[00:00:49] <lch>	Danny_B, I think that's one of the things that the Dynamic Pagelist extension (DPL) does
[00:01:12] <Danny_B>	dpl creates images?
[00:01:24] <lch>	together with some other extensions, yes
[00:01:27] <lch>	they have examples
[00:02:18] <brion>	o_O
[00:02:25] <brion>	and that's why we don't install DPL2 :)
[00:02:29] <brion>	too big and scary :D
[00:02:51] <Mike_lifeguard>	:'(
[00:02:56] <Danny_B>	:-(
[00:02:59] <Mike_lifeguard>	too awesome and useful, you mean XD
[00:03:12] <cjb>	heh, cool:
[00:03:16] <cjb>	{{ #ifexpr: 
[00:03:17] <cjb>	  {{DATEDIFF2|15 December 2008|{{#time:l}}}} < 0 | 
[00:03:17] <cjb>	  {{#expr:abs( {{DATEDIFF2|15 December 2008|{{#time:l}}}} )}} days in future | 
[00:03:20] <cjb>	  {{DATEDIFF2|15 Decmber 2008|{{#time:l}}}} days in past
[00:03:23] <cjb>	}}
[00:03:50] <Danny_B>	there should be something between curent worthless dpl and dpl2
[00:04:05] <Mike_lifeguard>	well, DPL isn't worthless. it's a helluva lot better than not having anything
[00:04:44] <lch>	I've had a look at what's available and installed the WikiDB extension now, which seems to do exactly what I want
[00:04:44] <Danny_B>	well, yes
[00:04:45] <CIA-6>	03aaron * r41907 10/trunk/extensions/CodeReview/ (CodeReview.php CodeRevisionView.php codereview.css): 
[00:04:47] <CIA-6>	* Use scroll for wide diffs
[00:04:47] <CIA-6>	* Don't show comment header if nothing below it
[00:04:47] <CIA-6>	* Move stuff to css
[00:04:47] <AaronSchulz>	brion: there we go
[00:04:54] <Danny_B>	but it doesn't even do the basic function - sorting by adding to such category :-(
[00:05:00] <j4zzcat>	I try to run parserTest, but I get --> MySQL returned error "1146: Table 'wikidb.parsertest_objectcache' doesn't exist (localhost)"
[00:05:00] <MrZ-man>	TimStarling: could you take a look at the patch on https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15919 ?
[00:05:01] <lch>	DPL not caching and potentially even parsing on every hit sounds too much of a resource hog to me
[00:05:48] <Mike_lifeguard>	indeed, that's why we want it fixed
[00:06:01] <Mike_lifeguard>	we're lucky to have DPL(1) on small sites
[00:08:01] <Mike_lifeguard>	Anyone feel like reviewing a tiny patch for me? I wanna know how badly I fail :)
[00:08:18] <cjb>	is there a way to assign the result of a template expansion to a "variable" for me to test against multiple times without repeating it?
[00:08:53] <Splarka>	cjb: there is a variables extension but it isn't used on wmf, which usually means it has something wrong with it
[00:08:54] <cjb>	(the code in question is what I just pasted, http://pastebin.com/deeebfda )
[00:09:01] <cjb>	Splarka: ah, ok
[00:09:16] <cjb>	Splarka: do you think there's any other way to remove the repeated {{DATEDIFF2..}} from my code?
[00:09:22] <Splarka>	usually what is done is to call a subtemplate
[00:09:32] <cjb>	huh
[00:09:40] <cjb>	not sure I understand how that would work
[00:09:44] <Splarka>	well...
[00:09:55] <cjb>	oh, I guess I do.  it's just recursive templates.
[00:10:01] <Splarka>	you're already doing it
[00:10:04] <cjb>	right.
[00:10:13] <Splarka>	this means you end up with a maze of subtemplate calls
[00:10:49] <cjb>	yeah.  do you think what I have now is as good as I should make it, then?
[00:11:02] <TimStarling>	MrZ-man: it really needs to have a limited size
[00:11:28] <TimStarling>	otherwise we'll have the same problems that we had with the link cache and the link holder array
[00:11:42] <Splarka>	cjb: it is pretty simplistic yah
[00:11:52] <TimStarling>	say 1000
[00:11:57] <Splarka>	https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7865
[00:13:06] <cjb>	ok :)
[00:18:23] <TimStarling>	brion: CodeReview sure does like throwing exceptions
[00:18:29] <brion>	:)
[00:18:39] <brion>	i was pretty lazy about pretty errors for invalid input
[00:18:51] <brion>	i'm doing some funky fun for the diff timeouts
[00:19:02] *AaronSchulz 	waits for the next scap :)
[00:19:08] <TimStarling>	you don't have to internationalise exceptions, right?
[00:19:26] <Mike_lifeguard>	Can sysops still (un)block while blocked?
[00:19:52] <brion>	i generally wouldn't bother; internationalization belongs in user-friendly error messages :)
[00:20:09] <TimStarling>	I mean is that why you used them?
[00:20:14] <brion>	nope
[00:20:23] <Emufarmers>	Mike_lifeguard: yes
[00:20:34] <Mike_lifeguard>	k, thanks
[00:20:40] <brion>	just a quick way to do something sensible with invalid parameters or backend failures until a nicer display is worked out
[00:22:33] <Emufarmers>	brion: if I'm modifying User::canSendEmail() to check whether email is enabled globally, how should I work around the hook?
[00:22:40] <Speckmade1>	(thanks, Splarka!)
[00:22:59] <brion>	?
[00:23:02] <brion>	what hook's that, Emufarmers ?
[00:23:18] <Emufarmers>	UserCanSendEmail
[00:23:20] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) problems getting thumbnails with chopped ogg streams - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15920 15enhancement; normal; MediaWiki extensions: OggHandler; (dale)
[00:23:24] <AaronSchulz>	http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Potential_Wikia_mass_exodus
[00:23:26] <AaronSchulz>	hmm
[00:23:29] <brion>	well, if it's disabled globally, then nobody can ever send email
[00:23:34] <brion>	no matter what some hook would like to say
[00:24:26] <Emufarmers>	I haven't worked with hooks before; do I
[00:24:33] <Emufarmers>	er
[00:24:51] <AaronSchulz>	http://en.wikinews.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RatingHistory&target=Worldwide_markets_fall_precipitously
[00:24:55] *AaronSchulz 	<3 svg
[00:25:03] <Emufarmers>	http://pastebin.com/mf820d6b Is that good?
[00:25:16] <brion>	woot
[00:25:33] <brion>	(@AaronSchulz ... gonna look at your thing in a sec emu)
[00:25:58] <brion>	Emufarmers: i probably wouldn't bother running the hook if it's disabled
[00:26:06] <brion>	so check first, then run the hook
[00:26:15] <Emufarmers>	OK
[00:27:19] <CIA-6>	03tstarling * r41908 10/trunk/phase3/maintenance/parserTests.txt: Parser test for bug 15196
[00:29:09] <Emufarmers>	Which is clearer: if( !wgEnableEmail || !$wgEnableUserEmail ) or if( !(wgEnableEmail && $wgEnableUserEmail) ) ?
[00:31:47] <brion>	TimStarling++ :)
[00:35:19] <MrZ-man>	TimStarling: should the limit only apply to actual file objects? Currently it only adds true for the first instance, then adds the file object if its used twice
[00:35:40] <TimStarling>	whatever
[00:37:34] <TimStarling>	I'm going to work on code review for most of today I think
[00:37:43] <TimStarling>	it's about time we svn'd up
[00:38:08] <AaronSchulz>	\o/
[00:38:14] <CIA-6>	03aaron * r41909 10/trunk/extensions/FlaggedRevs/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Improve graph title
[00:40:34] <TimStarling>	it might be nice to have a filter for a given changed path
[00:40:48] <TimStarling>	then we could search for revisions related to the one at hand
[00:43:00] <CIA-6>	03dale * r41910 10/trunk/extensions/PlayerStatsGrabber/ (11 files in 3 dirs): added flowplayer support test, added reporting the requested url to the plyaback log, added consistent sample media across media types
[00:44:18] <j4zzcat>	if an extension returns nulls, it is rendered as "<br />"
[00:44:29] <j4zzcat>	can that be avoided ?
[00:48:03] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Suppress the "email this user" link in the toolbox if said user has opted not to/can't receive emails - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1306  (10N/A)
[00:52:04] <Splarka>	j4zzcat: what type? parser tag? parser function? some other hook?
[00:53:34] <j4zzcat>	I'm working on Cite.php
[00:54:46] <Splarka>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:ExpandTemplates?contexttitle=&input=a%3Ccategorytree%3E%3C%2Fcategorytree%3Eb%0D%0A%0D%0Aa%3Chiero%3E%3C%2Fhiero%3Eb%0D%0A%0D%0Aa%3Cpoem%3E%3C%2Fpoem%3Eb%0D%0A%0D%0Aa%3Cpre%3E%3C%2Fpre%3Eb%0D%0A%0D%0Aa%3Creferences%3E%3C%2Freferences%3Eb%0D%0A&removecomments=1&generate_xml=1
[00:55:18] <Splarka>	some parser tag extensions can return inline null
[00:55:40] <Splarka>	it isn't always <br/>, sometimes it is </p><p>, sometimes it is <div>
[00:56:42] <Melos>	why this http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/includes/DefaultSettings.php?view=markup is different from http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/includes/DefaultSettings.php?revision=41714&view=markup&pathrev=41714 ?
[00:56:47] <Splarka>	I'd say, check whatever categorytree and hiero do
[00:58:10] <Melos>	for example $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['suppressredirect'] = true; in the first one is missed
[01:02:53] <CIA-6>	03tstarling * r41911 10/trunk/phase3/includes/specials/SpecialMovepage.php: Fix error display on invalid destination title on GET, e.g. with URL /wiki/Special:MovePage/Main_Page?wpNewTitle=Main_Page . Broken by r35990 and again by r41343.
[01:06:22] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Greater flexibility with references - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5997  (10ref visible="no" name="aaa">This is a ref for AAA</ref>
[01:06:22] <wikibugs>	<ref name="ccc" group="c" visible="no">This is a ref for CCC</ref>
[01:06:22] <wikibugs>	<ref name="ddd" visible="no">This is a ref for DDD</ref>
[01:06:22] <wikibugs>	<references/>
[01:06:22] <wikibugs>	<references group="c"/>
[01:06:34] <wikibugs>	-- 
[01:06:36] <wikibugs>	Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
[01:06:38] <wikibugs>	------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
[01:06:38] <j4zzcat>	:)
[01:06:40] <wikibugs>	You are the assignee for the bug.
[01:06:42] <wikibugs>	You are watching all bug changes.
[01:06:44] <CIA-6>	03brion * r41912 10/trunk/extensions/CodeReview/ (5 files): 
[01:06:44] <CIA-6>	Mwahahaha... asynchronous load of uncached diffs for CodeReview!
[01:06:44] <CIA-6>	Pretty hacky, and probably not ideal. ;)
[01:06:46] <wikibugs>	_______________________________________________
[01:06:48] <wikibugs>	Wikibugs-l mailing list
[01:06:50] <wikibugs>	Wikibugs-l)
[01:06:52] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) define/document $wgUseEnotif in DefaultSettings.php - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15921 15enhancement; normal; MediaWiki: Documentation; (alan.harder)
[01:06:55] <AaronSchulz>	ugh
[01:07:28] <Mike_lifeguard>	what is wikibugs doing?
[01:07:38] <brion>	Mike_lifeguard: what do you mean?
[01:07:44] <brion>	ah
[01:07:45] <brion>	curious
[01:07:55] <brion>	guess it got confused :D
[01:08:01] <j4zzcat>	in bugzilla comment, how do I reference my attachment ? 
[01:08:14] <brion>	j4zzcat: probably 'attachment NNN' where NNN is the #
[01:08:18] <Mike_lifeguard>	does wikibugs read the mail sent out?
[01:08:21] <brion>	or.. just say 'my attachment' and we'll figure it out
[01:08:26] <j4zzcat>	ok
[01:08:26] <brion>	Mike_lifeguard: yeah, it's a little hacky
[01:08:44] <Mike_lifeguard>	if the mail changed format, it might parse incorrectly
[01:08:56] <CIA-6>	03erik * r41913 10/trunk/extensions/Collection/Collection.i18n.php: Kollektion->Sammlung
[01:09:09] <brion>	yeah, someday we'll prolly replace it with something that plugs to bugzilla more directly or uses some kind of sensible api
[01:10:55] <CIA-6>	03brion * r41914 10/trunk/extensions/CodeReview/ (CodeRevisionView.php codereview.js): snip some commented-out debug code no longer needed
[01:10:57] <brion>	hmmm
[01:12:31] <CIA-6>	03aaron * r41915 10/trunk/extensions/CodeReview/CodeRepository.php: Rename $skipCache
[01:12:39] <AaronSchulz>	Unknown column 'cr_path' in 'field list' (10.0.6.21)
[01:13:17] <NicDumZ>	yep, the field needs to be added ^
[01:13:28] <brion>	d'oh
[01:14:29] <brion>	adding
[01:14:58] <NicDumZ>	good, working.
[01:14:59] <brion>	AaronSchulz: i'm noticing that i'm not always seeing my changed (like new tags) right after saving... probably a little slave lag
[01:15:25] <CIA-6>	03skizzerz * r41916 10/trunk/phase3/ (3 files in 2 dirs): * integrating UniversalEditButton extension into core (enabled by default, set $wgUniversalEditButton = false; in LocalSettings to disable)
[01:16:01] <NicDumZ>	.http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Code/MediaWiki/author/nicdumz mmmm looks like the bottom part is buggy. all green ?!
[01:16:13] <brion>	iirc we've got some handy way to stash a master position in the session which the next load should wait for...
[01:17:26] <Skizzerz>	brion: any chance that CodeReview will support repo browsers other than ViewVC?
[01:17:46] <CIA-6>	03tstarling * r41917 10/trunk/extensions/Renameuser/SpecialRenameuser_body.php: 
[01:17:46] <CIA-6>	Fix for r41347 and some previous error: Use Title::makeTitleSafe() for
[01:17:46] <CIA-6>	constructing title objects where the namespace is known, not
[01:17:46] <CIA-6>	Title::newFromText(). Title::newFromText() with a default namespace allows the
[01:17:46] <CIA-6>	input to override that namespace, e.g. renaming a user to a template.
[01:18:09] <CIA-6>	03brion * r41918 10/trunk/extensions/Collection/Collection.php: 
[01:18:09] <CIA-6>	Revert r41883 "only set config vars, if they have not already been set"
[01:18:09] <CIA-6>	We do it this way to protect against attacks when register_globals is on on the server -- that would allow an attacker to override all your defaults with their own values, potentially dangerous.
[01:19:08] <NicDumZ>	AaronSchulz, http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Code/MediaWiki/41633 : the conf var name can be changed ; what name would you imagine ?
[01:19:33] <TimStarling>	where's status=don't care
[01:19:43] <Skizzerz>	TimStarling: status=[[UN:N]] ;)
[01:20:01] <TimStarling>	how am I meant to tag extensions that aren't reviewed?
[01:20:34] <brion>	heh
[01:20:46] <brion>	well what i'm doing for now is tagging things we don't use as ok, as long as they're not blowing stuff up
[01:20:51] <brion>	we could make a separate status for that perhaps
[01:20:56] <TimStarling>	"later"?
[01:21:01] <Skizzerz>	"meh"
[01:21:25] <brion>	notcore?
[01:21:41] <NicDumZ>	"d'oh"
[01:21:57] <NicDumZ>	duncare
[01:22:08] <TimStarling>	well, extensions that we use aren't technically core...
[01:22:27] <Skizzerz>	they CAN be with a bit of effort :D
[01:22:34] <brion>	:)
[01:24:03] <Skizzerz>	also, you lied. You said UniversalEditButton would be a one-liner. It was three (not counting line breaks in the if statement, the array, or the ending curly braces) :o
[01:24:21] <brion>	you know, a newline isn't required there ;)
[01:24:41] <Skizzerz>	I suppose :P
[01:24:48] <brion>	d'oh looks like we lost aaronschulz
[01:24:50] <TimStarling>	anyway, add a status for it of some kind, or else I'll do it
[01:25:06] <brion>	go ahead, should be pretty straightforward
[01:25:09] *Skizzerz 	should add Trac support to CodeReview :)
[01:25:18] <brion>	add it to the enum and the little listy thing of valid values
[01:25:29] *brion 	stomach rumbling, it's getting to dinnertime :)
[01:26:07] <brion>	i'll catch up w/ you folks later...
[01:26:07] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Implement the Interlanguage extension in Wikipedia - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15607  (10puzzlet)
[01:26:28] <NicDumZ>	brion, currently everyone can link users on mw.org . you probably want to change this :p
[01:27:08] <NicDumZ>	( codereview-link-user )
[01:27:18] <brion>	bah
[01:27:34] <TimStarling>	how about "not reviewed"?
[01:27:47] <TimStarling>	maybe ambiguous?
[01:28:06] *brion 	tweaks CommonSettings...
[01:28:13] <brion>	TimStarling: 'deferred'?
[01:28:37] <TimStarling>	ok
[01:28:56] <brion>	another alternative might be having some sort of magic tagging for 'revisions in stuff we care about' -- trunk phase3, extensions we use live, and leave the other dirs to be reviewed whenever
[01:29:10] <brion>	(through a filtererd view)
[01:29:16] <brion>	but this'll be quicker for now ;)
[01:29:21] <brion>	ok i'm really leaving this time ;)
[01:30:24] <Von>	Twofold question: Where does one edit/modify the indicia after usernames on RC (talk, contribs, block), and should or should not there be a system message for that?
[01:31:35] <Splarka>	you can change the words, but not easily the links/meaning
[01:31:52] <CIA-6>	03nicdumz * r41919 10/trunk/extensions/CodeReview/CodeReview.i18n.php: Adding "right-codereview-link-user"
[01:31:53] <Splarka>	see Special:Allmessages (in the soup)
[01:31:54] <Von>	Nor hide, if desired?
[01:32:13] <Splarka>	you could probably null the appropriate message, but be aware they may be used otherwhere than just on RC
[01:32:18] <Von>	Yep, I've been looking at allmsgs
[01:32:36] <Splarka>	what do you want to hide?
[01:32:39] <CIA-6>	03tstarling * r41920 10/trunk/extensions/CodeReview/ (CodeReview.i18n.php CodeRevision.php codereview.sql): Added 'deferred' status.
[01:32:54] <Von>	Didn't want to change talk or contribs or block links across the wiki, just on rc
[01:33:18] <Von>	Like, say, to avoid accidentally clicking on a block link
[01:33:38] <Splarka>	well, try it
[01:33:42] <Splarka>	it brings up a block form
[01:33:49] <Von>	Splarka: For logged in sysops, that whole array (talk - contribs - block)
[01:34:00] <Splarka>	is not a single-click action
[01:34:15] <Splarka>	anyway, you might be able to use a hook to modify the rendered output and strip the block link, in an extension
[01:34:20] <Von>	Yeah, but I just figured why even go one click if you don't have to, y'know?
[01:35:16] *Skizzerz 	uses the block link on rc quite often... click it then check the diff in a different tab so that I don't have to find the block link on the diff page if it's a bannable something
[01:35:49] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) initial cursor placement/focus - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15922 15enhancement; normal; Wikimedia: General/Unknown; (csarsenault)
[01:35:52] <Splarka>	http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Hooks/OldChangesListRecentChangesLine
[01:36:20] *Skizzerz 	doesn't know why that isn't a mw message
[01:36:35] <Skizzerz>	although it would be pretty confusing :P
[01:36:46] <Splarka>	how would it handle sysop/non? one msg for each?
[01:36:58] <Skizzerz>	hmm... no idea
[01:37:01] <Splarka>	MediaWiki:RecentChangesUserLink and MediaWiki:RecentChangesUserLinkBlockAccess ?
[01:37:15] <Skizzerz>	it would also have to handle normal/enhanced rc too
[01:37:20] <Splarka>	ew
[01:37:22] <Skizzerz>	which means 4 messages
[01:37:30] <Skizzerz>	so yeah.. that's probably why
[01:37:36] <NicDumZ>	so that's why
[01:37:40] <Splarka>	so that's why
[01:38:28] <Von>	And that's undesired? With all of the other system msgs for little things?
[01:54:19] <CIA-6>	03tstarling * r41921 10/trunk/phase3/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Fix stomach-churning case of edititis in r41350: made optional.
[01:56:26] <Skizzerz>	anyone with +Coder on mediawiki.org want to link my svn account with my wiki account?
[01:57:26] <TimStarling>	same name?
[01:58:53] <Skizzerz>	yeah
[01:59:02] <Skizzerz>	http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Code/MediaWiki/author/skizzerz/link
[01:59:35] *Skizzerz 	could theoretically just give himself the group and do it himself, but that wouldn't be a very smart course of action :)
[01:59:56] <DarkoNeko>	The action you have requested is limited to users in the group: Coders.
[01:59:56] <DarkoNeko>	meh
[02:00:30] <NicDumZ>	DarkoNeko, back off :p
[02:00:46] *DarkoNeko 	hisses
[02:06:34] <MrZ-man>	TimStarling: better? http://pastebin.com/d68021d65
[02:07:19] <TimStarling>	Skizzerz: done
[02:07:24] <Skizzerz>	thanks
[02:09:03] <TimStarling>	# Don't cache the first instance so we don't cache every file on the page
[02:09:05] <TimStarling>	why?
[02:09:42] <TimStarling>	is this a special-case optimisation for a particular test case?
[02:10:12] <Werdna>	hello
[02:10:42] <TimStarling>	hi Werdna
[02:11:05] <AaronSchulz>	Werdna: hey
[02:11:13] *Werdna 	grumbles about people whining about "Main Page" being in the wrong namespace, again.
[02:11:18] <Werdna>	We must have had 50 discussions on it.
[02:11:27] <MrZ-man>	well the cache doesn't really help if the image isn't used more than once, it would just be a bunch of file objects filling up memory
[02:11:27] <TimStarling>	well, it only takes one
[02:11:39] <Werdna>	it is only one guy.
[02:11:41] <TimStarling>	they don't need a majority do they?
[02:11:56] <Werdna>	and every time it gets rejected, he comes back and phrases it slightly differently.
[02:12:56] <DarkoNeko>	lol
[02:12:59] <AaronSchulz>	heh
[02:13:01] <DarkoNeko>	just ban the guy or something
[02:13:15] <MrZ-man>	related to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT#Chess_pages_will_not_load
[02:14:02] <TimStarling>	MrZ-man: what if every image is used twice?
[02:14:54] <TimStarling>	then you've missed the opportunity to reduce the number of file fetches by half
[02:15:44] <Werdna>	teehee, reasons given:
[02:16:31] <Werdna>	1/ The wrong nstab. 2/ Copying would have one extra article. 3/ The 'Cite this page' link would disappear. 4/ The {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}} would be more correct (yes, 1 page out of 2.5 million)
[02:19:29] <Splarka>	5/ it would shut him up
[02:19:35] <Splarka>	which could almost be worth it
[02:19:45] <Werdna>	I don't believe that we should reward people who waste our time like that.
[02:19:49] <Splarka>	except he'd then go to other projects, reinforced with that victory
[02:20:08] <Splarka>	you don't think stopping people wasting time is worth wasting time over? heh
[02:20:09] <Werdna>	exactly :P
[02:20:26] *Splarka 	watches the weather channel
[02:21:00] <MrZ-man>	TimStarling: it was Brion's idea :) I guess with the limit on cache size its probably unnecessary
[02:21:49] <TimStarling>	probably
[02:21:55] <TimStarling>	have you tried measuring the memory usage?
[02:22:25] <MrZ-man>	I have profiling on
[02:22:56] <TimStarling>	how much space does it take per file?
[02:24:01] <Werdna>	hmm, what's the 'deferred' status?
[02:24:16] <AaronSchulz>	= 'I don't care'
[02:25:42] <^demon>	For those who are unaware, what is the reason for tying a commit name to a username?
[02:25:42] <madness90>	I just tryed to log into onto my wiki and it says I have an incorrect password? I told it to email my password and I tried to log in with that password and I still couldn't log in. Itsaid I had the wrong password. But I copied what I had in the e-mail?
[02:37:25] *Von 	has a cold and it's kicking Von's ass
[02:38:14] <MrZ-man>	about 300kB per file to cache it
[02:39:26] <MrZ-man>	no, that's not right
[02:39:37] <Von>	madness90: Are you admin?
[02:40:03] <Von>	If so, does it match your LocalSettings.php pswd?
[02:40:45] <MrZ-man>	for 5 images, none repeated, it uses 1239131 bytes
[02:42:08] <Von>	How to hide h1.firstHeading on select pages in a namespace without hiding it on all? Extension:NoTitle doesn't cut it.
[02:43:03] <Werdna>	AaronSchulz: I like your page of funny stuff.
[02:43:42] <Werdna>	[07:20] <TimStarling> I think brion has perfected the art of using jokes as a replacement for documentation:
[02:44:27] <Splarka>	Von: pages have page-specific classes in the <body>
[02:44:32] <MrZ-man>	21 images uses 1373458
[02:45:02] <Splarka>	body.page-Main_Page h1.firstHeading, body.page-Special_RecentChanges h1.firstHeading, body.page-User_Your_Name h1.firstHeading {display:none;}
[02:49:03] <Von>	Splarka: But if I display:none per namespace, that hides it on all, no? Or am I misunderstanding?
[02:49:38] <Von>	*all pgs in that ns
[02:51:23] <Splarka>	you aren't doing all pages in a namespace with that example
[02:51:41] <Splarka>	okay, tell you what, give me a list of all pages you want the h1 hidden on in the form of:
[02:51:52] <Splarka>	[[User:Foo]] [[Main Page]] [[Special:RecentChanges]] etc
[02:54:36] <Von>	ns-0
[02:55:09] <Von>	Does that work?
[02:55:11] <Splarka>	ignore namespace, it doesn't matter for your question
[02:55:14] <Von>	oh
[02:55:30] <Splarka>	<Von> How to hide h1.firstHeading on select pages?
[02:55:36] <Splarka>	is your question basically
[02:55:38] <Splarka>	list the pages
[02:55:52] <Splarka>	or, an example, of say 5 or 10
[02:57:14] <Von>	Well it's a range of pages in the (Main) ns, they have different titles... no user pgs, specials or anything else
[02:57:52] <Von>	So, "Foo" I guess?
[03:00:24] <Von>	Sorry if I'm not understanding.
[03:00:55] <Splarka>	well, you have to list each one individually in the form of:
[03:01:03] <Splarka>	body.page-Main_Page,
[03:01:07] <Splarka>	body.page-Another_Page,
[03:01:13] <Splarka>	and then for the last:
[03:01:20] <Splarka>	body.page-Last_Page {display:none;}
[03:01:29] <Splarka>	well, with h1.firstHeading for each of course, heh
[03:01:52] <Splarka>	body.page-Main_Page h1.firstHeading, body.page-Another_Page h1.firstHeading, ... body.page-Last_Page h1.firstHeading {display:none;}
[03:02:12] <Splarka>	the class is page-Pagename where Pagename is the escapeclass'd css safe name
[03:02:20] <Splarka>	you can find it by viewing page source, is in the <body class="">
[03:02:31] <Von>	oh, I think I see... so you can just use the page title?
[03:02:46] <Splarka>	sort of, you have to use what MediaWiki determines is the CSS class safe page title ^_^
[03:02:56] <Von>	hmm, k
[03:03:18] *Von 	goes to see what happens
[03:05:39] <Von>	Could that be rendered per page as body.page-{{{foo}}} h1.firstHeading {display:none;}, as in a template on that page?
[03:06:37] <Splarka>	no
[03:06:41] <Splarka>	this has to go into site CSS
[03:07:04] <Splarka>	[[MediaWiki:Monobook.css]] (assuming you have that as your default skin)
[03:07:15] <Splarka>	can't be templatized
[03:07:21] <Splarka>	for that you'd need an extension
[03:07:32] <Von>	Yes, mono. dang, that's a lot of pages to do then
[03:10:06] <Splarka>	if they all have the same prefix you could use advanced CSS selectors (won't work in IE): body[class^="page-Main_Page"]
[03:10:16] <Splarka>	would get [[Main Page]] [[Main Page/foo]] etc
[03:10:32] <TimStarling>	anyone want to review my changes? I'm not going to mark my own changes as "ok"
[03:10:49] <Splarka>	oop, damn, muliple spaces, have to be something like body[class*=" page-Main_Page"]
[03:11:45] <Von>	How about a class that calls on that CSS line? Thinking out loud, here....
[03:12:35] <Von>	Like, I saw id=titlehack on Uncyclopedia
[03:14:01] <Von>	Is DarkoNeko French?
[03:14:19] <regex>	how do I output some template code only if the user specified the template field?
[03:15:33] <Von>	btw, Splarka, yes, that does work... ty
[03:15:34] <Splarka>	von: well, if you want to get into javascript... meh
[03:16:03] <Von>	yeah, I can't get into .js
[03:16:12] <Splarka>	regex: with ParserFunctions extension?
[03:16:43] <Splarka>	Von: Uncyc used to use pure CSS, I wrote 90% of it myself, but then they ditched that for a JS solution, was inelegant
[03:16:58] <Von>	Now if only there was a cure for the common cold... *sniff*
[03:16:59] <regex>	just {{ #if template_field_name | html_to_output }} ?
[03:17:25] <Splarka>	{{#if:{{{templatefieldname|}}}| true | false }}
[03:17:38] <regex>	cool thanks
[03:17:39] <Splarka>	you have to specify the name as a variable name in {{{}}}, and give a null fallback, with a pipe
[03:17:58] <Splarka>	because #if _only_ checks for a null string (or empty, for you sticklers) 
[03:18:13] <Von>	What do they expect if .js is disabled?
[03:18:16] <Splarka>	so in order to check if variable names are defined, {{{name}}} won't work, have to use {{{name|}}}
[03:18:23] <Splarka>	Von: failure
[03:18:41] <Splarka>	but as it is aesthetic, it isn't critical
[03:18:46] <Von>	That makes sense, actually... for Uncyclopedia.
[03:18:54] *_mary_kate_ 	wonders why someone would disable .js without disabling inline javascript
[03:18:55] <Splarka>	hey, same for En.wp
[03:18:56] <_mary_kate_>	;)
[03:18:57] <AaronSchulz>	TimStarling: brion can ;)
[03:19:22] <Splarka>	they used to use javascript to change titles, like IPod to iPod
[03:19:40] <Splarka>	(until DISPLAYTITLE was rewritten to facilitate such things, but DISPLAYITTLE won't work for your needs)
[03:19:55] <Von>	Yeah, what's up w/that ennywayz.
[03:20:09] <TimStarling>	AaronSchulz: you could too, you're in the coder group
[03:20:10] <Splarka>	for those playing the at home drinking game: Splarka dissing javascript, 2 drinks
[03:20:25] <Splarka>	for those playing the at home drinking game: Tim asking Aaron to review his code, finish the bottle.
[03:20:43] *Splarka 	hides
[03:20:48] <Von>	DISPLAYTITLE = happiness... once.
[03:20:50] <AaronSchulz>	TimStarling: I doubt you of all people would want me to do it
[03:20:55] <AaronSchulz>	perhaps andrew?
[03:21:09] *AaronSchulz 	pokes Werdna
[03:21:30] <TimStarling>	I'm quite happy for you to do it
[03:22:02] <regex>	Splarka, what would you suggest given that this is my true code? do I need to put it in a template to get it to work? http://pastebin.ca/1224288
[03:22:03] <TimStarling>	you're quite capable
[03:22:09] *AaronSchulz 	goes to subway
[03:22:28] <AaronSchulz>	I still have stats homework I just found out is due tomorrow
[03:22:38] <AaronSchulz>	oh well, only a few probs
[03:24:31] <Von>	regex, are you asking if that's the correct syntax for specifying {{{title}}}?
[03:24:39] <Splarka>	regex: pain and suffering are forthcoming
[03:24:47] <regex>	i have to do it splarka 
[03:24:49] <Splarka>	of you want to wrap that in a conditional, you have to escape the pipes
[03:24:50] <regex>	am committed...:)
[03:24:52] <Splarka>	^if
[03:25:03] <Splarka>	create Template:! with contents of one single | pipe
[03:25:16] <Splarka>	and replace wikitable | with {{!}}
[03:25:42] <Von>	That's sort of the prerequisite first step in creating any range of templates.
[03:26:04] <Von>	That and {{tl}}.
[03:26:10] <regex>	what's that one?
[03:26:13] <Von>	and {{t}}
[03:26:35] <Von>	{{tl}} creates a template link
[03:26:37] <Splarka>	http://pastebin.ca/1224292 <-- regex
[03:27:06] <regex>	impressive...
[03:27:08] <Splarka>	and to continue on: http://pastebin.ca/1224293
[03:27:10] <regex>	jeez
[03:27:23] <Splarka>	}}{{#if: <-- important to leave out stray <p>
[03:27:41] <Splarka>	next #if begins on same line last one closes for multiple in a row
[03:27:55] <Splarka>	regex: take a look at infoboxes on en.wp
[03:28:07] <regex>	you always give great help, thanks
[03:28:13] <Splarka>	you can enable tidy and use html instead if you want
[03:28:45] <Splarka>	{{#if:{{{foo|}}}|<tr><th>foo</th><td>{{{foo|}}}</td></tr>}}
[03:28:53] <Splarka>	a bit cleaner
[03:28:53] <regex>	i'm using Semantic Forms, need to use these parser functions to modify the templates that their template forms outputted
[03:29:03] <Splarka>	!hesaidsemantic
[03:29:03] --mwbot--	I don't know anything about "hesaidsemantic".
[03:29:12] <Splarka>	damn, whas that only mwbot2? ^_^
[03:29:50] <MrZ-man>	TimStarling: there doesn't seem to really be much of a difference in memory usage between caching on the first use vs second use
[03:30:02] <regex>	i think it would output something like, "conceptually elegant but syntactically a nightmare"
[03:30:05] <TimStarling>	nonsense
[03:30:18] <MrZ-man>	well, for a page with no repeated images
[03:30:25] <regex>	i guess that works for wikis in general
[03:30:41] <TimStarling>	are you saying you can store a file object in zero bytes?
[03:31:55] <regex>	that would violate the 2nd law of thermo!
[03:32:05] <wikibugs>	03(mod) define/document $wgUseEnotif in DefaultSettings.php - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15921  +comment (10innocentkiller)
[03:32:14] <regex>	or something:)
[03:32:48] <Von>	then how can one have a file of 0kb?
[03:33:06] <MrZ-man>	not a /significant/ difference
[03:33:35] <regex>	there is some cost to storing the file..it must be a few bytes for an empty file
[03:34:09] <_mary_kate_>	Von: that's data size, not includes metadata
[03:34:46] <_mary_kate_>	Query: CREATE UNIQUE INDEX ipb_address_unique ON ipblocks (ipb_address,ipb_user,ipb_auto,ipb_anon_only)
[03:34:46] <_mary_kate_>	Function: Database::sourceStream
[03:34:46] <_mary_kate_>	Error: 1 ERROR:  could not create unique index
[03:34:46] <_mary_kate_>	DETAIL:  Table contains duplicated values.
[03:38:55] <Von>	Damn! Wish one could do parserfunctions in css
[03:41:17] <Splarka>	regex: found it, http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/576/hesaidsemanticga2.jp
[03:41:24] <Splarka>	http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/576/hesaidsemanticga2.jpg even, failX_X
[03:43:05] <regex>	lol
[03:45:12] <regex>	this appears to be working. i have to admit that i do not want to do this 25 times, nor write a script to do it 25 times
[03:47:08] <Von>	Splarka, should this work? .foo bar:h1.firstHeading { display:none !important; }
[03:48:20] <regex>	firebug+webdeveloper
[03:48:30] <regex>	realtime testing of statements like that
[03:48:35] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED) English Wikipedia search results missing in action - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15917  +comment (10sco_scam)
[03:50:12] <Splarka>	von: no... bad css there
[03:51:15] <Von>	regex: what's the current compatible OS, there?
[03:51:25] <Splarka>	body.page-Foo h1.firstHeading { display:none !important; }
[03:51:56] <regex>	should work on linux/windows/mac
[03:51:59] <regex>	i use linux/mac
[03:52:12] <regex>	(those are both just firefox extensions)
[03:53:07] <Von>	er, yah, I meant, latest browser compatibility
[03:53:11] <Splarka>	.foo bar:h1.firstHeading would be... <obj class="foo"><bar></obj>, where the bar tag had a meta-property of h1, which doesn't exist
[03:53:24] <regex>	Von, if you want cross platform you have to use something else
[03:53:30] <regex>	erm, cross-browser fail
[03:54:30] <Splarka>	<object class="foo" id="bar">  can be selected: object, object.foo, .foo, object#bar, #bar, and object.foo#bar / object#bar.foo in some browsers
[03:54:53] <regex>	although, i do seem to recall reading about the key piece of the javascript debugger being browser independent
[03:55:04] <regex>	maybe that was safari
[03:55:35] <Splarka>	Von: well, if you could do parserfunctions in CSS, you wouldn't need them, for this
[03:55:44] <Splarka>	that would imply inline <style> tags, which would do what you want
[03:56:04] <Splarka>	you wouldn't need the .page-Pagename body class to specify hiding the h1.firstHeading on a single page
[04:00:24] <Von>	Well, what I'm trying to do is use a template per page, to say "On pages with this template, hide h1.firstHeading if "title" is specified, otherwise display {{PAGENAME}}." There are a lot of pages, so can't really list 'em all on Monobook.css. It seems to be all or nothing.
[04:00:38] <regex>	semantic forms is insane..for those of you who havent tried it
[04:00:47] <regex>	writing forms that fill out forms that write forms, and so on
[04:02:42] <Von>	regex, we need something like that for wikicode
[04:02:49] <Von>	firebug
[04:03:09] <regex>	what do you need it to do
[04:03:29] <Von>	ATM, nothing. Just seems a good idea.
[04:03:50] <Von>	I get lost in the curly braces sometimes.
[04:03:52] <regex>	yes, well like i was saying, either FF or safari has a debugger that is detachable and can be run from any browser
[04:06:08] <Splarka>	Von: for your requirements you'll need javascript, or a specific extension
[04:09:08] <Von>	Splarka, you said "where the bar tag had a meta-property of h1, which doesn't exist". Is there a way to make such a meta-property, or a substitute?
[04:09:16] <Splarka>	no
[04:09:25] <Splarka>	I don't even know what you're trying to do
[04:09:31] <Splarka>	a colon is for certain meta properties
[04:09:55] <Splarka>	like :link :active :hover :empty :root :first-child :before :after :not()
[04:10:05] <Splarka>	h1 isn't a metaproperty, it is a tag ^_^
[04:10:14] <Splarka>	addOnloadHook(function() {var h1h = document.getElementById('hidetitle'); if(h1h) { appendCSS('h1.firstHeading {display:none !important}') }});
[04:10:35] <Splarka>	there, one line of javascript to do exactly what you want (assuming you have 1.13 or higher)
[04:10:49] <Von>	1.14a... ok, will check it out
[04:11:01] <Splarka>	any page with <div id="hidetitle"></div> will hide the title
[04:11:15] <Splarka>	but only after dom load
[04:11:23] <Splarka>	(so it might blink if the page is slow to load)
[04:14:19] <Von>	Is it okay to paste .js on rafb.net?
[04:17:51] <Von>	I have no idea what half this stuff is....
[04:21:41] <regex>	are templates cached somehow? i've been bulk adding a bunch of pages while i modified a template and they all look different
[04:21:54] <regex>	e.g., they don't represent the latest template code
[04:22:00] <regex>	i didn't transclude or anything - how to clear?
[04:22:27] <Von>	bypass cache maybe?
[04:22:43] <regex>	TRUNCATE TABLE objectcache;
[04:22:45] <regex>	mebbe:p
[04:23:48] <Von>	http://rafb.net/p/VwqGwV86.html <--- Is any of that essential?
[04:24:23] <Von>	I know the collapsible frames aren't, but the rest? IIRC addonloaks is...
[04:24:56] <Von>	er, "call in onload hooks" even
[04:25:06] <regex>	hmm, no, i haven't been able to get these templates to refresh
[04:31:37] <Splarka>	Von: who created all that?
[04:32:07] <Von>	Not sure... different people I think
[04:32:32] <Von>	Looks like Wikipedia lifts
[04:33:31] <Splarka>	well, you can ignore all that and add my bit to the top (if you add it to the bottom, it'll break somehow from some other broken code, you'll come back and whine, I'll point out it isn't my fault, you'll wanna debug the code, I'll be tired, it'll be a whole mess, so just add it to the top)
[04:33:55] <Von>	I'm whining?
[04:35:43] <Splarka>	no, but you _may_, per the above scenario I've lived through a dozen or more times over
[04:35:56] *Splarka 	whines
[04:36:33] <wikibugs>	03(mod) define/document $wgUseEnotif in DefaultSettings.php - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15921  (10alan.harder)
[04:37:41] <Von>	Is "call in onload hooks" needed to start? Or can I nix all of that?
[04:38:36] <Von>	(without breaking anything, if not used)
[04:38:54] *Von 	has been at this way too long
[04:42:12] <Splarka>	well
[04:42:19] <Splarka>	for this purpose, you need an onload hook
[04:42:48] <Splarka>	javascript is executed before <body> load, so you can't .getElementById() before the body loads
[04:45:25] <Von>	I know next to nothing about javascript. Is "h1h" a class or id, and/or is that what I want for the containing div, or what is it...?
[04:46:20] <Splarka>	it is nothing, a temporary variable
[04:46:27] <Splarka>	coulda used 'foo' or whatever
[04:51:04] <Von>	Well ty for the script.
[04:51:11] <Von>	And the help.
[04:52:14] <Splarka>	rar
[04:52:40] *Von 	is going to bed and will figure out the rest later.
[05:00:06] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Cached Special: pages have stopped updating on WMF wikis - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15923 15enhancement; normal; Wikimedia: General/Unknown; (public)
[05:02:45] <Rich_Morin__>	As detailed in http://pastie.org/289203, I'm unable to download Extension:Pdf_Book.  Suggestions?
[05:04:04] <MZMcBride>	Rich_Morin__: Download the file from here: http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/extensions/PdfBook/
[05:05:11] <Rich_Morin__>	tnx; I'll try that
[05:05:47] <wikibugs>	14(DUP) Cached Special: pages have stopped updating on WMF wikis - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15923  +comment (10paul.copperman)
[05:05:56] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Special pages not being updated - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15848  +comment (10paul.copperman)
[05:06:27] <MZMcBride>	Heh. /me duped. :-)
[05:06:56] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Special pages not being updated on WMF wikis - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15848  summary (10public)
[05:08:27] <Splarka>	no bug is original
[05:08:41] <Splarka>	<s>no bug is original</s> (DUPE of: no more original bugs)
[05:11:29] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Bogus MediaWiki: message entries in page history - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2559  (10public)
[05:18:50] <MZMcBride>	https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2431 <-- Would it be fair to change the bug summary to something like "Allow recursive categorization" ?
[05:26:34] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Special pages not being updated on WMF wikis - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15848  +comment (10krimpet)
[05:31:45] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Allow recursive categorization - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2431  summary; +comment (10public)
[05:39:12] <QuestPC>	Hi! How can I include description from Media namespace to another page? Both [[Media:File.pdf]] and {{Media:File.pdf}} give a link to the file. Why transclusion of {{Media:file.pdf}} doesn't return a file description instead?
[05:40:19] <MZMcBride>	{{Image:File.pdf}}.
[05:40:26] <MZMcBride>	No period required.
[05:40:30] <MZMcBride>	Just a habit. :P
[05:40:47] <QuestPC>	Thanks, I'll try...
[05:41:02] *AaronSchulz 	is too lazy to get his laundry out
[05:41:23] <wikibugs>	03(mod)  Unable to link to titles containing double- or triple-apostrophes - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8932  +comment (10public)
[05:41:31] <wikibugs>	04(REOPENED)  Unable to link to titles containing double- or triple-apostrophes - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8932  (10public)
[05:41:36] <MZMcBride>	Whoops. >_>
[05:43:44] <QuestPC>	Strage. It really works now.
[05:43:52] <QuestPC>	Strange..
[05:44:04] *AaronSchulz 	follows http://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Code/MediaWiki/comments
[05:48:34] <TimStarling>	how could "svn diff -c 41706 GlobalFunctions.php" possibly take 25 seconds?
[05:48:43] <MZMcBride>	It was common practice to put almost all non-essential features in extensions at one point, right?
[05:49:19] <MZMcBride>	I'm reminded of some of the extensions that Rob created that were nearly trivial.
[05:49:56] <TimStarling>	DismissableSiteNotice is crap, I'm going to revert the merge
[05:50:17] <TimStarling>	we should have higher standards for core code
[05:50:24] <AaronSchulz>	yeah
[05:50:26] <TimStarling>	not this unusable ad hoc rubbish
[05:50:36] <MZMcBride>	People are working from this list: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/List_of_extensions_to_be_merged_to_the_core
[05:50:43] <TimStarling>	I know
[05:50:48] <MZMcBride>	Brion commented there a bit. Perhaps you might want to as well? :-)
[05:50:55] <TimStarling>	and I'm reverting them
[05:52:18] <MZMcBride>	My two cents: Nuke seems like a fine addition for a wiki, as long as it has an Un-Nuke option.
[05:52:28] <TimStarling>	of course it doesn't
[05:52:31] <AaronSchulz>	too specific
[05:53:26] <MZMcBride>	We get people in here maybe once a week whose wikis have been left attended and they need to delete a large number of pages. I suppose they could just install the extension, though...
[05:54:04] <MZMcBride>	http://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Code/MediaWiki/41630 <-- Diff fails here, by the way, if anyone cares.
[05:54:26] <CIA-6>	03aaron * r41922 10/trunk/extensions/CodeReview/CodeRevisionView.php: rm unused var
[05:54:41] *AaronSchulz 	installs alarm clock software
[05:56:42] <Rich_Morin__>	I have created a page containing a list of other pages (http://cfcl/smi_xmw/mediawiki-1.13.1/index.php/PrF_UG_book_list_1), but I'm not sure how to get http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Pdf_Book to process it.  Help?
[05:58:09] <Rich_Morin__>	nm
[06:00:59] <CIA-6>	03krimpet * r41923 10/trunk/phase3/ (RELEASE-NOTES includes/Article.php): Fix template-included categories from 'leaking' from older revisions when cascading protection is on.
[06:02:54] <TimStarling>	ok I'm a bit closer to working out how svn diff can take 25 seconds
[06:03:18] <TimStarling>	it tries to do a reverse DNS lookup
[06:03:31] <TimStarling>	first it uses the local resolver, waits 4 seconds, times out
[06:03:43] <TimStarling>	then it tries the resolver at pmpta, waits 4 seconds, times out
[06:04:05] <AaronSchulz>	MZMcBride: SVN proxy error
[06:06:30] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED) Categories leaking from older revisions - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15846  +comment (10krimpet)
[06:08:33] <krimpet>	Hopefully that bug didn't affect any deletion adminbots. :)
[06:08:56] <Splarka>	mmm, leaky categories
[06:08:59] <krimpet>	Would have been a fresh new way to delete the main page.
[06:12:17] <Rich_Morin__>	http://cfcl.com/smi_xmw/mediawiki-1.13.1/index.php?title=PrF_UG_book_list_1&action=pdfbook generates an empty PDF file.  Suggestions?
[06:16:33] <CIA-6>	03aaron * r41924 10/trunk/phase3/ (includes/Linker.php languages/messages/MessagesEn.php): Tweak r41829 to use new messages
[06:17:58] <_wooz>	lo
[06:34:06] <siebrand>	AaronSchulz: r41924 needs a messages.inc change
[06:48:47] <TimStarling>	ok, here's the rest of the answer: 79 packets sent with the "push" flag, 40 RTTs, ~14s network latency alone
[06:52:05] <TimStarling>	so 8s of DNS timeouts, 14s of network latency, and ~3s of local processing
[06:54:10] <CIA-6>	03aaron * r41925 10/trunk/phase3/maintenance/language/messages.inc: Update
[06:55:08] <luna6>	hmm...
[06:55:13] <luna6>	when I try edit : http://asianmediawiki.com/Category:Action_films
[06:55:14] <Splarka>	[05:48:34]-[06:48:47]
[06:55:21] <Splarka>	so it took you one hour to save 25 seconds, tim
[06:55:25] <luna6>	"You tried to edit a section that doesn't exist. Since there is no section , there's no place to save your edit. "
[06:55:40] <Splarka>	144 commits to pay for it? ^_^
[07:00:46] <luna6>	is there a way to edit that page ?
[07:02:12] <Splarka>	try http://asianmediawiki.com/Category:Action_films?action=edit&section=0  ?
[07:02:45] <luna6>	bingo
[07:02:50] <luna6>	thanks!
[07:02:53] <luna6>	what causes that?
[07:03:30] <Splarka>	gremlins?
[07:03:40] <luna6>	hmm
[07:03:42] <luna6>	heh ok
[07:03:52] <luna6>	as long as i can edit it i wont question it
[07:03:53] <luna6>	thanks
[07:04:17] <Splarka>	odd, what is on that page?
[07:04:29] <luna6>	listing of action movies
[07:04:41] <luna6>	no text per se
[07:06:00] <Splarka>	it fails to return the content in the api, odd
[07:07:01] <Werdna>	AaronSchulz: I'm around now, if you like.
[07:08:12] <Splarka>	luna6: http://asianmediawiki.com/index.php?title=Category:Action_films&action=history  the page content was <google>WIKI</google>? sounds like a faulty extension, or sommat
[07:08:20] <Werdna>	ah, Tim wanted some code review.
[07:08:42] <luna6>	ahh that part was deleted splarka I dont use the extension anymore...
[07:08:53] <Werdna>	TimStarling: did you still want some code looked at?
[07:09:04] <Werdna>	I'll look at it, if you still need it and trust me :)
[07:09:06] <Splarka>	luna: might explain it then, making the page inaccessable
[07:09:12] <luna6>	maybe its still active though i will look into it ...do you think it could be because my wiki is installed in root dir and not /root//wiki?
[08:16:29] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) on the form input: double urlencode problem of title - 10http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15924 15enhancement; normal; MediaWiki extensions: Semantic Forms; (araste)
[08:17:59] <wikibugs>	03(mod) on the form input: double urlencode problem of title - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15924  15enhancement->major (10araste)
[08:18:26] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Greater flexibility with references - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5997  (10vacuum)
[08:27:14] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Authors field - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14853  (10yaron57)
[08:28:36] <wikibugs>	03(mod)  freetext field needs to insert empty line before content on output - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15909  (10yaron57)
[08:30:39] <wikibugs>	14(DUP) initial cursor placement/focus - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15922  +comment (10lejonel)
[08:30:43] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Cursor should be placed in the search box - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1864  +comment (10lejonel)
[09:13:39] <Grondin>	hi AaronSchulz 
[09:19:25] <Splarka>	^15922... the new bug form really needs a top 10 list of most-duplicated-bugs
[09:19:33] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Extension special pages not recognized - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15912  (10bertrand.grondin)
[09:19:59] <Splarka>	12 dupes and counting
[09:20:44] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Extension special pages not recognized - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15912  (10bertrand.grondin)
[09:26:04] <Duesentrieb>	good idea Splarka :)
[09:35:07] <MZMcBride>	New bug form?
[09:40:21] <CIA-6>	03nikerabbit * r41926 10/trunk/extensions/Translate/groups/FreeCol.php: * Add the new messages to optionals
[09:40:52] <Splarka>	MZMcBride: '"new bug" form', not 'new "bug form"'
[09:41:26] <MZMcBride>	Oh. :-(
[09:41:47] <Splarka>	https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/enter_bug.cgi
[09:42:08] <MZMcBride>	Yes, yes. I'm familiar with it. The URL for Kate's Tool is old.
[09:42:35] <MZMcBride>	Tools. *
[09:57:34] <Danny_B>	how are line endings stored? always converted to either CRLF or LFonly or how? can i count on that action raw will give me always same line endings?
[10:07:24] <wikibugs>	03(mod) SVG image should have link to PNG version - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6834  (10alexander_berlin)
[10:33:32] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Allow refs to be hidden - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15724  (10N/A)
[10:35:16] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Tooltip and accesskey for 'Cite this page' toolbox link - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14854  (10N/A)
[10:40:56] <wikibugs>	03(mod) SVG image should have link to PNG version - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6834  (10alexander_berlin)
[11:00:54] <chrisc>	hmm, the GPG and SHA-1 and MD5 checksums all fail to match the latest mediawiki-1.13.2.tar.gz
[11:01:08] <chrisc>	wrt http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/mediawiki-announce/2008-October/000078.html
[11:02:47] <Werdna>	TimStarling: 11:15 < chrisc> hmm, the GPG and SHA-1 and MD5 checksums all fail to match the latest mediawiki-1.13.2.tar.gz
[11:03:13] <chrisc>	Werdna: is it only me, did you also check?
[11:03:27] <Werdna>	no
[11:04:08] <shadowie>	anyone know why Cite looses all references above where I use DynamicPageList in an article? <references/> returns none of the references above the {{dpl# thingy
[11:06:16] <chrisc>	hmm, i downloaded it to another machine and the gpg sig is good... weird
[11:07:23] <chrisc>	however the md5 and sha1's still don't match?!
[11:08:06] <chrisc>	oops
[11:08:08] <chrisc>	hang on
[11:09:35] <chrisc>	the valid gpg sig is for 1.13.1.tar.gz
[11:10:44] <chrisc>	yeah, same result for mediawiki-1.13.2.tar.gz.sig:
[11:10:49] <chrisc>	gpg: BAD signature from "Tim Starling <tstarling@wikimedia.org>"
[11:14:14] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED) define/document $wgUseEnotif in DefaultSettings.php - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15921  +comment (10innocentkiller)
[11:17:58] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Asymmetric rendering of bytes-changed in watchlists - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15925 minor; normal; MediaWiki: User interface; (happy_melon)
[11:22:06] <TheWoozle>	Does anyone have any idea how to remove categories added to the outer page by an inner (transcluded) page?
[11:23:12] <TheWoozle>	Clearing them from $wgOut during the tag-parsing phase doesn't seem to work, so the categories must get added later than that...
[11:38:26] *TheWoozle 	settles for manually putting in <noinclude></noinclude> around the categories on every single effing page, for now...
[11:48:43] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Feature request: Custom HTTP 404 error page - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15926 15enhancement; normal; Wikimedia: Site requests; (shizhao)
[11:50:19] <wikibugs>	14(INVALID)  freetext field needs to insert empty line before content on output - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15909  +comment (10mail)
[11:54:59] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Special pages not being updated on WMF wikis - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15848  (10N/A)
[12:03:11] <DarkoNeko>	uuh
[12:03:27] <DarkoNeko>	md5 is 32 char, sha1 is 40, right. how wuld they match ?
[12:04:13] <Nikerabbit>	DarkoNeko: ...
[12:04:21] <Nikerabbit>	you don't compare md5 to sha1
[12:04:28] <Nikerabbit>	you compare both to the published values
[12:05:23] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Feature request: Custom HTTP 404 error page - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15926  -easy  (10danny.b)
[12:06:37] <DarkoNeko>	:o ok
[12:16:31] <wikibugs>	03(mod)  Asymmetric rendering of bytes-changed in watchlists and recentchanges - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15925  summary; +comment (10happy_melon)
[12:22:27] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Enable Special:Nuke on pl.wikipedia - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15927 15enhancement; normal; Wikimedia: Site requests; (danny.leinad)
[12:28:37] <lch>	huh
[12:28:43] <lch>	parser error
[12:46:05] <lch>	!seen HappyDog
[12:46:05] --mwbot--	I am not your secretary, use /nickserv info <user>
[12:49:28] <lch>	!extensions
[12:49:28] --mwbot--	MediaWiki has been built so it can easily be customized by adding extensions. This is usually a simple process. See <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Extensions> for instructions to install extensions, as well as for writing them. See <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_Matrix> for an overview of known extensions.
[12:56:30] <lenary>	guys
[12:56:34] <lenary>	do any of you know where i can get the source code to the category grapher
[12:56:47] <lenary>	the link on its page is dead
[12:58:25] <due>	lenary: CategoryTree?
[13:02:12] <lenary>	due: not what i asked about, but it looks as though it does the same thing
[13:02:13] <lenary>	thanks
[13:02:53] <Simetrical>	lenary, CategoryTree is used by Wikipedia, so it's pretty much guaranteed to be maintained for the long term
[13:02:53] <Simetrical>	.
[13:03:20] <lenary>	the one i was looking at was called catgraph
[13:03:35] <Simetrical>	Actually, it might be a good candidate for merging into core.  A nice general-purpose interface improvement.
[13:03:42] <lenary>	http://toolserver.org/~dapete/catgraph/
[13:04:15] <due>	Ah.
[13:04:22] <due>	The toolserver's SVN repos moved.
[13:04:30] <lenary>	awesome
[13:04:34] <lenary>	where is it now?
[13:05:09] <due>	If it wasn't being so slow I'd give you a direct link.
[13:05:17] <lenary>	thanks
[13:07:19] <due>	lenary: http://fisheye.toolserver.org/ Somewhere in there.
[13:07:38] <lenary>	thanks
[13:08:50] <lenary>	i get what you mean about slow
[13:08:51] <TimStarling>	$ time svn diff -c 41706 file:///var/svn/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/includes/GlobalFunctions.php
[13:08:54] <lenary>	but anyway... brb
[13:08:59] <TimStarling>	real	0m0.055s
[13:09:21] <TimStarling>	the wonders of svnsync
[13:09:26] <TimStarling>	better than 25 seconds eh?
[13:27:46] <Simetrical>	"Notice: Undefined variable: s in /var/www/git-trunk/phase3/skins/Nostalgia.php on line 28"
[13:28:03] <Simetrical>	An entire function is returning an empty string for Nostalgia instead of the stuff it's supposed to return.
[13:28:08] *Simetrical 	blames
[13:29:26] <Duesentrieb>	"git-trunk"? huh?
[13:29:35] <Simetrical>	http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/skins/Nostalgia.php?r1=35098&r2=41770
[13:29:41] <Simetrical>	Duesentrieb, I use git-svn.
[13:30:05] <Duesentrieb>	ah. i should look into git a bit at some point i guess
[13:30:40] <Simetrical>	Oh, wait.
[13:30:46] <Simetrical>	Of course, it's not actually broken, is it?
[13:30:56] <Simetrical>	PHP will initialize it to null and happily append stuff.
[13:31:00] <Simetrical>	So it's just an E_NOTICE.
[13:36:05] <wikibugs>	03(mod) [PATCH] Nostalgia skin has no user pages links - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15868  +comment (10Simetrical+wikibugs)
[13:42:11] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED) Compatibility Issues between FCKeditor and SemanticMediaWiki - 10http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15916  +comment (10markus)
[14:52:20] <khamer>	Why doesn't the page title 'Switchedboard DNS Maintenance' match the search *DNS* ?
[15:04:23] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Nostalgia has a trailing | in link lines which perhaps should not be there - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15928 15enhancement; normal; MediaWiki: User interface; (nsk)
[15:10:43] <wikibugs>	03(mod) [PATCH] Nostalgia skin has no user pages links - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15868  (10nsk)
[15:10:53] <wikibugs>	03(mod) make #time work with pre-1970 dates - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11686  (10Simetrical+wikibugs)
[15:17:33] <lch>	khamer, maybe the SQL search only takes words with four characters and up
[15:17:51] <lch>	in that case you need to configure your SQL database
[15:22:03] <wikibugs>	03(mod) [PATCH] Nostalgia skin has no user pages links - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15868  (10nsk)
[15:26:23] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) CologneBlue.php may need code modernisation - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15929 15enhancement; normal; MediaWiki: User interface; (nsk)
[15:26:42] <Simetrical>	No kidding.
[15:27:24] <wikibugs>	03(mod) [PATCH] Nostalgia skin has no user pages links - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15868  (10nsk)
[15:30:00] <lch>	huh, http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TimeOffset is an empty page since a year
[15:30:04] <lch>	cleanup?
[15:38:37] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Nostalgia should have both edit links bolded - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15930 15enhancement; normal; MediaWiki: User interface; (nsk)
[15:39:03] <lch>	can I place a direct link to action=history for a page somehow?
[15:40:22] <lenary>	Ich: you could just link to the page itself
[15:40:32] <lenary>	it would show up as external though
[15:40:35] <lenary>	i think
[15:40:44] <lch>	so I need to use external links for that?
[15:41:21] <lenary>	ich: i think so
[15:41:33] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Red links to templates should be in class "error" - 10http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15729   +need-parsertest +need-review +patch; +comment (10rene.kijewski)
[15:45:16] <lch>	found out that the localurl and fullurl templates help with that
[15:45:38] <lenary>	ich: cool
[15:58:21] <brion>	morrrrrnin
[16:00:25] <AaronSchulz>	brion: what is $wgRC2UDPPrefix for?
[16:00:42] *AaronSchulz 	greets brion with a question
[16:00:51] <brion>	AaronSchulz: i believe that's for indicating which wiki channel it's gonna go to
[16:01:05] <AaronSchulz>	ok, that's what I thought
[16:01:19] <brion>	'wgRC2UDPPrefix' => array(
[16:01:20] <brion>	    'default'  => "#\$lang.\$site\t",
[16:01:43] <brion>	so that can get overridden eg:
[16:01:44] <brion>	    'foundationwiki' => "#wikimediafoundation.org\t",
[16:07:13] <Grondin>	hi brion
[16:07:31] <Grondin>	hi AaronSchulz 
[16:24:15] <wikibugs>	03(mod) After upgrading to SMW and installing the SPARQL endpoint, SMW_refreshData.php doesn't work anymore - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15117  (10cariaso)
[16:25:44] <lch>	I have $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; but I don't get a backtrace when experiencing errors in the Parser, how come?
[16:31:50] <aveeno>	how do I restrict registration? either by moderating or manually adding users?
[16:32:49] <BusyNeko>	see user rights
[16:33:21] <aveeno>	thanks busyneko
[16:33:24] <BusyNeko>	but then yes, you'll have to add them manually (or use some LDAP system if your users are already listed on one)
[16:34:19] <aveeno>	in user rights management?
[16:35:15] <aveeno>	ah, I see it! "prevent account creation"
[16:36:22] <BusyNeko>	yes
[16:39:04] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) error when updating database - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15931 04CRIT; normal; MediaWiki extensions: CodeReview; (bertrand.grondin)
[16:44:39] <Sean_Colombo>	every day around noon, my site seems to get backed up for about half an hour - it appears that most thread are waiting on an update to the site_stats table...
[16:45:05] <Sean_Colombo>	is that a common issue during high-traffic times, and is there a known way to make it chill out a bit?
[16:48:41] <Sean_Colombo>	one thought would be that maybe we could make it update the number of views by 5 but only do that on 1 out of every 5 requests?
[16:48:54] <Sean_Colombo>	i don't know if there is a setting like that though
[16:50:17] <wikibugs>	03(mod) error when updating database - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15931  +comment (10Platonides)
[16:53:12] <wikibugs>	03(mod) More information in hookaborted API error needed - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14261  (10maxsem.wiki)
[16:55:27] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Incrase $wgMaximumMovedPages on English Wikibooks - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15932 normal; normal; Wikimedia: Site requests; (mikelifeguard)
[17:14:53] <Tu13es>	can I do something equivalent to <pre? except without separating the content or making it fixed-width?
[17:15:10] <Tu13es>	basically i have a block of text with newlines that i want to keep
[17:15:40] <brion>	try <poem> maybe :)
[17:15:48] <brion>	(may still be a separate extension)
[17:16:12] <Tu13es>	yeah, doesn't appear to work
[17:16:22] <Sean_Colombo>	There is a <lyrics> extension on LyricWiki which is probably just like <poem> (only that it works ;))
[17:16:30] <Tu13es>	:p
[17:16:36] <Sean_Colombo>	hmm... doesn't look like i ever put the sourcecode anywhere though :-/
[17:16:37] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED) Incrase $wgMaximumMovedPages on English Wikibooks - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15932  +comment (10brion)
[17:16:37] <Tu13es>	is there no way without extensions?
[17:16:42] <Tu13es>	i could've sworn i did this before
[17:17:07] <Sean_Colombo>	i've never heard of it
[17:17:16] <Sean_Colombo>	otherwise we wouldn't have written <lyrics>
[17:17:19] <Tu13es>	hmm
[17:17:28] <Tu13es>	so without an extension i'd have to do <br> everywhere?
[17:17:37] <Sean_Colombo>	well... unless you can change the style
[17:17:41] <Sean_Colombo>	can you do that?
[17:17:58] <Tu13es>	hm?
[17:18:09] <Sean_Colombo>	can you do inline-css on your wiki?
[17:18:17] <Tu13es>	i'm 18 i do what i want :P
[17:18:24] <Sean_Colombo>	:-D hahahaha
[17:18:25] <Tu13es>	i'm making a private wiki for recipes
[17:18:37] <Tu13es>	and basically want an easy way to keep the ingredient lists as lists
[17:19:00] <Sean_Colombo>	badass.... one sec
[17:20:48] <Tu13es>	I realize ther are a bunch of ways I could do it, but I guess I'm looking for the easiest way
[17:20:48] <Sean_Colombo>	if you wrap a tag around the code
[17:20:51] <Tu13es>	so, like, my mom could do it
[17:20:51] <Sean_Colombo>	then do the style of
[17:20:53] <Sean_Colombo>	white-space:pre;
[17:21:40] <Sean_Colombo>	so if you put in your CSS <div class="recipe"> or something and then have the rule in your stylesheet ".recipe{white-space:pre;}" you should be cool
[17:21:52] <Tu13es>	ah, good idea of making a recipe class
[17:23:11] <Tu13es>	hmm
[17:23:14] <Sean_Colombo>	brion: do you guys ever get overwhelmed by SiteStatsUpdate::doUpdate when traffic is peaking?
[17:23:30] <Tu13es>	Sean_Colombo: what does the white-space do?
[17:23:55] <Sean_Colombo>	that's the rule that makes it behave where "\n" are line-breaks instead of <br/>
[17:24:06] <Tu13es>	ah ha
[17:24:14] <Tu13es>	hmm
[17:24:21] <Tu13es>	can I just set that globally for the whole wiki or something?
[17:24:25] <Tu13es>	instead of having to use css?
[17:24:40] <Sean_Colombo>	for the recipe class you mean?
[17:24:44] <Sean_Colombo>	or for all wikitext?
[17:24:48] <Tu13es>	for all, i guess
[17:25:02] <Sean_Colombo>	that'll probably mess up other stuff but....
[17:25:28] <brion>	Sean_Colombo: try disabling the counter updates
[17:25:53] <brion>	and/or try tweaking $wgHitcounterUpdateFreq
[17:25:56] <Sean_Colombo>	you could test it out by putting "#bodyContent{white-space:pre;}" which would do the whole article text
[17:26:01] <brion>	(i'm not 100% sure how well that works though)
[17:26:17] <Sean_Colombo>	!wg HitCounterUpdateFreq
[17:26:17] --mwbot--	http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:%24wgHitCounterUpdateFreq
[17:26:31] <Sean_Colombo>	brion: thanks :)
[17:26:55] <Sean_Colombo>	my site tends to be useless during lunch-hour on the East Coast of the US
[17:27:04] <Tu13es>	Sean_Colombo: where do I put that?
[17:27:24] <Sean_Colombo>	in /MediaWiki:Common.css
[17:27:34] <Tu13es>	kk
[17:27:40] <Tu13es>	thanks Sean_Colombo :)
[17:28:01] <Sean_Colombo>	Tu13es: no problem :)
[17:28:21] <Sean_Colombo>	brion: do you know what value Wikipedia uses for wgHitcounterUpdateFreq?
[17:29:56] <Platonides>	wikipedia doesn't use per page counters
[17:30:04] <Sean_Colombo>	hmmm
[17:30:07] <brion>	Sean_Colombo: we disable the counters entirely (not only would it be a performance problem, but they wouldn't be accurate due to our caching setup)
[17:30:15] <Sean_Colombo>	hmm
[17:30:36] <Sean_Colombo>	maybe i should just do that at some-ponit :-/  mine is prob far from accurate also (cuz of the squid & whatnot)
[17:30:40] <brion>	we now have a separate system for getting page hit counts from our proxy logs, but we haven't yet integrated updates from it back into mediawiki
[17:30:52] <Sean_Colombo>	oh, that's pretty cool :)
[17:31:07] <wikibugs>	03(mod) [PATCH] Nostalgia skin has no user pages links - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15868  (10Simetrical+wikibugs)
[17:31:08] <Sean_Colombo>	so it uses Squid logs and apache logs?
[17:31:28] <Sean_Colombo>	or is there some other log that isn't occuring to me?
[17:31:44] <Sean_Colombo>	oh wait... it wouldn't need apache logs if you have the squid logs
[17:31:45] <Sean_Colombo>	my bad!
[17:32:04] <Sean_Colombo>	coolness though.  thanks for the info bretm
[17:32:10] <Sean_Colombo>	*brion
[17:36:04] <Simetrical>	brion, should we really have the Poem extension in core?  That seems way too narrow.
[17:37:24] <Platonides>	is it in core?
[17:37:33] <Simetrical>	Someone merged it, yeah.
[17:37:37] <Platonides>	I thought it was a separated extension
[17:38:04] <Platonides>	it was only enabled on some wikis (wikibooks?)
[17:38:05] <Sean_Colombo>	it seems useful for a number of things... they won't all be poems though
[17:38:18] <Platonides>	Sean_Colombo, agree
[17:38:27] <Platonides>	but perhaps then it should be renamed?
[17:38:41] <Sean_Colombo>	any ideas?   i've got nothing :-/
[17:38:56] <Platonides>	Sean_Colombo, ideas for what?
[17:38:58] <Simetrical>	Sean_Colombo, it's called <poem>.  That's pretty dang narrow.
[17:39:10] <Sean_Colombo>	Platonides: ideas for a better name
[17:39:17] <Simetrical>	What exactly does it do different from <pre> again, other than styling?
[17:39:17] <Sean_Colombo>	yeah. the name is definitely narrow
[17:39:34] <Simetrical>	Why can't people use <pre class="poem">?  (<pre> does support classes and stuff, right?)
[17:39:59] <Platonides>	Simetrical, the reason is probably at bugzilla
[17:40:43] <Simetrical>	Which of the 16,000 or so bugs were you thinking of specifically?
[17:40:57] <Simetrical>	On general principle, yeah, it probably is.
[17:40:58] <brion>	Simetrical: it's trivial enough i don't really mind it
[17:41:06] <Simetrical>	brion, syntax bloat . . .
[17:41:13] <brion>	*sniff*
[17:41:31] <brion>	maybe we could make a parser function :)
[17:42:08] <Platonides>	allow to define tag mappings?
[17:42:09] <Simetrical>	Because it's totally not syntax bloat if you use {{#...}} instead of <...>, I agree.
[17:42:13] <Simetrical>	:P
[17:42:26] <Platonides>	so <poem> magically acts as <pre class="poem">
[17:42:28] <Simetrical>	brion, by the way, why are we not allowing <acronym>, etc.?
[17:42:30] <Mike_lifeguard>	9_9
[17:42:43] <Mike_lifeguard>	how big is it, like 10 lines?
[17:42:44] <brion>	"syntax bloat" ;)
[17:42:47] <Simetrical>	Mike_lifeguard, do you know why <poem> is used and not <pre class="poem">?
[17:42:57] <Mike_lifeguard>	no; are they equivalent?
[17:42:57] <Simetrical>	brion, yeah, I was wondering about the inconsistency.  ;)
[17:43:06] <Simetrical>	Mike_lifeguard, I don't see why they wouldn't be?
[17:43:21] <Mike_lifeguard>	well I don't know what either one looks like, so.. :D
[17:44:10] <brion>	Simetrical: i think i changed my mine on <acronym> a couple years ago, let's go ahead and add it if we didn't already
[17:44:14] <Platonides>	poem uses a div, not a <pre>
[17:44:26] <Simetrical>	brion, personally I think <abbr> and <acronym> are retarded, though.
[17:44:35] <brion>	aww
[17:44:44] <Sean_Colombo>	Simetrical: they're part of the HTML spec though, right?
[17:44:45] <brion>	the thing they're best for is screen readers
[17:44:52] <Simetrical>	brion, I haven't heard *anyone* give me *one* good reason for why they're useful.
[17:45:01] <Simetrical>	People say "screen readers!", but what do screen readers actually use them for?
[17:45:02] <brion>	so the text-to-speech engine can tell the difference between SHOUTING and ACRONYMS
[17:45:11] <Sean_Colombo>	ah, neato
[17:45:14] <Simetrical>	Hmmm.
[17:45:20] <Sean_Colombo>	i fricking LOVE NASA!!!!
[17:45:21] <Simetrical>	Is that really a problem in practice?
[17:45:24] <brion>	dunno
[17:45:28] <brion>	but it's a nice theory
[17:45:31] <Simetrical>	Well, I *definitely* hate the title attribute on them.
[17:45:52] <Simetrical>	Because hiding the meaning of an acronym (which is probably incomprehensible anyway) in hover text is *totally* the accessible thing to do.
[17:46:12] <Simetrical>	I mean, if you don't know what "HTML" means, "HyperText Markup Language" is going to be totally helpful.
[17:46:37] <Simetrical>	(Yeah, so maybe someone knows what "markup language" means, but not "HTML".  That's totally probable.)
[17:47:04] <Simetrical>	Platonides, XHTML processors are theoretically allowed to change around whitespace inside divs.  They're only not supposed to inside <pre>.  So hypothetically using divs is dangerous.
[17:47:13] <brion>	what i frequently wish for on blogs is a "jargon context" tag
[17:47:16] <Simetrical>	Except that nobody actually processes XHTML using XML processors.
[17:47:19] <brion>	that will link me to what the fuck they're talking about
[17:47:23] <Simetrical>	brion, that's called <a>.
[17:47:27] <Simetrical>	srsly.
[17:47:28] <brion>	;)
[17:47:42] <Simetrical>	<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML">HTML</a>
[17:47:59] <Sean_Colombo>	i think <abbr> is useful from a symantic web standpoint
[17:48:03] <brion>	Simetrical: an XML process wouldn't know for sure the difference between <pre> and <div>, that's what xml:whitespace attribute is for ;)
[17:48:17] <Sean_Colombo>	it lets computers build definitions and get context into what you mean without having to build classifiers for everything
[17:48:24] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED)  Nostalgia has a trailing | in link lines which perhaps should not be there - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15928  +comment (10Simetrical+wikibugs)
[17:48:31] <Simetrical>	brion, an XML processor would know the difference if it had the DTD.
[17:48:46] <Simetrical>	But it could never parse CSS.
[17:49:14] <brion>	but it might not! that's the key to XML -- unlike SGML, you're supposed to always be able to parse without a DTD
[17:49:18] <Simetrical>	Sean_Colombo, only in the incredibly special case of acronyms.  Which isn't a big help to sweeping visions of a semantic web.
[17:49:29] <brion>	at least for purposes of sucking data in and spitting it back out
[17:49:33] <Simetrical>	brion, yes, but you aren't supposed to be able to change around whitespace without a DTD.
[17:49:36] <brion>	you need some clue what you're doing if you're going to make sense of it ;)
[17:52:58] <Sean_Colombo>	Simetrical: i don't see it as too much of a special-case thing.  i do a bunch of semantic stuff @ my day-job and stuff like WWF is hard to figure out
[17:53:09] <Sean_Colombo>	not to mention technical acronyms
[17:53:29] <Simetrical>	Sean_Colombo, but prose in HTML is completely incomprehensible to any kind of semantic reader, isn't it?
[17:54:06] <Sean_Colombo>	Simetrical: it's hard but not incomprehensible
[17:54:21] <Sean_Colombo>	we do an okay job... but semantic hints like <abbr> and microformats are a huge help
[17:55:00] <Simetrical>	Why would you be able to understand "World Wildlife Fund" but not "WWF"?  Just because the acronym is ambiguous?
[17:55:34] <Sean_Colombo>	basically, we'd just be more certain of correctness if we had World Wildlife Fund
[17:56:05] <Simetrical>	Well, it's useless to human readers, anyway.  The little dotted underline on every blasted acronym is just bad style.
[17:56:27] <Sean_Colombo>	haha def.  i'd only do it once per page, but i don't think i use it often
[17:56:37] <Simetrical>	When I see it I want to stab the author's eyes out with a spoon labeled "BLINDLY FOLLOWING STANDARDS IS STUPID".
[17:56:38] <Sean_Colombo>	i also don't use <dt> and <dd> and stuff as often as i should
[17:56:51] <Simetrical>	. . . But I tend to have strong opinions.
[17:56:56] <Sean_Colombo>	i see that :)
[17:57:12] *brion 	moves to replace all elements with just <div>, <span>, and <script>
[17:58:20] <Simetrical>	I would say that semantic elements are good in HTML if they would normally be presented differently in some way.  Like <strong>, <em>, <ul>.  But acronyms are just part of the prose.  They aren't special or distinguished.
[17:58:27] <Simetrical>	It would be like having <noun> and <verb>.
[17:58:42] <Simetrical>	Except sufficiently less common that it's not blatantly moronic, only subtly so.
[17:59:00] <Sean_Colombo>	:)
[17:59:00] <Simetrical>	HTML is meant to mark up *structure*, not distinguish different types of words.
[17:59:21] <Sean_Colombo>	i think abbrs are displayed differently though
[17:59:33] <Sean_Colombo>	having part of the data hidden by default and optionally revealed isn't normal
[17:59:33] <Simetrical>	Well, sometimes they're put in small caps, true.
[17:59:52] <Simetrical>	No, I mean that they should be displayed differently in normal text.  Like, not just because the standard says they should be.
[18:00:03] <Simetrical>	Otherwise my opinion would be circular.
[18:00:26] <Simetrical>	Nobody actually *wants* to display acronyms differently, they just do it because the standard says so.
[18:00:37] <Simetrical>	Whereas normally people want to display bulleted lists differently.
[18:00:41] <Sean_Colombo>	the hidden-text part makes sense imo
[18:01:35] <wikibugs>	14(DUP) error when updating database - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15931  +comment (10bertrand.grondin)
[18:01:40] <wikibugs>	03(mod) "1071: Specified key was too long" (MySQL error) during installation - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1322  +comment (10bertrand.grondin)
[18:01:53] <Sean_Colombo>	it would be nice if it was more of a jargony-term thing like brion said though :)
[18:01:58] <Simetrical>	We somehow made do without it for the past three millennia or so.  You know, like how every single style guide in the world recommends "When using acronyms *that may be unfamiliar to your readers*, say what it stands for *in the text itself* on the *first use*".
[18:02:18] <Simetrical>	In fact that applies to any unfamiliar term.
[18:02:50] <Sean_Colombo>	i wouldn't cry if it went away, but i do still like it
[18:03:01] <Simetrical>	The best way to handle jargon is a hyperlink.  Anything inline is a) going to be used a lot less or be of worse quality because authors are stupid and/or lazy, and b) would be necessarily far less thorough.
[18:03:43] <juliano>	...
[18:03:53] <Sean_Colombo>	:)
[18:05:05] <juliano>	Simetrical: they may not serve for you, fine, but you will hardly convince everyone else of your opinion
[18:05:52] <juliano>	Your arguments sound like "i can't see any use for it, so everyone is wrong and i'm right, abbr is bad and noone should use it"
[18:06:10] <Simetrical>	juliano, why not?  I'm giving the reasons for why I think they're completely pointless.  If someone else read those reasons and thought they were good, I would expect them to be convinced.  Obviously you don't think they're good reasons.
[18:06:39] <Simetrical>	juliano, if other people use them and make web pages ugly, that affects me.  If other people write standards that mandate them and I want to be standards-compliant, that affects me.
[18:07:12] <Simetrical>	"Chuck everything into the standard and people can use what they like" is not a viable strategy.  Things that are not useful should not be included.
[18:07:40] <juliano>	webpages being "ugly" is a matter of personal taste; and the standards don't mandate that you use abbr, they suggest when appropriate
[18:07:41] <Simetrical>	Nobody has presented me with a demonstrated good use for them yet, at least not for human readers.
[18:07:45] <Sean_Colombo>	brion: any chance that squid-log-analysis script is open source?
[18:08:21] <Simetrical>	juliano, WCAG mandates the use of <abbr> and <acronym> where appropriate.  Unless you think that I'm free to interpret "where appropriate" as "never" and still be standards-compliant, I'd call that mandating them.
[18:08:46] <juliano>	for example, you may render a plain-text e-mail message in HTML containing acronyms without inserting any abbr or acronym... the standard doesn't *mandate* that you munge the plain-text to insert abbrs
[18:08:51] <BlackDuck>	Hello
[18:09:09] <brion>	Sean_Colombo: probably :)
[18:09:10] <Platonides>	Sean_Colombo, many
[18:09:24] <brion>	domas: Sean_Colombo is interested in the scripts that build page counts from squid log data
[18:09:24] <Platonides>	but as I understood, it still wasn't created
[18:09:30] <brion>	we got those handy somewhere?
[18:09:37] <wikibugs>	03(ASSIGNED) PostgreSQL: Forgotten to ALTER type of oi_metadata to bytea in updaters.inc - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15815  +comment (10greg)
[18:09:38] <BlackDuck>	I've got a Question to Mediawiki. My ReWrite rules didnt work. I become an Error 404 :( Can somesone help me ?
[18:09:44] <Simetrical>	juliano, "4.2 Specify the expansion of each abbreviation or acronym in a document where it first occurs." http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-TECHS/#tech-expand-abbr 
[18:10:02] <jorvis_>	anyone know where the content of the login form is kept?  I want to add a message to it, but templates/Userlogin.php doesn't seem to be it.
[18:10:03] <Simetrical>	"Mark up abbreviations and acronyms with ABBR and ACRONYM and use 'title' to indicate the expansion:"
[18:10:07] <Simetrical>	That's mandated.
[18:10:34] <Sean_Colombo>	Simetrical: well I think that's pretty lame, lol
[18:10:36] <Sean_Colombo>	i mean
[18:10:46] <Sean_Colombo>	<abbr title='laughing out loud'>lol</abbr>
[18:10:47] <Simetrical>	That does affect me if I want to be standards-compliant.  Which I don't in this case, precisely because I think the standard is stupid.
[18:10:51] <Simetrical>	Sean_Colombo, precisely.
[18:11:13] <Simetrical>	<abbr title="radio detecting and ranging">radar</abbr>?
[18:11:29] <wikibugs>	04(REOPENED)  Allow noncritical and possibly repetitive API queries to be cached by &maxage URI parameter - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14402  +comment (10nospam)
[18:11:37] <juliano>	Simetrical: read the introduction of such document
[18:11:45] <Simetrical>	I'm sure that <abbr title="National Aeronautics and Space Administration">NASA</abbr> helps a whole two people, too.
[18:11:55] <juliano>	[Priority 3] A Web content developer *may* address this checkpoint. Otherwise, one or more groups will find it somewhat difficult to access information in the document. Satisfying this checkpoint will improve access to Web documents.
[18:12:14] <Simetrical>	"A Web content developer may address this checkpoint. Otherwise, one or more groups will find it somewhat difficult to access information in the document. Satisfying this checkpoint will improve access to Web documents."
[18:12:17] <BlackDuck>	Hello?
[18:12:18] <BlackDuck>	http://www.abload.de/img/bestellung7tv.png
[18:12:20] <wikibugs>	03(mod)  Allow noncritical and possibly repetitive API queries to be cached by &maxage URI parameter - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14402  15enhancement->normal (10nospam)
[18:12:24] <BlackDuck>	Can someone Help me?
[18:12:40] <Sean_Colombo>	BlackDuck: i dunno what that screenshot says
[18:12:48] <Sean_Colombo>	BlackDuck: are you just trying to do the short-url trick?
[18:12:54] <BlackDuck>	Sry, that wasnt for you.
[18:13:10] <Simetrical>	Okay, fine, so it doesn't quite mandate it, but it recommends it.  And that still affects me, because it increases the number of sites that follow it (when I think the stupid underlines are annoying) and will probably get some people haranguing me at some point for not following it.
[18:13:32] <Simetrical>	You've attacked my opinion without actually giving a case where it's useful, as compared to just spelling out the acronym in the prose where appropriate.
[18:15:14] <juliano>	Simetrical: if you think the underline is distracting, you can just use abbr, acronym { text-decoration: inherit !important; } in your personal stylesheet... that is another good thing that standards allow.
[18:16:25] <Simetrical>	text-decoration: inherit is wrong.  It will cause multiple underlining/overlining/line-throughing.
[18:16:25] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED) Special: AllPages gives a database error for empty namespaces on PostgreSQL-based installations - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15836  +comment (10greg)
[18:16:56] <Simetrical>	The correct way to do it would be text-decoration: none.  Any text decoration on parents would still be drawn over children, per the spec.
[18:17:14] <Simetrical>	Of course, you'd also lose any other kind of underline, overline, strike-through, or blink that happened to be on that particular element for any reason.
[18:17:16] <juliano>	Simetrical: I argued that your arguments are mostly based on personal preference... Me (and probably a lot of people) would disagree that acronym markup is useless, or that it is anoying...
[18:17:35] <Simetrical>	juliano, if you think it's not useless, then what's a use for it?
[18:18:10] <juliano>	Simetrical: I didn't test, but I'm pretty sure that text-decoration: none would cause any parent decoration to be disabled in the tag
[18:19:13] <Simetrical>	juliano, text-decoration is never inherited.  The initial value is "none", not inherit.  This is why <span style="color:red;text-decoration:underline">x<span style="color:black;">y</span>z</span> will have a red underline across all three letters, per the spec.
[18:19:38] <Simetrical>	Changing the style on the middle span to "color:black;text-decoration:none" would be a no-op, its text-decoration is already none.
[18:19:58] <Simetrical>	Changing it to "inherit" would re-draw the underline, but this time black.
[18:20:20] <Simetrical>	Children elements' decorations get drawn *on top of* the parents', not instead of them.
[18:20:20] <juliano>	Simetrical: that would be my personal opinion too, and I have no interest into forcing my opinion upon others. But I think it is useful for adding information that would otherwise require explicit parents, or be ambiguous.
[18:21:10] <Simetrical>	juliano, so in other words you have no actual case to suggest where it would be useful, compared to actually spelling out the acronym in the text.  How many users are actually going to notice the dotted underline and try hovering to get title text?  A very large percentage of computer users just don't notice things like that.
[18:21:11] <juliano>	Simetrical: For example, I make a long article stating that "ASP could be used to enhance web servicing". What do you understand from this expression?
[18:21:32] <Simetrical>	juliano, being a web developer, I understand it as meaning you're an evil Microsoft supporter.  ;)
[18:21:35] <juliano>	s/parents/parentesis/
[18:21:39] <jorvis_>	hehe
[18:21:41] <juliano>	Simetrical: Ok...
[18:21:46] <juliano>	Simetrical: So...
[18:21:53] <Simetrical>	juliano, what you should do is <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASP">ASP</a> there.
[18:22:00] <Simetrical>	That will give a *real* *useful* explanation to users.
[18:22:12] <Simetrical>	And all of them will know that the info is available, because everyone recognizes hyperlinks.
[18:22:36] <jorvis_>	ok, it's been a while, going to repost.  :)
[18:22:37] <jorvis_>	anyone know where the content of the login form is kept?  I want to add a message to it, but templates/Userlogin.php doesn't seem to be it.
[18:22:39] <juliano>	Simetrical: "<acronym title="Application service provider">ASP could be used to enhance web servicing"
[18:22:48] <juliano>	Simetrical: does that sound different?
[18:22:51] <Simetrical>	Whereas if you do <abbr title="Active Server Pages">, then 1) a lot of people won't know to get the hover text, and 2) those who do would not be much informed.
[18:23:28] <Simetrical>	juliano, yes, it sounds more confusing.  Because I *know* what ASP means in a web-serving context.  I'm not going to hover over the little abbreviation.  So you're just misleading me.
[18:23:44] <Simetrical>	And even if I did hover over it, what would I do?
[18:23:59] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Special pages not being updated on WMF wikis - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15848  (10N/A)
[18:24:01] <Simetrical>	I'd have to look it up on Wikipedia anyway, because I have no idea what the heck "application service provider" means.
[18:24:23] <Simetrical>	<abbr title=""> provides a service that in *every case I've seen* is inferior to either explanations in prose, or hyperlinks.
[18:24:23] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED) Incorrect PostgreSQL version requirements - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15896  +comment (10greg)
[18:24:45] <juliano>	Simetrical: No, I think you lost the argument: ASP = Active Server Pages or Application Service Provider ? Note that BOTH meanings are commonly abbreviated to ASP, possibly IN THE SAME CONTEXTs.
[18:24:50] <Simetrical>	Including the element in the standard at all encourages authors to write more confusingly, by giving less information in the prose (where people will actually be guaranteed to see it) and less information overall.
[18:24:54] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED) category table is incorrect when update to 1.13 using postgres. - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15689  (10greg)
[18:25:12] <Simetrical>	juliano, yes, and that's why you need to add a parenthesized clarification.  Because I'm not going to hover over your <abbr> except by dumb luck.
[18:25:18] <Simetrical>	Since I think I know what ASP means in this context.
[18:25:25] <Simetrical>	So the title is useless to me.
[18:25:51] <Simetrical>	And again, even if I did hover over it, I would have no idea what an Application Service Provider is, so you still haven't helped me understand what you mean.
[18:26:08] <Simetrical>	You want either a hyperlink or a parenthesized explanation here, *not* hover text.  Hover text is inaccessible.
[18:26:32] <juliano>	Simetrical: You may not, but in context, I won't need to repeat that same information for someone that already knows what I'm talking about... and a machine (think, the search engine crawling your site) may use this information to correctly link people looking for this or that information.
[18:26:38] <Simetrical>	Many people don't see hover text, and it's necessarily short.  You should never, in any application, rely on the user seeing your hover text.
[18:27:19] <Simetrical>	juliano, so do you think that <abbr> in this situation is more useful than a hyperlink?  Is there some reason you'd prefer it to a hyperlink to [[Application Service Provider]]?
[18:27:44] <Sean_Colombo>	http://wiki.chill-underground.net/Hauptseite
[18:27:54] <juliano>	Simetrical: not everyone publishes in Wikipedia, or wants to make external links to wikipedia
[18:28:18] <juliano>	Note that HTML is generic markup... it isn't even restricted to the internet
[18:28:33] <Sean_Colombo>	in the footer, the "�ber C|U Wiki" isn't a link... is there a way that gets disabled (it's like the "About" link) or is there possibly a problem with the internationalization or something?
[18:28:45] <juliano>	For example, Windows CHM, GNOME or KDE help files... you may read them while not connected
[18:29:48] <Simetrical>	juliano, so then an internal link to your site.  Or else put it in parentheses after the text.  Or if it's really so marginally useful that you don't care much if users miss it and don't want to waste the space, you know, most elements do accept a title attribute.  You can get the hover text regardless.
[18:30:00] <Simetrical>	Such a situation is probably not common enough to merit its own tag.
[18:30:08] <Simetrical>	But if it is, *it's not restricted to acronyms*.
[18:30:21] <Simetrical>	If it were <confusing title="..." href="...">, now, that might be useful.
[18:30:30] <Simetrical>	But acronyms and abbreviations are nothing special in terms of confusingness.
[18:31:22] <Simetrical>	If I say "Every natural number can be factored into finitely many prime numbers", if you think title text is good for disambiguation, why can't I have the title text "1, 2, 3, ..." over "natural numbers" using a special disambig tag?
[18:31:30] <juliano>	Simetrical: ok, you have a point. Perhaps the standard could make <acronym> more generic...
[18:31:41] <Simetrical>	It's the exact same case as you gave above, it just happens not to be an acronym.
[18:31:58] <lch>	TimStarling, might you have a look why a snippet of code that's trying to use the parser fails and how it can be circumvented? http://rafb.net/p/lLkJwJ72.html
[18:32:20] <lch>	this fails with "Fatal error: Call to a member function addTemplate() on a non-object in /usr/share/mediawiki/includes/Parser.php on line 3050"
[18:32:47] <Simetrical>	The problem is that there's this idea that: 1) *Every* first use of an acronym should be highlighted, which is simply stupid.  Blogs *for web developers* put title text on "HTML", *when discussing the intricacies of some new standard*.  That is just godawfully stupid.
[18:33:14] <Simetrical>	2) Title text serves as a substitute for actual explanation of the term, or disambiguation in the prose.  It simply doesn't.  At best, it can be a slight aid.
[18:33:21] <Simetrical>	But you should never rely on it.
[18:34:04] <juliano>	Simetrical: And about putting the meaning in parenthesis after the text, that is actually an option that the user agent may choose (or even allow the user to configure). So, the user has the option of collpasing meaningless explanation of jargon, or having the user agent expand the contents of <acronym> into parenthesis...
[18:34:16] <jorvis_>	ok, I found on a forum that I should edit a page called MediaWiki::Userlogin.  How do I get to that page to edit it?
[18:34:36] <juliano>	That is the point of Semantic annotation... alow machines to enhance our experience.
[18:34:50] <Simetrical>	juliano, yes, very nice in theory, but first of all, no UA actually does it.  Second of all, that just brings back the clutter that was the explicit reason for you not using parentheses in the first place.
[18:35:29] <Simetrical>	If the user is smart enough to figure out how to configure that himself, he can probably figure out how to get a context-menu option to get a dictionary definition or something.
[18:35:56] <Simetrical>	And by the way, <abbr title="x" style="text-decoration: none">y</abbr> doesn't hide the underline in Firefox.
[18:36:06] <Simetrical>	It's not a real underline, it's dotted or something.
[18:36:08] <Simetrical>	Magicaly.
[18:36:09] <Simetrical>	Magical.
[18:36:34] <juliano>	Simetrical: In firefox, I think it is border-bottom... for some braindeadness of Mozilla or something
[18:36:56] <Simetrical>	No, that makes sense.
[18:37:04] <Simetrical>	underline doesn't allow different underline styling.
[18:37:23] <Simetrical>	But wow, I just spent 35 minutes of my life arguing about the utility of some HTML tags with strangers on the Internet.  When I have actual, like, things to do.
[18:37:37] <Simetrical>	I should at least argue with strangers in the HTML5 WG or something, be productive.
[18:37:43] *Simetrical 	checks what HTML5 says about this
[18:38:42] <jorvis_>	can you not edit Special pages?
[18:38:48] <juliano>	Simetrical: That happens when you have opinios that are way too strong...
[18:38:56] <jorvis_>	(or correct)
[18:39:06] <Simetrical>	jorvis_, special pages are created dynamically, from scripts.  They don't have any content to edit.
[18:39:14] <Simetrical>	juliano, well, as long as they're intelligent.  :)
[18:39:31] <juliano>	Simetrical: Ok, now lets argue why git is stupid...
[18:39:32] <Simetrical>	jorvis_, MediaWiki:Userlogin is not a special page, though, it's an interface page.
[18:39:35] <jorvis_>	Simetrical - I want the login form to display something like "If you want an account please e-mail foo@blahblah.com"
[18:39:39] <jorvis_>	but don't know where to place that
[18:39:40] <juliano>	LOL
[18:39:48] <Simetrical>	jorvis_, just type that into the search box and hit "Go".
[18:39:48] <jorvis_>	I don't mind editing th PHP, but couldn't find where it was populating it
[18:39:56] <juliano>	*<abbr title="Laughing out loud">LOL</abbr>
[18:39:58] <Simetrical>	jorvis_, then edit.
[18:40:06] <jorvis_>	I tried that and it didn't do what I wanted
[18:40:18] <Simetrical>	juliano, I <3 git.  Although it's braindead in a couple of niggling details (not wrapping commit messages?!).
[18:40:25] <jorvis_>	it essentially changed the Login / Create account label that's in the upper-right corner
[18:40:33] <jorvis_>	which then became crazy long
[18:40:38] <Simetrical>	jorvis_, go to Special:Allmessages and search to find the right message.
[18:40:43] <Simetrical>	Userlogin is obviously not right.  :)
[18:41:22] <juliano>	Simetrical: Yeah, you showed your love of git a few times already... but I still think that Linus would have made a better job doing kernels, not version control systems...
[18:41:39] <Simetrical>	Hmm, HTML5 keeps <abbr> (without making suggestions as to how to use it) but drops <acronym>.
[18:41:45] <Simetrical>	Maybe I should post to their mailing list sometime.
[18:41:49] <Simetrical>	juliano, what parts don't you like?
[18:42:06] <jorvis_>	ah, there it is
[18:44:54] <juliano>	Simetrical: git is too simplist, there is a big ammount of scientific research around VCSs, merge tracking and so... Linus just ignored everything and did a simple tool for his needs... that would be fine until all this hype around git emerged
[18:45:05] <lch>	TimStarling, in case you're reading this, I think I fixed it by adding a $Parser->clearState();
[18:45:20] <Simetrical>	juliano, what specific ideas do you think it's missing, though?
[18:45:58] <juliano>	Simetrical: intelligent, content-aware merging, like that done in darcs
[18:46:09] <Simetrical>	Not familiar with darcs, so I can't comment on that.
[18:46:16] <Simetrical>	Obviously the merge algorithms are pluggable, though.
[18:46:42] <juliano>	Simetrical: that is the problem... all the hype around git is from people that don't actually know anything about merge tracking
[18:46:42] <Simetrical>	By "content-aware" do you imply that git should need to know much of anything about the semantics of its files?  Wouldn't that be hard to implement for a generic VCS?
[18:47:02] <Simetrical>	juliano, all the hype around git is from people who used Subversion or CVS, tried git, and liked it a lot more.
[18:47:13] <Simetrical>	And therefore suggest people switch from Subversion to git.
[18:47:30] <juliano>	Simetrical: it donesn't need to know the meaning of the contents, but know what happened to the contents through revisions...
[18:47:41] <Simetrical>	It's not from people saying git attains some Platonic ideal of version control and is the best possible system and incorporates all possible positive features.  Just that . . . it's better.
[18:47:59] <Simetrical>	If there are still better features that could be added, great, someone should add them, or start from scratch with another VCS.
[18:48:15] <juliano>	the simple decision to drop rename-tracking set git back about a decade... no pluggable merge argorithm will fix that, if the information is lost upon commit
[18:48:18] <Simetrical>	All I'm saying is it's better than SVN.  If you claim there's still better stuff out there, great, where's the working code?
[18:48:28] <juliano>	Simetrical: that is another problem, Subversion and CVS suck too
[18:48:37] <Simetrical>	git just sucks less, mainly.
[18:48:50] <Simetrical>	In practice, I've found its auto-rename-tracking to be perfectly serviceable.  What's wrong with it?
[18:48:54] <juliano>	Although Subversion, in many ways, suck less than git (yes, I know what I'm talking about).
[18:48:55] <Nikerabbit>	hi Simetrical
[18:49:19] <Simetrical>	Nikerabbit, hi.
[18:49:44] <juliano>	Simetrical: if you can't differentiate a rename from a copy followed by a delete, you killed some of the best merge-tracking algorithms
[18:50:02] <Simetrical>	juliano, which ones, and why?
[18:51:46] <juliano>	Simetrical: because they are different operations, across merges. if you rename, the file should be considered the same across branches, and merges to the original should apply to the renamed one in the branch. If you explicitly copied the file than deleted the original, you explicitly say that is a new entity, not entitled to inherit changes
[18:52:30] <juliano>	(although inheriting history, that may propagate a different set of merges)
[18:52:58] <Simetrical>	juliano, well, that only applies in the case when you're regularly merging file moves.  That's not common in source control.  It doesn't seem like a staggering flaw to me.
[18:53:10] <Simetrical>	At least not for the practical purpose of maintaining source code.
[18:53:19] <Simetrical>	Whether it adheres to some theoretical ideal is not something of great interest to me.
[18:53:41] <Simetrical>	Have you ever actually copied and deleted in Subversion for the purpose of not merging changes?
[18:53:46] <Simetrical>	Mostly people do it by mistake.
[18:53:47] <juliano>	Yes, I know. Unfortunately, people don't care about it.
[18:53:59] <Simetrical>	If you *really* want to do it in git, you can just do the copy and delete in separate commits.
[18:54:08] <Simetrical>	Why is it unfortunate if, in fact, they don't need it?
[18:54:42] *Simetrical 	gets the impression that he's less idealistic than juliano when it comes to computing tools
[18:55:48] <juliano>	Developers don't need it, well... most of the time... But VCSs can be used for other things
[18:55:57] <juliano>	Filesystem versioning.
[18:56:23] <juliano>	And for that, the concept of inodes (the difference between rename and copy+delete) is very important
[18:56:28] <Simetrical>	Nobody is actually using git to version entire filesystems, so that seems like a rather unpersuasive criticism.
[18:56:45] <juliano>	I'm a man of science... I like to know when things are "correct", for some value of correctness
[18:56:50] <Simetrical>	A more salient problem with git for filesystems is that, e.g., it can't handle large files.
[18:57:02] <juliano>	Simetrical: take a look at the vcs-home mailing list
[18:57:46] <Simetrical>	I'm a mathematician (or at least am applying to grad school in pure math this term).  That doesn't mean I hold it against programs when they aren't good at doing things they were never intended to do.
[18:58:02] <Simetrical>	git is meant to track source code, that's it.  Do you have any objections to it in that regard?
[18:59:11] <juliano>	No. If people understood that git was created to serve Linus and the kernel needs, and stop hyping about it being the *best* VCS, that would be really good. Git is good, for what is was designed for...
[18:59:20] <AaronSchulz>	brion: http://www.theatlasphere.com/columns/081004-sowell-financial-crisis.php
[18:59:31] <AaronSchulz>	interesting read...
[18:59:44] <Simetrical>	juliano, nobody's hyped git for filesystems.  That appears to be your angle.
[18:59:53] <juliano>	For example, git was not designed to run in Windows, still people try that, even though git sucks hard in Windows...
[18:59:55] <Simetrical>	People think it's a great VCS for *source code*.  Nothing more or less.
[19:00:05] <Simetrical>	Well, yeah, that's definitely a legitimate criticism in my book.
[19:00:14] <juliano>	Git was not designed to version filesystems, still, people try putting their home directories in git... etc
[19:00:41] <juliano>	Simetrical: People are really doing git for filesystems, believe you or not
[19:00:48] <Simetrical>	I tried something like that (incremental database backup using git), but wasn't terribly surprised when it failed horribly.
[19:00:55] <Simetrical>	Yes, but they're idiots, they don't count.
[19:01:12] <Simetrical>	Or at least they're idiots if they expect it to work for an entire filesystem.
[19:01:17] <juliano>	Simetrical: Yes, conclusion is that most people are idiot
[19:01:26] <Simetrical>	Rather than some nicely-behaved subset of a filesystem.
[19:01:38] <Simetrical>	I wish I had some tool to version ~, but git isn't it.
[19:01:49] <juliano>	Simetrical: http://jean-francois.richard.name/ghh/git-home-history.html
[19:02:11] <jml75_>	Hi, how can I change a mediawiki password with an sql query from an other php script?
[19:02:20] <Simetrical>	!password
[19:02:20] --mwbot--	I don't know anything about "password". You might try: !passwordreset !passwordsql !secrets 
[19:02:24] <Simetrical>	!passwordsql
[19:02:24] --mwbot--	UPDATE user SET user_password=MD5(CONCAT(user_id, '-', MD5('password'))) WHERE user_name='John_Smith';  This will reset the password for the user with user_name 'John Smith' to 'password'.  Replace 'John_Smith' with the desired username, changing spaces to underscores.
[19:02:30] <Simetrical>	jml75_, ^^
[19:03:13] <Simetrical>	juliano, well, I suppose it's better than the readily-available alternatives for versioning home directories.
[19:03:16] <Simetrical>	That's just not saying much.
[19:03:53] <MZMcBride>	Simetrical: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2796
[19:03:58] <Simetrical>	But it's not exactly fair to leap from "git is bad for versioning something it was never intended to version" to "there is a big ammount of scientific research around VCSs, merge tracking and so... Linus just ignored everything".
[19:04:10] <MZMcBride>	Can you take a look at that again, please? :-)
[19:04:27] <juliano>	Simetrical: From personal experience, fsvs (based on subversion) is better for this job. But it is hard to convince git-enthusiasts that git is *not* a generic VCS, it is an SCM
[19:04:43] <Simetrical>	juliano, in that case I'm not a git enthusiast.
[19:04:57] <juliano>	At least not the orginary one :-)
[19:05:09] <Simetrical>	MZMcBride, has anything changed in the last two years?
[19:05:33] <juliano>	I still miss some distributed VCS that is also generic (like svn)
[19:05:47] <juliano>	And with a sane API... not that monolithic thing that is git
[19:06:02] <MZMcBride>	Simetrical: Well, I was thinking one could annotate the file and see who added the code originally. Or at least see if the code is still there...
[19:06:15] <CIA-6>	03ialex * r41945 10/trunk/extensions/Configure/ (CHANGELOG Configure.php Configure.settings-core.php): Added $wgUniversalEditButton and $wgEdititis
[19:06:17] <Simetrical>	MZMcBride, it's still there.
[19:06:50] <jml75_>	Thanx mwbot!
[19:07:06] <Sean_Colombo>	!thanks
[19:07:06] --mwbot--	you are welcome.
[19:07:12] <Sean_Colombo>	;)
[19:07:14] <jml75_>	But does it make any difference that the feild type is tinyblob?
[19:07:43] <Sean_Colombo>	don't see why it would
[19:07:54] <MZMcBride>	!password | jml75_ 
[19:07:54] --mwbot--	jml75_: I don't know anything about "password". You might try: !passwordreset !passwordsql !secrets 
[19:08:01] <MZMcBride>	Boo, mwbot.
[19:08:10] <MZMcBride>	!password alias passwordreset
[19:08:10] --mwbot--	Successfully added alias: password
[19:08:20] <MZMcBride>	!passwordreset | jml75_ 
[19:08:20] --mwbot--	jml75_: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Password_Reset
[19:08:55] <MZMcBride>	There's a manual page for this. Perhaps I taught mwbot2?
[19:08:58] <MZMcBride>	Grr...
[19:09:25] <Sean_Colombo>	!passwordsql
[19:09:25] --mwbot--	UPDATE user SET user_password=MD5(CONCAT(user_id, '-', MD5('password'))) WHERE user_name='John_Smith';  This will reset the password for the user with user_name 'John Smith' to 'password'.  Replace 'John_Smith' with the desired username, changing spaces to underscores.
[19:11:23] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED) Special pages not being updated on WMF wikis - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15848  +comment (10brion)
[19:11:56] <Simetrical>	jml75_, blobs are just like text fields, mostly.
[19:12:22] <Sean_Colombo>	in mySQL, i believe they are aliases of each other, no?
[19:13:08] <jml75_>	Ok really that simple! Thanx alot for your help, this helped me alot! Have a nice day!
[19:13:21] <Sean_Colombo>	jml75_ you too sir ;)
[19:15:06] <MZMcBride>	Simetrical: Hmm. There seems to be a right or wrong answer here; after two years, you'd think we'd have found it..
[19:15:19] <Simetrical>	MZMcBride, someone just has to make a good case, describing exactly what the rules do.
[19:15:28] <Simetrical>	If anything, I'm inclined to drop them, since they do nothing.
[19:15:44] <Simetrical>	Everyone seems to be fine with how things work now.
[19:15:52] <Simetrical>	But if someone can show that they serve a useful purpose, that's fine too.
[19:16:05] <MZMcBride>	Well, is p-tbx used anywhere anymore?
[19:16:22] <Simetrical>	No.
[19:16:24] <Simetrical>	It never was, AFAIK.
[19:16:33] <wikibugs>	03(mod) make #time work with pre-1970 dates - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11686  (10N/A)
[19:16:45] <MZMcBride>	So isn't the "use as little code as possible" principle in effect here?
[19:16:59] <Simetrical>	You mean "delete the #p-tbx code because it's useless"?
[19:17:12] <MZMcBride>	Yes. That seems reasonable.
[19:17:16] <Simetrical>	Yes, *except* that maybe it would be more useful to make it work for #p-tb as originally intended.
[19:17:22] <Simetrical>	Maybe it would do something useful.
[19:17:27] <Simetrical>	But maybe not.
[19:17:37] <MZMcBride>	And perhaps evaluate the other CSS for deprecated code as well.
[19:17:41] <Simetrical>	All things being equal, I'll just remove the code, it's not like it could do anything too critical.
[19:17:50] <Simetrical>	If someone really cares they can tell me what it does afterwards.
[19:18:00] *MZMcBride 	nods. Sounds good.
[19:18:25] <MZMcBride>	While you're mucking with skins, there's a one-line change that's been open for over three years...
[19:18:43] <MZMcBride>	https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1941 If you're interested.
[19:19:28] <Simetrical>	Hmm, how am I supposed to start a line with # in the commit editor?
[19:19:37] *Simetrical 	supposes he'll start it with " #"
[19:23:33] <CIA-6>	03simetrical * r41946 10/trunk/phase3/skins/monobook/main.css: 
[19:23:33] <CIA-6>	(bug 2796) Remove selector that will never match
[19:23:33] <CIA-6>	#p-tbx has never actually matched anything that I know of: the correct id is
[19:23:33] <CIA-6>	#p-tb. Maybe it would be better to switch the rule to actually apply to #p-tb,
[19:23:33] <CIA-6>	but nobody has actually pointed out what this will do for two years, and for all
[19:23:36] <CIA-6>	I know it will break something. So delete it so the source code matches how it
[19:23:38] <CIA-6>	actually works.
[19:24:58] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED) CSS tag misspelled in monobook/main.css: p-tb - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2796  +comment (10Simetrical+wikibugs)
[19:25:33] <rodaeche>	hello people
[19:26:45] <rodaeche>	How do I set the historial to show the name of the person who did the edition and not his/her id ?
[19:34:47] <turbocucumber>	Can somebody help me find the two lines that are probable a couple of preg_replace() calls that change '' and ''' into <EM> and <STRONG>?
[19:36:04] <Simetrical>	turbocucumber, it's a lot more complicated than a couple of preg_replace()s.  Look in includes/parser/Parser.php.
[19:39:19] <rodaeche>	How do I set the historial to show the name of the person who did the change and not his/her id ??
[19:39:52] <Sean_Colombo>	rodaeche: i wouldn't know for sure, but i don't think that's possible
[19:40:08] <Sean_Colombo>	well... I mean, everything's possible
[19:40:18] <Sean_Colombo>	but i don't think there's a configuration setting or an extension that i know of
[19:40:28] <rodaeche>	Sean_Colombo: I think it is possible, because before it was that way
[19:40:54] <rodaeche>	the historial showed the name of the person whom made changes to the articles
[19:41:03] <rodaeche>	now it shows just the id
[19:41:23] <Sean_Colombo>	can you link me to a page to show me what you're seeing right now?
[19:41:58] <Platonides>	rodaeche, which config variable was it?
[19:42:15] <rodaeche>	cant tell you that
[19:42:25] <rodaeche>	i dont know really, somebody maybe changed that 
[19:42:31] <rodaeche>	but he dont remember 
[19:42:32] <rodaeche>	:S
[19:42:40] <rodaeche>	so we are stucked trying to look at it
[19:43:25] <Sean_Colombo>	rodaeche: i can think of two ways to fix this...
[19:43:41] <rodaeche>	im all ears
[19:43:47] <lch>	can I add a site notification box to the Login screen somehow?
[19:43:51] <Sean_Colombo>	1) show us your LocalSettings.php (please remove any passwords) and we'll look for something that jumps out at us
[19:44:03] <Sean_Colombo>	2) upgrade MediaWiki because maybe they changed the code itself
[19:44:51] <CIA-6>	03dale * r41947 10/trunk/extensions/MetavidWiki/maintenance/ (metavid2mvWiki.inc.php metavid_gov_templates.php): maintenance updates
[19:44:56] <rodaeche>	where can i send my LocalSettings.php 
[19:45:24] <wikibugs>	03(mod)  #ifexist parser function returns false for image pages from shared repository (Commons) - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7985  (10hugo.lpz)
[19:45:38] <Sean_Colombo>	http://pastie.org
[19:45:46] <Sean_Colombo>	rodaeche: http://pastie.org
[19:45:52] <Sean_Colombo>	then send a link :)
[19:50:46] <CIA-6>	03dale * r41948 10/trunk/extensions/MetavidWiki/maintenance/metavid2mvWiki.inc.php: minor maintenance update fix
[19:53:18] <rodaeche>	Sean_Colombo: ok man, im on that
[19:59:21] <wikibugs>	03(mod)  #ifexist parser function returns false for image pages from shared repository (Commons) - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7985  (10mikelifeguard)
[20:02:58] <wikibugs>	03(mod)  #ifexist parser function returns false for image pages from shared repository (Commons) - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7985  +comment (10Platonides)
[20:12:22] <rodaeche>	Sean_Colombo: hey man, you there?
[20:16:48] <rodaeche>	Sean_Colombo: there is the code http://pastie.org/289661
[20:17:07] <Sean_Colombo>	back
[20:23:01] <rodaeche>	Sean_Colombo: here is the link http://pastie.org/289661
[20:23:07] <rodaeche>	please, let me know =)
[20:23:27] <Sean_Colombo>	rodaeche: there is only one thing in that file that looks like it might do something like what you're seeing
[20:23:41] <Sean_Colombo>	if you comment out "require_once("extensions/AccessControl.php");
[20:23:49] <rodaeche>	Sean_Colombo: juhmmm what could it be?
[20:23:52] <Sean_Colombo>	"... then re-upload, does it still do the same thing?
[20:24:09] <rodaeche>	ok ill see
[20:24:13] <rodaeche>	gimme a minute
[20:29:41] <rodaeche>	still the same
[20:29:46] <Sean_Colombo>	hmm
[20:29:51] <Sean_Colombo>	what version of MediaWiki are you running>
[20:30:24] <rodaeche>	vr. 1.11.0
[20:30:29] <Sean_Colombo>	hmm
[20:30:31] <Sean_Colombo>	okay...
[20:30:59] <Sean_Colombo>	i'm not a total expert, but i have a decent grasp on this... i _think_ that it sounds like someone changed something in the code itself
[20:31:23] <Sean_Colombo>	so if you upgraded to version 1.13.2 or even just replaced your code with the 1.11.0 code again, I think your problem would go away
[20:32:01] <CIA-6>	03ialex * r41949 10/trunk/extensions/PlayerStatsGrabber/flow_player/flashembed.min.js: svn:eol-style native
[20:34:41] <wikibugs>	03(mod)  #ifexist parser function returns false for image pages from shared repository (Commons) - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7985  (10hugo.lpz)
[20:35:59] <Sean_Colombo>	rodaeche - alternatively, if you keep your code in SVN or another versioning system, you could look for recent changes to files (probably in the "includes" folder) to try to find it.
[20:38:58] <rodaeche>	Sean_Colombo: yup, im on it.... if i find something 'weird' i let you know, anyway, thanks for the help =D
[20:39:11] <Sean_Colombo>	rodaeche: no problem.  have a nice day :)
[20:42:53] <CIA-6>	03aaron * r41950 10/trunk/phase3/includes/RecentChange.php: remove unused var
[21:39:56] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Recreate checkbox in Nostalgia appears in the same line as the edit box - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15933 15enhancement; normal; MediaWiki: User interface; (nsk)
[21:40:49] <wikibugs>	03(mod)  Recreate checkbox in Nostalgia appears in the same line as the edit box - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15933  15enhancement->trivial (10nsk)
[21:44:49] <lch>	how come that my MediaWiki installation replaces </dd> and </dt> tags, but not their opening tags <dd> and <dt> ?
[21:45:34] <Splarka>	'replaces' or 'escapes'?
[21:45:47] <Splarka>	and are you closing them in the right order? are you using them via transclusion?
[21:46:42] <wikibugs>	03(mod)  Nostalgia has a trailing | in link lines which perhaps should not be there - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15928  (10nsk)
[21:51:36] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Sidebar doesn't exist in Nostalgia skin - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10794  +comment (10nsk)
[22:03:12] <Premia>	hello, there seems to be an error in our mediawiki script, because our error logfile has an entry for every second. that's why our wiki crashes very often
[22:03:37] <Premia>	last 10 entries of our error logfile:
[22:03:39] <Premia>	http://rafb.net/p/QwDY7p98.html
[22:03:44] <Premia>	can somebody help, please?
[22:04:30] <Platonides>	Premia, do you have that index.php file?
[22:06:10] <wikibugs>	03(mod) [PATCH] Nostalgia skin has no user pages links - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15868  (10nsk)
[22:06:17] <Premia>	Platonides, there is no index.php in our root directory. what kind of index.php is mediawiki looking for? any idea?
[22:11:02] <CIA-6>	03dale * r41951 10/trunk/extensions/MetavidWiki/ (3 files in 2 dirs): lose matching, nickname lookup for autocomplete
[22:13:44] <Premia>	Platonides, our root directory is /www/. in /www/wiki there is an index.php, of course. but in /www/ there is no index.php. i don't know why mediawiki is looking for /www/index.php
[22:20:13] <CIA-6>	03mrzman * r41952 10/trunk/phase3/ (RELEASE-NOTES includes/parser/Parser.php): Adding file cache to the parser to improve rendering time on pages with several uses of the same image; designed with input from Brion and Tim. Cache size is limited to 1000.
[22:20:51] <brion>	woot
[22:23:55] <crucially>	1000 images
[22:24:03] <crucially>	on one page?
[22:24:26] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED) Parser should cache repeated images on the same page - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15919  -need-review -patch ; +comment (10mrzmanwiki)
[22:26:09] <brion>	crucially: if wikipedians can do it, they will do it!
[22:27:32] <crucially>	 http://darth.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Notable_Human_males_named_Jax_Pavan
[22:27:49] <crucially>	someone started creating Jax_Pavan page for every Jax_Pavan on  on Coruscant
[22:28:01] <crucially>	there apparently  582,797,754 of them
[22:28:28] <brion>	rofl
[22:29:35] <pryorda>	how do i change the default <pre> formatting
[22:29:43] <crucially>	brion: funnny for you 
[22:29:43] <crucially>	:)
[22:29:44] <pryorda>	or how do i create a formatting tag
[22:29:56] <crucially>	I got asked the question "would this cause any problems?"
[22:31:22] <Splarka>	pryorda: formatting? the internal formatting or the style of the object?
[22:32:04] <Splarka>	brion: http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/1000_images
[22:32:28] <brion>	hah
[22:32:29] <pryorda>	I wanna format how <pre> looks
[22:32:37] <pryorda>	like when i do the pre tag
[22:32:42] <pryorda>	i want to change it to
[22:32:54] <Splarka>	pryorda: site-wide CSS or inline style
[22:33:12] <Splarka>	<pre style="border:1px solid red;> la la la </pre>
[22:33:16] <pryorda>	yeah
[22:33:18] <Splarka>	or for default, say... go to MediaWiki:Common.css
[22:33:19] <pryorda>	thats what im doing
[22:33:19] <pryorda>	:)
[22:33:23] <Splarka>	pre {border:1px solid red;}
[22:33:23] <pryorda>	but i wanna just type
[22:34:19] <Splarka>	that'll affect space-prefixed pre as well as <pre>
[22:34:21] <pryorda>	ah its in common.css
[22:34:39] <pryorda>	so it my inturn change the layout of
[22:34:42] <Splarka>	well, it can be in MediaWiki:Monobook.css if you only want to change it on that skin
[22:34:46] <pryorda>	pryorda.net
[22:34:51] <pryorda>	okay
[22:34:52] <pryorda>	thanks
[22:34:54] <pryorda>	doc.pryorda.net
[22:34:57] <Splarka>	hmm, 1024 same image, <!-- Served by srv35 in 6.253 secs. -->
[22:34:58] <pryorda>	is my wiki im working on
[22:35:24] <Splarka>	5.990077   1026 - Parser::replaceInternalLinks2, 5.554626   1024 - Parser::replaceInternalLinks2-image...
[22:37:52] <pryorda>	Splarka: thanks for the mediawiki shit
[22:38:00] <pryorda>	common is used by all themese or what
[22:38:01] <pryorda>	?
[22:38:11] <Splarka>	yes
[22:38:12] <pryorda>	or is common a theme
[22:38:15] <pryorda>	okay
[22:38:16] <pryorda>	nvm
[22:38:20] <pryorda>	i will edit common then
[22:38:27] <Splarka>	that is, the page called [[MediaWiki:Common.css]], not a file
[22:38:40] <pryorda>	i know
[22:38:41] <pryorda>	:)
[22:38:43] <pryorda>	hehe
[22:38:48] <Splarka>	k, some people get confused on that point
[22:39:05] <pryorda>	some people its a file on the file system?
[22:39:11] <Splarka>	brion: http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/10000_images  haha
[22:40:42] <pryorda>	pre1 { border: 1pt solid #3C78b5; background: #f6f6f6; width: 600px }
[22:40:45] <pryorda>	that correct?
[22:40:47] <Splarka>	pryorda: many people are used to the idea of css always being directly inline or as a separate file on their webserver, not one generated from a database query
[22:40:57] <Splarka>	pre { border: 1pt solid #3C78b5; background: #f6f6f6; width: 600px }
[22:41:03] <pryorda>	i want it to be pre1
[22:41:07] <Splarka>	pre1 would be <pre1>
[22:41:10] <Splarka>	and there is no such tag
[22:41:14] <Splarka>	well, you can't
[22:41:16] <pryorda>	thats so that pre one is just a default
[22:41:18] <pryorda>	and then
[22:41:19] <Splarka>	what are you trying to do?
[22:41:20] <pryorda>	<pre1>
[22:41:22] <pryorda>	will do it
[22:41:25] <Splarka>	well, you can't
[22:41:25] <pryorda>	i will link you
[22:41:40] <Splarka>	even if you could do <pre1> it wouldn't be pre1 in the css, as that isn't a valid html/xml tag
[22:41:54] <pryorda>	ah
[22:41:57] <pryorda>	Shoot
[22:41:59] <pryorda>	heh
[22:42:02] <Splarka>	<pre1> would have to generate something like <pre class="type1">
[22:42:12] <Splarka>	which you can do, but maybe just try classing manually
[22:42:18] <Splarka>	<pre class="type1">
[22:42:21] <pryorda>	yep
[22:42:24] <Splarka>	and then in css:
[22:42:25] <pryorda>	thats what i want
[22:42:28] <Splarka>	pre.type1 { border: 1pt solid #3C78b5; background: #f6f6f6; width: 600px }
[22:42:38] <pryorda>	Im not familar with css heh
[22:42:46] <Splarka>	and later you can make a tag extension that parses <pre1> to <pre class="type1">
[22:42:49] <Splarka>	ahh
[22:43:12] <pryorda>	How could i create a tag extention
[22:43:12] <pryorda>	?
[22:43:18] <Splarka>	pre   <-- tag <pre>, .foo <-- class="foo", #bar  <-- id="bar"
[22:43:37] <pryorda>	i understand simple stuff
[22:43:44] <Pinky>	hmm
[22:43:44] <Splarka>	http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Tag_extensions
[22:43:47] <Pinky>	<!-- Served by srv35 in 0.166 secs. -->
[22:43:52] <Pinky>	on that 10000 images page
[22:43:55] <Splarka>	Pinky: cached
[22:43:57] <Splarka>	try action=purge
[22:44:00] <Pinky>	ah
[22:44:08] <Splarka>	and/or forceprofile=true
[22:44:22] <Splarka>	&makedomasangry=youbet
[22:44:28] <Pinky>	:D
[22:45:17] <Mike_lifeguard>	heh
[22:45:30] <lch>	<Splarka> 'replaces' or 'escapes'? <== I meant escapes, it does escape </dd> and </dt> tags
[22:45:43] <lch>	but it doesn't escape <dd> and <dt> tags
[22:45:55] <pryorda>	heh
[22:46:05] <pryorda>	the class is simpler then tag
[22:46:06] <pryorda>	heh
[22:46:28] <Splarka>	lch: it is probably closing them then, and ignoring your attempt to close them
[22:47:10] <Pinky>	<!-- Served by srv35 in 51.027 secs. -->
[22:47:11] <Pinky>	lol
[22:47:27] <Splarka>	ouch, that's about the limit then ^_^
[22:47:29] <Mike_lifeguard>	why is there commented-out js for dismissable sitenotice in the source?
[22:48:17] <Splarka>	page source? and you mean <!-- --> commented?
[22:48:25] <Splarka>	html comments don't affect javascript
[22:48:47] <Splarka>	lch: <dl><dd>foo</dd></dl> gives <dl><dd>foo</dd></dl> for me, how about you?
[22:49:36] <S-i-A>	hi
[22:49:38] <lch>	Splarka, <dl><dd>foo&lt;/dd&gt;</dl>
[22:49:49] <Splarka>	lch: very odd, tidy enabled?
[22:50:01] <S-i-A>	how can i allow edit option just for regestred user?
[22:50:08] <pryorda>	Splarka: how come i cant do
[22:50:16] <pryorda>	pre.1
[22:50:18] <Splarka>	!access | S-i-A
[22:50:18] --mwbot--	S-i-A: For information on customizing user access, see <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:User_rights>. For common examples of restricting access using both rights and extensions, see <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Preventing_access>.
[22:50:24] <pryorda>	<pre class="1"?
[22:50:26] <pryorda>	>**
[22:50:29] <Splarka>	pryorda: classes can't start with numbers, IIRC
[22:50:37] <pryorda>	Okay
[22:50:41] <lch>	Splarka, not that I know of, but still using 1.12
[22:50:42] <Splarka>	<pre class="p1">
[22:50:46] <Mike_lifeguard>	Splarka: oh, I didn't know that
[22:50:51] <pryorda>	Maybe I need to read a basic tutorial on it
[22:50:55] <Mike_lifeguard>	thanks then
[22:51:01] <Splarka>	lch: I've seen that before, on Wikia, back in 1.7 or so, when they tried to enable tidy
[22:51:04] <pryorda>	csss that is
[22:51:04] <Splarka>	they finally just disabled it
[22:51:21] <Splarka>	Mike_lifeguard: I believ eit is backwards compat with very very old pre-javascript browsers
[22:51:24] <pryorda>	Any reasons not to allow .jpg
[22:51:25] <pryorda>	?
[22:51:37] <Splarka>	that would not ignore the contents of a <script> tag, but try to render it, if it was in the <body> tag
[22:51:40] <pryorda>	well uploading
[22:51:41] <S-i-A>	and how can i active syntaxhighlighting?
[22:51:52] <Mike_lifeguard>	ahh, k
[22:51:52] <Splarka>	S-i-A: is an extension
[22:52:05] <pryorda>	Splarka: hehe
[22:52:13] <pryorda>	you must be the support guy around here
[22:52:29] <Splarka>	S-i-A: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Syntax_Highlighting
[22:52:49] <Splarka>	pryorda: I came here 3 years ago and asked a question, or for some help
[22:52:53] <Splarka>	still haven't gotten it yet
[22:52:54] <skierpage>	I'm making my own table but I want to reuse class="smwtable" from /extensions/SemanticMediaWiki/skins/SMW_custom.css.  Can I get a page to output a CSS link?
[22:53:05] <pryorda>	Splarka: lol
[22:53:15] <Mike_lifeguard>	S-i-A: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SyntaxHighlight_GeSHi
[22:53:15] <pryorda>	dude thats the same reason i chill in FreeBSD
[22:53:19] <pryorda>	I love BSD so yeah
[22:53:21] <pryorda>	:)
[22:53:29] <Mike_lifeguard>	aww, too slow
[22:54:04] <skierpage>	Semantic MediaWiki is very smart about not emitting a CSS <link> unless it really outputs the table itself, so I have to fake it out.
[22:54:38] <Splarka>	pryorda: jpg is pretty common, no reason to disable it, it is much better than png for truecolor photorealistic compression (and more supported, if lossy)
[22:55:00] <pryorda>	well i ment upload
[22:55:03] <Splarka>	skierpage: you could put an @import in your site CSS... unless you want it to only be on certain pages?
[22:55:25] <pryorda>	Does the upload engine and file reader read the images correctly or could it be sploited 
[22:55:27] <skierpage>	Splarka, it's just on this one page.
[22:56:00] <Splarka>	hmm, there are extensions that do add <link> and <style>... might be a bit overheady though, just for one page
[22:56:18] <Splarka>	could use javascript importStylesheetURI() too.. after pagename check (bit dirty)
[22:56:51] <Splarka>	if(wgPageName == 'whatever') importStylesheetURI('/extensions/SemanticMediaWiki/skins/SMW_custom.css');
[22:56:59] <pryorda>	Splarka: thanks for the quick responses
[22:57:01] <skierpage>	Splarka, right.  I guess I could just copy all the CSS definitions into my {| table start.  Or, I could let SMW output a tiny table but put it in a CSS invisible.
[22:57:04] <pryorda>	I appriciate it
[22:57:06] <pryorda>	:)
[22:57:18] <Splarka>	rar
[22:57:39] <skierpage>	Splarka, I need to make the link to CSS from the page's wiki markup, no PHP
[22:57:54] <Splarka>	ahh, so no extension
[22:58:00] <Splarka>	then you can't do it inline
[22:58:23] <Splarka>	the problem with styling tables inline is you have to style each th, tr, td
[22:58:36] <Splarka>	suggest the JS solution
[22:58:40] <skierpage>	Splarka you are indeed awesom-o
[22:58:44] <Splarka>	edit MediaWiki:Common.js
[22:58:54] <pryorda>	he is
[22:58:55] <pryorda>	:0
[22:58:56] <pryorda>	Peace
[22:58:58] <pryorda>	:)
[22:58:59] <Splarka>	[citation needed]
[22:59:15] <Splarka>	pryorda: probably depends on OS, no system is completely safe from exploits
[22:59:16] <skierpage>	Splarka, http://images.southparkstudios.com/media/video/802/IAMAWESOMOM.mov
[22:59:35] <Splarka>	nobody really thought jpegs could contain viruses on a widespread scale until Microsoft proved it
[23:03:36] <lch>	Splarka, maybe I could add these tags to the "safe HTML" tags? because the wiki has no problem with <b> and <strike> tags
[23:04:13] <Splarka>	dl/dd/dt should all be whitelisted in Sanitizer.php already
[23:05:23] <Splarka>	Mike_lifeguard: btw, the dismissable sitenotice in the <body> is a horrible travesty. It should be in the <head> as a single line with one or two variables, calling a separate .js from /skins/common (or even added to wikibits.js)
[23:06:15] <lch>	hmm, they are, but they're in "$htmlsingle"
[23:06:17] <Splarka>	<script>var siteNoticeID = "2.1"; var siteNoticeValue = "\x3cp\x3eCurious? Log out and view the l33t anon-user notice.\n\x3c/p\x3e";</script><script type="text/javascript" src="/skins-1.5/common/dismissablesitenotice.js?179"></script>
[23:06:32] <Mike_lifeguard>	I thought you said it was done that way for BC?
[23:06:44] <Splarka>	BC?
[23:06:59] <lch>	jup, htmlsingle is the problem
[23:07:14] <Mike_lifeguard>	backwards compatibility
[23:07:24] <Mike_lifeguard>	for old browsers
[23:07:25] <Splarka>	Mike_lifeguard: ahh, no I mean...
[23:07:36] <Splarka>	if you have <script> in the <body> then you're supposed to have <!--
[23:07:39] <Splarka>	if you don't, then you don't
[23:07:51] <Splarka>	you don't _need_ <script> in the <body>
[23:07:55] <Mike_lifeguard>	oh, ok
[23:07:56] <Splarka>	I am not sure why it is done that way actually
[23:08:01] <Splarka>	probably lazy programmers
[23:08:06] <Mike_lifeguard>	then that is probably easily fixed
[23:08:09] <Splarka>	I'd mention them by name but they're busy 
[23:08:13] <Splarka>	heh
[23:08:20] <Splarka>	well, sure, and it's probably easily ignored too
[23:08:39] <Splarka>	lch: it is single in wmf trunk too and works fine
[23:08:41] <MrZ-man>	Splarka: and you'd flood the channel
[23:08:43] <Splarka>	but maybe tidy overrides it
[23:08:49] <Mike_lifeguard>	that too :D
[23:08:59] <Splarka>	MrZ-man: am I talking too much? heh
[23:09:12] <lch>	how can I know if I have tidy activated, and how can I disable it?
[23:09:23] <Splarka>	tidy = good, except when it isn't
[23:10:07] <Splarka>	it breaks as much as it fixes for some established wikis, it is basically a slightly different flavor
[23:12:27] <lch>	Splarka, curiously, li is in $htmlsingle and not in $htmlsingleonly, too, and </li> isn't being replaced
[23:13:05] <Splarka>	lch: something is odd in your installation then! call a priest
[23:13:54] <Splarka>	lch: $wgUseTidy ?
[23:13:55] <lch>	but there's an extra $listtags array, I'll look if something was done for definition lists, too
[23:19:35] <lch>	I "fixed" this by moving dt and dd from $htmlsingle to $htmlpairs now, even if it's a hack *shrug*
[23:45:50] <lch>	my Wiki doesn't do this coloring of references / ref-links when you click on them like Wikipedia does, how is it added?
[23:45:57] <lch>	I couldn't find it in any CSS
[23:50:04] <DarkoNeko>	check the mediawiki:common.css page on wikipedia, and coy the appropriate code on your own wiki, same page
[23:57:15] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Greater flexibility with references - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5997  (10bugs)
[23:59:39] <Splarka>	lch, the :target attribute
[23:59:41] <Splarka>	sneeky that