message for your CSS problem ?
[05:02:30] <MrSock>	oh man!
[05:02:36] <MrSock>	no - i'm falling asleep here.  sorry.
[05:02:38] *MrSock 	reads
[05:03:18] <OverlordQ>	dont see anything off hand :(
[05:03:49] <Louperivois>	quote me : >	MrSock : yes !! use #content before each instruction
[05:03:51] <Louperivois>	[00:04]	don't forget a:visited instructions
[05:04:13] <Louperivois>	end of quote
[05:04:18] <OverlordQ>	might see if anybody else has any ideas :-(
[05:05:09] <Louperivois>	OverlordQ : sorry, I don't really know ldap.
[05:05:34] <MrSock>	that's so perfect.  Thank you, Louperivois!
[05:05:54] <Louperivois>	I'm glad.
[05:08:38] <Louperivois>	so, I will go to sleep me too. I hope that tomorrow my patch (bug 14929) will be applied, mmm?
[05:08:49] <Louperivois>	bye everybody.
[05:09:20] <lymeca>	Oh damn I was going to ask him.
[05:09:36] <lymeca>	OverlordQ: Okay, well... have you ever heard of MW turning all usernames into noname before?
[05:18:03] <lymeca>	OverlordQ: Uggh, I just deleted pretty much every line I added to LocalSettings.php
[05:18:08] <lymeca>	Still broken.
[05:19:25] <OverlordQ>	so what's the error exactly?
[05:19:27] <lymeca>	No one in here has been able to help me, and this channel moves very slowly. 
[05:19:33] <lymeca>	Is there another place for support?
[05:19:42] <lymeca>	Login error:
[05:19:42] <lymeca>	You have not specified a valid user name.
[05:19:54] <lymeca>	It's the same as in MediaWiki:Noname
[05:20:16] <lymeca>	I'm pretty sure what's happening is that MW is literally not receiving or processing anything I put in the username field.
[05:20:35] <lymeca>	Hence the same message it gives you when NO username is entered in for login: Noname
[05:20:56] <lymeca>	My DB is fine, I'm sure of it.
[05:21:13] <lymeca>	So from my perspective it's likely a MW problem.  Maybe PHP, dunno.
[05:21:47] <lymeca>	OverlordQ: https://hampedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&returnto=Special:UserLogin
[05:23:48] <Splarka>	lymeca: do you have the API enabled?
[05:24:25] <lymeca>	Splarka: I don't know the answer to that question, nor how to find out.
[05:25:34] <Splarka>	you do
[05:25:38] <Splarka>	var wgEnableAPI = true;
[05:25:39] <Splarka>	var wgEnableWriteAPI = false;
[05:25:42] <Splarka>	https://hampedia.org/w/api.php
[05:25:48] <Splarka>	do you know how to send POST requests?
[05:27:42] <OverlordQ>	api gives NoName error as well
[05:28:12] <Splarka>	<form action="https://hampedia.org/w/api.php"><br><tt>name:</tt><input type="text" name="lgname" value="" /><br><tt>name:</tt><input type="password" name="lgpassword" value="" /><input type="hidden" name="action" value="login" /></form>
[05:28:16] <Splarka>	oop, it does? nm then
[05:28:20] <Splarka>	something brokened ^_^
[05:28:34] <OverlordQ>	yea dunno what tho
[05:28:52] <OverlordQ>	might suggest turning on the debug log and see if anything strange pops out there
[05:28:56] <OverlordQ>	!debug | lymeca
[05:28:56] --mwbot--	lymeca: For information on debugging (including viewing errors), see <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/How_to_debug>.
[05:28:56] <Splarka>	(oop, second <tt>name:</tt> should be <tt>pass:</tt> but nm)
[05:32:02] <lymeca>	Splarka: So your suggestion doesn't help me
[05:32:30] <lymeca>	?
[05:33:41] <lymeca>	OverlordQ: With normal PHP debugging the only thing I get is about 6 or 7 of these:
[05:33:42] <lymeca>	Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /opt/mediawiki-1.13.0rc1/w/LocalSettings.php:5) in /opt/mediawiki-1.13.0rc1/w/includes/WebResponse.php on line 10
[05:34:06] <OverlordQ>	hurm
[05:34:37] <OverlordQ>	something odd on line 5 then :)
[05:34:42] <OverlordQ>	in LocalSettings
[05:35:12] <lymeca>	line 5??
[05:35:13] <lymeca>	<?php
[05:35:17] <lymeca>	THat's what line 5 is...
[05:35:29] <lymeca>	I put the PHP debug lines above that
[05:35:46] <OverlordQ>	you wont those *in* the <?php :)
[05:35:48] <lymeca>	Because on the debug instructions page it says:
[05:35:49] <lymeca>	To see PHP errors, add this to the very top of LocalSettings.php:
[05:36:17] <lymeca>	Oh, well I thought as much but I decided to follow instructions to the letter.
[05:36:24] <lymeca>	Okay so <?php at line 1
[05:36:32] <lymeca>	and THEN I can put the 2 debug lines on 2 and 3?
[05:36:36] <OverlordQ>	yea
[05:37:34] <lymeca>	OverlordQ: Okay now there are NO PHP errors
[05:39:00] <lymeca>	Should I, I don't know, try SQL error checking?
[05:39:48] <OverlordQ>	shouldn't have a problem there, add the $wgDebugLogFile line though
[05:42:21] <lymeca>	OverlordQ: Right below the two PHP debug lines?
[05:42:22] <lymeca>	$wgDebugLogFile = '/tmp/error.log';
[05:43:07] <OverlordQ>	yea
[05:43:18] <lymeca>	When will it create the error.log file?
[05:43:25] <lymeca>	Only when an error occurs?
[05:43:38] <lymeca>	because I'm trying to log in now and no file is being created.
[05:44:05] <OverlordQ>	no should write to the log on any request, even browsing pages
[05:45:30] <lymeca>	OverlordQ: There is still no file being created...
[05:45:50] <OverlordQ>	apache probably can't write to that file then
[05:46:03] <lymeca>	In /tmp?
[05:46:12] <lymeca>	Okay... well... where should I put it?
[05:47:11] <lymeca>	I also tried in /opt/mediawiki-1.13.0rc1/
[05:47:18] <lymeca>	0_o
[05:49:04] <lymeca>	Okay, I made a new directory in / then I chmod 777ed it, then I changed user and group ownership to www-data
[05:49:19] <lymeca>	I updated LocalSettings.php to write error.log there
[05:49:21] <lymeca>	Nothing
[05:53:49] <OverlordQ>	that's, really really odd. :) I'd get a second opinion.
[05:54:13] <lymeca>	OverlordQ: Easier said than done... =[
[05:54:24] <lymeca>	Thanks for trying though.
[05:54:39] <lymeca>	My wiki is basically broken though so I think I'll just install it from scratch again.
[05:54:51] <lymeca>	I've run out of options as far as I can tell...
[05:54:56] <Lady_Aleena>	I need a longer edit summery line!
[06:20:47] <lymeca>	OverlordQ: Ugh, now I can't even set up a new MW install
[06:21:15] <lymeca>	I untarred for a fresh start, and set up everything right in the cofi.php script and every time it just says in big red bold: 
[06:21:20] <lymeca>	Something's not quite right yet; make sure everything below is filled out correctly.
[06:21:45] <lymeca>	I think there's a fundamental issue with Apache or PHP receiving input from text boxes
[06:22:04] <OverlordQ>	that does sound like a problem
[07:08:56] <josch>	OverlordQ, okay what do you say - is this a considerable change in database creation?
[07:09:09] <josch>	i dont see where this should have negative effects
[07:09:25] <josch>	as you said the table charset/collation has priority
[07:09:41] <josch>	but it has positive effects for some people
[07:10:27] <OverlordQ>	I mean, it makes sense, but shouldn't really have any adverse effects as the SQL dumps should create/select the correct encoding/collation
[07:11:08] <josch>	also true - this would be a second bugreport
[07:11:15] <josch>	the do not specify and charset at all
[07:11:25] <josch>	so the default is taken (latin1_swedish_ci)
[07:11:49] <josch>	on import
[07:12:42] <josch>	*they do not specify any charset at all
[07:23:02] <lymeca>	OverlordQ: FYI, I found out it's a PHP error
[07:23:11] <lymeca>	I think it happened when I updated some PHP packages maybe
[07:23:23] <lymeca>	I feel better, but not a whole lot better.
[07:24:10] <Splarka>	{{Lady_Aleena/saysomething|silly}}
[07:25:14] <OverlordQ>	ah :)
[07:25:16] *Lady_Aleena 	specifies a chair set: recliner. :)
[07:26:17] <wikibugs>	03(mod) MediaWiki:Rcnote at Watchlist page - 10http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14937  +comment (10niklas.laxstrom)
[07:26:18] <Lady_Aleena>	my $chairset=recliner
[07:26:51] <Splarka>	{{Lady_Aleena/saysomething|profound}}
[07:26:56] <Lady_Aleena>	That is about all I know of Perl.
[07:28:17] <Lady_Aleena>	The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
[07:28:20] <Nikerabbit>	??r
[07:29:20] <str4nd>	??r
[07:29:59] <Lady_Aleena>	Any more requests, Splarka?
[07:30:43] <Splarka>	{{Lady_Aleena/dosomething|cure cancer|invent cold fusion|invent room temperature superconductor|discover extraterrestrial life}}
[07:31:23] <Lady_Aleena>	Um, um, well, um, ah, okay?
[07:36:16] <CIA-55>	03rotem * r38076 10/trunk/extensions/Translate/MessageGroups.php: 
[07:36:16] <CIA-55>	* Removing warning about pass-by-reference.
[07:36:16] <CIA-55>	* Adding a FIXME note because a fatal error occurs in MessageGroups::init.
[07:43:20] <CIA-55>	03rotem * r38077 10/trunk/extensions/Translate/MessageGroups.php: Temporary workaround for the fatal error, no idea how it affects the extension but it is definitely better than a fatal error.
[07:43:48] <Sasoriza>	After running DeleteBatch, RecentChanges won't update. Any idea why; how to fix?
[07:52:57] <marchelly>	re
[07:53:59] <CIA-55>	03rotem * r38078 10/trunk/extensions/ (3 files in 3 dirs): 
[07:53:59] <CIA-55>	Localization:
[07:53:59] <CIA-55>	* Wikimedia Messages: Setting the meta global group pages as ignored messages.
[07:53:59] <CIA-55>	* Update for he.
[07:55:06] <Sasoriza>	re he... he re
[08:09:14] *Nikerabbit 	raises an eyebrow
[08:09:30] *Lady_Aleena 	raises a glass.
[08:09:38] *Sasoriza 	raises hell
[08:09:52] <Nikerabbit>	he really did need to use the experimental features right now so that now we cannot update betawiki...
[08:09:58] *Sasoriza 	and kids
[08:11:03] <Nikerabbit>	thanks!!!
[08:11:47] <rainman-sr>	hm, isn't he a she?
[08:12:22] <Sasoriza>	How to run updateSpecialPages.php through phpMyAdmin? or, can updateSpecialPages.php be added to Maintenance_body.php?
[08:12:45] <Nikerabbit>	rainman-sr: is he?
[08:13:05] <Duesentrieb>	Sasoriza: updateSpecialPages.php is a command line script, phpMyAdmin is a database client. they have nothing to do with each other.
[08:14:06] <rainman-sr>	hm, i don't know .. for some reason i thought so
[08:14:23] <Duesentrieb>	Sasoriza: no idea how the Maintenance extension actually works, but many maintenance scripts simply run too long to run them while a http request is waiting for response. the browser is simply going to time out.
[08:14:33] <Duesentrieb>	results on the server side would be a bit unforseeable
[08:14:36] <Duesentrieb>	!shell | Sasoriza#
[08:14:36] --mwbot--	Sasoriza#: Shell access (that is, SSH access, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSH) is highly recommended if you want to run MediaWiki. You can install without it, and basic operation will work, but even creating backups or upgrading will be painful without it. Some more involved maintenance tasks may even be impossible. MediaWiki is not designed for minimal environments.
[08:15:18] <Sasoriza>	? what's that got to do with it
[08:15:41] <rainman-sr>	apparently rotem can be both male and female, but is usually male
[08:15:44] <Sasoriza>	think someone's pinging me the wrong msgs...
[08:17:16] <Duesentrieb>	Sasoriza: you said: How to run updateSpecialPages.php through phpMyAdmin? or, can updateSpecialPages.php be added to Maintenance_body.php?
[08:17:21] <Duesentrieb>	i was replying to that.
[08:17:53] <Duesentrieb>	updateSpecialPages.php is to be run from the shell
[08:20:54] <CIA-55>	03nikerabbit * r38079 10/trunk/extensions/WikimediaMessages/WikimediaMessages.i18n.php: * Unbreak again. Something is not compatible with non-BMP characters
[08:26:54] <Jubei>	hi. I renamed all my tables in the database in preparation for the adition of a 2nd wiki and even though I put the prefix in localsettings.php the wiki refuses to work, any ideas?
[08:28:25] <Jubei>	oh never mind, it seems it works ;/ was my flaky host
[08:28:54] <Sasoriza>	Bah. Those sql guys are no help.
[08:29:47] <Jubei>	Sasoriza whats your problem? (although I doubt I can help)
[08:30:12] <Sasoriza>	Trying to force a rc update
[08:30:33] <Sasoriza>	Ran DeleteBatch and it stopped updating
[08:30:33] <Nikerabbit>	everyday it amazes me how people do the opposite we recommend and then encounter problems
[08:31:25] <OverlordQ>	lol
[08:31:31] <Sasoriza>	Nikerabbit, who are you talking about
[08:33:00] <Nikerabbit>	Sasoriza: I would guess more than half of the problems people are asking help in here are caused by that
[08:33:18] <Sasoriza>	caused by what
[08:33:38] <Nikerabbit>	doing something else than what is recommended
[08:34:08] <Sasoriza>	What recommendation? Was that directed at me?
[08:34:16] <Splarka>	"hi! I want mydomain.com/article URLs, I want a namespace only sysops can read, I want to use remote authentication, and I want to use page hit counters but I want squid cache too."
[08:34:53] <Splarka>	"I also want external links to open in new windows, and I want to enable .exe uploads"
[08:35:03] <Sasoriza>	lol
[08:35:17] <OverlordQ>	dont forget the ability to add in php code to articles that gets executed
[08:35:54] <Sasoriza>	No matter what you do, most ppl will always ask for more
[08:35:57] <Splarka>	ahh yes, and a parser function for database queries
[08:36:21] <Nikerabbit>	or running mediawiki in a host with php 4.0 and safemode and some overactive filtering and mixing files from different versions
[08:36:27] <Sasoriza>	In a way tho, can't say I blame 'em. It's about functionality.
[08:37:46] <Sasoriza>	Anyway, I'm still waiting. Was there a recommendation directed at me that I missed?
[08:39:13] <Jubei>	guys I uhm... I moved my wiki to a different folder and now it doesnt work. If i enter the path explicitly it works (i.e. japanwiki.org/en/index.php..blahblah ) but if I tner just japanwiki.org/en/ it doesnt work. What am I missing?
[08:39:38] <Jubei>	do I need to change some sort of "installpath" in the database?
[08:40:09] <Sasoriza>	Jubei: Does your script path and article path match? If so, they need to be different.
[08:41:10] <Jubei>	I'm not sure what you mean. If I type: http://japanwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Main_Page it works. but all the links on that page point to the old path, where do I need to change that?
[08:42:35] <Nikerabbit>	Sasoriza: only when using redirects
[08:43:23] <josch>	where is the article title without underscored stored in the db? (not page_title in the page table)
[08:43:50] <Nikerabbit>	josch: it isn't
[08:44:06] <josch>	darn
[08:44:19] <josch>	let me guess: it's in the article text?
[08:44:29] <Nikerabbit>	not at least until the new title-branch is finished
[08:44:34] <Splarka>	http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3451/20080415nerdsnj1.jpg
[08:44:52] <Nikerabbit>	josch: nope, there is 1-1 mapping from database to visible title
[08:44:54] <Jubei>	Splarka: lol ;)
[08:45:09] <Sasoriza>	lol, Splarka... is that your kid?
[08:45:11] <Sasoriza>	:)
[08:45:23] <josch>	Nikerabbit, you are not telling me that the page_title is just taken and underscores are replaced by spaces????
[08:45:44] <Nikerabbit>	josch: with other changes, yes
[08:46:05] <josch>	haha - so i assume one can not store underscores in the title?
[08:46:27] <Nikerabbit>	you can't have difference between space and underscore
[08:46:31] <josch>	:(
[08:46:41] <Nikerabbit>	you can use displaytitle to fix the title in some pages
[08:46:42] <josch>	i see the need for the title-branch ;)
[08:47:15] <Sasoriza>	displaytitle... grrr
[08:47:31] <Dantman>	^_^ Yay... a mention of my titlerewrite branch
[08:47:33] <josch>	Nikerabbit, can you quickly point me where i can search for the exact underscore->spaces code?
[08:47:38] <Dantman>	heh... though it really needs work
[08:47:40] <Sasoriza>	Worked for me once... not anymore
[08:48:05] <josch>	Dantman, what does it feature?
[08:48:42] <Nikerabbit>	mm our documentation sucks
[08:48:46] <Nikerabbit>	http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:%24wgAllowDisplayTitle
[08:48:58] <Nikerabbit>	but it isn't mentioned in http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words
[08:49:32] <Dantman>	^_^ Right now.... absolutely nothing... the code got to far out of sync with core so I had to restart the branch with a new one... :/ but I couldn't get any branch merging tools to work so right now it's just an out of date copy with nothing modified...
[08:49:44] <Jubei>	guys I moved my wiki to a different path on my server and now if I do http://japanwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Main_Page it works. but all the links on that page point to the old path, where do I need to change that?
[08:49:55] <Dantman>	Though there is a bit of code if you trackback a few revisions
[08:50:10] <Dantman>	That state can be seen here ;) http://titlerewrite.dev.wiki-tools.com/
[08:50:25] <Dantman>	As you can see... It's broken >.< heh
[08:50:36] <Nikerabbit>	Jubei: fix/unset $wgScriptPath, $wgScript, $wgArticlePath in localsettings
[08:50:36] <Dantman>	Though it does have a fair bit of valid work on it
[08:51:28] <josch>	Dantman, ;)
[08:51:41] <Nikerabbit>	btw, is there delete which deletes subpages, now that we have move which moves subpages?
[08:52:03] <Dantman>	Unfortunately I've got a few other projects that are far higher on my priority list than any of these other ones... so I can only get back on these kind of projects if there is someone financially backing them
[08:52:27] *Sasoriza 	throws $ at Dantman
[08:52:41] <Nikerabbit>	I want ????????? too
[08:52:54] <Dantman>	^_^ how much? I really need a laptop... this computer is seriously hindering my ability to program
[08:52:55] <Sasoriza>	Dantman/$ :)
[08:53:02] <Jubei>	Nikerabbit: thanks! ps. If mediawiki isnt on the / of the domain then I always to set wgScriptPath?
[08:53:12] <Jubei>	need*
[08:53:12] <Nikerabbit>	actually I'm probably one of the few ones who actually get it
[08:53:35] <Nikerabbit>	Jubei: if those are unset, MediaWiki should guess them
[08:53:44] <Nikerabbit>	the important thing is that they are not set wrong :D
[08:53:46] <Sasoriza>	I have a laptop... dunno if I can get my son to part with it tho :)
[08:54:07] <Dantman>	heh
[08:54:50] <Nikerabbit>	Dantman: bri/on, ti/m, smw guys(?), metavid guys(?) are there others who are paid?
[08:54:51] <Dantman>	Sorry I'm a bit demanding on machines... Nothing is going to last with me unless it has at least a dual core and a fair bit of RAM and HD space...
[08:54:59] <Jubei>	Nikerabbit: no it doesnt guess them I'm afraid. Which is weird but.. it doesnt.
[08:55:09] <Dantman>	^_^ The people who work for Wikia
[08:55:14] <Nikerabbit>	yeah
[08:55:15] <barcalex>	hi, i have a question: is there a simple possibility to download all the files of an existing wiki, to delete the online version and to upload it again like it was before ??? thx for answers
[08:55:28] <Dantman>	:/ I'd have a job there if I wasn't up here in Canada
[08:55:30] <Nikerabbit>	the social "crap"? (using their own words :D)
[08:56:21] <Nikerabbit>	so looks like that semantics, social, video and i18n are the keywords to get money
[08:56:41] <Sasoriza>	not what you know... who you know
[08:56:41] <Jubei>	barcalex: you can try exporting all the files but I think that doesnt take care of the templates (I am not sure about this, dont take my word for granted)
[08:57:07] <barcalex>	that's what i am afraid of too 
[08:57:24] <Nikerabbit>	Dantman: not something that would really make the software better in technical terms :/
[08:57:37] <Jubei>	barcalex: I think export does NOT also export template dependencies so you'll be in trouble
[08:57:56] <Dantman>	^_^ That's why you program your own stuff on the side
[08:58:00] <Sasoriza>	barcalex, can't do a backup?
[08:58:18] <barcalex>	how ?
[08:59:10] <Sasoriza>	http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Backing_up_a_wiki
[08:59:31] <barcalex>	thx, i 'll read :)
[09:01:14] <lymeca>	fglhsalauhgsgahualsuhglnjafnlglgafugfa
[09:01:18] <lymeca>	figured it out!
[09:01:22] <Nikerabbit>	I completely agree!
[09:01:25] *lymeca 	does a dance
[09:01:39] <Sasoriza>	glad somebody's happy
[09:02:54] <lymeca>	Stupid upload_max_filesize and post_max_size in /etc/php5/apache2/php.ini
[09:02:58] <lymeca>	I made them too big apparently
[09:03:01] <lymeca>	??
[09:03:12] <lymeca>	It broke all PHP processing of text in input fields
[09:03:19] <lymeca>	So no logins =P
[09:03:27] <Nikerabbit>	lymeca: too big or too small :D
[09:03:41] <lymeca>	I kept getting MediaWiki:Noname for my logins as if I had entered nothing as the user
[09:03:44] <lymeca>	too big I think
[09:04:12] <lymeca>	post_max_size = 4096M   and    upload_max_filesize = 10000M
[09:04:14] <lymeca>	or something like that
[09:04:31] <lymeca>	I don't remember... I still want users to be able to upload multi-gigabyte files though.
[09:04:34] <lymeca>	Is that possible?
[09:04:37] <Xiong>	my css isn't working and i don't know why
[09:04:44] <Nikerabbit>	lymeca: use something else than http for that
[09:04:56] <lymeca>	?
[09:05:02] <Jubei>	ok I created a 2nd wiki dir, linked the files but now the installation fails with "500 Internal Server Error". Can somebody help me troubleshoot the issue?
[09:05:04] <Xiong>	table.draw {
[09:05:04] <lymeca>	Most of the wiki activity is on a LAN
[09:05:05] <Sasoriza>	Or allow for larger file uploads
[09:05:08] <Xiong>	is in the stylesheet
[09:05:18] <lymeca>	Why wouldn't I use HTTP?
[09:05:22] <Xiong>	{| class="draw"
[09:05:26] <Xiong>	is in the markup
[09:05:37] <Nikerabbit>	lymeca: because it is not designed for such a big file transfers
[09:05:50] <Nikerabbit>	Jubei: check server error logs
[09:06:11] <Xiong>	<table class="draw">
[09:06:23] <Xiong>	is in the rendered html source, as reported by my browser
[09:06:33] <Jubei>	Nikerabbit: uhhm... ok I will look for them (on a shared hosting solution, not sure where the logs are, but will look!)
[09:06:46] <Xiong>	i've cleared my cache but the css rule still doesn't seem to have any control over the table
[09:06:57] <Nikerabbit>	lymeca: I doubt the whole process is able to handle such a big files, unless you have gigabytes of ram
[09:07:16] <lymeca>	Nikerabbit: I have 16GB of RAM and there's nt much else on the server
[09:07:31] <lymeca>	I also have 6 TB HDD space in RAID-6
[09:07:36] <lymeca>	So...
[09:07:37] <barcalex>	does someone know about this problem: since a special date i can see only every second day my whole wiki articles - my server says they have no server-problem ??? plz help
[09:07:44] <Xiong>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/wiki/User:Bear/Sandbox
[09:08:21] <Sasoriza>	Xiong, is your skin set to default?
[09:08:34] <Splarka>	Xiong: what is the rule or style you are trying to apply?
[09:08:45] <Splarka>	size, color, border, background, what?
[09:09:23] <Xiong>	i have the wiki configured to use only one skin
[09:09:48] <Xiong>	i put a few rules in there; for debug purposes, border: solid black 1px;
[09:10:18] <Xiong>	i put the css in the skin.css file, which works for other things well enough
[09:10:34] <Jubei>	Nikerabbit: http://rafb.net/p/VcEYEg38.html
[09:10:43] <Xiong>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/wiki/User:Bear/Sandbox
[09:10:53] <Xiong>	the whole table should be bounded by a black box
[09:11:03] <Xiong>	that works just fine on a simple standalone html page
[09:11:06] <Xiong>	as it should
[09:11:13] <Splarka>	Xiong: which skin.css ? http://www.beyondeuclid.com/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Scenic.css&usemsgcache=yes&action=raw&ctype=text/css&smaxage=18000
[09:11:15] <Splarka>	that is blank
[09:11:29] <Xiong>	?
[09:11:31] <Xiong>	odd
[09:11:51] <Xiong>	i don't edit the skin through the wiki, i edit it offline and upload via ftp
[09:11:56] <Splarka>	ew
[09:11:57] <Dantman>	Ack crap... I hate it when you forget a small minor but important detail
[09:11:59] <Splarka>	edit it on the wiki
[09:12:02] <Splarka>	but, anyway
[09:12:06] <Sasoriza>	Jubei, PHP5 enabled?
[09:12:12] <Xiong>	does that cause my problem?
[09:12:13] <Splarka>	I checked all your <style> and <link>
[09:12:18] <Splarka>	none seem to have the .draw {}
[09:12:22] <Jubei>	Sasoriza, uhhm... 
[09:12:31] <Splarka>	Xiong: which one should?
[09:12:38] <Dantman>	Splarka, you're the JS guy... I randomly forgot a builtin name I need... it was something like unidentified or something.... :/ JS doesn't use null for that...
[09:12:44] <Jubei>	Sasoriza: PHP version	5.2.6
[09:12:45] <Xiong>	offline editing, not editing through the wiki
[09:13:05] <Xiong>	should i create a wiki page in mwspace with the entire stylesheet contents?
[09:13:09] <Splarka>	Dantman: if(!varname) ?
[09:13:10] <Jubei>	this /zh/ is a directory which I just made and made symbolic links to my original wiki
[09:13:24] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Returned API action error should be in XML - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14942 minor; normal; MediaWiki: API; (wikiadmin)
[09:13:29] <Dantman>	Splarka, nah I'm basically trying to set something to unset...
[09:13:30] <Xiong>	and if so, should i delete the existing scenic.css file?
[09:13:47] <Dantman>	Heh waitasecond... I think I have it in the file I'm needing it for...
[09:13:54] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Returned API action error should be in XML - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14942  (10wikiadmin)
[09:14:02] <Splarka>	Xiong: point to the CSS file you've uploaded that has the CSS rule in it
[09:14:04] <Dantman>	heh 'undefined' don't you just hate it when you forget the minor things
[09:14:17] <Xiong>	can you get to it?
[09:14:28] <Splarka>	not if you don't tell us the name
[09:14:39] <Dantman>	:/ Why can't they use simple things like unset, unknown, or what happened to null?
[09:14:40] <Xiong>	damn
[09:14:41] <Splarka>	but if it isn't even being loaded, it isn't doing you any good
[09:14:54] <Xiong>	wait
[09:14:54] <Splarka>	Dan: null is different than undefined
[09:15:23] <Dantman>	^_^ I know... that's why it's annoying
[09:15:28] <Xiong>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/w/skins/scenic.css
[09:15:37] <Jubei>	Sasoriza, Nikerabbit, I followed the instructions at the steverumberg website to create a 2nd wiki alongside my original one, I am now at the point where I am trying to run the installation script at the 2nd wiki
[09:15:48] <Dantman>	You have to use a long name that is within the forgetable range instead of something simple that other languages use
[09:16:03] <Splarka>	but Dan: the easiest way to check for undefinedness is if(!)
[09:16:10] <Xiong>	the new stuff is at the bottom, of course
[09:16:13] <Nikerabbit>	Dantman: natural languages...
[09:16:28] <Splarka>	works for global vars too... if(!window.wgPageName)
[09:16:47] <Nikerabbit>	Jubei: looks like the server is complaining about too wide permissions
[09:16:49] <Splarka>	(global vars are part of the window object)
[09:17:18] <Sasoriza>	Jubei, like Nikerabbit said, fix/unset $wgScriptPath, $wgScript, $wgArticlePath in localsettings
[09:17:23] <Dantman>	I know, I was trying to set
[09:17:24] <Splarka>	Xiong: hmm, okay, I see it
[09:17:31] <Xiong>	good
[09:17:40] <Splarka>	might be a validation error
[09:17:43] <Jubei>	Sasoriza: the 2nd wiki does not yet have the localsettings file
[09:17:44] <Splarka>	er, parsing error
[09:17:56] <Xiong>	the file has some authority, it fixes the logo well enough, for example, and all the other stuff
[09:18:17] <Xiong>	i don't follow you, boss
[09:18:34] <Xiong>	validation?
[09:18:38] <Splarka>	well
[09:18:45] <Splarka>	if you have an unclosed comment for example ^_^
[09:18:47] <Splarka>	but it validates
[09:19:07] <Xiong>	yeh, i think it's pretty simple stuff
[09:19:20] <Xiong>	i'm without a clue to why it pukes up
[09:19:59] <Xiong>	i thought maybe there was some obscure .draw already defined somewhere, that i might be colliding with?
[09:20:15] <Splarka>	possibly
[09:20:17] <Xiong>	but i'd think scenic.css would take priority anyway
[09:20:22] <Splarka>	it works directly in the page source, hmm
[09:20:33] <Xiong>	yeh, the source looks just right
[09:20:45] <Xiong>	that's what really got me stumped
[09:21:02] <Xiong>	usually, i find, when tricky stuff doesn't work, it's because the page isn't rendering as i think it should
[09:21:13] <Xiong>	that it's not parsed right, especially when styling tables
[09:22:32] <Xiong>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/wiki/User:Bear/Sandbox
[09:22:35] <Jubei>	Sasoriza, Nikerabbit, got it. It was a matter of permissions. config was writeable by group/others.
[09:22:45] <Xiong>	edited down to a very simple html-only table
[09:22:53] <Splarka>	ahh
[09:22:58] <Xiong>	the same that works fine on standalone html
[09:23:22] <Xiong>	if you want to monkey with it, there's a test account: username test, no pw
[09:23:24] <Splarka>	wekk
[09:23:26] <Splarka>	well, the problem is
[09:23:31] <Splarka>	you aren't loading the right css
[09:23:33] <Splarka>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/w/skins/common/scenic.css?116
[09:23:37] <Splarka>	this is what your page is loading
[09:23:53] <Splarka>	via: @import "/w/skins/common/scenic.css?116";
[09:23:56] <Xiong>	oh god
[09:23:57] <Xiong>	duh
[09:24:04] <Splarka>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/w/skins/scenic.css
[09:24:05] <Xiong>	i'm uploading to the wrong directory
[09:24:11] <Splarka>	n00b ^_^
[09:24:19] <Xiong>	so the pages are loading with the old css
[09:24:25] <Splarka>	indeed
[09:24:27] <Xiong>	okay, i'm sold on doing it the wiki way
[09:24:34] <Splarka>	well
[09:24:40] <Xiong>	create a page, MW:Scenic.css
[09:24:41] <Xiong>	yes?
[09:24:46] <Splarka>	it is good for designing the skin, yes
[09:24:47] <Xiong>	and load the whole thing in there?
[09:24:57] <Splarka>	you can move the permanent stuff to the scenic.css later as you go
[09:25:05] <Splarka>	hmm
[09:25:07] <Xiong>	and delete the file in the /skins/common/ folder?
[09:25:10] <Splarka>	is this skin used on more than one wiki?
[09:25:11] <Splarka>	no
[09:25:14] <Splarka>	nno!!!!
[09:25:17] <Sasoriza>	Jubei, sorry... meant to ask about that
[09:25:17] <Xiong>	actually, it is
[09:25:22] <Splarka>	/skins/common/ contains all your JS
[09:25:28] <Splarka>	you need it
[09:25:39] <Jubei>	Sasoriza, dont even mention it ;) I appreciate the help!
[09:25:42] <Xiong>	i wouldn't delete the .js, just the .css
[09:25:46] <Splarka>	well, don't
[09:25:50] <Splarka>	it contains lots of important things
[09:25:53] <Xiong>	or if i leave it, will it be overridden?
[09:25:55] <Splarka>	but your scenic skins shouldn't be in there
[09:26:04] <Xiong>	not the folder, the file
[09:26:06] <Splarka>	they should be in /skins/scenic/
[09:26:20] <Splarka>	okay
[09:26:28] <Splarka>	your /skins/common folder should look exactly like: http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/skins/common/
[09:26:37] <Splarka>	with all those css/js and /images as is
[09:26:55] <Splarka>	you are creating a new skin, so the skin-specific stuff should be in /skins/skinname eg /skins/scenic
[09:26:56] <Xiong>	i didn't diddle it except to add scenic.css
[09:27:11] <Xiong>	well, it is based on cologneblue, so i followed that
[09:27:27] <Splarka>	but it is easier to test it on-wiki rather than FTP, you can even have other people help you
[09:27:37] <Xiong>	so
[09:27:52] <Splarka>	and once you get something working nice, move it to /skins/scenic/scenic.css (or whatever)
[09:27:57] <Xiong>	delete scenic.css and put the same content in MW:Scenic.css
[09:28:03] <Splarka>	well, no...
[09:28:12] <Splarka>	it is hard to explain when you are only using this on one wiki
[09:28:21] <Xiong>	well, i'm not
[09:28:25] <Splarka>	okay
[09:28:29] <Xiong>	i built up scenic for ARMS
[09:28:36] <Splarka>	then things you want common to *all* wikis using scenic..
[09:28:39] <Splarka>	you put in scenic.css
[09:28:41] <Xiong>	http://arms.x10hosting.com/
[09:28:59] <Splarka>	changes to the skin particular to that wiki go in MW:Scenic.css
[09:29:13] <Sasoriza>	stats vs. FakeMemCachedClient... wth
[09:29:13] <Splarka>	changes to content particular to a wiki go to MW:Common.css
[09:29:18] <Xiong>	okay, but i've demonstrated by-klutz that editing a MW page is wiser
[09:29:27] <Splarka>	right
[09:29:35] <Xiong>	why can't i put the whole file in there?
[09:29:43] <Splarka>	but as you design the skin, anything that scenic should always have, should go into scenic.css (but not in /common)
[09:29:47] <Splarka>	well
[09:29:54] <Splarka>	then you have to do that for all wikis using that skin
[09:29:59] <Splarka>	however
[09:30:03] <Splarka>	a black table border...
[09:30:06] <Xiong>	i already have to do a great deal of similar setup
[09:30:12] <Xiong>	the black border is only for debug
[09:30:21] <Splarka>	isn't really appropriate for either /skins/scenic/ *or* MW:Scenic.css
[09:30:27] <Splarka>	well, fair enough
[09:30:29] <lymeca>	What's the bar at the bottom called with the Privacy Policy link, Copyright, ABout links, etc?
[09:30:31] <Xiong>	when i don't know if a rule is taking effect, that's my usual resort
[09:30:47] <Splarka>	heh
[09:31:02] <Splarka>	lymeca: footer ?
[09:31:23] <Xiong>	let me go about this another way
[09:31:26] <Splarka>	Xiong: well, building a new skin requires a bit of doublethink
[09:31:33] <Sasoriza>	you have to use a memcached client to run stats?
[09:31:43] <lymeca>	Splarka: What's the page name ot edit it?
[09:31:48] <Xiong>	do i have to have *some* file in /skins/ or a subfolder nameed scenic.css, just to have the skin at all?
[09:31:55] <Splarka>	lymeca: none exists, it is hard-generated
[09:32:02] <Splarka>	you can only edit the text in it, via Special:Allmessages
[09:32:25] <Splarka>	Xiong: not really, but it would be rather sparse without, no?
[09:32:34] <Xiong>	i don't follow you
[09:32:45] <lymeca>	Splarka: Okay so if I wanted to REMOVE to privacy policy link, I'd have to go there and do it?
[09:32:51] <Xiong>	if i put the content in MW:Scenic.css, will that not work?
[09:33:05] <Xiong>	you seem to advise against it
[09:33:07] <Splarka>	Xiong: it will, but then you have to do that for each wiki
[09:33:13] <Splarka>	I am, sort of
[09:33:35] <Splarka>	you *should* have well-tested rules for scenic.css load from /skins
[09:33:42] <Splarka>	as you are designing it as a new skin
[09:33:49] <Sasoriza>	Splarka loves CSS :)
[09:33:52] <Splarka>	but, untested rules should be first tested in MW:Scenic.css
[09:33:52] <Xiong>	well, to put it another way, if i *leave* scenic.css in the skins folder and also put the same content in MW:, then the latter will override?
[09:34:00] *Splarka 	bites Sasoriza
[09:34:13] <Splarka>	yes
[09:34:29] <Xiong>	cool
[09:34:30] <Splarka>	it will overwrite, unless it is less specific, or the former has !important
[09:34:41] <Xiong>	i'll do that then
[09:34:47] <Splarka>	body table.draw {}
[09:34:55] <Splarka>	overrides a later  just     table.draw {}
[09:35:02] <Splarka>	table.draw {!important} also
[09:35:35] <Xiong>	one of my annoyances on WP is the elaborate markup with css in it, that really should be set in stylesheet, so i say
[09:35:52] <Splarka>	you mean all the inline hacking?
[09:35:56] <Xiong>	but of course the templates can be edited freely, while ppl are reluctant to touch the stylesheets
[09:36:02] <Xiong>	i'm an offender
[09:36:05] <Splarka>	well
[09:36:12] <Splarka>	it is a question of worth
[09:36:13] <Xiong>	[[Template:Divbox]]
[09:36:18] <Xiong>	very popular but a hack
[09:36:22] <Splarka>	if you have one big page with a style on each <td>...
[09:36:42] <Splarka>	is it going to be viewed enough, to warrant a 20 byte addition to Common.css, to save 50k of text from the page itself?
[09:36:55] <Splarka>	factoring in also that Common.css is cached by most visitors
[09:36:58] <Splarka>	it can be complex to decide
[09:37:12] <Xiong>	well, my own wiki has other constraints
[09:37:25] <Xiong>	efficiency in rendering is hardly an issue
[09:37:30] <Xiong>	no traffic at all yet
[09:37:38] <Xiong>	probably not much as time goes by
[09:37:39] <Sasoriza>	Damn it, I did this before... How do I rebuild db tables? Something other than maintenance.php....
[09:37:50] <Splarka>	most often, inline styles are always used, for testing, and if a convention becomes very common, it may be adopted in site-wide CSS and changed to a class
[09:38:00] <Xiong>	i want clean wikimarkup so i can *create content* efficiently
[09:38:26] <Splarka>	(sometimes of course it isn't possible to test inline, such as pseudo identifiers or things that style <img> or <a> tags)
[09:38:37] <Xiong>	well, i don't want to get into WP politics today, sorry, i shouldn't have opened that can of worms
[09:38:38] <Splarka>	mmm
[09:38:46] <Splarka>	be sure to make use of your MW:Common.css then
[09:38:52] <Xiong>	i only meant to illustrate my philosophy
[09:38:56] <Splarka>	most useful for a, img, and table cells
[09:39:01] <Xiong>	why would i tinker with common.css?
[09:39:07] <Xiong>	my wiki only has one skin
[09:39:11] <Splarka>	MediaWiki:Common.css
[09:39:19] <Splarka>	well, you should still get into the habit
[09:39:26] <Splarka>	the usual convention is...
[09:39:34] <Xiong>	ah, there we part philosophical ways
[09:39:40] <Xiong>	i've never liked skinning
[09:39:46] <Splarka>	anything that appears inside the content (that is, generated by wikicode rather than skin), should be in Common.css
[09:39:50] <Sasoriza>	Common = content, Monbook (or whatever) = presentation
[09:39:50] <Xiong>	i think a site should have a distinct look and feel
[09:39:58] <Splarka>	so if you make like <div class="infobox"> it should be .infobox in Common.css
[09:40:13] <Splarka>	but things made by the skin, the UI, including the TOC, or category list, should be in Skinname.css
[09:40:21] <Splarka>	even for you with one skin
[09:40:21] <Xiong>	i do understand your point of view
[09:40:31] <Splarka>	people wanting to borrow your CSS know to go to Common.css for content CSS
[09:40:47] <Xiong>	well!
[09:40:49] <Splarka>	they'd hate having to troll your list of @import and check each /skin file
[09:40:53] <Splarka>	okay
[09:40:57] <Splarka>	a way that helps YOU
[09:40:57] <Xiong>	i don't think i want ppl borrowing my css, really
[09:41:07] <Splarka>	it pissed me off to have to check each @import
[09:41:14] <Splarka>	if you want CSS help, do it the right way ^_^
[09:41:20] <Splarka>	ahh
[09:41:22] <Xiong>	well, i'll work on it
[09:41:33] <Splarka>	but you are under the GNU, in MediaWiki
[09:41:38] <Splarka>	your skin is derived from cologneblue
[09:41:38] <Dantman>	^_^ hiding css with @imports isn't going to work
[09:41:48] <Xiong>	oh, didn't mean to hide anything
[09:41:50] <Splarka>	people have a perfect right to use your derived CSS
[09:41:54] <Splarka>	so making it harder is no help
[09:42:13] <Xiong>	i guess i don't see the bright line between common and skin
[09:42:14] <Dantman>	;) Some of us have a way to view CSS in a page in a nice clear searchable way without reading a single @include
[09:42:22] <Splarka>	it isn't philosophical, it is just the best way to do it
[09:42:52] <Xiong>	i see a line between skin.php and skin.css
[09:42:55] <Xiong>	that's clear
[09:43:31] <Splarka>	it's like you just moved to Canada and are asking why you need to separate your recycleables
[09:43:37] <Splarka>	anyway
[09:43:43] <Splarka>	you don't have just the one skin, other skins are accessable
[09:43:44] <Xiong>	yeh, good analogy
[09:43:46] <Splarka>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Scenic.css&useskin=cologneblue
[09:44:04] <Xiong>	well, dunno, i put the others in skipskins
[09:44:09] <Xiong>	should i delete them outright?
[09:44:16] <Splarka>	no, people like them
[09:44:20] <Xiong>	i don't want to be a soup nazi about it
[09:44:34] <Splarka>	so put content&&site-specific CSS into MW:Common.css, and skin-specific&&site-specific CSS into MW:Scenic.css
[09:44:48] <Splarka>	put Skin specific CSS into /skins/scenic.css or something
[09:44:54] <Xiong>	but i don't have the time to test all content in all skins
[09:45:16] <Splarka>	right
[09:45:16] <Xiong>	see, i'm still confused -- to me, it's all of a piece
[09:45:18] <Splarka>	exactly!
[09:45:23] <Splarka>	you'll have sysops, right?
[09:45:26] <Xiong>	no
[09:45:29] <Xiong>	just me
[09:45:30] <Splarka>	none at all?
[09:45:34] <Xiong>	BE is my own site
[09:45:36] <Splarka>	well, do what you want then
[09:45:46] <Splarka>	if you had sysops, they could edit MW: css pages for you
[09:45:52] *Splarka 	goes to watch TV
[09:45:59] <Xiong>	i doubt i'll even have enough traffic to justify hiring a guy to work it for me
[09:46:10] <Splarka>	um
[09:46:13] <Xiong>	enjoy the teevee
[09:46:19] <Splarka>	Wikipedia has about 1500 sysops, and maybe a dozen employees
[09:46:24] <Xiong>	perhaps it's time for me to turn on the happy box
[09:46:30] <Splarka>	sysop < hired employee
[09:46:47] <Xiong>	well, we're at opposite ends of the spectrum, WP and BE
[09:46:56] <Splarka>	a sysop in mediawiki is someone who can delete, ban, protect, edit interface, etc
[09:47:04] <Xiong>	BE is specifically designed to turn a profit for me, personally
[09:47:06] <Splarka>	they naturally grow on any wiki that is editable
[09:47:10] <Splarka>	well
[09:47:11] <Splarka>	look
[09:47:19] <Nikerabbit>	Splarka: eh?
[09:47:33] <Splarka>	do you intend to let anyone else edit this wiki, Xiong, ever ?
[09:47:39] <Xiong>	yes
[09:47:50] <Xiong>	my current plan is to allow content editing too
[09:47:54] <Splarka>	then you will need more sysops than yourself, unless you don't want to sleep ever
[09:47:59] <vinodhrajan>	I wanna Retrieve a Password of a User from the Database of my Wiki site ?
[09:48:00] <Nikerabbit>	Splarka: last I checked *wikipedia* didn't had employees
[09:48:01] <vinodhrajan>	How do do that ?
[09:48:14] <Xiong>	but i may well close that off and allow editing only in talkspaces
[09:48:16] <Splarka>	Nikerabbit: I am trying to speak simply, you know I mean Wikimedia, shush
[09:48:18] <Sasoriza>	Splarka loves sleep too :)
[09:48:19] <Xiong>	depends how it goes
[09:48:25] <Splarka>	fuck sleep
[09:48:26] <Splarka>	who needs it
[09:48:36] <Xiong>	you're more optimistic about my future traffic than i
[09:48:37] <Sasoriza>	you do, apparently
[09:48:57] <Splarka>	Xiong: well, mediawiki is designed a certain way...
[09:49:21] <Sasoriza>	me, just give me caffeine, hehe
[09:49:28] <Splarka>	it has natural levels of users, ip vs logged in vs sysop, viewers vs editors..
[09:49:39] <Splarka>	caffeine doesn't give you more awake time
[09:49:44] <Splarka>	it just gives you contrast between wake/sleep
[09:49:47] <Xiong>	i know, i'm using a bulldozer to drive to the corner store
[09:50:06] <Splarka>	if you want editors, eventually (yes, if you ever have traffic) you may want to promote some
[09:50:08] <Sasoriza>	I find it helps me hold off
[09:50:14] <Xiong>	i've just spent so much time editing WP that MW is now basically the only content creation package i want to use, for any purpose, right or wrong
[09:50:30] <Splarka>	damnit, who can sleep when someone on the internet is wrong (<3 xkcd)
[09:50:34] <Xiong>	i detest BB markup
[09:50:36] <Sasoriza>	lol
[09:50:46] <Xiong>	and all the blogware offends me
[09:50:57] <Sasoriza>	that's the time to do it
[09:51:05] <Splarka>	heh
[09:51:15] <Xiong>	if i'd never edited, i'm sure i'd have set up BE as a blog or sth
[09:51:17] <Splarka>	okay, I'll put this very plainly
[09:51:25] <Splarka>	even if you never have any other editors...
[09:51:44] <Splarka>	if you do things the "accepted" way, when you need help the crazy unsleepless people here can help you more easily
[09:51:53] <Xiong>	i got that part
[09:52:14] <Splarka>	so put skin UI into /skins/scenic.css, put skin UI being tested into MediaWiki:Scenic.css, and put content css into MediaWiki:Common.css
[09:52:19] <Xiong>	and i just stumble over the distinction between common and skin
[09:52:25] <Splarka>	mmm...
[09:52:29] <Xiong>	skin, content
[09:52:37] <Xiong>	all css is presentation to me
[09:52:42] <Splarka>	<div id='article'>
[09:52:49] <Splarka>	if it appears in that, Common.css, if outside, Scenic.css
[09:53:02] <Xiong>	ah
[09:53:11] <Splarka>	although in cologneblue the distinction is a bit fuzzy, there is also <div id='content'>
[09:53:17] <Xiong>	you mean, any rule that applies to page content presentation
[09:53:28] <Xiong>	as opposed to presentation of the rest of the rendered page
[09:53:35] <Splarka>	pretty much, yah
[09:53:41] <Xiong>	now i understand
[09:53:46] <Splarka>	now, I don't mean default link color
[09:53:53] <Xiong>	right
[09:53:56] <Xiong>	i catch on
[09:53:58] <Splarka>	a.new {red} for example would go into scenic.css
[09:53:59] <Splarka>	but...
[09:54:09] <Xiong>	so basically, the work i already did on scenic, up to tonight, was all good
[09:54:14] <Splarka>	.greenlink a {color:green;} would go in common
[09:54:27] <Splarka>	<span class="greenlink">[[wibble]]</span>
[09:54:32] <Splarka>	a class that users could use, in wikicode
[09:54:36] <Splarka>	yep
[09:54:56] *Splarka 	watches the TV watch itself
[09:55:02] <Sasoriza>	cita tion nee ded
[09:55:05] <Xiong>	i diddled the link colors, fiddled with the top bar, stuck the logo where i wanted it -- that all in the skin
[09:55:12] <Splarka>	yep!
[09:55:28] <Xiong>	so until i woke up tonight, i was doing fine
[09:55:46] <Xiong>	once more, we learn how dangerous it is to get out of bed
[09:56:17] *Sasoriza 	doesn't sleep in bed. Ever.
[09:56:43] <Xiong>	and the other thing you say is, i shouldn't put scenic.css in /common/ but in /scenic/
[09:56:55] <Xiong>	same for Scenic.php?
[09:58:36] <Xiong>	i was misled by finding cologneblue.css in /common/
[09:58:47] <Xiong>	i think i should leave Scenic.php where it is
[09:59:08] <Splarka>	Scenic.php should be in /skins/ I think?
[09:59:09] <Splarka>	*shrug*
[09:59:17] <Splarka>	well
[09:59:27] <Xiong>	well oops
[09:59:31] <Splarka>	if you're basically copying cologneblue it can probably go into /common/
[09:59:39] <Xiong>	because moving scenic.css to /scenic/ broke it
[09:59:39] <Splarka>	but it seems dirty (so does cologneblue)
[09:59:43] <Splarka>	heh
[10:00:01] <Xiong>	yes, i think you're thinking of the "modern", monobook approach
[10:00:05] <Splarka>	well, look at monobook... /skins/Monobook.php and /skins/monobook/main.css
[10:00:18] <Xiong>	with scenic based on cologneblue, maybe i should stick to that way
[10:00:42] <Splarka>	not using Skin and SkinTemplate can leave you out of some features
[10:00:48] *Duesentrieb 	eyes his skin revamp... merge will have to wait until next weekend...
[10:00:59] <Splarka>	any way to base your skin on monobook? it isn't very different in the bare sense
[10:01:05] <Xiong>	dunno but i think i don't like most of those features
[10:01:11] <Splarka>	so ignore them, lemme show you
[10:01:21] <Xiong>	i'm instinctively hostile to monobook, perhaps foolishly
[10:01:28] <Splarka>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?useskin=myskin
[10:01:44] <Splarka>	this is what Monobook looks like with no css
[10:01:47] <Xiong>	i think it got me riled up years ago, with the background image that you can't hardly see anyway but takes forever to load
[10:01:48] <Duesentrieb>	not using the skintemplate architecture means that extensions can't really hook into your skin
[10:02:17] <Duesentrieb>	Xiong: look at monobooks mackbone without the styles. consider it.
[10:02:18] <Splarka>	Duesentrieb: sure, some can, like your gadgets ^_^
[10:02:22] <Duesentrieb>	Xiong: that's basically what MySkin is
[10:02:23] <Splarka>	but most authors are just lazy
[10:02:30] <Splarka>	indeed
[10:02:35] <Xiong>	mackbone?
[10:02:40] <Splarka>	you can make a monobook skin that looks nothing like monobook, very easily
[10:02:41] <Duesentrieb>	Splarka: hm? Gadgets hooks into skins?
[10:02:46] <Splarka>	here is a blank page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BlankPage?useskin=myskin
[10:03:08] <Xiong>	well, i'm looking over the last link you sent
[10:03:10] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Make DPL extension aware of FlaggedRevs for use on Wikinews - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14943 15enhancement; normal; MediaWiki extensions: DynamicPageList; (brian.mcneil)
[10:03:16] <CIA-55>	03jhsoby * r38080 10/trunk/extensions/WikimediaMessages/WikimediaMessages.i18n.php: 
[10:03:16] <CIA-55>	* Fixing typo from r38071
[10:03:16] <CIA-55>	* Unignoring grouppage messages; they can be translated if the pages on Meta have been translated. Will add that to /qqq.
[10:03:34] <Splarka>	Duesentrieb: oop, I thought it loaded in all skins, maybe not
[10:03:44] *Splarka 	whips Dues
[10:04:12] <Splarka>	hmm, no, it does
[10:04:27] <Duesentrieb>	Splarka: i think it does no (didn't initially), but adding ascripts ot the header is hardly hookin into the skin. i was thinking of modifying naviagtion items, or the way categories are listed. stuff like that
[10:04:38] <Splarka>	ahh, yah
[10:04:40] <Duesentrieb>	when i commit my changes, that stuff will get a while lot better anywax :)
[10:04:43] <Splarka>	the non-template skins suck for that
[10:04:46] <Duesentrieb>	(for skintemplate skins)
[10:05:19] <Splarka>	Xiong: anyways, I think you'd be better off using Monobook's architecture, for compatability with skins. You do not need to use the style at all
[10:05:29] <Splarka>	er with extensions
[10:05:45] <CIA-55>	03shinjiman * r38081 10/ (12 files in 4 dirs): 
[10:05:45] <CIA-55>	Update the Chinese conversion tables
[10:05:45] <CIA-55>	Last minute changes for the release branch 1.13
[10:05:56] <Duesentrieb>	yea. at least use skintemplate (even if it's a bit nasty), and maybe even use monobook as the basis
[10:06:08] <Duesentrieb>	never mind the style stuff
[10:06:11] <Splarka>	right
[10:06:47] <Sasoriza>	Do you have to have a memcached client enabled to use FakeMemCachedClient?
[10:07:31] <Xiong>	dunno, there is enough involved in a whole port from cologneblue-based to monobook-based that i would probably pay cash to have it done
[10:07:34] <Xiong>	i know my limits
[10:07:44] <Xiong>	i need to concentrate on content, not all the admin stuff
[10:07:50] <Sasoriza>	talk to Dantman, he needs it
[10:07:52] <Xiong>	no content, no site, really
[10:08:08] <Splarka>	Xiong: do you have mozilla/FF?
[10:08:24] <Xiong>	in a way, it's kinda dumb for me to set it up as a MW wiki, it's taking forever to configure the thing
[10:08:32] <Xiong>	while the content is waiting to go up
[10:08:40] <CIA-55>	03siebrand * r38082 10/trunk/phase3/languages/messages/MessagesEn.php: Fix typo in message text.
[10:08:46] <Splarka>	if so, try this magic trick
[10:08:51] <Splarka>	1) go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BlankPage?useskin=myskin
[10:08:52] <Xiong>	splarka, you do not want to know what i use as my main computer
[10:08:56] <Xiong>	you will freak
[10:09:02] <Splarka>	2) in the URL bar, paste: javascript:void(importStylesheetURI('http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/monobook/main.css?164'))
[10:09:12] <Dantman>	Solaris?
[10:09:13] <Splarka>	heh, I use windows 98 and my browser is Mozilla from 2001
[10:09:24] <Sasoriza>	!!!!!!!
[10:09:24] --mwbot--	I don't know anything about "!!!!!!".
[10:09:33] <Dantman>	:/
[10:09:39] <Splarka>	but if you have a firefox browser, try the magic trick above
[10:09:54] <Sasoriza>	Wow, I thought I was behind the times...
[10:10:11] <Xiong>	mac G3 beige, os 9.2.2, mozilla 1.2.1
[10:10:25] <Splarka>	monobook is a blank columnar blob, every piece of style is in /skins/monobook/main.css
[10:10:27] <Xiong>	i'm just one step ahead of the colecovision holdouts
[10:10:38] <Splarka>	the trick will work in your mozilla
[10:10:42] <Splarka>	mine is 0.6 something
[10:11:22] <Splarka>	but anyway, it is just trying to illustrate how bare-bones monobook is without that one stylesheet
[10:11:25] <Sasoriza>	Once again: Do you have to have a memcached client enabled to use FakeMemCachedClient?
[10:11:41] <Splarka>	Sasoriza loves asking unanswerable questions
[10:12:16] <Xiong>	well, i have done as you suggested
[10:12:16] *Sasoriza 	stuffs Splarka with No-Doze... and a free copy of Vista/FF3
[10:12:33] <Splarka>	ew
[10:12:42] <Xiong>	and i am now looking at a blank page with the site logo overlapping the page contents
[10:12:50] <Dantman>	^_^ I'll take that if it comes with a dual-core and hardware...
[10:12:52] <Splarka>	Xiong: no workie? well nm then, was trying to be clever ^_^
[10:13:20] <Xiong>	that's okay, thanks a million
[10:13:44] <Xiong>	you noticed my stupidity is putting my updated file in the wrong place instead of overwriting the existing
[10:13:51] <Xiong>	which was the whole immediate issue
[10:14:07] <Xiong>	and i'll try experiments in MW: space and see how that goes
[10:14:28] <Sasoriza>	Xiong: z-index
[10:14:40] <Xiong>	and i guess, if i get table.draw working, i'll edit common.css instead
[10:14:50] <Xiong>	z-index?
[10:14:54] <Xiong>	i know what that does
[10:14:59] <Xiong>	but i don't follow you
[10:15:04] <Sasoriza>	for the logo
[10:15:22] <Xiong>	you think i should set a z-index for my logo?
[10:15:32] *Sasoriza 	shrugs
[10:15:40] <Sasoriza>	just a notion
[10:15:55] <Xiong>	right now, it's absolutely positioned
[10:16:10] <Xiong>	and it displays on top of the topbar
[10:16:12] <Sasoriza>	you said it was overlapping
[10:16:34] <Xiong>	not on my wiki, on the blank page splarka was pointing me to
[10:16:40] <Sasoriza>	oic
[10:16:44] <Xiong>	not my problem
[10:17:01] <Xiong>	or more likely, an issue with my antique browser
[10:17:04] <Xiong>	dunno, don't care
[10:17:16] <lymeca>	Anyone experienced with the FCKeditor MW extension?
[10:17:22] <Splarka>	what year is your 1.2.1 release?
[10:17:31] <Xiong>	actually, i'm not overlapping topbar in BE
[10:17:36] <Xiong>	but i do that in ARMS
[10:17:41] <Xiong>	http://arms.x10hosting.com/
[10:17:42] <lymeca>	Mine's working but has bad performance starting up
[10:17:45] <Xiong>	same skin
[10:17:58] <Xiong>	what year? dunno, 1870
[10:18:01] <Sasoriza>	mw handles css weird, sometimes
[10:18:15] <Xiong>	sez 2002
[10:18:34] <Splarka>	odd it works in mine
[10:18:42] <Xiong>	i also have icab, which is the only browser still being maintained for os 9
[10:18:47] <Splarka>	heh
[10:19:05] <Xiong>	don't prefer it tho
[10:19:24] <Xiong>	i just resort to it when i can't see a site in mozilla
[10:19:41] <Xiong>	some js crashes mozilla, icab has a nice watchdog feature
[10:19:46] <Splarka>	that is what view-source and Splarka/Brain-parser 1.0 is for
[10:19:55] <Xiong>	so if the js spins into a loop, icab will let you break out
[10:20:06] <Xiong>	while mozilla just hangs the whole machine or crashes
[10:20:31] <Xiong>	this box is at the end of its useful life -- some would say, 5 years beyond it
[10:20:44] <Xiong>	i've already faced up to the need to abandon ship
[10:20:46] <Sasoriza>	yeah, but for mac
[10:21:01] <Xiong>	fuck steve
[10:21:01] <Splarka>	some would say most boxes are at the end of their useful life before exiting the assembly line
[10:21:15] <Xiong>	i've been his bitch since 1984
[10:21:15] <Sasoriza>	yep
[10:21:36] <Xiong>	and he's rewarded my loyalty with nothing but the short end of a long pole
[10:21:37] <Splarka>	which Steve specifically?
[10:21:46] <Xiong>	jobs
[10:22:04] <Xiong>	i bought the first mac in 1984
[10:22:13] <Xiong>	i've never owned another brand of machine
[10:22:18] <Sasoriza>	Hey... "Love what you do."
[10:22:22] <CIA-55>	03jhsoby * r38083 10/trunk/extensions/Translate/groups/mediawiki-defines.txt: * Rv. ignoring of global group pages from r38078 (as explained in r38080)
[10:22:23] <Xiong>	i've had at least a dozen macs over the years
[10:22:37] <Xiong>	and i have 3 or 4 in storage, besides the one on my desk
[10:22:47] <Splarka>	but Wozniak never takes his turns with you anymore?
[10:22:50] <Xiong>	i have an ibook, too, which recently shit its os and now won't boot
[10:23:09] <Xiong>	i've worked for apple computer *twice*
[10:23:23] <Xiong>	and i've given jobs as much as he's going to get
[10:23:40] <Splarka>	well, you've got to hand [it to] jobs
[10:23:49] <Sasoriza>	I'm confused. You're on a mac, and say fuck Steve?
[10:23:56] <Xiong>	i was one of the original fanatics, beating windoz owners in the alleys
[10:24:05] <Xiong>	that's right
[10:24:22] <Xiong>	os x was a mistake and the move to intel, the end
[10:24:32] <Sasoriza>	ah
[10:24:38] <Splarka>	heh
[10:24:40] <Splarka>	that was so funny
[10:24:52] <Xiong>	the honest thing to do was to admit that mac os had lost the war
[10:24:55] <Splarka>	my last Intel machine died in 95~ or so, from then on I was AMD all the way
[10:25:03] <Xiong>	and sell a true linux-based machine
[10:25:21] <Xiong>	i worked at amd once, too
[10:25:26] <Splarka>	mac users would say "PC sucks" and I'd say "you're on a PC".. "well, wintel sucks!" "I don't use intel"
[10:25:30] <Splarka>	and now I can append to that "but you do"
[10:25:40] <Sasoriza>	hehe
[10:25:49] <Xiong>	going to intel was the last straw for me, jobs can take it and shove it
[10:25:58] <Xiong>	i'm not drinking the kool-aid anymore
[10:26:11] <Xiong>	i'm buying a generic intel box and putting linux on it
[10:26:15] <CIA-55>	03shinjiman * r38084 10/trunk/phase3/languages/messages/ (4 files): Localisation updates Cantonese, Chinese and Old/Late Time Chinese
[10:26:20] <Xiong>	i figure the transition will only take a year or two
[10:26:35] <Nikerabbit>	this looks like off-topic black-n--white discussion
[10:26:41] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Proposal: introduce an expiry time for the temporary password - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2242   +need-review (10titoxd.wikimedia)
[10:26:55] <Xiong>	well, sorry
[10:27:06] <Xiong>	i've labored long enough with my ancient box
[10:27:24] <Xiong>	i rarely mention it anymore
[10:27:29] <Xiong>	splarka asked
[10:28:00] <Nikerabbit>	there is seldom such things as "totally good" or "totally bad"
[10:28:27] <Xiong>	um, my box is not totally bad
[10:28:38] <Xiong>	but it is way past time to move on
[10:28:46] <CIA-55>	03rotem * r38085 10/trunk/extensions/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Making the group pages optional to translate.
[10:28:53] <Sasoriza>	With all the move toward uniformity, everything should be... well... uniform. But omnifuctional.
[10:29:11] *Splarka 	grins
[10:29:31] <Splarka>	Nikerabbit: it is on topic, Xiong's browser isn't supporting a mediawiki-specific css/js trick
[10:29:36] <Splarka>	but it is wandering tangently
[10:30:19] <Xiong>	well the important thing is, following your advice works
[10:30:27] <Xiong>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/wiki/User:Bear/Sandbox
[10:30:59] <Xiong>	although to get the results i want, more work is ahead
[10:31:39] <Jubei>	anybody have any idea where I can get the search-redirect.php file that wikipedia uses to redirect searches from the main page?
[10:33:11] <Sasoriza>	Xiong, is arms for autistic culture?
[10:33:48] <Guido_d_Br>	Hi, how do I change the hover text of my logo? MonoBook.php currently says <?php echo $skin->tooltipAndAccesskey('n-mainpage') ?>
[10:36:04] <Guido_d_Br>	The manual says change replace <?php $this->msg('mainpage') ?> but there is no such line in MonoBook.php
[10:37:15] <CIA-55>	03siebrand * r38086 10/trunk/extensions/ (5 files in 3 dirs): 
[10:37:15] <CIA-55>	* fix trailing whitespace in SubstAll
[10:37:15] <CIA-55>	* add header to i18n file for SubstAll
[10:37:15] <CIA-55>	* add SubstAll to Translate
[10:37:15] <CIA-55>	* add special page alias localisation for SpamRegex to Translate
[10:38:32] <Splarka>	Guido_d_Br: looks like you edit MediaWiki:Tooltip-n-mainpage
[10:38:51] <Splarka>	(I wonder why it isn't Tooltip-p-logo actually, ahh well)
[10:38:58] <Sasoriza>	what's that sidebar .js called again
[10:39:04] <Splarka>	sidebar js?
[10:39:12] <Splarka>	you mean to add links? addPortletLink()
[10:39:17] <Sasoriza>	not that... forgot what it was, with the tooltips
[10:40:35] <Guido_d_Br>	Testing ...
[10:42:44] <Splarka>	Sasoriza: I think that is long-since deprecated
[10:42:50] <Splarka>	but maybe it still works
[10:43:07] <Sasoriza>	yeah, seems that way
[10:43:40] <Sasoriza>	just hate when I forget something... which is happening more and more (Alzheimers)
[10:43:46] <Guido_d_Br>	Hmmm, it still adds [alt-z] wich I don't want
[10:43:51] <CIA-55>	03siebrand * r38087 10/trunk/extensions/SubstAll/SubstAll.i18n.php: Remove period in description
[10:44:11] <Xiong>	sorry sasoriza
[10:44:15] <Xiong>	putting on my shoes
[10:44:20] <Splarka>	Guido_d_Br: do you want to actually disable the alt-z shortcut?
[10:44:25] <Sasoriza>	np
[10:44:30] <Xiong>	talking about jobs got me all riled up, i'm gonna go out
[10:44:57] <Xiong>	ARMS is just what it says: Autistic Railroad Model Society
[10:45:06] <Sasoriza>	I'll send him a letter :)
[10:45:07] <CIA-55>	03siebrand * r38088 10/trunk/extensions/Translate/groups/mediawiki-defines.txt: Add optional for SubstAll
[10:45:25] <Splarka>	Guido_d_Br: MediaWiki:accesskey-n-mainpage
[10:45:30] <Xiong>	damn, i thought i wrote a page on it
[10:45:50] <Xiong>	i did, but i didn't link it where i thought
[10:45:58] <Guido_d_Br>	Yep, just found it
[10:46:04] <Sasoriza>	send me the link when you find it
[10:46:05] <Xiong>	http://arms.x10hosting.com/wiki/Rule%3A02
[10:46:14] <Sasoriza>	woo, quick
[10:46:50] <Sasoriza>	I know someone who might be interested
[10:47:08] <Xiong>	unlike BE, which is my personal site, ARMS is intended to be a community
[10:47:26] <Sasoriza>	good luck w/that
[10:47:35] <Guido_d_Br>	Tried blanking it, forgot that that doesn't work. Can I safely delete the page?
[10:47:39] <Xiong>	so it has to have rules; it can't just be all mine and i decide everything on a case-by-case basis
[10:48:06] <Xiong>	i really do not like writing rules, though; and i'd prefer not to be boss, either
[10:48:23] <Xiong>	getting halfway through the rules left such a bad taste in my mouth, that project is on hold
[10:49:16] <Splarka>	Guido_d_Br: try '-' maybe?
[10:49:33] <CIA-55>	03siebrand * r38089 10/trunk/extensions/Translate/Translate.i18n.php: Update 'translate-tag-fuzzy-reason'
[10:49:49] <Xiong>	sasoriza: feel free to link your friend
[10:50:16] <Xiong>	the rules are mostly in place, so there's no reason for anyone not to join and build
[10:50:28] <CIA-55>	03siebrand * r38090 10/trunk/extensions/Translate/Translate.i18n.php: Update 'translate-tag-fuzzy-comment'
[10:50:30] <Sasoriza>	Just emailed her :)
[10:50:37] <Xiong>	and the sooner the community gets stakeholders, the sooner i can move out of the boss seat
[10:50:59] <Xiong>	now i really need to get in the car
[10:51:07] <Xiong>	fresh air and hot food
[10:51:24] <Xiong>	thanks for your interest
[10:52:12] <Guido_d_Br>	Tried &nbsp, that still leaves [alt- ] at the end of the hover text
[10:52:17] <Splarka>	Guido_d_Br: - (dash) works
[10:52:26] <Sasoriza>	Drive safe
[10:53:02] <Guido_d_Br>	Yes, it's ok now. Thanks, Splarka!
[10:53:28] <CIA-55>	03siebrand * r38091 10/trunk/extensions/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Updates for WikimediaMessages extension localisation
[10:54:32] <Guido_d_Br>	Oops. Spoke too soon. Now in the navigation table, 'main page' also has the new hove text, which is not my intention
[10:55:30] <Splarka>	well, they both get the same text
[10:55:33] <CIA-55>	03siebrand * r38092 10/trunk/extensions/WikimediaMessages/WikimediaMessages.i18n.php: Updates for WikimediaMessages extension localisation
[10:55:40] <Splarka>	which is probably a bug
[10:56:19] <Sasoriza>	what the heck is FakeMemCachedClient
[10:56:20] <Guido_d_Br>	If I understand it correctly, I should make new pages MediaWiki:Tooltip-n-logo (and Accesskey) and use these in MonoBook.php?
[10:56:35] <Splarka>	tooltip-p-logo and accesskey-p-logo both exist, but do not seem to be used
[10:56:37] <Sasoriza>	er, I mean, I know what it is, but....
[10:56:47] <Splarka>	brb
[10:56:48] <Sasoriza>	how to enable it
[10:58:06] <Duesentrieb>	Sasoriza: i think that is what is used oer default, no?
[10:58:12] <Duesentrieb>	just store objects in php's memory?
[10:58:28] <svip>	Is there a feature in the ParserFunctions to calculate time between dates?
[10:59:15] <Sasoriza>	What happened to TimLaqua?
[10:59:52] <Splarka>	svip: yes
[11:00:06] <ZorroIII>	svip: I use to convert to seconds and do the calculation, then convert back
[11:00:08] <svip>	!
[11:00:26] <svip>	Well, I am only nervous about leap years, really.
[11:00:48] <Splarka>	#date
[11:01:31] <Splarka>	yes, leap years are then automagically accounted for
[11:01:42] <Splarka>	(but then only works for epoch times, since 1970)
[11:02:00] <Splarka>	but see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Age
[11:02:11] <ZorroIII>	the world didn't exist before 1970
[11:02:19] <Splarka>	oop #time
[11:02:19] <Splarka>	heh
[11:02:27] <Sasoriza>	WP templates... what a nightmare
[11:02:46] <Guido_d_Br>	Yes!!! It works
[11:03:02] <Splarka>	it does? hmm
[11:03:27] <ZorroIII>	svip: I have a way to complicated time calculation on http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Tipping
[11:03:40] <Jhs>	ZorroIII, {{citation needed}}; i have no valid proof that the world existed before 1988.
[11:04:07] <ZorroIII>	(it estimates when nowiki will have n number of articles, based on current rate)
[11:04:25] <Guido_d_Br>	So, to summaraize, in MonoBook.php, I changed 'n-mainpage' into 'n-logo' and made the two wikipages for that
[11:04:57] <ZorroIII>	Jhs: Did you check the AG3 you used in the military? what timestamp did it have? ;)
[11:05:08] <Jhs>	it was forged by the PST.
[11:05:17] <Jhs>	and the mafia
[11:05:37] <Splarka>	Guido_d_Br: the content of MediaWiki:Mainpage is used for many things
[11:06:22] <Splarka>	as the page shown in the sidebar link (by default anyway), the logo link, the page shown if no title is specified, as the wgPageName of a bare diff (sometimes), on some other errors too
[11:06:34] <CIA-55>	03nikerabbit * r38093 10/trunk/extensions/Translate/groups/MediaWikiExtensions.php: * Fix warning
[11:08:21] <Sasoriza>	Jhs, I can tell you for a fact that it did :)
[11:08:32] <Sasoriza>	ZorroIII, got that in en?
[11:08:34] <Jhs>	but why should i trust you?
[11:08:56] <CIA-55>	03siebrand * r38094 10/trunk/phase3/languages/messages/ (30 files): Localisation updates for core messages from Betawiki (2008-07-27 12:58 CEST)
[11:09:12] <ZorroIII>	Sasoriza: no, but it isnt that hard to read ;)
[11:12:05] <ZorroIII>	142,55 artikler per d??gn <-- articles pr day, 5 782,88 d??gn <-- time to reach 1000000 articles, 27. mai 2024 08:13. <-- date when that happens
[11:12:31] <Sasoriza>	lol
[11:12:49] <Sasoriza>	the world will probably end before then
[11:12:51] <Guido_d_Br>	Splarka: yes, but this is the tooltip text
[11:12:57] <ZorroIII>	2024? NAH
[11:13:18] <Splarka>	k
[11:13:26] <Guido_d_Br>	I have now created a separate tooltip text for the logo
[11:13:37] <Splarka>	but then only the link in the navigation will have the alt-z shortcut, no other mainpage links made
[11:13:56] <Splarka>	(which is probably what you want)
[11:14:03] <Guido_d_Br>	:-)
[11:14:40] <Guido_d_Br>	Since the logo no longer links to the main page, the hover text needed to change :)
[11:14:53] <CIA-55>	03siebrand * r38095 10/trunk/extensions/ (144 files in 133 dirs): Localisation updates for extension messages from Betawiki (2008-07-27 12:58 CEST)
[11:16:02] <Splarka>	Guido_d_Br: what happens if you specify no page title though? do you get to the main page or another page?
[11:16:51] <Sasoriza>	enabling miser mode: good idea or no?
[11:18:25] <Splarka>	do you get 5 edits a second?
[11:18:35] <Sasoriza>	nope
[11:18:47] <Splarka>	with miser mode off, expensive procedures are done on every edit
[11:18:51] <Sasoriza>	ah
[11:18:59] <Splarka>	or much more frequently, anyway
[11:19:13] <Sasoriza>	just trying to deduce how to updateSpecialPages.php without command line
[11:19:22] <Splarka>	often, once those updates take longer than the time between each average edit, it is time to turn on miser mode
[11:19:32] <Splarka>	mmm
[11:19:50] <Splarka>	JSharp/Dantman: what ever happened to that extension to update special pages on demand?
[11:20:00] <Dantman|afk>	No clue
[11:22:55] <JSharp>	not sure we had one? what was it called?
[11:24:04] <Splarka>	it was Special:RefreshSpecial or something
[11:24:16] <Splarka>	was half-written when I'd left, IIRC
[11:25:22] <Sasoriza>	http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:RefreshSpecial_forthcoming,_comments/ideas%3F
[11:27:25] <JSharp>	I don't think it was ever actually implemented
[11:27:29] *JSharp 	will ask about it
[11:28:10] <Dantman>	Actually, well there was a little bit of code
[11:28:25] <Dantman>	Just lookatit yourself
[11:28:45] <vinodhrajan>	Hi. I wanna Add a Table to the Existing Database. And Manipulate/View the Table Via Wiki. How to do this ?
[11:28:57] <Sasoriza>	Dantman, where?
[11:30:47] <Dantman>	Hmmm dissapeared
[11:32:06] <Reedy>	vinodhrajan, dont think you can
[11:32:17] <Reedy>	You'll need phpmyadmin or some sort of similar db admin tool
[11:32:36] <vinodhrajan>	Ya. Its my site :)
[11:32:54] <vinodhrajan>	I have server access. The problem is integrating the Table with Wiki..
[11:33:02] <Reedy>	right...
[11:33:54] <Sasoriza>	sql tables?
[11:34:01] <vinodhrajan>	ya 
[11:34:08] <Sasoriza>	don't think you can
[11:34:14] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) escapeshellcmd does not work properly with php security update - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14944 04BLOCKER; normal; MediaWiki: Images; (daniel)
[11:34:15] <Guido_d_Br>	I guess you have to create an array
[11:34:25] <Sasoriza>	and probably not a good idea afaik
[11:37:42] <vinodhrajan>	ok. But Is it possible to retrieve the Password of a User, directly from the Database ?
[11:38:58] <Splarka>	if you've got password hashing and salting on, it'll probably take you longer than the age of the universe to retrieve it, but you can replace it
[11:39:16] <Sasoriza>	anyone ever used pseudo-cron?
[11:40:11] <Subfader>	I installed the SecurePHP extension to be able to add php to articles. Is code like <?php global $wgUser; if( $wgUser->isAllowed('undelete') ) { echo('bla');} ?> which is working in the skin not working in articles?
[11:40:59] <Subfader>	when i add it 'bla' is hidden nontheless which work in teh skin though
[11:45:43] <vinodhrajan>	Is viewing/updating SQL Tables not possible even by writing Extensions ?
[11:46:16] <Guido_d_Br>	It must be, since there is even a IPB/Wiki combo
[11:46:20] <MinuteElectron>	it is not possible to retreieve the passwor ever
[11:46:23] <Splarka>	vinodhrajan: the problem with passwords is, they are not stored
[11:46:24] <Duesentrieb>	vinodhrajan: sure it is, use wfGetDB to get a database access object. however, when possible, use high level functions to access the database
[11:46:26] <MinuteElectron>	the password is hashed and salted
[11:46:37] <Duesentrieb>	ah, passwords. yea
[11:46:38] <Splarka>	lets say your password is 'foo' and your userID is 123
[11:46:51] <Splarka>	$md5(123-$md5(foo))
[11:47:08] <Splarka>	and newer versions have more random salting too IIRC
[11:47:37] <Splarka>	now, it is possible to store passwords plaintext, but you probably didn't do that, vinodhrajan
[11:59:26] <Subfader>	so is it possible to run a if User... inside an article? Maybe using SecurePHP? I tried <?php global $wgUser; if( $wgUser->isAllowed('undelete') ) { echo('bla');} ?> but doesn't work while it does in the skin.
[12:00:24] <Subfader>	I could use a parser check for if user exists but that would only differ for logged in or out users.
[12:01:06] <Duesentrieb>	Subfader: "doesn't work" how? 
[12:01:13] <Duesentrieb>	does a simple echo("bla") work?
[12:01:22] <Duesentrieb>	without any conditions, i mean.
[12:01:49] <Duesentrieb>	oh, and with SecurePhp, you wouldn't be using <?php
[12:01:51] <Subfader>	the bla is hidden in the article while the php string works fine in the skin.
[12:02:01] <Subfader>	yes echo works. so SecurePHP is fine
[12:02:18] <Duesentrieb>	so what exactly doesn't work?
[12:02:36] <Duesentrieb>	can you echo($wgUser->isAllowed('undelete')); ?
[12:02:52] <Subfader>	well, global $wgUser; if( $wgUser->isAllowed('undelete') )
[12:02:54] <Subfader>	trying
[12:03:09] <Sasoriza>	if running updateSpecialPages.php as a cron job, should that be specified as an absolute filepath?
[12:03:10] <Platonides>	Subfader, try with action=purge urls
[12:03:20] <Platonides>	caching will interfere with it
[12:03:28] <Platonides>	better if you completely disable it
[12:03:35] <Duesentrieb>	i'd try with preview
[12:03:38] <Duesentrieb>	that is never cached
[12:03:44] <Subfader>	<runphp>echo($wgUser->isAllowed('undelete'));</runphp> gived me a blank page
[12:03:47] <Platonides>	that's another option :P
[12:03:54] <Subfader>	**gives
[12:04:09] <Duesentrieb>	Subfader: you still need the global $wgUser; bit
[12:04:10] <Platonides>	is $wgUser defined inside that context?
[12:04:17] <Duesentrieb>	though... it shouldn't give a blank page
[12:04:43] <Platonides>	trying to unreference a non-object?
[12:04:47] <Platonides>	seems a fatal error to me
[12:04:55] <Duesentrieb>	Subfader: there's an extension for conditional include, btw.. perhaps you should use that
[12:05:23] <Duesentrieb>	Platonides: oh, true. unreference. i was just thinging of using it, which would trigger a warning only
[12:05:36] <vinodhrajan>	Is there any tutorial for writing a Mediawiki Extension ? 
[12:05:51] <Subfader>	ok will look. otherwise i use {{#ifexist:User:{{CURRENTUSER}}|bla|blabla}} but that's not fitting my needs 100%
[12:05:52] <Duesentrieb>	!extensions | vinodhrajan
[12:05:52] --mwbot--	vinodhrajan: MediaWiki has been built so it can easily be customized by adding extensions. This is usually a simple process. See <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Extensions> for instructions to install extensions, as well as for writing them. See <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_Matrix> for an overview of known extensions.
[12:06:10] <Duesentrieb>	Subfader: {{CURRENTUSER}} doesn't exist, can can't, really.
[12:06:16] <Sasoriza>	Is there supposed to be a shitload of core files in the main wiki directory?
[12:06:25] <Duesentrieb>	no.
[12:06:27] <Subfader>	http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Variables
[12:06:29] <Duesentrieb>	they should be in includes
[12:06:37] <Duesentrieb>	ah, well then
[12:06:42] <Duesentrieb>	to hell with caching, right?
[12:06:58] <Subfader>	it gives CURRENTUSER. it should be MW standard imo
[12:07:26] <Sasoriza>	I've got core.3203, core.3204, etc. etc. :/
[12:08:03] <Subfader>	to hell with caching, right? was that directed at me?
[12:08:24] <Duesentrieb>	Subfader: has been requested for a long time. has been tried. no good solution was found, because it kills caching. which is not an option.
[12:08:37] <Duesentrieb>	Subfader: yes. because that stuff does kill caching.
[12:08:47] <Sasoriza>	Subfader, you talking to me? No, that wasn't directed at you... just a general query
[12:08:48] <Duesentrieb>	anything user-specific in page content does
[12:08:52] <Duesentrieb>	which is why it's not supported
[12:09:00] <Subfader>	hrr. but in skin is ok?
[12:09:26] <Duesentrieb>	Sasoriza: oh... core.xxx files are written when php dies a firey death :) something is wrong with your php.
[12:09:28] <Subfader>	i mean the $wgUser->isAllowed('undelete') stuff
[12:09:42] <Duesentrieb>	Sasoriza: if you are not going to debug it, you can just delete them. but look why it happens :)
[12:09:56] <Duesentrieb>	Subfader: in the skin it's ok, yes
[12:10:08] <Duesentrieb>	that is user-specific anyway, and still lets content be cached
[12:10:24] <Duesentrieb>	skin stuff just needs to be the same for all anonymous visitors
[12:11:19] <Sasoriza>	Hey, someone... are all those core. files part of the new localisation?
[12:11:39] <Duesentrieb>	Sasoriza: i just answered that
[12:11:49] <Sasoriza>	new = recent
[12:11:59] <Subfader>	can we quickly clearify? i use {{#ifexist:User:{{CURRENTUSER}}|... not on a static page but on a MediaWiki:Message page where it processes a user name to a user link (if current user's page exists). so cache should be ok?
[12:12:14] <Duesentrieb>	Subfader: no.l
[12:12:29] <Duesentrieb>	Subfader: err, wait, sorry.
[12:12:49] <Duesentrieb>	Subfader: in a system message... mmaaaaaaybe. depends on how currentuser is implemented.
[12:12:58] <Duesentrieb>	it may kill caching, or not. it wouldn't need to.
[12:13:11] <Subfader>	*processes = you can leave a comment. there's a field where you can enter your "user name". so if user is logged in, it results as [[User link, if not it's a guest and it's plain text
[12:13:48] <Duesentrieb>	if this is only used on a special page, it's no problem anyway
[12:13:57] <Duesentrieb>	input forms arn't cached
[12:14:24] <Duesentrieb>	problems arise when this stuff is used in page content
[12:14:42] <Duesentrieb>	or passibly when used in the skin, so it's shown on all pages.
[12:14:44] <Subfader>	it's used on a MediaWiki:Message page. this one holds the code for the comment being written in the Talk page by the comment extension
[12:15:01] <Xiong>	i believed in css and table-less layout until i committed to it
[12:15:02] <Duesentrieb>	yes, that should be fine
[12:15:13] <Duesentrieb>	Xiong: hahaha! some here.
[12:15:13] <Subfader>	so after leaving the comment cache is cleared. ok. phew :) thanks
[12:16:06] <Duesentrieb>	Subfader: well.... if you enable persistent message caching, using memchached or something, there may be a problem. not sure if caching happens before or after processing.
[12:16:19] <Xiong>	http://hotdesign.com/seybold/everything.html
[12:16:33] <Xiong>	"the road to hell is paved with spacer gifs and nested tables"
[12:16:42] <Xiong>	and you know, i agree in theory
[12:17:52] <Subfader>	well i didn't notice cache problems after i added the CURRENTUSER thingy and i have $wgMainCacheType = CACHE_NONE;
[12:19:13] <Duesentrieb>	Xiong: http://keithwilfred.com/ notice the big red slice
[12:20:39] <barcalex>	hi, can someone tell me what is meant by: Warning: shell_exec() has been disabled for security reasons in /www/htdocs/w0096569/includes/GlobalFunctions.php on line 1615 ???? I am new and do not know what it wants from me - someone here who can help me with this ?
[12:20:40] <Guido_d_Br>	I've seen a source that was 99,9% spacer gifs and nested tables, ten layers thick, all to post a few two-line messages
[12:21:08] <Duesentrieb>	Subfader: you will not notice problems if you are working as the same user all the time. also, you will not notice aches not working until you have a few thousand hits per hour.
[12:21:31] <Duesentrieb>	!safemode | barcalex
[12:21:31] --mwbot--	barcalex: safe_mode is an ill-concieved, broken-by-design setting in PHP that is supposed to make broken scripts safe. It was deprecated in PHP5 and removed in PHP6. MediaWiki can run with safe_mode enabled, but many of the advanced features will not work or need additional configuration (image thumbnailing using ImageMagick, for example). See http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Safe_mode for more information.
[12:22:05] <Duesentrieb>	barcalex: basically, it means your host is to restrictive to run mediawiki (or at least, to use all features)
[12:22:18] <Guido_d_Br>	Sucks if you're on a server that still uses safe mode :)
[12:22:24] <Subfader>	ok a few thousands per hour is far away :D
[12:22:39] <Xiong>	the trouble i have with the pure css approach is that it requires thought
[12:22:59] <barcalex>	d??sentrieb: i use all-inkl. - i see u are german, so u know this server ?
[12:23:01] <Xiong>	i see in my head how i want a page to look and it's easier just to code it that way
[12:23:11] <Duesentrieb>	barcalex: i don't. 
[12:23:20] <Duesentrieb>	barcalex: ask them what do to about it.
[12:23:28] <Duesentrieb>	barcalex: generally, you get what you pay for...
[12:23:48] <barcalex>	u mean mediawiki or my server ?
[12:24:00] <Duesentrieb>	you decide :)
[12:24:24] <barcalex>	because my server is very good normalley
[12:25:58] <Xiong>	here's the issue:
[12:26:00] <Xiong>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/wiki/Draw%3ACircumscribed_Trapezoid
[12:26:12] <Xiong>	logically, every step is distinct
[12:26:18] <Duesentrieb>	barcalex: "good" is relative. they are too restrictove for what you are trying to do.
[12:26:30] <Xiong>	so i suppose each one might as well be wrapped in a div and the whole mess floated
[12:26:43] <Xiong>	let the browser break it up into the available window width
[12:26:59] <barcalex>	ok, thanks
[12:27:02] <Xiong>	but in practice, it looks terrible if each image is not aligned with its neighbor
[12:27:52] <Xiong>	and since there are varying amounts of text with each step, there is no intelligent way to reserve the same amount of space for text in each div
[12:28:08] <barcalex>	just one more question: it says it is possible to run without the safe_mode ... would there be any change if i would take it out ?
[12:28:09] <Xiong>	-- i can't just say height: 4em
[12:30:14] <barcalex>	i know that my server uses php4 - i use the mediawiki version that need just php4 - could it be a problem anyway ?? (specially when i get this error: Warning: shell_exec() has been disabled for security reasons in /www/htdocs/w0096569/includes/GlobalFunctions.php on line 1615)
[12:31:08] <[KrusheR]>	hi
[12:33:05] <MinuteElectron>	barcalex: What page were you viwing?
[12:33:07] <Sasoriza>	any response re: core. files?
[12:33:49] <barcalex>	minuteelectron: u mean on the wiki ? or which homepage ?
[12:34:00] <MinuteElectron>	wiki
[12:34:07] <barcalex>	http://www.allekochen.com
[12:35:17] <d1d4c>	hi there :) is it posible to do a Category that point a section of a mediawiki page and not to a hole page? somehow (with an extension?)
[12:36:46] <d1d4c>	it is 'cos I have a page with a diferent things that I want to have a diferent category fot each section, not for the hole page...
[12:36:54] <Subfader>	Duesentrieb: About the cache again. So I don't need to worry much about {{CURRENTUSER}} being used in a template on a low-visitor-wiki?
[12:37:25] <Sasoriza>	well, I'm deleting 'em
[12:38:02] <Sasoriza>	can't even see 'em w/ftp... sheesh
[12:38:04] <MinuteElectron>	Sasoriza: What core files?
[12:38:06] <Splarka>	d1d4c: categorize redirects
[12:38:25] <Splarka>	on [[Foo]] say you have ==Section== you want to categorize
[12:38:26] <Sasoriza>	a bunch of numbered core. files appeared in the main directory
[12:38:38] <MinuteElectron>	"core"?
[12:38:44] <Sasoriza>	looks like some foreign language content
[12:38:53] <Splarka>	create [[Bar]] as "#REDIRECT [[Foo#Section]]" and on the next line "[[Category:Somecat]]
[12:39:04] <Splarka>	clicking the link to [[Bar]] will take you to Foo#Section
[12:39:05] <MinuteElectron>	Sasoriza: They are prefixed with a period?
[12:39:06] <Sasoriza>	core.xxx, core.xxxx, ie core.1685
[12:39:12] <MinuteElectron>	oh right
[12:39:15] <Sasoriza>	suffixed
[12:39:29] <d1d4c>	Splarka: ok, I'm gonna try, thn :)
[12:39:52] <MinuteElectron>	Sasoriza: http://gallery.menalto.com/node/59479
[12:40:04] <MinuteElectron>	Sasoriza: It probably means that your PHP is segfaulting.
[12:40:23] <MinuteElectron>	Do you manage the server yourself?
[12:43:03] <Duesentrieb>	Sasoriza: did you read whati told you about core files earlier?
[12:43:12] *Duesentrieb 	has the feeling he's being ignored
[12:43:18] <Duesentrieb>	Sasoriza: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_file
[12:43:45] <Sasoriza>	no
[12:44:38] <MinuteElectron>	Do you manage the server yourself?
[12:44:41] <Sasoriza>	only thing I can think of, if not php, maybe an imagemagick setting... but don't think that's it
[12:44:55] <Duesentrieb>	 <Duesentrieb> Sasoriza: oh... core.xxx files are written when php dies a firey death :) something is wrong with your php. Sasoriza: if you are not going to debug it, you can just delete them. but look why it happens :)
[12:45:03] <Sasoriza>	looks like automated web traffic is hitting it
[12:45:13] <MinuteElectron>	you're just ignoring the issue
[12:45:28] <MinuteElectron>	and not answering the questions we are asking to try and help you
[12:45:33] <Sasoriza>	i said no
[12:45:37] <MinuteElectron>	ok
[12:45:46] <Duesentrieb>	Sasoriza: it means that SOMETHING IS CRASHING!
[12:45:47] <MinuteElectron>	then you should speak to your sysadmin
[12:46:18] <MinuteElectron>	it has nothing to do with "automated web traffic"
[12:46:27] <MinuteElectron>	PHP simply shouldn't do that
[12:46:50] <Sasoriza>	I was checking a log, and saw msnbot stuff and the like
[12:47:01] <MinuteElectron>	THAT IS IRRELEVANT
[12:47:11] <Sasoriza>	ok, fine
[12:47:29] <MinuteElectron>	bah
[12:47:37] <Duesentrieb>	it may not be php crashing, but something called by php. but again, it needs to be investigated by a sys admin.
[12:48:33] <d1d4c>	Is it posible to do a redirect that point to a section? like #REDIRECT [[bla/blabla#foo]] ?
[12:48:50] <d1d4c>	I can not do it... :/
[12:49:03] <MinuteElectron>	sure
[12:49:26] <Duesentrieb>	not "sure" but "only since recently"
[12:49:30] <d1d4c>	if I do that, it points me to [[bla/blabla]]
[12:49:31] <Duesentrieb>	and it's a js hack. 
[12:49:39] <Duesentrieb>	maybe it's not even in core, but wikipediaspecific?
[12:49:53] <Splarka>	it is core
[12:49:58] <Splarka>	but only been around a few years
[12:50:10] <peder>	a core-file usually contains the name of the program its frome, use the file-command on it
[12:50:11] <d1d4c>	I'm not trying it in a wikimedia, but in a mediawiki
[12:50:12] <Duesentrieb>	uh... well, i distinctly recall all the trouble
[12:50:25] <d1d4c>	*wikipedia
[12:50:31] <Duesentrieb>	peder: yes, if you have shell access, that would help
[12:51:19] <Xiong>	comments?
[12:51:21] <Xiong>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/wiki/Draw%3ACircumscribed_Trapezoid
[12:51:51] <Duesentrieb>	Splarka: man, i feel old. december 2006 seems like yesterday :) 
[12:52:00] <Duesentrieb>	d1d4c, Splarka: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=218
[12:52:12] <peder>	Duesentrieb: sure, that would help, but if you have access to run scripts... not tha hard to do
[12:52:13] <Splarka>	yes, old old bug, but new old feature
[12:52:15] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Global deleted image review for Commons admins - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14801  +comment (10mike.lifeguard)
[12:52:18] <Duesentrieb>	d1d4c: what version of mediawiki are you using?
[12:52:20] <d1d4c>	tnk Duesentrieb :)
[12:52:25] <d1d4c>	let me see
[12:52:31] <Duesentrieb>	Splarka: that was the date tim marked it as fixed :)
[12:52:46] <Splarka>	Dues: yes, but the bug number is very low
[12:53:00] <Splarka>	so the feature is new, but the bug is methuselah, or was until squished
[12:53:12] <d1d4c>	mm I do not know... how to see it?
[12:53:13] <Duesentrieb>	yes... 2004-08-25... maybe even copied from sourceforge
[12:53:21] <Duesentrieb>	d1d4c: Special:Version
[12:53:24] <Splarka>	speaking of which
[12:53:24] <d1d4c>	ok
[12:53:33] <Splarka>	with the new redirect table thing...
[12:53:44] <Splarka>	can't the anchor be put into the original link now without too much expense?
[12:53:55] <d1d4c>	    *  MediaWiki: 1.6.8
[12:53:56] <d1d4c>	    * PHP: 5.2.0-8+etch11 (apache2handler)
[12:53:56] <d1d4c>	    * MySQL: 5.0.32-Debian_7etch6
[12:53:56] <d1d4c>	    * Extensions:
[12:53:56] <d1d4c>	          o Extension functions:
[12:53:56] <d1d4c>	                + ceSetup 
[12:53:57] <Splarka>	I mean, you can class redirects as class="mw-redirect" now
[12:53:58] <d1d4c>	    * Hooks:
[12:54:02] <d1d4c>	          o AbortNewAccount: (FancyCaptcha, confirmUserCreate)
[12:54:04] <d1d4c>	          o EditFilter: (FancyCaptcha, confirmEdit)
[12:54:06] <Splarka>	oh goody, this could go on for a while
[12:54:06] <d1d4c>	          o UserCreateForm: (FancyCaptcha, injectUserCreate) 
[12:54:11] <Duesentrieb>	d1d4c: STOP 
[12:54:16] <Splarka>	Duesentrieb: he can't hear you
[12:54:17] <Duesentrieb>	d1d4c: use a pastebin for that stuff
[12:54:18] <d1d4c>	ok, sorry
[12:54:25] <Splarka>	well maybe he can, heh
[12:54:33] <Duesentrieb>	Splarka: LET ME SCREAM A LITTLE LOUDER THEN!
[12:54:34] <Splarka>	IRC client buffers often will take assloads of lines and meter them out
[12:54:39] <Splarka>	so you can scream your head off
[12:54:47] <Splarka>	but the buffer will send for a minute sometimes
[12:54:53] <Duesentrieb>	Splarka: i know that
[12:55:03] <Splarka>	so why yell and add to the noise? ^_^
[12:55:12] <Mike_lifeguard>	O.O
[12:55:17] <Duesentrieb>	Splarka: i good hope :)
[12:55:21] <Xiong>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/wiki/Draw%3ACircumscribed_Trapezoid
[12:55:23] <Xiong>	?
[12:55:24] <Splarka>	like watching a multi-car pileup wreck and saying "stop crashing!"
[12:55:31] <Mike_lifeguard>	that was like 40 lines :\
[12:55:32] <Duesentrieb>	d1d4c: anyway... 1.6 is OLD and you don'??t have a good reason to use it
[12:55:41] <Splarka>	indeed
[12:55:42] <Duesentrieb>	d1d4c: it's very well possible the feature isn't in ther
[12:56:00] *Splarka 	ponders reopening 218
[12:56:08] <Duesentrieb>	d1d4c: 1.12 is out, 1.13 is comming soon. you are, like 6 releases behind. that's about two years :)
[12:56:09] <Splarka>	1.6 was like, what, 2005?
[12:56:14] <Duesentrieb>	yea
[12:56:58] <d1d4c>	Duesentrieb: yes, ^^ 
[12:57:22] <d1d4c>	I have to ask for a shell do to it my self, if not....
[12:57:25] <Duesentrieb>	so... upgrade, or live with the suckiness
[12:57:28] <OverlordQ>	Splarka: it works
[12:57:32] <Duesentrieb>	d1d4c: you don'
[12:57:35] <d1d4c>	jaja, ok
[12:57:39] <Duesentrieb>	err, don't need shell to upgrade
[12:57:48] <d1d4c>	no?
[12:57:49] <Duesentrieb>	although it helps, especially for making a backup
[12:57:53] <vinodhrajan>	How to remove the Hyperlink on the Wiki Logo ?
[12:57:53] <Duesentrieb>	!upgrade
[12:57:53] --mwbot--	http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Upgrading
[12:58:02] <Duesentrieb>	vinodhrajan: hack the skin.
[12:58:10] <d1d4c>	mmm, thnk a lot, Duesentrieb
[12:58:18] <Splarka>	OverlordQ: it hackishly works, and JS only
[12:58:20] <Duesentrieb>	thinking of it...
[12:58:21] <Splarka>	hmm
[12:58:25] <Splarka>	does the redirect table store sections?
[12:58:28] <Duesentrieb>	we have instructions for upgrading without shell access
[12:58:40] <Duesentrieb>	but there is no good way to make a backup without shell access, is there?
[12:58:46] <OverlordQ>	Ah, so it does
[12:58:47] <OverlordQ>	need js
[12:58:49] <Duesentrieb>	i mean, making a backup through phpmyadmin? ugh...
[12:59:02] <Xiong>	vino, i think you'll need to edit your php for that
[12:59:14] <Platonides>	Duesentrieb, you could try with something like phpshell
[12:59:15] <Xiong>	someskin.php
[12:59:33] <Duesentrieb>	Platonides: does that get around timeout problems?
[12:59:35] <Platonides>	or modify some maintenance script to run from the web
[12:59:44] <Duesentrieb>	same problem
[12:59:44] <Platonides>	no idea, haven't tried it
[12:59:58] <Platonides>	but php has a settimeout function
[13:00:17] <Duesentrieb>	yes.
[13:00:20] <Duesentrieb>	but your browser doesn't
[13:00:29] <Duesentrieb>	it's waiting for a response only so long
[13:00:31] <Platonides>	tehre's another function to ignore conenction dropping
[13:00:43] <Duesentrieb>	maybe if it gets some output continueously... i dunno
[13:01:00] <Duesentrieb>	*shrug*
[13:01:12] <Duesentrieb>	if you want to do serious stuff, get serious webspace
[13:01:13] <Xiong>	i'd be a happier fellow if someone told me if it sucks
[13:01:17] <Platonides>	ignore_user_abort(true)
[13:01:36] <Duesentrieb>	Platonides: i know of that. but what does that help you if your browser aborts the connection?
[13:01:54] <Duesentrieb>	Platonides: you have to actually some *load* the data...
[13:01:59] <Platonides>	where you expecting to get the file on your browser?
[13:02:15] <Duesentrieb>	well, what good isa backup i can't use?
[13:02:17] <Platonides>	i was thinking in using your browser to start the dump process to a file
[13:02:26] <Platonides>	and then retrieve it by ftp or similar
[13:02:33] <Duesentrieb>	or just plain http
[13:02:35] <Duesentrieb>	might work
[13:02:46] <Duesentrieb>	you could also start stuff with nohup, actually
[13:03:03] <Duesentrieb>	or even use screen :P
[13:03:40] <Platonides>	how do you use screen without shell access?
[13:04:47] <Duesentrieb>	huh? you don't, but it gets around the disconnect problem
[13:04:53] <Duesentrieb>	you can just get back into the session
[13:04:55] *Splarka 	218s but doesn't open
[13:05:21] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Redirects do not support named anchors - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=218  (10herd)
[13:05:33] <Splarka>	ack, 17 CCs
[13:05:39] <Splarka>	spam spam spam
[13:05:54] <Xiong>	?
[13:06:17] <Splarka>	Xiong: too many people subscribed to that bug ^_^
[13:06:48] <Xiong>	sorry, i'm turning my crank
[13:06:53] <Xiong>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/wiki/Draw%3ACircumscribed_Trapezoid
[13:07:02] <Xiong>	burn it or ship it?
[13:11:58] <TheWoozle>	Look like MW 1.12 is ignoring __TOC__ and __NOTOC__; now trying other magic variables to determine the extent... anybody else run into anything similar?
[13:13:46] <Splarka>	same behavior logged in and logged out?
[13:15:19] <Xiong>	i've had NOTOC work
[13:17:53] <TheWoozle>	Okay, I think I see what's going on.
[13:18:06] <TheWoozle>	It's because the sections are being generated (by the DPL extension)...
[13:18:24] <TheWoozle>	It's treating them like a sort of transclusion from a separate page, with its own TOC.
[13:19:02] <Splarka>	mmm, DPL
[13:19:13] <TheWoozle>	If I create some sections above the generated stuff, I get a TOC for that and then another TOC for the generated stuff. >.<
[13:19:42] <Mike_lifeguard>	DPL is magic :D
[13:19:42] <TheWoozle>	Theoretically, then, if I tell DPL to stick a __NOTOC__ in its header, that should make it go away...
[13:19:58] <TheWoozle>	Magic, kluge... comme ci, comme ca ;-)
[13:24:05] <TheWoozle>	Yup, that did it.
[13:24:47] <TheWoozle>	I wonder... if the generated page were transcluded within another page, would *that* page handle the TOC properly? Not worth messing with right now, but maybe later...
[13:29:45] <TheWoozle>	Yee-haa! Now I can generate RSS feeds off of any category or other criteria or whatever.
[13:30:28] <Xiong>	does the absence of comment mean it is too good to criticize?
[13:30:41] <Xiong>	or too awful to recognize?
[13:39:56] <Xiong>	damn
[13:40:10] <Xiong>	how to transclude within <math> tags?
[13:40:20] <Xiong>	latex thinks {{}} is for it
[13:40:55] <Jhs>	Xiong, you have to use {{#tag:}}
[13:41:00] <Jhs>	but it's complicated
[13:41:45] <Xiong>	um, i think -- maybe -- if i did that, i'd be putting the <math> tag in the template?
[13:42:21] <Xiong>	don't want that; want to put snippets of latex inside templates and transclude them later between <math> tags
[13:43:19] <Xiong>	or, are you suggesting i avoid using <math> altogether, and do {{#tag:math|....}}?
[13:43:19] <Jhs>	yeah, you have to use {{#tag:}} for that
[13:43:31] <Jhs>	see http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TagParser for a manual
[13:43:48] <Jhs>	i'm not sure how tag works myself, i haven't used it a lot, but it should work for your problem
[13:43:49] <Xiong>	i thought that came as part of parserfunctions
[13:43:57] <Jhs>	it's a separate one
[13:44:08] <Xiong>	i know i've used it elsewhere -- and didn't install another ext for it
[13:44:22] <alnokta>	hi Jhs 
[13:44:22] <Xiong>	iirc
[13:45:10] <Jhs>	hi alnokta :)
[13:45:44] <Xiong>	oh
[13:45:58] <Xiong>	"(not needed in 1.12)"
[13:46:13] <Xiong>	must be builtin now
[13:46:24] <Jhs>	ok
[13:46:26] <Jhs>	yeah
[13:47:28] <Xiong>	i can't decide if the extra overhead is worth it
[13:47:42] <Xiong>	seems, for whatever reason, my latex equal signs are messed up
[13:48:17] <Xiong>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/w/index.php?title=User:Bear/Sandbox&oldid=228
[13:48:41] <Xiong>	it's a small thing but the equals sign means equality; it shows it with two equal lines
[13:48:43] <Xiong>	yes?
[13:48:53] <Xiong>	so having one obviously bolder than the other stinks
[13:49:07] <Xiong>	seems to crop up consistently
[13:49:25] <Xiong>	so
[13:49:28] <Xiong>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/w/index.php?title=User:Bear/Sandbox&oldid=230
[13:49:58] <Xiong>	telling latex \large{=} takes care of that but then it closes up the space on either side
[13:50:12] <Xiong>	so \ \large{=} \ is needed
[13:50:27] <Xiong>	and there will be ever so many formulas that require = in there, somewhere
[13:50:54] <Jhs>	just a rendering issue i guess
[13:51:14] <Xiong>	actually, i'm all wrong
[13:51:31] <Xiong>	look carefully, the entire formula is \large
[13:51:36] <Xiong>	(!)
[13:53:31] <Xiong>	yeh that's weird
[13:53:46] <Xiong>	putting \large at the very end of the whole thing has the same effect
[14:02:14] <Xiong>	ha
[14:02:49] <Xiong>	the method i'm using to render latex is giving me, by default, smaller output than what WP is using
[14:03:05] <Xiong>	when i put \larger, i get the same size
[14:03:16] <Xiong>	and my rendering gives me transparent bg
[14:03:23] <Xiong>	so there
[14:05:12] <wikibugs>	14(DUP) Returned API action error should be in XML - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14942  +comment (10Bryan.TongMinh)
[14:05:21] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Unknown_action error should return an error object - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11673  +comment (10Bryan.TongMinh)
[14:05:29] <Xiong>	i'm getting gifs, not pngs
[14:13:52] <snicoll>	Just trying to do the inplace installation of 1.1.20 and I got this on the config page "Parse error: syntax error, unexpected T_FUNCTION, expecting T_VARIABLE in /home.14/m/e/l/meleroni/www/wiki/includes/User.php on line 2703"
[14:14:03] <snicoll>	1.12.0, sorry
[14:14:35] <OverlordQ>	in place?
[14:15:11] <snicoll>	I meant copy the dist on the server and point FF to the /config/index.php file
[14:15:11] <CIA-55>	03aaron * r38096 10/trunk/extensions/FlaggedRevs/FlaggedArticle.php: Show form as needed only
[14:16:14] <snicoll>	the rights of the file is 604
[14:16:31] <CIA-55>	03jhsoby * r38097 10/trunk/extensions/WikimediaMessages/WikimediaMessages.i18n.php: Revert r38091; the message names have to have capital letters to work
[14:19:21] <snicoll>	any idea?
[14:21:47] <Y__>	enh
[14:21:53] <CIA-55>	03jhsoby * r38098 10/trunk/extensions/WikimediaMessages/WikimediaMessages.i18n.php: Deleting one message from 'bn' because it is now obsolete
[14:22:17] <SvenG>	hi all
[14:22:18] <SvenG>	hi... i need the syntax for including a page within another page... "{{PageName}}"" did not work.  anyone got a link or an example?
[14:22:34] <CorneliusWasmund>	Hi SvenG 
[14:23:04] <Jhs>	SvenG, {{:pagename}}
[14:23:28] <snicoll>	Does anyone had this already when installing "syntax error, unexpected T_FUNCTION, expecting T_VARIABLE in /home.14/m/e/l/meleroni/www/wiki/includes/User.php on line 2703"
[14:23:34] <Jhs>	to include pages in the main namespace, you must have a : in front of the page name
[14:25:03] <SvenG>	Jhs: oh..  colon!  i'll try...
[14:27:05] <Xiong>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/wiki/Draw%3ACircumscribed_Trapezoid
[14:27:13] <Xiong>	still looking for comment
[14:27:21] <Xiong>	is it right?
[14:28:24] <snicoll>	Anyone here to help installing media wiki?
[14:28:41] <Xiong>	snicoll, i'm no expert but i've done a few
[14:28:44] <Xiong>	what do you need?
[14:28:54] <snicoll>	well http://www.meleronicoll.be/wiki/config/index.php
[14:29:15] <snicoll>	I can't go any further. I've searched the web for an error in that version or something but found nothing
[14:29:31] <alnokta>	Xiong, is your skin available for download? 
[14:29:37] <Xiong>	are you on shared hosting?
[14:29:44] <snicoll>	yep
[14:29:48] <snicoll>	ovh - french
[14:29:49] <Xiong>	alnokta, i can link you
[14:29:59] <alnokta>	Xiong, that would be nice
[14:30:01] <Xiong>	i haven't put it anywhere in a neat bundle
[14:30:27] <Xiong>	sni, you should argue with your hosting provider about this
[14:30:43] <Xiong>	get them to fix your php
[14:30:45] <snicoll>	really? how could it be related?
[14:31:04] <Xiong>	dunno but when i see a big red error message, i balk
[14:31:10] <snicoll>	my php config you mean?
[14:31:21] <snicoll>	oh I can fix that, let me check
[14:31:22] <Xiong>	no, the server's installation of php itself
[14:31:37] <Xiong>	alno: hang on
[14:31:53] <Xiong>	hell, i will just put it on a wiki page
[14:32:19] <alnokta>	thats fine :)
[14:33:50] <snicoll>	Xiong; here you go http://www.meleronicoll.be/wiki/config/index.php
[14:33:55] <snicoll>	same thing
[14:33:56] <Xiong>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/wiki/Meta:Scenic/css
[14:34:17] <Xiong>	you'd better view source, though; it renders funny, of course
[14:34:47] <Xiong>	sni: funny
[14:35:17] <snicoll>	well, it's disappointing :)
[14:35:38] <snicoll>	I can fill in the db parameters by hand if needed, I don't care
[14:35:42] <alnokta>	Xiong, i put that in mediawiki:monobook.css ?
[14:36:09] <Xiong>	i wouldn't
[14:36:14] <Xiong>	it's based on cologneblue
[14:36:30] <Xiong>	i put it in /common/
[14:36:44] <Xiong>	dunno what will happen, either, without Scenic.php
[14:36:53] <Xiong>	it's not really designed as a portable skin
[14:37:17] <snicoll>	lol
[14:37:20] <snicoll>	you know what?
[14:37:29] <snicoll>	the file was wrongly uploaded to the server
[14:37:30] <snicoll>	great ...
[14:37:41] <snicoll>	I re-upload User.php and it fixed my problem
[14:37:58] <Xiong>	yeh that sounds good to me
[14:38:26] <Xiong>	i'm in ur wiki
[14:38:34] <Xiong>	but i'm not killin all ur doodz
[14:39:30] <Xiong>	alnokta: i take it this means you think scenic looks nice
[14:39:43] <Xiong>	but does the page render intelligently for you?
[14:39:51] <Xiong>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/wiki/Draw%3ACircumscribed_Trapezoid
[14:40:29] <Xiong>	note that my current issue is with the css class table.draw
[14:40:48] <Xiong>	which is not in scenic.css but MediaWiki:Scenic.css
[14:44:07] <alnokta>	Xiong, sorry was afk, yes it is nice :)
[14:45:04] <Xiong>	but does the construction sequence of steps render decently for you?
[14:45:28] <Xiong>	i don't see a way to do it without a table
[14:45:38] <Xiong>	but at least the style is controlled by css
[14:46:09] <alnokta>	yes , it renders just fine
[14:46:27] <Xiong>	thank you
[14:46:33] <Xiong>	fooled around with it long enough
[14:46:42] <Xiong>	ornery
[14:46:57] <Xiong>	i gotta get it right, though; there will be more just like it to come
[14:47:56] <Xiong>	i figure just about all constructions will follow the same pattern
[14:48:35] <Xiong>	although for some i may want a 3 column layout
[14:49:05] <Xiong>	basically, i hate this fooling around, trying to guess what the whole world is seeing in their browsers
[14:49:31] <Xiong>	but i hate even more those arrogant sites that are "best viewed in" IE 2.0
[14:49:32] <alnokta>	i would stick to firefox (mozillas)
[14:49:42] <Xiong>	well i don't have that
[14:49:50] <Guido>	Or in 640x480
[14:50:03] <Xiong>	and 640 wide is way too stingy
[14:50:28] <Xiong>	my mon is pretty old and it's twice that
[14:50:47] <Xiong>	i realize there is still an "800 px wide" movement
[14:51:02] <Xiong>	but i think everybody with money has got up to at least 1024
[14:51:02] <alnokta>	i'm on 800*600 
[14:51:14] <Xiong>	by choice or by need?
[14:51:37] <Guido>	320x200 monocolor
[14:51:39] <flyingparchment>	800x600?  isn't that illegal?
[14:51:47] <Guido>	jk
[14:51:50] <alnokta>	need
[14:52:00] <alnokta>	:)
[14:52:34] <Xiong>	fp: ty
[14:52:58] <Xiong>	alnok, i will *give* you a mon if you're in the bay area
[14:53:14] <Xiong>	i must have one in storage
[14:53:47] <Xiong>	hell, drive around and you can see 1024x768 CRTs sitting on the curb
[14:53:55] <Xiong>	most work
[14:54:19] <alnokta>	thanks 
[14:54:19] <Xiong>	anyway, the size issue is a constant conflict in geometry; you can't get away from it
[14:54:53] <Xiong>	any fairly complex construction, unless it's drawn to a pretty large scale, will have areas that are just too squished up to see the detail
[14:55:16] <Xiong>	i tell all my students to buy pads of newsprint for practice
[14:55:21] <Xiong>	and i carry the same
[14:56:28] <Xiong>	not all that big, i think i'm telling them 18" x 24"
[14:56:34] <Xiong>	but they think it's huge
[14:56:37] <alnokta>	what do you teach? 
[14:56:51] <Xiong>	i had one student who absolutely refused to carry it to sessions, because he'd have to carry it to school
[14:56:57] <wikibugs>	03(mod) New revisions occasionally created with wrong text ( but correct rev_len) - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14933  +comment (10stigmj)
[14:57:10] <Xiong>	um, i don't teach; i tutor geometry
[14:57:17] <Xiong>	hence the site -- beyond euclid
[14:57:53] <alnokta>	ah
[14:58:23] <Xiong>	i think most schoolteachers don't even try to fight it
[14:58:34] <Xiong>	they just pass out handouts with the figures drawn already
[14:58:48] <Xiong>	most of my students have no idea how to draw a circle with a compass
[14:58:54] <Xiong>	no wonder they're ignorant of geometry
[14:59:04] <Xiong>	-- as if it were something you could learn by watching
[14:59:44] <Xiong>	when i get BE up and running, i'll upload photos of actual constructions made on real paper
[15:00:02] <Xiong>	but they do take a long time to do well; there's sth to be said for the machine
[15:00:41] <Xiong>	but it takes a whole different mindset to draw a figure with a CAD package than with the traditional tools
[15:01:19] <Xiong>	and if you're faking compass and straightedge construction on the computer, then you need to keep two different sets of rules in mind at once
[15:01:28] <Xiong>	not sth i think any student should be asked to do
[15:02:21] <alnokta>	then you should teach them on computer?
[15:02:39] <Xiong>	well, not what i believe
[15:03:30] <alnokta>	you believe in the old way then
[15:04:28] <Xiong>	i should, obviously, post the materials list
[15:05:27] <Splarka>	if they ever get stuck on a desert island or (from a time machine accident) medieval europe and they need to build a trebuchet, they'll be glad
[15:06:00] <Xiong>	or a temple to ra
[15:06:06] <Xiong>	so they can get off the damn rock
[15:06:12] <Splarka>	he is the sun god, he sure is a fun god, ra ra ra
[15:08:23] <Xiong>	not all the css wizardry in the world is going to give me decimal-point-aligned tabs, is it?
[15:09:47] <alnokta>	right
[15:11:21] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Cannot run mediawiki - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14945 15enhancement; normal; MediaWiki: Installation; (ArtjomZab)
[15:12:49] <Splarka>	white-space:pre;font-family:monospace; ?
[15:15:27] <Xiong>	arghh!
[15:15:39] <Xiong>	does |- have to be on a line by itself?
[15:16:43] <Splarka>	yep, often easier to use html tables
[15:17:08] <Xiong>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/wiki/Tool%3AMaterials_List
[15:17:29] <Xiong>	note that i omit a lot of niceties
[15:17:51] <Xiong>	this is just the bare bones equipment needed to get started with compass and straightedge construction
[15:21:01] <Xiong>	i've been thinking i should go down to TAP Plastics and have them make up some unmarked straightedges
[15:22:10] <Splarka>	Xiong: yes, css magic can do decimal point alignment
[15:22:17] <Splarka>	http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Splarka/sand
[15:22:44] <Splarka>	you need to monospace the font, which can be via css font-family, or using <pre> or <tt> or <code>
[15:23:00] <Splarka>	then you need to fix the witespace with white-space:pre;, or you need to text-align:right
[15:23:04] <Splarka>	^h
[15:23:14] <Xiong>	not
[15:23:24] <Splarka>	not what you meant?
[15:23:31] <Xiong>	well, it's a cheat
[15:23:36] <Splarka>	is not!
[15:23:49] <Xiong>	right-align only works if there's a fixed number of digits after the decimal
[15:23:51] <Splarka>	is all legal, except in Wyoming after 10pm
[15:24:05] <Xiong>	and you're counting on the monospace taking
[15:24:32] <Splarka>	well, monospace is a 'web safe' font name
[15:24:40] <Xiong>	doesn't work in my browser
[15:24:48] <Splarka>	which means, a browser that doesn't support it is pretty sucky
[15:24:53] <Xiong>	although <tt> does
[15:24:54] <Splarka>	does it support <pre> ?
[15:25:01] <Splarka>	use <pre> ^_^
[15:25:13] <Xiong>	yeh, pre is the obvious method, i should have done that
[15:25:23] <Xiong>	that would give me decent tab spacing, too
[15:26:36] <alnokta>	what that german here mean? http://ar.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D9%88%D9%8A%D9%83%D9%8A%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%A7:%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%8A%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%86/%D8%A3%D8%B1%D8%B4%D9%8A%D9%81/%D8%A3%D8%AE%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%B1/07/2008&diff=prev&oldid=1969305
[15:26:59] <Xiong>	er, except how do i know how far apart tabs are?
[15:27:48] <Splarka>	maybe you had better use spaces instead
[15:28:38] <Xiong>	then i have to count on monospace
[15:28:52] <Xiong>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/wiki/Tool%3AMaterials_List
[15:29:03] <Xiong>	does anybody see this right? or wrong?
[15:29:07] <Xiong>	now, with pre?
[15:29:41] <Xiong>	this is probably not the way to go anyway
[15:29:52] <Xiong>	because later, i'll want to link the items
[15:30:19] <Splarka>	heh, you can use #tag:pre
[15:30:29] <alnokta>	Xiong, how it should look?
[15:30:31] <Xiong>	eh!
[15:30:37] <Splarka>	or you can use a single space indent, or you could even use... um... <tt style="white-space:pre;">
[15:30:42] <Xiong>	it's done, fair or ill
[15:30:46] <Splarka>	all sorts of evil
[15:30:56] <Xiong>	it should look neat, like a materials list or invoice
[15:31:06] <Xiong>	the columns should line up
[15:31:20] <alnokta>	it is 
[15:31:42] <Xiong>	gee, where does the width of a tab come from anyway?
[15:31:58] <Xiong>	ty alnokta
[15:34:38] <Xiong>	splarka, i think the solution is to define another bunch of css classes
[15:35:01] <Xiong>	inline css stinks, basically
[15:35:03] <alnokta>	Xiong, http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/6843/shottk1.png
[15:35:05] <Xiong>	clutters the markup
[15:35:08] <Splarka>	yes, but handy for testing
[15:35:28] <Splarka>	note also that excess whitespace is stripped before html rendering in some cases
[15:35:34] <Splarka>	(some == most)
[15:35:42] <Xiong>	ty++ alnokta
[15:35:53] <Splarka>	heh, seamonkey
[15:35:55] <alnokta>	yw
[15:35:59] <Xiong>	nice to see how the rest of the skin is doing, too
[15:36:10] <Xiong>	okay enough by my lights
[15:37:24] <Xiong>	i think the precise solution involves breaking the dollar amounts into two cells, before and after the decimal point
[15:38:02] <Xiong>	you'd think a feature found on 15 year old word processors would have made it onto the web by now
[15:38:11] <Splarka>	heh
[15:38:15] <Xiong>	in some ways, modern times are extremely primitive
[15:38:16] <Splarka>	you might template the rows
[15:38:35] <Splarka>	{{sometemplate|object|number|dollar|cents}}
[15:38:39] <Xiong>	there was a time when i had a gorgeous font book
[15:38:52] <Xiong>	and i still have the fonts
[15:39:03] <Xiong>	but they only come into play now when building logos
[15:39:28] <Xiong>	nobody wants to see fonts in print anymore, they're conditioned to expect all text to look the same
[15:40:23] <Xiong>	at least, nobody will pay me any more to sit down with them for an hour, looking over the fontbook
[15:40:33] <Xiong>	not for body text
[15:41:44] <Xiong>	guido you are being sucked into a vortex of evil
[15:42:08] <Xiong>	don't struggle, it will only suck harder
[15:43:58] <Nikerabbit>	what's up?
[15:44:11] <Nikerabbit>	I see the same guys as when I left :D
[15:44:26] <Nikerabbit>	and Splarka has somehow got @ :)
[15:44:28] <Splarka>	Xiong wants web pages to be a spreadsheet
[15:44:38] <Splarka>	oops
[15:44:50] <Splarka>	damn, thought I was gonna have to mute a serial cutpaster
[15:44:52] <Splarka>	fergot!
[15:45:06] *Splarka 	does 40 hail mary's and an act of contrition, or something
[15:46:21] <Xiong>	actually, i'd settle for web pages that do as well as wordstar did
[15:46:45] <Xiong>	or macwrite
[15:46:53] <alnokta>	Nikerabbit, ??????????
[15:48:40] <Nikerabbit>	alnokta: am I supposed to be able to read arabic script? :o
[15:49:20] <alnokta>	Nikerabbit, or use google translator :P
[15:49:29] <Nikerabbit>	nah, that ruins the fun
[15:52:24] <Nikerabbit>	was walking almost 20 km or so
[15:52:40] <Nikerabbit>	it feels... puzzled now
[15:53:45] *alnokta 	wishes he walks half that *days
[15:54:09] <Guido_d_Br>	Yes, Wordstar, those were te days.
[15:56:57] <Nikerabbit>	mmmm
[15:58:33] <Nikerabbit>	got few blisters or what they are called
[15:59:36] <alnokta>	cut it :P
[16:01:53] <Nikerabbit>	nah
[16:02:14] <Nikerabbit>	I used to do that
[16:09:18] <DenisKoronchik>	hi
[16:09:25] <DenisKoronchik>	can anyone say me
[16:09:33] <DenisKoronchik>	how i can to change color of font in wiki?
[16:11:58] <Platonides>	<font color="red">Some text</font>
[16:12:29] <DenisKoronchik>	thanks
[16:13:17] <Platonides>	you could also use CSS setting an  style="color: red" 
[16:18:04] <barcalex>	hi, i need your help plz. i have updated my wiki now - which file do i have to run to let it work again ? plz hlp
[16:19:40] <Platonides>	you mean  maintenance/update.php ?
[16:20:17] <barcalex>	yes, how can i star this file ?
[16:20:36] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Include *all* Wikimedia wikis in Domas' wikistats - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13645  (10Wiki.Melancholie)
[16:20:45] <OverlordQ>	!upgrade
[16:20:45] --mwbot--	http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Upgrading
[16:20:50] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED) Include *all* Wikimedia wikis in Domas' wikistats - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13645  (10Wiki.Melancholie)
[16:21:18] <barcalex>	i am on this site - i am just too stupid to understand where i have to start this file
[16:21:51] <Platonides>	go to a shell and run
[16:22:01] <Platonides>	php update.php
[16:22:06] <Platonides>	from the maintenance folder
[16:22:21] <barcalex>	sorry for this question, but what is a shell ?
[16:23:02] <Platonides>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell
[16:23:40] <Platonides>	em http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_line_interface
[16:24:30] <Xiong>	the shell is where the ghost lives
[16:25:21] <barcalex>	is this a special program or part of a program ??? 
[16:25:21] <alnokta>	heh http://ar.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D9%86%D9%82%D8%A7%D8%B4_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B3%D8%AA%D8%AE%D8%AF%D9%85%3AQr%C3%A8t%C3%9F%C3%A8_der_%C3%8Atsz%C3%9F&diff=1969505&oldid=1969402
[16:26:45] <alnokta>	it means that you need to have a type of access on your web host called shell
[16:27:28] <alnokta>	try to find it in your control panel
[16:27:42] <alnokta>	ssh/shell 
[16:28:00] <OverlordQ>	or just re-run the installer as mentioned on that page
[16:30:13] <alnokta>	OverlordQ, using ssh is long-term solution, if they have it.
[16:31:16] <barcalex>	by using re-run do i loose my old files ?
[16:36:08] <barcalex>	when they write "and start the installer" --- where should this be ?
[16:36:44] <barcalex>	i have found, sorry
[16:37:14] <barcalex>	sorry for my stupid quesions anyway, but i am more the user, not the guy who knows the WHY and HOW
[16:37:39] <CIA-55>	03nikerabbit * r38099 10/trunk/extensions/Translate/TranslateEditAddons.php: * Fixed a bug in navigation links
[16:40:41] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Install script should determine pre processor to use - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14946 15enhancement; normal; MediaWiki: Installation; (Bryan.TongMinh)
[16:41:21] <alnokta>	barcalex, it means you open your ftp, rename LocalSettings.php in the wiki folder to LocalSettings.old, go visit your wiki again and it will ask you to install.
[16:41:49] <Nikerabbit>	GAH
[16:41:58] <alnokta>	barcalex, enter exactly the same information that you have entered when you first installed the wiki.
[16:42:06] <barcalex>	yes, thx, as i wrote above, finally i have found :)
[16:43:43] <wikibugs>	14(DUP) Install script should determine pre processor to use - 10http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14946  +comment (10niklas.laxstrom)
[16:43:51] <wikibugs>	03(mod)  Use Preprocessor_Hash by default to avoid missing DOM module errors - 10http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13770  +comment (10niklas.laxstrom)
[16:43:59] <barcalex>	so, next problem. i have installed via re-run ... but when i start the page now, everything has gone ... 
[16:45:14] <barcalex>	it is written that i should delete the old configuration file
[16:45:27] <barcalex>	which is meant ?
[16:45:35] <barcalex>	where is it located ?
[16:48:17] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Make image views statistics available through wikistats - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14890  +comment (10Wiki.Melancholie)
[16:53:15] <alnokta>	barcalex, can you give a url?
[16:57:08] <barcalex>	http://www.allekochen.com
[16:58:53] <barcalex>	alnokta, found something ?
[17:03:45] <wikibugs>	04(REOPENED)  Use Preprocessor_Hash by default to avoid missing DOM module errors - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13770  +comment (10Bryan.TongMinh)
[17:10:39] <MrSock>	ok -  so you know the "what links here" link?
[17:10:50] <MrSock>	is there a way to incorporate that list into the page itself?
[17:15:02] <alnokta>	barcalex, now you should ftp and download LocalSettings.php from your /path/to/wiki/config and then upload it into /path/to/wiki/
[17:15:48] <wikibugs>	04(REOPENED) Make UI easier with diff-only preference - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14581  +comment (10pbirken)
[17:16:20] <Subfader>	$wgEnableMWSuggest: where are suggstions coming from? 
[17:16:35] <jlerner_>	MrSock: Special:Whatlinkshere doesn't seem to be "includable" that way
[17:16:50] <Subfader>	are users search terms stored somewhere then?
[17:16:57] <barcalex>	alnokta, i have done, it works again, thx
[17:18:57] <barcalex>	alnokta, when i go to "last uploads" it says: Warning</b>: passthru() has been disabled for security reasons in <b>/www/htdocs/w0096569/includes/GlobalFunctions.php</b> on line .... do u know how to change  and where ?
[17:21:21] <barcalex>	in this row there is " 	passthru( $cmd, $retval );    " how should i change ?
[17:21:36] <Shown>	does exist an easy way to enable only certain accounts to edit contents on a wiki?
[17:22:12] <Shown>	and all new registered accounts are disabled by default? :s thanks in advance
[17:25:28] <alnokta>	barcalex, there might be a hope if you can use custom php.ini
[17:26:09] <barcalex>	alnokta, ? what do u mean ?
[17:27:11] <Nikerabbit>	Shown: all in the FAQ
[17:27:31] <Shown>	thanks Nikerabbit i'll read them asap
[17:30:41] <alnokta>	barcalex, what is your web host?
[17:31:03] <barcalex>	u mean where i have my webspace ?
[17:31:15] <alnokta>	yes
[17:31:16] <barcalex>	all-inkl
[17:31:31] <CIA-55>	03jhsoby * r38100 10/trunk/phase3/languages/messages/MessagesEn.php: Added {{PLURAL:}} to lag-warn-normal and lag-warn-high
[17:33:58] <Jinx>	I recently inherited a MediaWiki, and I need to know how to add myself as Bureaucrat/Sysop. Can it be done via a PHP file?
[17:35:46] <Jhs>	Jinx, afaik (i'm not a technician) it can be done via changing the database
[17:36:19] <Jinx>	only through the SQL?
[17:36:54] *Jinx 	doesn't have much experience in SQL
[17:36:57] <Jhs>	yes, as far as i know. i don't think there is a php file for it
[17:36:58] *Jhs 	neither
[17:37:00] <Jack_Phoenix>	Jinx, something like this should work: INSERT INTO user_groups (ug_user, ug_group) VALUES ( (SELECT user_id FROM user WHERE user_name = 'your username here'), 'sysop')
[17:37:23] <Jinx>	alright... now just to figure out where to enter that :)
[17:37:35] <Jinx>	phpmyadmin perhaps
[17:37:36] <Jack_Phoenix>	phpmyadmin -> your wiki database -> sql tab
[17:37:40] <Jinx>	thanks
[17:37:55] <Jack_Phoenix>	INSERT INTO user_groups (ug_user, ug_group) VALUES ( (SELECT user_id FROM user WHERE user_name = 'your username here'), 'bureaucrat') <-- run that too
[17:37:56] <Jinx>	another quick question while i'm here...
[17:38:01] <Jack_Phoenix>	to make yourself a 'crat
[17:38:14] <Jinx>	can i enable an "Add a page" link on the left side? 
[17:38:41] <Jinx>	i don't know why there isn't one... but currently the only way we add pages in our wiki is to link to a non-existent page, then click it and edit :)
[17:38:53] <alnokta>	barcalex, make a file .htaccess and upload to  the wiki folder add this inside: php_value  disable_functions "" 
[17:40:17] <barcalex>	alnokta, what is it for ?
[17:40:19] <Jack_Phoenix>	Jinx, can't think of anything like that right now. Some extensions might provide such a functionality though. I admit, a core special page for new page creation would be cool ;-)
[17:40:56] <alnokta>	barcalex, so that enables the disabled functions
[17:41:37] <barcalex>	alnokta, ok, and with which program do i make such files ? with the editor ?
[17:42:14] <alnokta>	barcalex, just a regular file in notepad
[17:42:22] <barcalex>	alnokta, ok
[17:42:34] <Jinx>	Jack_Phoenix: are you serious?  there is no simple $wgAddPageLink = true; ?
[17:42:49] <Jack_Phoenix>	yeah, that is so
[17:42:55] <Jinx>	that's really weird... everyone is expected to first link a non-existent page, then edit it?
[17:43:02] <Jack_Phoenix>	suppose so :)
[17:43:09] <Jack_Phoenix>	Inputbox extension is widely used for new page creation though
[17:43:12] <Jinx>	how was the first page created then? it was and has always been?
[17:43:13] <Jinx>	heh
[17:43:23] <barcalex>	alnokta, was no good idea, now the page is down :)
[17:43:25] <Jack_Phoenix>	read more about it on http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Inputbox
[17:43:37] <Jinx>	alright, thanks
[17:43:52] <Jack_Phoenix>	and the first page, the [[Main Page]] gets automatically created by MediaWiki installer script whenever you install a MediaWiki ;-)
[17:44:09] <Jack_Phoenix>	but most people use search for creating new articles, including myself
[17:44:28] <alnokta>	barcalex, what is inside the file?
[17:44:42] <barcalex>	alnokta, php_value  disable_functions
[17:45:50] <CIA-55>	03jhsoby * r38101 10/trunk/extensions/SemanticMediaWiki/languages/SMW_Messages.php: Added {{PLURAL:}} to smw_subpropertyarticlecount (SemanticMediaWiki)
[17:45:54] <barcalex>	alnokta, now                  php_value  disable_functions "" 
[17:47:02] <alnokta>	barcalex, remove that spacing
[17:47:28] <Simetrical>	MinuteElectron, you want to select all recommended fields by joining to the page table.  Otherwise when people try to use the resulting TitleArray object, it will have to do more queries to unstub the Title objects, which defeats the point.
[17:47:50] <vinodhrajan>	Which Wikipedia/Wikia has the Prettiest Front Page :-P ? I want a Model for the Main Page ?
[17:48:32] <Jack_Phoenix>	English Wikipedia's main page is quite nice
[17:48:51] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Protecting a page causes problems - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14947 15enhancement; normal; MediaWiki extensions: FlaggedRevs; (pbirken)
[17:49:01] <vinodhrajan>	Wont that be too common to Imitate/Change ?
[17:49:36] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Make image views statistics available through wikistats - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14890  (10N/A)
[17:49:41] <barcalex>	alnokta, php_value disable_function "" ... nothing changed
[17:50:55] <alnokta>	barcalex, don't know, remove the file then.. 
[17:51:34] <barcalex>	alnokta, ok, but thanks anyway - u helped me a lot
[17:52:57] <alnokta>	barcalex, make a file inf.php and add <?php phpinfo(); ?> inside it and upload
[17:55:24] <barcalex>	alnokta, done, it is still working now, but the error is still there
[17:56:17] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Redirects do not support named anchors - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=218  +comment (10Simetrical+wikibugs)
[17:58:14] <alnokta>	barcalex, yes , that is just a file to see your php config. see http://www.allekochen.com/inf.php , now try that: http://tips-scripts.com/?tip=php_ini
[17:59:09] <alnokta>	barcalex, $parm[] = "disable_functions = ''";
[17:59:45] <[KrusheR]>	is there any good tutorial about making a PHP bot?
[18:01:25] <Nikerabbit>	why would you make a bot in php
[18:01:49] <barcalex>	alnokta, i want me to make a file called php.ini and give            $parm[] = "disable_functions = ???";    into it ?
[18:02:39] <[KrusheR]>	Nikerabbit i know better the language
[18:03:19] <Nikerabbit>	[KrusheR]: and what would the bot do?
[18:03:41] <[KrusheR]>	the usual, add signatures to unsigned discussions and such
[18:03:53] <[KrusheR]>	greet new users etc.
[18:04:08] <alnokta>	barcalex, no, read the page i linked you 
[18:04:17] <Nikerabbit>	well, you need to find some suitable http/net library... or write extension to mediawiki or something
[18:04:23] <barcalex>	alnokta, ok thx
[18:04:30] <Nikerabbit>	but that is not really something we can guide you in
[18:04:38] <[KrusheR]>	aha
[18:04:42] <[KrusheR]>	thank you anyway
[18:04:47] *Jack_Phoenix 	waves to ialex :-)
[18:04:57] <ialex>	hi Jack_Phoenix :)
[18:05:08] <Jack_Phoenix>	rar
[18:05:20] <Nikerabbit>	hi Jack_Phoenix!
[18:05:31] <skyfaller_ppc>	hey folks... does anybody here know anything about Semantic Mediawiki + Semantic Forms?
[18:05:55] <Jack_Phoenix>	heya Nikerabbit
[18:06:26] <Nikerabbit>	skyfaller_ppc: that is not very specific quesion :o
[18:06:37] <Nikerabbit>	Jack_Phoenix: you are not getting paid, are you?
[18:06:51] <Jack_Phoenix>	heh, nope
[18:07:11] <Nikerabbit>	I thought so
[18:07:30] <Nikerabbit>	we were talking yesterday who gets paid to work in mediawiki related stuff and what kind of stuff brings you money
[18:07:36] <CIA-55>	03jhsoby * r38102 10/trunk/extensions/SemanticMediaWiki/languages/SMW_Messages.php: Revert r38101, per Nike
[18:07:49] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Protecting a page causes problems - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14947  (10meno25wiki)
[18:07:53] <alnokta>	[KrusheR], http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:AtyndallBot/Source#sxwiki.class.php
[18:08:08] <[KrusheR]>	alnokta i'll give it a look, thank you
[18:08:23] <skyfaller_ppc>	Nikerabbit: alright, more specifically, I am trying to create a dropdown menu with a few values in Semantic Mediawiki + Semantic Forms, do you know how?
[18:08:55] <alnokta>	Nikerabbit, you thinking of going pro?
[18:09:02] <Nikerabbit>	skyfaller_ppc: nope
[18:09:28] <Nikerabbit>	skyfaller_ppc: and none of the devs are never hear or communicate (correct me if I'm wrong on this!), so we can't really help with those either :/
[18:09:34] <CIA-55>	03ialex * r38103 10/trunk/phase3/includes/Title.php: Fix comment (Title::newFromTitle -> Title::newFromName) and mark Title::nameOf() as public static instead of doing this with in comments
[18:09:35] <Nikerabbit>	never here*
[18:10:08] <Nikerabbit>	alnokta: pro in which way?
[18:11:26] <akjohnson>	Nikerabbit: I have seen some SMW devs here now and again, but I don't know how often
[18:11:28] <Nikerabbit>	weird, before I never confused words which sound similar in writing
[18:11:47] <Nikerabbit>	akjohnson: ah indeed, yannf was asking here for help yesterday!
[18:12:44] <alnokta>	Nikerabbit, nvm 
[18:13:55] <Nikerabbit>	alnokta: you started, don't stop now
[18:14:05] <[KrusheR]>	why does api.php says this? "API must be accessed through the primary script entry point."
[18:14:24] <Nikerabbit>	because there was some security issue probably
[18:15:13] <CIA-55>	03simetrical * r38104 10/trunk/phase3/includes/specials/SpecialRecentchanges.php: 
[18:15:13] <CIA-55>	Indeed, this is a ResultWrapper object, so we can iterate over it: no ugly while
[18:15:13] <CIA-55>	loops. In fact, we don't even have to bother creating the array. A few quick
[18:15:13] <CIA-55>	tests show >100 KB peak memory usage drop even on a quite small RC, a couple
[18:15:13] <CIA-55>	dozen items.
[18:15:29] <Guido_d_Br>	Hi, why do the navigation shortcuts only work after hitting enter?
[18:15:32] <Nikerabbit>	Simetrical: nice!
[18:15:39] <Nikerabbit>	Guido_d_Br: which ones?
[18:15:46] <Guido_d_Br>	All of them
[18:15:53] <Nikerabbit>	Guido_d_Br: you mean access keys?
[18:15:58] <Guido_d_Br>	Yes
[18:16:12] <Nikerabbit>	Guido_d_Br: which browser are you using?
[18:16:13] <alnokta>	Nikerabbit, pro in mw development :)
[18:16:18] <Guido_d_Br>	IEX 7
[18:16:26] <Nikerabbit>	hmm
[18:16:37] <Nikerabbit>	sounds weird
[18:16:43] <Nikerabbit>	Guido_d_Br: are you the only one?
[18:16:54] <Guido_d_Br>	I wouldn't know
[18:17:07] <wikibugs>	03(mod)  Use Preprocessor_Hash by default to avoid missing DOM module errors - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13770  +comment (10Simetrical+wikibugs)
[18:17:11] <Nikerabbit>	alnokta: pro as in "get paid for it"?
[18:17:29] <Nikerabbit>	Guido_d_Br: is it in all MediaWikies or just in some?
[18:17:29] <Guido_d_Br>	They don't work normally for me on any Wiki
[18:17:34] <Guido_d_Br>	All
[18:18:00] <Nikerabbit>	I would suspect it is your browser or it's plugins acting, but I cannot tell
[18:18:17] <Guido_d_Br>	They work ok for you?
[18:18:18] <Simetrical>	Nikerabbit, I don't know if it's actually accurate . . . the RC table is only a few hundred bytes per row average.  But hey, that's what I got.
[18:18:22] <Nikerabbit>	if you can get someone to confirm it using the same version, it would be nice
[18:18:41] <alnokta>	Nikerabbit, exactly
[18:18:49] <alnokta>	hello Simetrical 
[18:18:53] <Nikerabbit>	Simetrical: mm I wonder if it breaks my cleanchanges... have to check :)
[18:18:59] <Nikerabbit>	alnokta: well, I'm already
[18:19:07] <Guido_d_Br>	Must be my browser then
[18:20:27] <Nikerabbit>	 if ( !class_exists( 'UtfNormal' ) ) {
[18:20:27] <Nikerabbit>	       require_once( dirname(__FILE__) . '/normal/UtfNormal.php' );
[18:20:28] <Nikerabbit>	 }
[18:20:32] <Nikerabbit>	can't autoloader do that?
[18:20:55] <Nikerabbit>	in Title.php
[18:20:57] <Guido_d_Br>	Btw, can I change the access keys, and add new ones?
[18:21:52] <Nikerabbit>	Guido_d_Br: you can change some of them by customising mediawiki:accesskey-*
[18:22:13] <Nikerabbit>	and the old ta array in javascript should probably work also, but it complicated to explain
[18:22:49] <Guido_d_Br>	If I make a new acceskey page for, say, newpages, would the key work?
[18:23:19] <Nikerabbit>	Simetrical: which function did you change?
[18:23:40] <Nikerabbit>	Guido_d_Br: only with the javascript way, and not necessarily even then
[18:23:56] <Guido_d_Br>	Hmmm
[18:27:17] <Xiong>	woof
[18:27:19] <Xiong>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/wiki/Solution%3ACircumscribed_Trapezoid
[18:28:05] <Nikerabbit>	meow
[18:29:03] <Xiong>	blast
[18:29:11] <Nikerabbit>	bluff?
[18:29:30] <Xiong>	i still have to upload the figure
[18:29:37] <Xiong>	text doesn't make much sense without it
[18:30:05] <Nikerabbit>	Xiong: indeed
[18:30:26] <Xiong>	so busy grooming my eyebrows i didn't notice i'd left the house with no pants on
[18:30:55] <Nikerabbit>	It's kinda sad I was blown away from maths because of matrix and geometrical proofs
[18:31:49] <alnokta>	isn't programming = maths rabbit
[18:32:55] <Nikerabbit>	rabbits' math?
[18:34:35] <alnokta>	the only math rabbits have is how fast they should run when they are being hunted
[18:35:38] <Nikerabbit>	or how much grass they can eat before they explode (or poop)
[18:35:46] <alnokta>	:)
[18:36:58] <Simetrical>	Nikerabbit, which function does it look like I changed?  execute().
[18:37:09] <Nikerabbit>	Simetrical: doesn't show in the diff
[18:37:20] <Nikerabbit>	too lazy to open up the file
[18:39:17] <Simetrical>	:)
[18:39:55] <Xiong>	i'm going to kill myself right now
[18:40:08] <[KrusheR]>	Xiong can i have your car?
[18:40:12] <Xiong>	i carefully built up an entire series of intricate constructions, all within the same bounds
[18:40:19] <Xiong>	as is my practice
[18:40:38] <Xiong>	i draw a box in freehand and set it to no fill, no stroke, which define the bounding box in the EPS
[18:40:48] <Xiong>	so when i rasterize in photoshop, they all come out the same
[18:41:27] <Xiong>	and i just spent 2 hours fixing up one more figure in the series, only to find that i'd screwed up my workfile and moved the bounds box
[18:41:51] <Xiong>	krusher, you do not want my car
[18:41:51] <Shown>	i'm running MediaWiki: 1.11.1 and would like to upgrade
[18:42:00] <Xiong>	trust me
[18:42:15] <[KrusheR]>	Xiong i bet it's better than mine
[18:42:18] <Xiong>	if i drive up to your house with a bill of sale and a shotgun, you will not take my car
[18:42:18] <Shown>	what version should i download?
[18:42:34] <Xiong>	not if i throw in a six pack of coors
[18:43:03] <GreenReaper>	Shown: Well, if you can wait a few days, you might want to go to 1.13
[18:43:10] <GreenReaper>	It's not yet released, though.
[18:43:16] <GreenReaper>	The latest is 1.12.0
[18:43:23] <Nikerabbit>	hello
[18:43:30] <Shown>	my biggest concern is about
[18:43:42] <Shown>	do i have to upgrade to 1.12 and then to 1.13?
[18:43:53] <GreenReaper>	No, I do not believe that is necessary
[18:44:08] <Shown>	ok
[18:44:08] <CIA-55>	03ialex * r38105 10/trunk/phase3/docs/hooks.txt: Avoid using $this, it is a reserved word
[18:45:01] <Nikerabbit>	ialex: :Oj
[18:45:41] <CIA-55>	03river * r38106 10/trunk/switchboard/swexec.c: set PHP_FCGI_MAX_REQUESTS to a reasonable value
[18:55:47] <josch>	hey i searched the bugtracker for this issue but without success... i imported dewiki and enwiki locally and with both of them all interwiki links were rendered nicely in the letf navigation column after importing the corresponding interwiki table. now with frwiki and jawiki i did the same but the links still appear on the bottom of the page in red - what could i be missing?
[18:58:48] <Duesentrieb>	josch: clear the cache. touch the respective LocalSettings to invalidate all cached oages.
[18:59:01] <Duesentrieb>	or try in edit preview
[18:59:06] <josch>	Duesentrieb, did that
[18:59:36] <Duesentrieb>	then doublecheck that the right data is in the right table, check database name and table prefix
[18:59:46] <Duesentrieb>	other than that, no idea
[19:00:00] <CIA-55>	03simetrical * r38107 10/trunk/phase3/includes/ (5 files): 
[19:00:00] <CIA-55>	* Add count() method to TitleArray and UserArray.
[19:00:00] <CIA-55>	* Change PageHistory::fetchRevisions() to return a result object instead of an array of rows.
[19:00:00] <CIA-55>	* Stylistic issues: use foreach( $res as $row ) instead of while( $row = $dbr->fetchObject( $res ) ), change a couple of variable names, use __METHOD__.
[19:00:00] <CIA-55>	There should be no functional changes.
[19:00:09] <josch>	Duesentrieb, darn... :(
[19:02:10] <Xiong>	why no preview on the summary box on image upload?
[19:02:39] <Simetrical>	Oh, and I removed a bunch of pointless if( $dbr->numRows( $res ) ).
[19:02:58] <ialex>	\o/
[19:03:31] <Nikerabbit>	:o
[19:04:29] <Duesentrieb>	Xiong: because teh image will be uploaded to get that preview, and it's messy to deal with that. anajax based solution would be nice. no one write it. it's not trivial to get it right.
[19:05:17] <Xiong>	no, let the preview button only preview the text; don't upload
[19:05:31] <Xiong>	that's asking too much
[19:05:50] <Xiong>	by the time you've "temporarily" uploaded the image, you may as well have uploaded it "for real"
[19:06:08] <Duesentrieb>	but you can't do that
[19:06:19] <Duesentrieb>	if you hit submit, the file *will* be uploaded.
[19:06:19] <Xiong>	can't preview the text?
[19:06:22] <Duesentrieb>	that's the problem
[19:06:30] <Xiong>	obviously, another button is needed
[19:06:42] <Duesentrieb>	then you have two separate forms
[19:06:50] <Duesentrieb>	then users always need to perform the upload separatly
[19:06:56] <Xiong>	?
[19:07:13] <Duesentrieb>	how do you make a submit button that onyl submits some fields of a form but not others?
[19:07:13] <Xiong>	how can i preview a regular edit to a regular page without committing the change?
[19:07:21] <Duesentrieb>	or how do you make a submit button that submits two forms?
[19:07:24] <Xiong>	the save button doesn't do the same thing as the preview button
[19:07:26] <Duesentrieb>	bot is impossible without JS
[19:07:54] <Duesentrieb>	you can have two submit buttons that trigger different actions
[19:08:11] <Duesentrieb>	but both will submit the same data, with the exception of the value of the button itself
[19:08:19] <Duesentrieb>	that's a limitation of html
[19:08:20] <Xiong>	... and the image upload preview button would simply ignore the file
[19:08:33] <Xiong>	wouldn't ask for it
[19:08:34] <Duesentrieb>	but you can not do that. html does not provide a way to do it.
[19:08:50] <Duesentrieb>	there's a form. there's a submit button. that button sends everything
[19:08:52] <Duesentrieb>	period.
[19:09:06] <Xiong>	really? it's totally a client side thing?
[19:09:09] <Xiong>	didn't know that
[19:09:26] <Xiong>	i thought the server had to ask for the file and the form just told it what to ask for
[19:09:40] <Duesentrieb>	no. that would be dangerous.
[19:09:48] <Duesentrieb>	the server could ask for whatever
[19:09:51] <Xiong>	yeh, i can see that
[19:09:54] <Xiong>	but never thought about it
[19:10:16] <Duesentrieb>	that's also the reason "multi-upload" is really tricky
[19:10:17] <Xiong>	i'm a systems man, most details elude me until they bite me on the shorts
[19:10:29] <Duesentrieb>	there's just a single-file input field supplied by html. no way around it
[19:11:34] <Xiong>	what's this stuff now?
[19:11:54] <Xiong>	usta be, you floated two things and they ended up beside one another, not one on top
[19:12:56] <Xiong>	blast
[19:13:18] <Xiong>	if i float the image left, indents aren't respected unless i throw the text in a div
[19:13:59] <Xiong>	-- not then, either
[19:15:32] <Nikerabbit>	Simetrical: looks like fetchObject is very common in the code
[19:16:57] <Xiong>	i'm becoming a no-tables apostate
[19:17:07] <Xiong>	http://www.beyondeuclid.com/wiki/Solution%3ACircumscribed_Trapezoid
[19:17:09] <Xiong>	done
[19:17:26] <Xiong>	now i'm going to watch sissy spacek blow herself up
[19:17:34] <Duesentrieb>	Xiong: <div style="display:table">...
[19:17:49] <Lady_Aleena>	In what film does Sissy Spacek blow herself up?
[19:17:57] <Xiong>	"katherine"
[19:18:14] <Xiong>	surprisingly good for a teevee movie
[19:18:17] <Simetrical>	Nikerabbit, it's been less than a year since Tim added an iterable ResultWrapper, IIRC.
[19:18:21] <Lady_Aleena>	Christine?
[19:18:21] <Xiong>	i got it on budget dvd
[19:18:44] <Nikerabbit>	Simetrical: mm
[19:18:46] <Xiong>	katherine, with henry winkler as the SDS bf
[19:19:23] <Xiong>	it's about the sixties, you know, back when we had telephones that plugged into the wall
[19:20:14] *Lady_Aleena 	looks it up.
[19:20:35] <Xiong>	dues, i appreciate the suggestion but i'm done fooling with it
[19:20:44] <Xiong>	it displays well enough
[19:21:01] <Xiong>	it's a wiki, if someone wants to improve the markup, they will
[19:21:10] <Lady_Aleena>	Xiong, I remember those days well. I remember once owning a black and white tv.
[19:21:13] <Xiong>	i've done the math
[19:21:44] <Xiong>	well then, LA, you also remember SDS
[19:21:57] <Xiong>	and you can see how sissy blows herself up
[19:22:19] <Xiong>	i don't *think* this qualifies as a spoiler; the end is contained in the opening act
[19:23:36] <Lady_Aleena>	Which SDS are you talking about?
[19:24:03] <Xiong>	students for a democratic society
[19:24:25] <Nikerabbit>	Simetrical: what's wrong with "implements Countable" ?
[19:24:39] <Simetrical>	Nikerabbit, I didn't know such a thing existed.
[19:24:42] <Lady_Aleena>	Xiong, I am a little too young for that. I was born in the 70s.
[19:24:42] <Simetrical>	Nikerabbit, if it does, please fix.  :)
[19:24:48] <CIA-55>	03aaron * r38108 10/trunk/phase3/includes/Article.php: set baseRevId (bug 14947)
[19:24:57] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Protecting a page causes problems - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14947  (10JSchulz_4587)
[19:25:03] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED) Protecting a page causes problems - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14947  +comment (10JSchulz_4587)
[19:25:12] <josch>	Duesentrieb, okay i got the reason
[19:25:15] <Lady_Aleena>	Xiong, re: tables, good for data, bad for layout, your view right?
[19:25:18] <josch>	maybe i should bugreport it
[19:25:19] <Nikerabbit>	Simetrical: I'm using it in my extension
[19:25:29] <Nikerabbit>	for some reason it doesn't seem to be documented anywhere
[19:25:43] <Nikerabbit>	but there is things like "  class ArrayIterator   implements Iterator   , Traversable   , ArrayAccess   , SeekableIterator   , Countable   {"
[19:26:07] <josch>	the problem only occurs when i import the interwiki data into a charset=binary table - if i use latin1 then everything is fine but the characters in the table get messed up :/
[19:26:10] <Nikerabbit>	Simetrical: http://www.php.net/~helly/php/ext/spl/interfaceCountable.html
[19:26:28] <Nikerabbit>	since php 5.1 :<
[19:27:23] <Nikerabbit>	I wonder when will we drop PHP 5.0
[19:27:39] <Simetrical>	Oh, never mind then.
[19:27:42] <Simetrical>	Probably not for a while.
[19:27:47] <Simetrical>	Tim thought we moved to PHP 5 too fast.
[19:28:31] <Nikerabbit>	Simetrical: mm weird
[19:28:41] <Nikerabbit>	the benefits of it can be seen
[19:28:50] <Simetrical>	Not for third parties on shared hosting.
[19:29:43] <Nikerabbit>	I relly don't care for those php4-safemode-weirdfilter-noshellaccess-shared hosts
[19:29:48] <wikibugs>	03(mod)  Use Preprocessor_Hash by default to avoid missing DOM module errors - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13770  (10Bryan.TongMinh)
[19:30:49] <Simetrical>	Nikerabbit, yeah, neither do I, but it seems Tim does.
[19:32:22] <Nikerabbit>	very noble, but really, I care even Windows more than those
[19:33:43] <Bryan>	somebody here with mediawiki on php with a broken xml?
[19:36:11] <CIA-55>	03ashley * r38109 10/trunk/tools/planet/en/config.ini: Add some blogs from [[m:Planet Wikimedia]] & change one URL. Requested by Cbrown1023.
[19:36:15] <Simetrical>	Bryan, I could deliberately break mine if desired.  :)  One minute.
[19:37:45] <Nikerabbit>	Simetrical: mmm ArrayIterator could do it for us
[19:37:57] <Nikerabbit>	except it is not an array, darn
[19:38:20] <Nikerabbit>	DirectoryIterator ... that could be useful
[19:38:36] <Bryan>	php should be wacked for the fact that there are two extension which define incompatible classes with the same name
[19:39:51] <Bryan>	the one I linked to in the bug report appears to be actually the correct one, the one in the php manual one below is probably the broken one
[19:40:51] <wikibugs>	14(DUP) Cannot run mediawiki - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14945  +comment (10rockmfr)
[19:40:51] <Bryan>	I'm confused
[19:40:56] <wikibugs>	03(mod) After installing MediaWiki - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14911  (10rockmfr)
[19:41:47] <wikibugs>	14(DUP) After installing MediaWiki - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14911  +comment (10Bryan.TongMinh)
[19:41:56] <wikibugs>	03(mod)  Use Preprocessor_Hash by default to avoid missing DOM module errors - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13770  +comment (10Bryan.TongMinh)
[19:45:23] <Chriswaterguy>	is this a good place to ask about installing javascript code? 
[19:45:43] <Chriswaterguy>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mr.Z-man/moverevert.js works fine on Wikipedia for me, but I want to have it on my Appropedia account.
[19:46:22] <Bryan>	copy-paste should work
[19:46:48] <Chriswaterguy>	k. it doesn't and not sure why - I have a modified skin, don't know if that would conflict
[19:46:51] <Duesentrieb>	well, creating that page does nothing
[19:47:00] <Duesentrieb>	you'll have to link it in
[19:47:26] <Chriswaterguy>	(http://www.appropedia.org/User:Chriswaterguy/monobook.js - a draft skin - is that a possible conflict?)
[19:50:14] <Bryan>	Chriswaterguy: you don't have importScript on that wiki; use the direct document.write trick
[19:50:42] <Bryan>	those guys should really update their mediawiki
[19:51:02] <Nikerabbit>	which?
[19:51:10] <Bryan>	appro
[19:51:18] <Nikerabbit>	baa
[19:51:28] <Nikerabbit>	everyone should
[19:52:09] <Nikerabbit>	but if we stopped releasing security fixes for old version, we could also stop supporting those who do not update... it doesn't make sense to support version which have security holes, does it :D
[19:52:58] <Nikerabbit>	I bet somebody will have something against that idea :)
[19:53:42] <Bryan>	even so people don't update to the latest security update
[19:53:48] <Bryan>	this wiki is 1.11.0
[19:54:10] <Chriswaterguy>	Bryan: ahhhhh... I'm impressed
[19:54:37] <alnokta>	hint: auto-update 
[19:54:59] <alnokta>	or auto-notify the email entered in installer 
[19:55:17] <alnokta>	there is a new copy of mw, update now or else.
[19:56:01] <Duesentrieb>	alnokta: people should subscribe to mediawiki-announce-l
[19:56:06] <Duesentrieb>	that's the idea
[19:56:15] <Duesentrieb>	don't think you can sanely automate that
[19:56:23] <Duesentrieb>	rss would be a possibility i guess
[19:56:29] <Duesentrieb>	could be polled
[19:57:01] <alnokta>	you can, no download until you enter a fake email address to signup (or you can make it harder by requring that they confirm the email :P)
[19:57:04] <Chriswaterguy>	we need a tech team on Appropedia - some geeks who want to support a sustainability/appropriate tech effort.
[19:57:11] <Nikerabbit>	mm
[19:57:36] <Chriswaterguy>	our main MediaWiki guy is in Mexico doing development work, for another week
[19:58:02] <Duesentrieb>	the feed exists
[19:58:02] <Duesentrieb>	http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/wiki/mediawiki-announce.xml
[19:58:24] <Duesentrieb>	just make an extension that polls it (similar like  the spam blacklist extension does it)
[19:58:35] <Nikerabbit>	??rnau
[19:58:43] <Duesentrieb>	if it has new entries, push it on a selected user or all users in a special group
[19:59:00] <Duesentrieb>	the hardest part is actually how to show it, and what exactly to show
[19:59:05] <Duesentrieb>	getting the info is actually simple
[19:59:10] <alnokta>	tail page message?
[19:59:16] <alnokta>	*talk
[19:59:22] <Duesentrieb>	no.
[19:59:27] <Duesentrieb>	that would need a process
[19:59:32] <Nikerabbit>	Duesentrieb: spam the email once a day
[19:59:35] <Duesentrieb>	should be skin based
[19:59:46] <Duesentrieb>	Nikerabbit: that needs a daemon or cron job too
[19:59:48] <alnokta>	something that just appears 
[19:59:51] <Duesentrieb>	i want it to be passive
[19:59:56] <alnokta>	like an annoying banner
[19:59:59] <Duesentrieb>	yep
[20:00:03] <Duesentrieb>	basically like newtalk
[20:00:07] <alnokta>	that never goes away until you upgrade 
[20:00:10] <Nikerabbit>	Duesentrieb: well, just hook on page load.. if nobody is using the wiki, no reason to update :D
[20:00:13] <Duesentrieb>	i think there's even a hook for adding stuff there
[20:00:47] <Duesentrieb>	Nikerabbit: sure. i'm actually tempted to write that :)
[20:00:49] <Duesentrieb>	not now though
[20:00:52] <Duesentrieb>	exam next week
[20:00:58] <Chriswaterguy>	Bryan: is this right?:    document.write('<script type="text/javascript" src="' + 'http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Mr.Z-man/moverevert.js' + '&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript"></' + 'script>');
[20:00:58] *Duesentrieb 	goes back to studying
[20:01:15] <Nikerabbit>	:o
[20:01:17] <alnokta>	exam in what?
[20:01:34] <Bryan>	Chriswaterguy: looks so
[20:02:38] <Chriswaterguy>	and if we update our MW, it would be:  importScript('http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Mr.Z-man/moverevert.js');    ?
[20:02:50] <Chriswaterguy>	or    importScript('http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mr.Z-man/moverevert.js');      ?
[20:07:33] <Xiong>	lady aleena: sorry
[20:07:42] <wikibugs>	03(mod) MediaWiki:Rcnote at Watchlist page - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14937  (10i.am.putnik)
[20:07:43] <Xiong>	i was watching the show
[20:07:46] <Lady_Aleena>	Sorry for what?
[20:08:06] <Xiong>	the modern view is as you say: tables good for table-type content only
[20:08:14] <Xiong>	never for general-purpose layout
[20:08:35] <Xiong>	the archetype of the "correct" use of a table is a multiplication table, for instance
[20:08:38] <Lady_Aleena>	Oh! *laughs*
[20:08:56] <Xiong>	the archetype of the bad table is the huge banner stretched across a porn site
[20:08:59] <Lady_Aleena>	Sorry, I went onto other things and forgot about it.
[20:09:16] <Xiong>	all sliced up into little images and formatted with nested tables
[20:09:27] <Xiong>	now, that's the modern view
[20:09:33] <Lady_Aleena>	But using that mantra, I redid my entire website, almost. I even got rid of frames. :)
[20:09:41] <Xiong>	let the page be readable with no formatting at all
[20:09:57] <Chriswaterguy>	Bryan - it's not working
[20:10:00] <Xiong>	and use css to *present* -- to format, to add style, color, and looks
[20:10:07] <Xiong>	and i have tried to adhere to that
[20:10:18] <Xiong>	but in the end, it's often so much easier to use a table
[20:10:21] <Lady_Aleena>	Xiong, I be a good little markup programmer, I use CSS.
[20:10:29] <Lady_Aleena>	:)
[20:10:46] <Xiong>	i threw out everything i'd learned about HTML and web design and i got on the css bandwagon
[20:10:53] <Xiong>	and i still use it heavily
[20:10:59] <wikibugs>	03(mod) MediaWiki:Rcnote at Watchlist page - 10http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14937  (10niklas.laxstrom)
[20:10:59] <Xiong>	but i'm no longer a diehard
[20:11:36] <Lady_Aleena>	Xiong, I love CSS.
[20:11:45] <Xiong>	the plain fact is that the entire web paradigm is broken
[20:11:57] <Xiong>	it's nothing like what it ought to be
[20:12:12] <Xiong>	browsers all render pages differently and not just because their users desire it
[20:12:17] <Lady_Aleena>	Xiong, CSS cut the size of my website in half.
[20:12:23] <Xiong>	the whole IE fiasco
[20:12:29] <Lady_Aleena>	IE is evil.
[20:12:38] <Xiong>	perhaps the stupidest thing is the way links are handled
[20:12:56] <Lady_Aleena>	See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lady_Aleena#Messages to visitors
[20:13:02] <Xiong>	so that any page that's a year or two old usually has broken links everywhere
[20:13:28] <Lady_Aleena>	Too bad there can't be universal red links.
[20:13:40] <Xiong>	the whole domain name nightmare
[20:14:30] <Lady_Aleena>	Okay, Xiong, this conversation might be better if it shifted to PM to keep the channel clear. :)
[20:14:59] <Xiong>	well it's actually much on topic
[20:15:10] <Xiong>	MW is starting to do right what the web does wrong
[20:15:21] <Xiong>	when you move a page, a redirect is left behind, for instance
[20:15:29] <Xiong>	so it's much harder to break links
[20:15:49] <Xiong>	pages are archived, so edits are worry-free
[20:15:54] <Lady_Aleena>	Xiong, I know about the move leaving redirects, I have moved enough pages.
[20:16:05] <Xiong>	instead of the FTP nightmare, where did my good page go?
[20:16:27] <Xiong>	and of course you get the preview and the reasonably user-friendly markup
[20:16:34] <Xiong>	instead of the cumbersome HTML
[20:16:43] <Lady_Aleena>	Xiong, the program for WM had to be uploaded sometime, probably using FTP or something similar.
[20:16:56] <Xiong>	and the wiki enforces content over style, at least to a point
[20:17:11] <Xiong>	well that's computing for you
[20:17:16] <Lady_Aleena>	Xiong, HTML is not cumbersome if used correctly.
[20:17:20] <Xiong>	you use one tool to build the next
[20:17:36] <Lady_Aleena>	HTML+CSS is a good thing.
[20:17:51] <Xiong>	html gets my raspberry from the very beginning, using <> to delimit tags, which requires the shift key
[20:18:00] <wikibugs>	03(mod) MediaWiki:Rcnote at Watchlist page - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14937  (10i.am.putnik)
[20:18:03] <Lady_Aleena>	So?
[20:18:13] <Xiong>	so that slows you down
[20:18:31] <Lady_Aleena>	Wikicode uses | to delimit things, also requiring the shift key.
[20:18:36] <Xiong>	or, look at the nonsense you have to type to get an image to display
[20:18:37] <Lady_Aleena>	Or :
[20:18:56] <Xiong>	yes, but the <> are required for *all*
[20:19:00] <Chriswaterguy>	Bryan: (or anyone who knows the script thing) my colleague tried adding that code to his monobook.js file (and he uses the standard monobook skin) and didn't get the extra tab either. Any ideas?
[20:19:03] <Lady_Aleena>	Xiong, I don't use images on my website.
[20:19:07] <Xiong>	even such a simple thing as '''bold'''
[20:19:22] <Lady_Aleena>	font-weight:bold;
[20:19:31] <Xiong>	that's even worse
[20:19:40] <Lady_Aleena>	Xiong, why worse?
[20:20:15] <Xiong>	if you're just styling a single word, you don't really want to use <span style="font-weight: bold;">yes</span>
[20:20:17] <Xiong>	do you?
[20:20:33] <Xiong>	i almost broke a knuckle typing that, just now
[20:20:39] <Lady_Aleena>	No, but I don't usually format single words.
[20:20:43] <Xiong>	'''bold''' is correct
[20:20:59] <Lady_Aleena>	Xiong, that is just wikicode that is then translated into HTML.
[20:21:09] <Duesentrieb>	who the *hell* would *ever* need to highlight single words?
[20:21:14] <Xiong>	well if you don't do any formatting, it doesn't matter
[20:21:22] <Xiong>	are you serious, dues?
[20:21:30] <Lady_Aleena>	Duesentrieb, the title of a work such as a novel or film?
[20:21:39] <Xiong>	the wreck of the /Titanic/
[20:22:00] <Lady_Aleena>	Xiong, oh, I do a lot of formatting, but I use a style sheet.
[20:22:00] <Xiong>	i do /not/ want cheese on my burger
[20:22:09] <Duesentrieb>	i'm so _serious_ i even use pseudo-markup to emphesize it
[20:22:11] <Duesentrieb>	in single words
[20:22:22] <wikibugs>	03(mod) MediaWiki:Rcnote at Watchlist page - 10http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14937  (10niklas.laxstrom)
[20:22:46] <Xiong>	well, you follow my irc and you'll see i use *bold*, /italic/, and occasionally _underline_, too
[20:22:52] <Nikerabbit>	mmm
[20:22:53] <Xiong>	i can't avoid it
[20:22:56] <alnokta>	lol
[20:22:58] <Lady_Aleena>	Xiong, you should see the style sheet for my website, it make a lot of people cringe because it is so long.
[20:23:04] <Duesentrieb>	that was my point :)
[20:23:12] <alnokta>	Duesentrieb, you have an exam to make?
[20:23:14] <Xiong>	no stylesheet will make writing html painless
[20:23:16] <Nikerabbit>	Duesentrieb: can you hit me if I go off-topic in that bug please
[20:23:23] <Xiong>	not near as easy as MW markup
[20:23:35] <Duesentrieb>	alnokta: hrm, yea
[20:24:03] <Lady_Aleena>	Xiong, MW markup is just the lazy way to make a web page. There is no way in the world I can ever see the W3C ever supporting anything like it.
[20:24:11] <Xiong>	it's gotten so that sometimes, when i need some html, i open a sandbox on a wiki -- any wiki
[20:24:15] <alnokta>	go prep then and mw will still be here
[20:24:25] <Xiong>	write, then copy out the rendered source on preview
[20:24:36] <Duesentrieb>	Nikerabbit: hrm? well, you are both right, of course :)
[20:24:41] <Xiong>	well, i'm an engineer, therefore lazy by trade
[20:24:52] <Duesentrieb>	Nikerabbit: btw, it would be nice to have MediaWiki:foo/qqq working...
[20:25:05] <Duesentrieb>	Nikerabbit: could be helpful for cases just like this one
[20:25:24] <Lady_Aleena>	Xiong, HTML and CSS are here to stay, for the forseeable future, so get used to it.
[20:25:29] <Nikerabbit>	Duesentrieb: working where?
[20:25:34] <Duesentrieb>	alnokta: irc is procrastination unlimited :)
[20:25:45] <Xiong>	MW is here to stay, so i committed to it
[20:25:46] <Duesentrieb>	Nikerabbit: everywhere. wikipedia. wherever.
[20:26:28] <Lady_Aleena>	Xiong, MW code is not ever going to leave the wiki type websites. If you want to write a page from scratch, you will need HTML and CSS.
[20:26:35] <Xiong>	" According to Perl folklore, the three great virtues of a programmer are Laziness, Impatience and Hubris, in that order."
[20:26:35] <Duesentrieb>	Nikerabbit: uselang=qqq would get a bit odd, i suppose :P
[20:26:36] <Nikerabbit>	Duesentrieb: I'm not very hopefull that my extension is ever enabled on wmf
[20:26:36] <alnokta>	Duesentrieb, sure it is ;)
[20:26:54] <alnokta>	Nikerabbit, thats every devs dream :)
[20:26:58] <Duesentrieb>	Nikerabbit: not need for that. just export MessagesQqq...
[20:26:59] <Lady_Aleena>	Xiong, {{who}}
[20:27:31] <Nikerabbit>	Duesentrieb: also, qqq just happens to be the code we use at Betawiki
[20:27:39] <Xiong>	http://wiki.preshweb.co.uk/doku.php?id=perl:virtues
[20:27:58] <Duesentrieb>	Nikerabbit: doesn't matter. i jjust want to be able to look at it and refer prople there.
[20:28:15] <Duesentrieb>	Nikerabbit: in odd cases, it could say where the message is used, and how. or what params are available
[20:28:30] <Duesentrieb>	Nikerabbit: let's not talk about localizing that documentation, though :)
[20:28:47] <Nikerabbit>	Duesentrieb: :oo
[20:28:52] <Nikerabbit>	Duesentrieb: can't you link to betawiki?
[20:28:55] <Xiong>	i gotta finish my movie and sleep again
[20:29:02] *Lady_Aleena 	giggles after reading the link.
[20:29:06] <Duesentrieb>	Nikerabbit: i could... i we have an interwiki prefix?
[20:29:16] <BlackSmith>	Hello, is there any easy to way to have each category page to have link to that categorys name? e.g. C:blaa would have link to blaa.
[20:29:20] <Duesentrieb>	Nikerabbit: anyway... translating that would be i18^2n :)
[20:29:22] <Nikerabbit>	Duesentrieb: betawiki: prolly
[20:29:54] <Nikerabbit>	Duesentrieb: check from [[Wikipedia]], it links to betawiki stats
[20:30:06] <Nikerabbit>	err, [[MediaWiki]] probably
[20:30:07] <Duesentrieb>	yea, well.
[20:30:42] <Duesentrieb>	would be nice anyway to have this stuff under svn control, etc
[20:30:48] <Duesentrieb>	anyway, back to studying.
[20:30:55] <Lady_Aleena>	BlackSmith, let me try something, brb.
[20:31:05] <Duesentrieb>	tableau calculus for first order logic, here i come
[20:31:08] <Nikerabbit>	Duesentrieb: could be read-only until I got to fix it
[20:31:38] <Duesentrieb>	mebbe
[20:31:39] <alnokta>	yuck calculus 
[20:31:50] <BlackSmith>	BTW and presuming there is a article with that name
[20:32:42] <Nikerabbit>	Duesentrieb: detach from the server helps in studying...
[20:32:54] <Lady_Aleena>	BlackSmith, if you have the magic word PAGENAME, you can create the following template...
[20:33:28] <Lady_Aleena>	{{#ifexist:{{PAGENAME}}|[[{{PAGENAME}}]]}}
[20:33:31] <Lady_Aleena>	I think.
[20:33:34] <BlackSmith>	yeah, i have a temaplte that does jsut that but pasting that temaplte on every category page is bit ..tacing.
[20:33:44] <BlackSmith>	-taxing too
[20:34:28] <Lady_Aleena>	Is this for a private wiki?
[20:34:35] <BlackSmith>	yes
[20:34:59] <Lady_Aleena>	There might be a way to do what you want, but you would have to talk to the gods, I am just a peon. Sorry.
[20:36:06] <Lady_Aleena>	Duesentrieb or Nikerabbit, can you help BlackSmith?
[20:36:36] <BlackSmith>	755 categorys :-/
[20:36:42] <BlackSmith>	at this moment
[20:37:15] <Lady_Aleena>	Simetrical or SQLDb?
[20:37:31] <Nikerabbit>	Lady_Aleena: meow
[20:38:19] <Lady_Aleena>	Nikerabbit, please help BlackSmith if you can.
[20:38:35] <Nikerabbit>	Lady_Aleena: why I?
[20:38:46] <Simetrical>	BlackSmith, you could try writing a mini-extension.
[20:38:57] <Lady_Aleena>	Nikerabbit, because you seem to know more abount the nuts and bolts than I ever will.
[20:39:20] <Simetrical>	It would most likely be simplest to just maintain it manually, though, say with a template you add to every category page.
[20:39:37] <Simetrical>	You could possibly put the link in some interface element, I guess, but not sure if that would work.
[20:39:45] <Nikerabbit>	Lady_Aleena: aside from editing some of the messages, I see no automated way to do that
[20:39:51] <alnokta>	you can add it using template.py
[20:41:20] <Lady_Aleena>	BlackSmith, I hope you get the help you need.
[20:42:07] <BlackSmith>	uh oh, what is template.py?
[20:42:25] <BlackSmith>	some kind of python script but what else?
[20:42:29] <Simetrical>	BlackSmith, I think he's suggesting pywikipediabot.
[20:42:31] <Simetrical>	!pywikipediabot
[20:42:31] --mwbot--	I don't know anything about "pywikipediabot".
[20:42:36] *Simetrical 	grrs
[20:43:16] <Betacommand>	Simetrical: [[m:Pywikipedia]]
[20:43:20] *Lady_Aleena 	giggles at mwbot and Simetrical's grrs.
[20:47:01] <Lady_Aleena>	Ugh! The first sentence in Initial setup make me cringe for some reason.
[20:47:54] <Soxred93>	What is it again?
[20:48:32] <Lady_Aleena>	What is what?
[20:53:47] <Shown>	do I have to create a Blocked group to ban a user?
[20:54:06] <Shown>	give them possibility to only read pages
[20:54:19] <Duesentrieb>	Shown: huh? no. the sysop group has that right
[20:55:07] <Shown>	http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:User_rights#List_of_Groups it doesn't seem
[20:55:17] <OverlordQ>	http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Preventing_access
[20:55:50] <Duesentrieb>	OverlordQ: that's unrelated to banning. no?
[20:55:59] <Duesentrieb>	Shown: that page sais: "sysop 	users who by default can delete and restore pages, block and unblock users, et cetera."
[20:56:15] <Duesentrieb>	(how the hell did that become italic?)
[20:56:35] <Lady_Aleena>	Duesentrieb, I didn't see italic. :)
[20:56:42] <OverlordQ>	Duesentrieb: Oh, I thought he wanted to create a 'banned' group to keep everybody from editing . . 
[20:56:49] <Shown>	Restrict editing by a particular user
[20:56:49] <Shown>	Use the user blocking functionality to deprive a user of all edit access. There is no way in the core software to restrict or allow particular users to edit particular pages, except by changing their usergroup.
[20:56:58] <Shown>	where is "user blocking functionality"? :S
[20:57:56] <Duesentrieb>	Shown: if you are a sysop, go to a user page. you'll find a "block" item in the toolbox in the sidebar
[20:58:16] <alnokta>	*killall
[20:58:19] <Duesentrieb>	Shown: as a sysop, you also get "block" links on the rescentchanges list, in your watchlist, in contributions listings, etc
[20:58:31] <alnokta>	(deletes everything a user made)
[20:58:37] <Shown>	i'm using 1.11.1 and i'm the one who installed alll
[20:59:04] <Duesentrieb>	Shown: so you should see those links.
[20:59:39] <Shown>	nope
[20:59:47] <Duesentrieb>	Shown: for example: go to Special:Recentchanges, look at some edit. see the user name, and the links just after the user name
[20:59:52] <Duesentrieb>	what do they say?
[21:00:20] <Duesentrieb>	i have there: (Talk | contribs | block)
[21:01:07] <Shown>	me either
[21:01:19] <Shown>	the block thing only appears in the tabs at the top of the page
[21:01:28] <Shown>	not in the left sided tool box
[21:01:55] <Duesentrieb>	hm... that might have changed at some point. doesn't matter, as long as it's there on user pages :)
[21:02:05] <Duesentrieb>	and it's more usefull in contrib listings/histories anyway
[21:02:42] <Duesentrieb>	generally, you want to block a user when seeing what he does, nto when looking at his user page :)
[21:02:57] <Duesentrieb>	even diff pages have "block" links after the user names
[21:03:29] <Shown>	prevent him from doing edits
[21:03:42] <Duesentrieb>	err. yes. that'S what "block" means
[21:03:52] <Shown>	of course...
[21:05:50] <Shown>	uh Duesentrieb
[21:06:08] <Shown>	if i use "block" beside one's edit
[21:06:09] <Duesentrieb>	uh yes?
[21:06:13] <Shown>	i block him
[21:06:14] <Shown>	?
[21:06:19] <Duesentrieb>	yes...?
[21:06:42] <Duesentrieb>	click it, you'll see
[21:06:44] <Shown>	and unblocking? (just for completeness)
[21:08:11] <Duesentrieb>	damn, i only see the german name of the special page to do that :)
[21:08:20] *Duesentrieb 	shakes fist at localized addresses for special pages
[21:08:55] <Duesentrieb>	Shown: Special:IPBlockList
[21:09:06] <Duesentrieb>	you can find it on Special:Specialpages if you lose it :)
[21:10:59] <Duesentrieb>	Shown: also, you can just go to the form used for blocking again. there's a (smallish) "unblock" link there too.
[21:11:37] <Duesentrieb>	hmmm...maybe not in 1.11. not sure
[21:11:42] <Shown>	Duesentrieb thanks for all ;)
[21:11:44] <Duesentrieb>	blocking stuff got changed quite a bit
[21:11:46] <Duesentrieb>	np
[21:11:49] <Shown>	yes all works as expected
[21:18:32] <Nikerabbit>	Duesentrieb: :OO
[21:18:52] <Duesentrieb>	....?
[21:19:23] <Nikerabbit>	no study? :o
[21:20:12] <Duesentrieb>	went through some more notes. brain won't do more. decided to give up and finish the day with some coding :)
[21:22:12] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Question about hotlinking statistics - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14948 trivial; normal; MediaWiki: Images; (johnnymrninja)
[21:31:25] <CIA-55>	03brion * r38110 10/trunk/phase3/ (RELEASE-NOTES includes/api/ApiQuerySearch.php): 
[21:31:25] <CIA-55>	* API search now falls back to fulltext search by default when using Lucene
[21:31:25] <CIA-55>	 or other engine which doesn't support a separate title search function.
[21:31:25] <CIA-55>	 This means you can use API search on Wikipedia without explicitly adding
[21:31:25] <CIA-55>	 &srwhat=text to the query.
[21:36:24] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Question about hotlinking statistics - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14948  (10adam.brookes)
[21:50:01] <odes3>	how do i add the information in a category onto another page?
[21:50:10] <CIA-55>	03tstarling * r38111 10/trunk/phase3/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Magic word __STATICREDIRECT__ to suppress the redirect fixer. For periodically-archived pages like [[WP:GO]].
[21:50:11] <odes3>	using templates?
[21:50:38] <odes3>	i tried {{Category:Articles that have been proposed for deletion but that may concern encyclopedic topics}} but nothing shows up
[21:50:48] <CIA-55>	03aaron * r38112 10/trunk/phase3/includes/filerepo/LocalFile.php: Set baserevid (bug 14918)
[21:50:54] <odes3>	hellooooo
[21:50:58] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED) Automatic sighting for new versions of images does not work - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14918  +comment (10JSchulz_4587)
[21:51:01] <odes3>	i hope someone is here
[21:51:19] <Lady_Aleena>	odes3, what are you trying to do?
[21:52:18] <MZMcBride>	odes3: Are you trying to list the category members?
[21:53:42] <odes3>	i want to make a template in a project page, which list all of the categories
[21:53:48] <Shiroi_Neko>	de.wikipedia keeps giving an error to pywikipedia bots redirect.py
[21:54:41] <Lady_Aleena>	odes3, try reading http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:CategoryTree
[21:54:43] <odes3>	here is an example: User:Inclusionist/sandbox
[21:54:52] <odes3>	kewl thank lady, you are a real lady
[21:55:01] <odes3>	un less you are a man, with a ladies handle
[21:55:19] <Lady_Aleena>	odes3, thank you for the compliment, I hope that helps.
[21:55:27] <Lady_Aleena>	And yes, I am female.
[21:55:33] <odes3>	in which case, it is a big mistake, sorry, I am not questioning your masculinity or anything, please dont beat me up
[21:55:45] <odes3>	oh then, thank you lady you are a really lady
[21:56:08] <brion>	:)
[21:56:13] <brion>	ah, the internet
[21:56:24] <guyvdb>	ah, my mentor
[21:56:42] <odes3>	hey, where were you two when i was asking questions?
[21:56:53] *brion 	waves
[21:56:55] <brion>	hiding
[21:56:56] <odes3>	help out a lady when she needs it
[21:57:03] <Lady_Aleena>	Hello brion, you got a minute?
[21:57:04] <odes3>	man, chivalery is dead
[21:57:04] <AaronSchulz>	brion: hey!
[21:57:09] <brion>	what's up
[21:57:10] <AaronSchulz>	usually not here on weekends
[21:57:30] <odes3>	they are just jumping out of the wood work, now all the heavy lifting is done--jeez
[21:57:42] <odes3>	thanks lady :)
[21:57:47] <Lady_Aleena>	brion, please see http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_talk:SiteMatrix I made a suggestion there to rewrite the page, but can't do it myself since I don't know where or how.
[21:58:03] <Lady_Aleena>	If I even can.
[21:58:37] <odes3>	kewl, wikipedia has http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:CategoryTree
[21:58:38] <brion>	Lady_Aleena: i think i'd agree, that'd probably be a more useful list than the current mix of public & private
[21:58:45] <brion>	at a minimum splitting there should be easy
[21:58:57] <odes3>	they should have this talk page on menu of wikipedia
[21:59:01] <odes3>	the one on the side
[21:59:07] <odes3>	then there would be much more help
[21:59:08] <Lady_Aleena>	brion, is there a way I can do it, or do I not have the right mojo for it?
[21:59:12] <odes3>	and more questions
[21:59:23] <odes3>	i love austin powers
[21:59:24] <odes3>	lol
[21:59:44] <brion>	Lady_Aleena: well you could take a poke at the code in http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/extensions/SiteMatrix/SiteMatrix_body.php?view=markup
[22:00:04] <brion>	disclaimer: i haven't really poked in there so don't know how scary the code is :D
[22:00:09] <Shiroi_Neko>	brion was anything special done to de.wikipedia?
[22:00:18] <Shiroi_Neko>	for double redirects?
[22:00:26] <brion>	Shiroi_Neko: nothing special that i know of
[22:00:31] <brion>	why do you ask?
[22:00:34] <Shiroi_Neko>	I get a constant error
[22:00:38] <Lady_Aleena>	brion, I don't understand any of that.
[22:00:43] <Shiroi_Neko>	when I run pywikipediabot
[22:00:51] <Shiroi_Neko>	redirect.py
[22:01:02] <Shiroi_Neko>	works everywhere else
[22:01:11] <brion>	Lady_Aleena: :) well for now, stick a note in https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org
[22:01:20] <brion>	bugzilla interface is still horrible, i apologize in advance
[22:01:48] <wikibugs>	06(LATER) Preset Special:CategoryTree input with main category. - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14880  +comment (10daniel)
[22:01:54] <brion>	anybody feel like tweaking SiteMatrix in the meantime to separate the public & private misc wikis?
[22:01:57] <Lady_Aleena>	brion, I have never reported a bug before, and this really isn't a bug, more like a mild irritant.
[22:01:57] <brion>	probably not insanely hard
[22:02:07] <brion>	well, feature requests go there too
[22:02:16] <Shiroi_Neko>	brion tim was working on something since wikimania
[22:02:26] <MZMcBride>	de.wiki = FlaggedRevs?
[22:02:38] <Shiroi_Neko>	he saw my screen and was seemingly terrified at my task :)
[22:02:41] <brion>	Shiroi_Neko: report the bug and bring it to tim's attention
[22:02:45] <Shiroi_Neko>	MZMcBride it may be related
[22:02:54] <Shiroi_Neko>	brion I need a confirmation
[22:03:00] <Shiroi_Neko>	did tim disable it?
[22:03:06] <Shiroi_Neko>	can you check?
[22:03:18] <Shiroi_Neko>	he was working on a built in function
[22:03:24] <Shiroi_Neko>	he may have only enabled it on de.wikipedia
[22:03:36] <Shiroi_Neko>	it may also be related to flagged revs maybe
[22:03:44] <Shiroi_Neko>	which would make sense
[22:03:54] <Shiroi_Neko>	after all moved mages should be independent edits
[22:04:05] <Shiroi_Neko>	from the double redicects that is
[22:04:26] <Lady_Aleena>	brion, bugzilla link? I can't remember it off the top of my head.
[22:04:47] <brion>	scroll up, Lady_Aleena  :)
[22:05:12] <Lady_Aleena>	brion, oops. :)
[22:05:37] <TimStarling>	what error?
[22:05:44] <Shiroi_Neko>	TimStarling
[22:06:02] <Lady_Aleena>	TimStarling, who are you talking to please? :)
[22:06:03] <Shiroi_Neko>	can you run pywikipediabot?
[22:06:22] <TimStarling>	pywikipediabot is reporting an error?
[22:06:24] <Shiroi_Neko>	TimStarling only talks to me :P
[22:06:28] <Shiroi_Neko>	TimStarling yes
[22:06:42] <TimStarling>	that sounds like pywikipediabot's problem
[22:07:04] <Shiroi_Neko>	I am not so sure
[22:07:15] <Shiroi_Neko>	redirect.py double -always -family:wikipedia -lang:de
[22:07:20] <Shiroi_Neko>	that gives an error
[22:07:23] <Shiroi_Neko>	redirect.py double -always -family:wikipedia -lang:en
[22:07:28] <Shiroi_Neko>	that doesnt give an error
[22:07:37] <Shiroi_Neko>	it didnt happen before the wikimania
[22:07:54] *Lady_Aleena 	reads bug writing guidelines.
[22:07:54] <Shiroi_Neko>	hmm
[22:08:00] <Shiroi_Neko>	one sec
[22:08:06] <Shiroi_Neko>	something is odd
[22:08:47] <Shiroi_Neko>	it decided to work
[22:08:48] <Shiroi_Neko>	:/
[22:09:03] <Shiroi_Neko>	TimStarling has your built in function started to work?
[22:09:10] <TimStarling>	yes
[22:09:25] <TimStarling>	pywikipediabot is a screen scraper, it's going to get broken sometimes
[22:09:35] <TimStarling>	it's not my job to fix it
[22:09:39] <Lady_Aleena>	Do interwiki links work between bugzilla and media wiki?
[22:09:46] <Shiroi_Neko>	you havent disabled special:doubleredirects right?
[22:09:51] <Shiroi_Neko>	TimStarling I know that
[22:10:00] <TimStarling>	no I haven't
[22:10:07] <Shiroi_Neko>	okay
[22:10:24] <Shiroi_Neko>	TimStarling I am merely making sanity checks so as not to waste your time
[22:10:30] <Shiroi_Neko>	I am getting this error for a week now
[22:10:45] <TimStarling>	presumably you'll continue to get it until it's fixed
[22:11:05] <Shiroi_Neko>	the fun thing is it started working as I was speaking to you
[22:11:11] <brion>	Shiroi_Neko: sometimes it helps to do things like provide the error message
[22:11:24] <Shiroi_Neko>	brion it was a useless technical error
[22:11:31] <Shiroi_Neko>	like servers may have problems
[22:11:42] <Shiroi_Neko>	a one line error for pywikipedia bot is rare
[22:11:48] <Simetrical>	There's often fine print in those errors.
[22:11:50] <TimStarling>	Lady_Aleena: local interwikis probably work
[22:11:52] <Shiroi_Neko>	and it was a handled error
[22:12:08] <Shiroi_Neko>	pywikipedia in general does not handle those
[22:12:11] <CIA-55>	03aaron * r38113 10/trunk/extensions/FlaggedRevs/ (FlaggedArticle.php specialpages/ReaderFeedback_body.php): Add extra form check
[22:12:15] <TimStarling>	because whatever wiki bugzilla uses for [[..]] will redirect to the interwiki target
[22:12:16] <Lady_Aleena>	TimStarling, so [[mw:Extension talk:SiteMatrix]] will work then, good. :)
[22:12:43] <TimStarling>	you know, you could just use a URL
[22:12:56] <Lady_Aleena>	Is a two sentence bug report bad?
[22:13:06] <TimStarling>	no
[22:13:18] <Shiroi_Neko>	TimStarling by the way
[22:13:27] <Shiroi_Neko>	does the built in bot able to edit protected pages?
[22:13:29] <Lady_Aleena>	How to I preview the report?
[22:13:37] <TimStarling>	Shiroi_Neko: yes
[22:13:39] <Shiroi_Neko>	a good number of double redirects are uneditable
[22:13:42] <Shiroi_Neko>	TimStarling awesome
[22:13:56] *Shiroi_Neko 	is awed
[22:14:00] <TimStarling>	it edits without checking for any authentication
[22:15:19] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Make SiteMatrix look better - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14949 15enhancement; normal; MediaWiki extensions: SiteMatrix; (fantasy)
[22:17:11] <Lady_Aleena>	^ my bug. :)
[22:18:26] <Danny_B>	is there any chance to make semantically good headline without having it added to TOC?
[22:18:43] <Shiroi_Neko>	TimStarling can I edit like that too? :)
[22:18:48] <Shiroi_Neko>	pretty please? :)
[22:19:03] <Shiroi_Neko>	I promise I wont delete the main page much... :P
[22:19:26] <MZMcBride>	There is an editprotected right that bots could have.
[22:19:35] <Lady_Aleena_alt>	Danny_B, you mean have a heading not appear in the TOC?
[22:19:39] <Shiroi_Neko>	MZMcBride I know
[22:19:41] <Shiroi_Neko>	I requested it
[22:19:49] <Shiroi_Neko>	but it isnt turned on on most places
[22:19:54] <Danny_B>	Lady_Aleena_alt: exactly
[22:19:55] <Shiroi_Neko>	TimStarling btw can I follow the bots edits?
[22:19:58] <Shiroi_Neko>	Does it have a name?
[22:20:11] <TimStarling>	[[User:Redirect fixer]]
[22:20:12] <MZMcBride>	The default name is User:Redirect_fixer
[22:20:24] <Shiroi_Neko>	TimStarling its name doesnt contain bot
[22:20:32] <Shiroi_Neko>	it will be blocked on a number of wikis
[22:20:37] <TimStarling>	it's not a bot
[22:20:41] <TimStarling>	and it can't be blocked
[22:20:47] <Lady_Aleena>	Danny_B, is it a 2nd level heading?
[22:20:48] <Shiroi_Neko>	I know
[22:20:49] <MZMcBride>	Haha.
[22:21:01] <Danny_B>	Lady_Aleena: any level
[22:21:15] <Shiroi_Neko>	I just know how insane it.wikipedia, sv.wikipedia and pt.wikipedia can get over this
[22:21:19] <Lady_Aleena>	Danny_B, the article title is always heading level 1.
[22:21:27] <Lady_Aleena>	Danny_B, hold please.
[22:22:03] <Danny_B>	well i guess there's no way otherwise tim already said that ;-)
[22:22:56] <Lady_Aleena>	Danny_B, the only way I know how to supress headings in the TOC is to use {{toclimit}} which would limit all the headings at a certain level.
[22:23:17] <Danny_B>	anyway, could we have some kind of construction like <hn class="notoc">this headet won't be added to toc</hn>
[22:23:39] <Lady_Aleena>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Toclimit
[22:24:34] <Lady_Aleena>	Danny_B, or to make it look more like wikicode /== <heading title> ==
[22:24:56] <Lady_Aleena>	Produces heading, but not to the toc. Just a thought.
[22:25:10] <Danny_B>	could be
[22:25:25] <AaronSchulz>	 $oldUser = $wgUser;
[22:25:31] <AaronSchulz>	$wgUser = $oldUser;
[22:25:35] <AaronSchulz>	hehe, nice :)
[22:25:38] <Danny_B>	however that template is not what i want. it a) uses css b) hides all headings of such level
[22:25:41] <Shiroi_Neko>	TimStarling: http://www.toolserver.org/~vvv/sulutil.php?user=Redirect+fixer
[22:25:44] <Shiroi_Neko>	fun
[22:26:11] <Shiroi_Neko>	suprised at en.wikipedia?
[22:26:29] <AaronSchulz>	brion: and everytime I see the bit 'FinalDestination' in the code, I giggle
[22:26:59] <brion>	:D
[22:27:04] <Shiroi_Neko>	TimStarling you cost me ~5000 edits a week :P
[22:27:31] <Lady_Aleena>	Danny_B, what's wrong with CSS?
[22:27:42] *Lady_Aleena 	loves CSS.
[22:27:56] <MinuteElectron>	Lady_Aleena: Doesn't work on text browsers and screen readers very well.
[22:28:36] <brion>	http://archive.salon.com/tech/log/2000/02/22/decss/index.html
[22:29:24] <Lady_Aleena>	Danny_B, then I suppose you are out of luck. Sorry.
[22:30:17] <Lady_Aleena>	Danny_B, and that came out all wrong. *eeps*
[22:46:34] <TimStarling>	brion: I'm not really seeing how that helps one side more than the other
[22:46:50] <TimStarling>	presumably it'll make it harder for the pirates to find the real DeCSS
[22:49:03] <TimStarling>	if he really wanted to make a contribution to the cause, he'd move to a ship in international waters and host DeCSS from there
[22:50:00] <Duesentrieb>	wtf? what is he thinking? this is silly.
[22:50:07] <flyingparchment>	Duesentrieb: check the date
[22:50:22] <Duesentrieb>	oh :P
[22:50:50] <Duesentrieb>	i was just wondering... doesn't he have his hands full with identi.ca?
[22:51:17] <flyingparchment>	nowadays everyone uses and distributes the real decss and no one cares
[22:52:15] <Duesentrieb>	i sure can apt-get it, though i don't remember if i added the repo by hand :)
[22:52:37] <flyingparchment>	nice quote though: "there is little room for doubting that broad dissemination of DeCSS would seriously injure or destroy [the studios'] ability to distribute their copyrighted products on DVDs."
[22:53:37] <Duesentrieb>	bah, what bullshit. 
[22:53:56] <flyingparchment>	i think it's a real problem.  no one is releasing films on DVD anymore, right?  because of this?
[22:54:14] <TimStarling>	yep, and 8 years down the track, they've all gone out of business and Sylvestor Stallone has joined a travelling circus just to make ends meet
[22:54:41] <TimStarling>	and Arnold Schwarzenegger had to get a job in the civil service
[22:55:47] <Duesentrieb>	:P
[22:56:11] <Lady_Aleena>	What about Bruce Willis?
[22:56:54] <TimStarling>	I heard he's a store manager at a removalist company
[22:57:18] <TimStarling>	he started just lifting cupboards but he moved up from there
[22:58:39] <Lady_Aleena>	I need to look up DeCSS.
[23:03:45] <AaronSchulz>	http://76.227.128.81/MW/index.php/Alexis_Bledel
[23:03:53] <AaronSchulz>	brion: what a nice test page
[23:03:57] <AaronSchulz>	I use it for everything
[23:05:52] *Lady_Aleena 	has now read the article on DeCSS and is still a bit confused.
[23:07:12] <TimStarling>	how is it that [[&#x2126;]] is a valid link?
[23:08:25] <Lady_Aleena>	Valid where?
[23:08:49] <TimStarling>	in mediawiki
[23:08:54] <TimStarling>	you know, wiki software
[23:09:24] <Lady_Aleena>	Oh, I meant project specific. Oops.
[23:10:28] <Lady_Aleena>	On en is is a redirect to Ampersand.
[23:10:40] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Global preferences - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14950 15enhancement; normal; MediaWiki extensions: CentralAuth; (mike.lifeguard)
[23:11:11] <TimStarling>	there's a difference between valid and existing
[23:11:34] <Lady_Aleena>	Oh, I didn't know that.
[23:11:47] <TimStarling>			/**
[23:11:47] <TimStarling>			 * Convert things like &eacute; &#257; or &#x3017; into real text...
[23:11:47] <TimStarling>			 */
[23:11:47] <TimStarling>			$filteredText = Sanitizer::decodeCharReferences( $text );
[23:12:03] <TimStarling>	I just think this is a bit ugly
[23:12:21] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Global preferences - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14950  (10brovvnout+wikibugzilla)
[23:12:41] <Lady_Aleena>	I don't read programming languages. Sorry.
[23:12:49] <flyingparchment>	Lady_Aleena: DVDs are encrypted.  you can't play them without knowing the secret decryption key, that you can only get after signing an NDA
[23:13:03] <flyingparchment>	Lady_Aleena: decss lets you decrypt DVDs (and play them) without one of those keys
[23:13:16] <TimStarling>	brion: the problem is that Sanitizer::decodeCharReferences( $text ) can return text that's not NFC
[23:13:19] <Lady_Aleena>	flyingparchment, oh, okay....
[23:13:26] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Global preferences - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14950  (10lilewyn)
[23:15:24] <AaronSchulz>	'In addition, structural flaws in the algorithm reduced the effective key length to only around 16 bits, which could be brute-forced by a 450Mhz processor in less than a minute.'
[23:15:33] <TimStarling>	in WebRequest::getFileName we have this:
[23:15:37] <TimStarling>			$name = Sanitizer::decodeCharReferences( $name );
[23:15:38] <TimStarling>			$name = UtfNormal::cleanUp( $name );
[23:15:40] <AaronSchulz>	good to know my old 550 box is good for something
[23:15:51] <TimStarling>	but not in Title::newFromText()
[23:16:48] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Global preferences - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14950  (10lilewyn)
[23:19:48] <TimStarling>	mind you, it's been there for a while: http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/includes/Title.php?view=diff&r1=9283&r2=9284
[23:20:44] <brion>	TimStarling: one issue to consider is that at present we allow encoded non-UTF-8 chars in outgoing interwiki links
[23:20:58] <brion>	these were grandfathered in from the pre-unicodeification days :P
[23:21:07] <brion>	though probably someone could go through and fix them all :)
[23:21:26] <TimStarling>	you have a good memory
[23:21:41] <TimStarling>	that was like a million years ago
[23:21:46] <brion>	:D
[23:23:04] <TimStarling>	basically someone's complaining on the village pump that [[&#x2126;]] is a link to U+2126, but if you click on it, it's normalised by NFC to U+03A9
[23:23:33] <TimStarling>	so [[&#x2126;]] looks like a red link, but it goes to an existing page
[23:25:03] <brion>	well it'd be nice to normalize on decode, probably
[23:26:34] <TimStarling>	also, it makes the output non-NFC
[23:27:24] <TimStarling>	[[&#x2126;]] becomes <a href=... title="??? (not yet written)">&#x2126;</a>
[23:27:51] <TimStarling>	the link text is OK, the title is non-NFC
[23:29:52] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Global preferences - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14950  (10rjd0060.wiki)
[23:30:55] <brion>	right :(
[23:31:41] <brion>	my inclination is to go ahead and slip the normalization into the decode function, or at least into the title normalization
[23:31:59] <brion>	it might hvae performance issues on large text though
[23:32:04] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Make image views statistics available through wikistats - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14890  (10Wiki.Melancholie)
[23:32:28] <brion>	unfortunately you can't just normalize the character you're decoding -- you need the chars before it to deal with combining chars
[23:32:46] <brion>	otherwise it'd be easy to apply the normalization purely on each char in the existing funcs
[23:36:18] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Improve organization of "other projects" in SiteMatrix list - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14949  summary; +comment (10brion)
[23:36:36] <schnittchen>	ahem... i am transcluding a page containing <nowiki>{{something}}</nowiki>, and that part does not show up!
[23:37:20] <schnittchen>	version 1.10.1
[23:39:46] <brion>	schnittchen: is it just <nowiki> or also <noinclude>?
[23:40:24] <schnittchen>	the <nowiki>... is not surrounded by <noinclude>, but i think by <includeonly>
[23:40:48] <schnittchen>	the stuff right before the <nowiki> stuff shows up when transcluded
[23:43:30] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Global deleted image review for Commons admins - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14801  (10g1ggyman)
[23:44:24] <schnittchen>	i am using this to transclude a template's doc onto the template page, just as wp does. so either (1) behaviour has been changed with more recent versions or (2) i did something stupid or (3) i need to do some "escaping" to have two consecutive "{" not interpreted as transclusion...
[23:45:31] <schnittchen>	brion: i'm sorry i got this wrong
[23:45:46] <schnittchen>	here it is: <nowiki><noinclude>{{
[23:54:06] <Charitwo>	rar
[23:54:16] <schnittchen>	i think it is https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9584, but not sure