[00:02:45] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Special:GlobalBlock/127.0.0.1 should load current block settings if already blocked - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18396 normal; Normal; MediaWiki extensions: GlobalBlocking; (mikelifeguard)
[00:06:29] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Add suppressredirect right to importer group - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18397 enhancement; Normal; Wikimedia: Site requests; (federicoleva)
[00:06:31] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Allow import to different page name - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6808  (10federicoleva)
[00:06:33] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Initial letter case choice in transwiki import - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9943  (10federicoleva)
[00:14:12] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Test implementation of FlaggedRevs for the English Wikipedia - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18334  (10techman224)
[00:15:29] <sammich>	brion: Can you peek at that? ^
[00:16:04] <JoaoR>	Can someone tell why these naxboxes have limits, padding and need the title paramenter filled: http://pt.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Usu%C3%A1rio:JohnR/Navbox_with_collapsible_groups&oldid=14856615
[00:19:07] <simonrvn>	meh. had to temporarily allow superuser and catalog access for my wiki user...
[00:19:10] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Remove abusefilter log type - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18368  (10agarrett)
[00:41:24] <pschloss>	trying to get TeX to work on a wiki running off of Mac OS X 10.5 server
[00:42:08] <pschloss>	i'm getting "Failed to parse (PNG conversion failed; check for correct installation of latex, dvips, gs, and convert): 0" for <math>0</math>
[00:42:28] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) {{SECTIONNUMBER}} - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18398 enhancement; Normal; MediaWiki: General/Unknown; (wpuser)
[00:42:32] <pschloss>	everything seems to be installed via fink...
[00:43:57] <pschloss>	the discussions on the mediawiki site don't seem very helpful, anyone have any good suggestions?
[01:11:00] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Log below the form on Special:RevisionDelete for logs is ludicrously long - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18345  +comment (10mikelifeguard)
[01:12:35] <Mike_lifeguard>	Aaron|away: When you have a moment, could you please provide insight on bug 18345?
[01:37:05] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) include path wrong - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18399 trivial; Normal; MediaWiki extensions: NewestPages; (jidanni)
[01:37:29] <wikibugs>	03(mod) include path wrong - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18399   +patch (10jidanni)
[01:39:48] <CIA-78>	03werdna * r49300 10/branches/preferences-work/phase3/includes/ (AutoLoader.php DefaultPreferences.php Preferences.php): Change DefaultPreferences class to Preferences -- there's nothing default about it.
[01:43:35] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Create approved Finnish Wikiversity [fi] (January 2009) - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16977  +comment (10hillgentleman)
[01:46:36] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Keep simplifed Chinese characters out of zh-tw please - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17794  (10jidanni)
[01:47:30] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Create approved Finnish Wikiversity [fi] (January 2009) - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16977  (10hillgentleman)
[01:56:46] <werdna>	hey any opinions on a good UI for preferences?
[01:57:05] *werdna 	pokes brion, Simetrical, carl-m, and a few others for opinions
[01:57:42] <Skizzerz>	I think the UI is pretty good... the code that creates it however is not :P
[01:57:53] <werdna>	I'm already rewriting that code
[01:58:02] <werdna>	well the UI is most of all totally inconsistent
[01:59:06] <werdna>	some places we use tables, other places we use fieldsets, etc
[01:59:21] <Skizzerz>	hmm
[01:59:29] <Skizzerz>	I suppose I've never really looked at the HTML side of it before
[02:00:07] <werdna>	compare "date and time" tab to "search" tab, and then to all the others
[02:02:45] <Skizzerz>	hmm
[02:03:02] <Skizzerz>	this is quickly escaping my limited knowledge of web design
[02:03:07] <sammich>	werdna: The Change Password link looks incredibly awkward in its own <h2>.
[02:03:20] <werdna>	yeah, some others have said that too
[02:03:25] <werdna>	will fix that up
[02:03:31] <werdna>	also, I'm going to reorganise some of it
[02:03:38] <werdna>	some of the sections and placement is downright weird
[02:03:53] <Skizzerz>	skin preview thumbnails would be cool
[02:04:02] <Skizzerz>	but no idea of how to accomplish that in a nice manner
[02:04:10] <Prodego>	sammich: beat you to it: 	<Prodego>	also the "Change password" section looks silly
[02:04:22] <Prodego>	at 2:48
[02:04:23] <sammich>	I said it when Mr.Z-man implemented it.
[02:04:30] <werdna>	I want to break out the "Misc" section, too
[02:04:35] <Prodego>	curses, foiled again
[02:04:40] <werdna>	there's a whole bunch of toggles there that really ought to be categorised
[02:04:47] <sammich>	werdna: Oh, 'nother thing. The reset all button needs a confirmation box.
[02:05:09] <sammich>	There's an open bug about that.
[02:05:10] <werdna>	02:10 < Prodego> werdna: restore default button sux
[02:05:11] <werdna>	02:10 < Prodego> once you hit that there should be a confirm screen
[02:05:11] <werdna>	02:10 < Prodego> it shouldn't just do it
[02:05:19] <werdna>	I'll sort that out
[02:05:23] <werdna>	feel free to assign the bug to me
[02:06:00] <Prodego>	werdna: FTR, I also agree with anything else sammich may come up with, before he does
[02:06:07] <werdna>	heh
[02:06:39] <sammich>	agarrett ?
[02:06:44] <sammich>	Is that the e-mail you use now?
[02:07:15] <werdna>	yes
[02:07:19] <werdna>	agarrett@wikimedia.org
[02:07:36] <wikibugs>	03(mod) "Restore all default settings" needs confirmation dialog - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17188  (10public)
[02:07:38] <werdna>	well, it's the email I use for wikimedia stuff
[02:07:50] <sammich>	That should say (ASSIGNED). :P
[02:08:00] <werdna>	bah
[02:08:15] <werdna>	no it shouldn't
[02:08:23] <werdna>	status is still new
[02:08:25] <wikibugs>	03(ASSIGNED) "Restore all default settings" needs confirmation dialog - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17188  (10agarrett)
[02:08:29] <werdna>	NOW it says assigned
[02:09:06] *sammich 	wonders the hell he did the first time...
[02:09:42] <werdna>	You changed the assignee
[02:09:58] <werdna>	the point is that it resets to NEW if you assign it to me
[02:09:58] <werdna>	so it appears on my list
[02:10:28] <werdna>	Then if I'm satisfied that it's a bug, I change it to ASSIGNED, so I've sighted it and I know it's there
[02:12:10] <werdna>	it's a workflow thing
[02:12:22] <sammich>	Bugzilla + workflow == lulz.
[02:13:03] <werdna>	I know I at least treat bugzilla as a kind of todo list
[02:13:38] <werdna>	http://➡.ws/퇃 <--
[02:14:29] <sammich>	Fun. :-)
[02:14:42] <sammich>	"Search needed" ...
[02:14:51] <werdna>	It's been much longer since abusefilter was deployed
[02:14:53] <werdna>	used to be only a few
[02:15:27] <sammich>	Damn you and your follow-up comments! <werdna> It's been much longer since abusefilter was deployed <-- That's what she said.
[02:15:40] <wikibugs>	03(mod) AJAX Search on abuse filter list - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18296  summary; +comment (10agarrett)
[02:15:41] <werdna>	heh
[02:16:42] <wikibugs>	03(ASSIGNED) A hook to enable putting options to the preferences tab - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14806  +comment (10agarrett)
[02:18:24] <wikibugs>	03(WONTFIX) Remove abusefilter log type - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18368  (10agarrett)
[02:18:50] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED) Please Activate AbuseFilter on zh wp - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18301  +comment (10agarrett)
[02:19:40] <wikibugs>	03(ASSIGNED) Allow restriction by page for AbuseFilter batch testing - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18287  summary (10agarrett)
[02:20:10] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED) AbuseLog and testing interfaces should normalize user names - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18286  (10agarrett)
[02:27:36] <sammich>	Wheee.
[02:30:14] <Splarka>	hmm, https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18398 is just different enough from https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12434 (number, not name) and https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1605 (origin section, not current section) to be annoying
[02:32:21] <Splarka>	different from https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9240  and https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9239 too, meh
[03:09:38] <kavinkankeshwar>	how to embed a pdf in a wiki page?
[03:09:46] <kavinkankeshwar>	internal wiki
[03:13:38] <Splarka>	as pdf or png?
[03:16:51] <Splarka>	http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Embed_Document  might be what you wan
[03:22:46] <prefrontal>	dangit ,that makes the flashpaper i recently developed irrelevant!
[03:22:59] <prefrontal>	from now on i should consult splarka's infinite wisdom first..
[03:23:49] <Splarka>	flashpaper?
[03:23:58] <Splarka>	that uberflammable stuff magicians use?
[03:24:56] <prefrontal>	oh my thing is better than this ^_^
[03:25:11] <Splarka>	yah, all that does is embed it
[03:25:12] <prefrontal>	i used pdf2swf
[03:25:17] <Splarka>	ew
[03:25:30] <prefrontal>	pretty sure thats what Scribe et al. do
[03:25:35] <prefrontal>	in general
[03:25:36] <Splarka>	only thing worse than pdf is flash
[03:26:29] <prefrontal>	hmm, i disagree. with flashpaper you can get a dynamic full-document preview thats fast and doesn't cause you to leave the page
[03:27:16] <prefrontal>	i suppose if i say that I used ogg, which doesn't make any sense, i would be cheered
[03:27:30] <Splarka>	accessability, linkability, portability, saveability, reusability, licensing
[03:27:55] <Splarka>	why not just spit it out as png or html
[03:28:22] <prefrontal>	you could. i just reupload it to the wiki as a swf alongside the original file for previewing purposes (on demand)
[03:28:44] <prefrontal>	have you seen google's html pdf previews? they suck
[03:28:54] <prefrontal>	if the pdf is complicated at all pdf2html does not work
[03:29:22] <Splarka>	pdf does not belong on the web, but there are useful applications for it, like distributing or generating documents for printing
[03:29:32] <prefrontal>	i do like the png idea
[03:29:34] <Splarka>	swf just does not belong on the web, sadly that is the only place it is useful
[03:30:11] <Splarka>	random totally biased opinion about it: http://immike.net/blog/2007/07/31/flash-sucks/
[03:31:14] <prefrontal>	well, in academia the standard for digital publishing is pdf, and i run a wiki-based bibliography manager
[03:32:02] <prefrontal>	but i'm not sure i agree flash sucks, several of the items in your list don't seem relevant
[03:32:14] <Splarka>	rebuttal?
[03:34:35] <prefrontal>	9/10 accessible, 3/10 linkable, 10/10 portable, 4/10 saveable, 10/10 reusable, 0/10 remixable, 0/10 open source, 10/10 licensing
[03:34:48] <prefrontal>	(everything you create in flash can be freely licensed)
[03:35:06] <Splarka>	> Sure, Adobe provides the SWF and FLV Specifications to developers who want to create Flash content. But first you have to agree to the SWF File Format Specification License where you promise that you will �not use the Specification in any way to create or develop a runtime, client, player, executable or other program that reads or renders SWF files.� That sucks.
[03:35:31] <prefrontal>	that would damage their business model, pretty reasonable request
[03:36:05] <Splarka>	there is the problem there, "business model"
[03:36:35] <prefrontal>	without a business model flash would be gnash
[03:36:46] <prefrontal>	(it would suck)
[03:37:00] <Splarka>	it already does suck, can't really suck more
[03:37:10] <Splarka>	(well, they're working on it sucking more...)
[03:37:15] <prefrontal>	flash is very sophisticated software
[03:37:35] <Splarka>	another reason it doesn't belong on the web
[03:39:02] <prefrontal>	i'm pretty sure the definition of the web is more about network topology than content. there will always be tools like flash and silverlight on the web since the web supports free markets by its open specification
[03:39:58] <Splarka>	well, let me clarify
[03:40:25] <Splarka>	flash does not belong on websites as primary content, except where the website exists for such content
[03:40:34] <Splarka>	youtube: yah, sure, that is their business model
[03:40:53] <wikibugs>	03(mod) AJAX Search on abuse filter list - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18296  +comment (10FT2.wiki)
[03:40:57] <werdna>	I WOULD like a more open version of flash, because it's kinda powerful
[03:41:00] <Splarka>	a web-based online store using flash for everything from the catalog to menus (especially with no fallback): no
[03:41:29] <werdna>	I guess scripted SVG is getting ghere
[03:41:34] <werdna>	but I haven't played with it much
[03:41:43] <prefrontal>	supposedly javascript+svg is the new flash
[03:41:59] <werdna>	haven't touched it up properly yet
[03:42:09] <prefrontal>	starting to see more talk of 3d drawing libraries in javascript
[03:42:31] <werdna>	Trev's working on one
[03:42:42] <Splarka>	ideally everything on the web would be plain text open source, unencumbered by patents and proprietary licensing agreements, but people claim that suppresses innovation
[03:42:52] <Splarka>	html + js + svg is sorta-that
[03:45:06] <prefrontal>	i wonder if flash can be rewritten in javascript theoretically
[03:45:23] <werdna>	in theory sure
[03:45:26] <werdna>	in practice, no wtf?
[03:45:35] <werdna>	actually some stuff couldn't be written
[03:45:38] <werdna>	webcam capture and so on
[03:47:35] <prefrontal>	w.r.t suppressing innovation, open source is surprisingly competetive
[03:48:01] <prefrontal>	within any given software space you can expect to find multiple very good solutions
[03:48:39] <Splarka>	so why can't anyone but adobe write an alternative renderer plugin for SWF?
[03:48:41] <prefrontal>	but in places like flash it can't compete with the market forces
[03:49:28] <prefrontal>	its really about the number of users. why would someone pay 1 billion dollars for twitter when the tech could be rewritten in a month?
[03:49:55] <prefrontal>	supposing gnash was could it wouldn't matter that much..
[03:49:58] <prefrontal>	*was good
[03:50:43] <prefrontal>	interesting what IBM has done with openoffice to make it a viable competitor to word. put some serious cash behind it in the form of full time developers plus free branding
[03:52:04] <prefrontal>	http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS2317373950.html
[03:53:33] <prefrontal>	someday there might be a demand for a really good open source rich content delivery platform
[03:53:51] <prefrontal>	not yet..
[03:53:52] <werdna>	hey AaronSchulz 
[03:54:47] <Splarka>	the thing is, flash is a plugin, optional, proprietary, and centralized
[03:54:59] <Splarka>	but too many websites treat it as a standard and even required part of any web browser, that sucks
[03:55:15] <Splarka>	it would be like everyone being forced to only IM over skype
[03:55:44] <prefrontal>	ok, suppose flash is open sourced and all future browsers include it
[03:55:48] <prefrontal>	bam, problem solved
[03:55:58] <prefrontal>	bye bye lynx
[03:56:00] <Splarka>	yah, good luck with that
[03:57:08] <prefrontal>	HTML 5 supports rich content through ogg, what might HTML 6 support, and 7?
[03:57:12] <Splarka>	I think PDF has a better chance of that happening (except the specs allow DRM)
[04:01:15] <prefrontal>	just the standard, not the implementation everyone actually uses matters?
[04:02:11] <prefrontal>	there is only one true pdf renderer, much like there is only one definition of wikitext - the parser
[04:02:53] <Splarka>	um, you don't need to install mediawiki to view a site using mediawiki
[04:03:23] <Splarka>	if flash was a server-side paid application rendering content in an open format (svg+js? whatever), I wouldn't complain ^_^
[04:05:41] <prefrontal>	no, but if the parser were in javascript the user could directly render the document which turns out to be important for content creation. people don't generally think of creating flash or pdf documents in their browsers 
[04:06:43] <prefrontal>	yes, but rather ;)
[04:12:24] <prefrontal>	i hope they do rewrite the parser in javascript, i've been drooling over my sunspider benchmarks which get faster with every new webkit commit
[04:12:32] <prefrontal>	(as part of the quality thing)
[04:13:20] <prefrontal>	i bet that could save the foundation cash as well - pushing the rendering back out to the users
[04:14:09] <prefrontal>	don't you think?
[04:14:22] <Splarka>	won't work
[04:14:35] <Splarka>	template expansion requires database access to, yknow, expand templates
[04:14:58] <werdna>	some stuff could be done
[04:15:02] <Splarka>	and you can't even properly render [[foo]] without checking if the page exists
[04:15:19] <Splarka>	all you'd be able to do is basic predictable database-agnostic markup
[04:15:21] <prefrontal>	i see, but perhaps thats just an architecture issue
[04:15:30] <prefrontal>	its not really designed to operate in that mode, but it could be
[04:15:37] <werdna>	PPFrame_DOM::expand could be done client-side I suppose
[04:15:50] <prefrontal>	anyway its hard to improve on caching..
[04:15:57] <prefrontal>	maybe its no benefit given caching
[04:16:05] <prefrontal>	except for logged in users
[04:16:30] <prefrontal>	so what % of traffic is logged in users, how much parsing can be pushed to them?
[04:16:45] <werdna>	could save 250ms per request on average
[04:18:48] <simonrvn>	ok, i think i'm going to file a bug, it's completely ignoring the schema settings 
[04:18:51] <Splarka>	so that'd be 3 requests instead of one...
[04:19:13] <prefrontal>	that's what i'm saying about the architecture- those template blobs need to be ready ahead of time
[04:19:19] <prefrontal>	they are though in many cases due to caching
[04:19:21] <Splarka>	send client the raw wikitext, get it preparsed, send it back, get templates and links expaded.. send it back as html...
[04:19:40] <prefrontal>	all the user does is non-template expansion stuff..
[04:19:46] <prefrontal>	very last pass
[04:20:04] <werdna>	::explode() could be improved, as I said
[04:20:54] <Mike_lifeguard>	I love seeing implode & explode in the code :D
[04:20:57] <Mike_lifeguard>	what do they actually do?
[04:21:29] <Splarka>	hmm
[04:21:51] <Splarka>	so basically it'd be like a distributed p2p rendering network
[04:22:16] <Splarka>	make clients do processing on pageviews, and send it back to the cache, mediawiki@home
[04:23:09] <prefrontal>	i like it
[04:23:40] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Add functionality to watchlist - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18258  (10JSchulz_4587)
[04:24:00] <Prodego>	Mike_lifeguard: http://us.php.net/explode
[04:24:15] <Prodego>	http://us2.php.net/function.implode
[04:25:45] <Mike_lifeguard>	that's boring :D
[04:35:05] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Interproject links - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=708  (10RSYQFIOJGWZA)
[04:38:09] <charitwo>	nice email name
[04:43:20] <prefrontal>	i like: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki@Home
[04:46:03] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Hakka Wikipedia (hak:wp) doesn't recognize its own block durations - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18400 normal; Normal; Wikimedia: Language setup; (spidermannequin)
[04:48:22] *Splarka 	fails again at humor
[04:48:47] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Add pending edit notice to watchlist - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18258  summary (10JSchulz_4587)
[04:49:25] <CIA-78>	03aaron * r49301 10/trunk/extensions/FlaggedRevs/ (4 files in 2 dirs): (bug 18258) Added pending edit notice to watchlist for watched pages
[04:49:39] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED) Add pending edit notice to watchlist - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18258  +comment (10JSchulz_4587)
[04:49:45] <prefrontal>	oh, i forgot to laugh
[04:49:47] <prefrontal>	lol
[04:50:22] <prefrontal>	anyway, you know the foundation has already mentioned their interest in writing the parser in javascript; it was described as a distinct option for the quality project
[04:51:51] <Splarka>	the first problem is the use of the word "parser"
[04:52:06] <prefrontal>	right, i meant "series of regular expessions"
[04:52:07] <Splarka>	there isn't one really, there is a preprocessor and then a stack of hacky replacement rules 
[04:52:48] <Splarka>	and at each stage there are dependencies that are often beyond the scope of javascript, the major one of course being the full list of pages in the database
[04:53:24] <Splarka>	and also at each stage are hooks that can be used by extensions, to perform absolutely arbitrary actions on the results
[04:53:45] <prefrontal>	well, there is stil mediawiki proper
[04:53:58] <Splarka>	you can write an extension that replaces 'foo' with 'bar' at like two dozen points in the parsing of a page, how do you duplicate that in javascript?
[04:54:16] <AnonDiss>	prefrontal: I like the sound of MediaWiki@Home.
[04:55:17] <Splarka>	not to mention the regular predictable ones, like parser tags, parser extensions, interwiki links, interlang links, these are feasable to send to the javascript parser from the database, but the bandwidth at some point outweighs the time saved
[04:55:17] <prefrontal>	splarka, register known hook triggers per article so the dependency is primed in the future?
[04:55:26] <prefrontal>	sparka, can't you engineer around these issues?
[04:55:29] <werdna>	Splarka: as I said before, there are a few points at which the external dependencies are well-managed.
[04:55:58] <werdna>	Tim is an excellent software engineer, and so a lot of what he's written is doable with well-managed dependencies.
[04:57:01] <Splarka>	werdna: even then how would you, say... handle an extension using http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Hooks/ParserBeforeStrip
[04:57:35] <Splarka>	that hypothetically performed its own convoluted replacement on the page text
[04:57:46] <Splarka>	convert the extension's logic to javascript and send it to the client?
[04:57:50] <prefrontal>	a few ajax calls might turn out to be acceptable
[04:57:55] <Splarka>	heh
[04:57:57] <Splarka>	'a few'
[04:58:28] <prefrontal>	why not?
[04:58:29] <Splarka>	prefrontal: I requested action=render (later expanded to action=parse) in the api just for that purpose
[04:58:40] <prefrontal>	like the page says, drawing can occur as rendering proceeds
[04:58:47] <prefrontal>	rather, parsing proceeds
[04:59:32] <prefrontal>	if part of the page isn't ready we'll just insert those elements when we've got them
[04:59:39] <Splarka>	but making an API call at each hook, and sending the full text back and forth for each, doesn't sound like you'd actually gain anything: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Hooks#Page_Rendering
[05:00:20] <prefrontal>	i can't really evaluate the applicability of the hook argument - which are actually used on wikipedia?
[05:00:30] <prefrontal>	which could be eliminated in favor of another technique?
[05:00:31] <Splarka>	and werdna: even the best software engineer can't do much in the face of MediaWiki without rewriting wikicode, which I do agree should be done at some point, but... that will be very painful X_X
[05:02:02] <werdna>	Splarka: There is plenty that can be done to improve preprocessor efficiency
[05:02:06] <werdna>	the problem is manpower
[05:02:21] <werdna>	rewriting explode() in C has been one of Tim's goals for at least a year.
[05:02:40] <Splarka>	werdna: the preprocessor is just one aspect of parsing though, is it the most time consuming?
[05:02:59] <Splarka>	(and how many of those hooks are part of the preprocessor?)
[05:05:43] <werdna>	Preprocessor_DOM::preprocessToObj52351305  2.410.3862.20.469
[05:06:02] <werdna>	preprocessor takes 2.41% of cluster CPU time
[05:06:30] <werdna>	Parser::parse takes 40% of the cluster time
[05:06:35] <prefrontal>	wow!
[05:06:40] <werdna>	the most time consuming is replaceVariables
[05:06:42] <Splarka>	minimal savings then...
[05:06:56] <prefrontal>	what's that doing, besides the obvious?
[05:06:58] <werdna>	s/preprocessor/parser/ in 05:10 < werdna> Splarka: There is plenty that can be done to improve preprocessor efficiency
[05:07:13] <Splarka>	right, but the parser is the problem
[05:07:15] <werdna>	Mostly this devil here Parser::braceSubstitution-pfunc158638872  34.51.8327.61.94
[05:07:22] <werdna>	Splarka: the preprocessor is part of the parser
[05:07:32] <werdna>	parser functions take 34% of cluster time
[05:07:37] <Splarka>	/s/that/the general parsing not related to preprocessing
[05:07:44] <Splarka>	ew
[05:07:58] <Splarka>	braceSubstitution could be done in javascript, sure
[05:08:02] <werdna>	that might be a problem related to the infinite recursion
[05:08:06] <werdna>	no it couldn't
[05:08:11] <Splarka>	no?
[05:08:11] <AaronSchulz>	lots and lots of frames and recursion on braces
[05:08:22] <Splarka>	well, each level, with an API call back?
[05:08:31] <werdna>	because braceSubstitution includes parser functions.
[05:08:38] <werdna>	the meat of it is parser functions
[05:08:42] <Splarka>	ugh
[05:09:18] <werdna>	ah, looks like braceSubstitution is re-entrant
[05:09:42] <werdna>	so profiling is meaningless \o/
[05:11:14] <AaronSchulz>	:)
[05:11:21] *Splarka 	imagines a time when the php parser does nothing but port itself to javascript and C, and send copies of it self to the client and to the backend
[05:11:46] <werdna>	Splarka: in that case it would just port the porting code to javascript and C
[05:12:19] <Splarka>	death to php
[05:12:36] <prefrontal>	careful, i think you're winning at humor
[05:13:14] <Splarka>	except I wasn't trying to be, there
[05:16:02] <prefrontal>	current parser seems like a liability - need manpower
[05:17:15] <Splarka>	you propose a rewrite optimization of the parser while supporting the same wikicode syntax and all (or most) extension hooks?
[05:17:54] <werdna>	you probably want to discuss this while tim is around
[05:18:30] <prefrontal>	http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/One-pass_parser
[05:19:07] <prefrontal>	http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?ConsumeParseRenderVsMatchTransform
[05:19:12] <prefrontal>	don't need Tim, can inform self.
[05:19:31] <Splarka>	werdna: he always breaks down crying though:/
[05:19:40] <Splarka>	or eye bleeding
[05:20:49] <Splarka>	prefrontal: tim rewrote the preprocessor basically from scratch, took several months, and broke a lot of stuff... he had to go back and support a lot of bugs in the original preprocessor because they had become features
[05:21:23] <prefrontal>	that broke fckeditor!
[05:21:37] <prefrontal>	the coolest mediawiki editor, ajaxified etc..
[05:21:38] <Splarka>	a few things had improved, but at such a cost... and the diminishing returns are diminishing
[05:24:11] <prefrontal>	my understanding is that we can't do a one-pass parser because the language contains ambiguities. the reason it its ambiguous is that it wasn't designed to be non-ambiguous, and so the project should start by defining wikitext. the next step would be to remove the ambiguities, and then write a converter for all existing wikitext. finally, you would rewrite the parser using Lex & Yacc
[05:25:09] <Splarka>	that's sorta what tim always says, yah
[05:31:16] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Search shpould lead to similar pages - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18401 enhancement; Normal; MediaWiki: General/Unknown; (ravi.badam)
[05:47:25] <CIA-78>	03aaron * r49302 10/trunk/extensions/FlaggedRevs/FlaggedRevs.hooks.php: Broke some lines, tweaked comments
[06:15:26] <wikibugs>	14(DUP) {{SECTIONNUMBER}} - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18398  +comment (10jidanni)
[06:15:27] <wikibugs>	03(mod) [[Section::...]] variables - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1605  +comment (10jidanni)
[06:47:44] <kraut>	moin
[07:43:22] <nohup>	Hey, I'm really having a hard time understanding why I'm getting an error message, could someone please help me?
[07:43:53] <nohup>	Mediawiki 1.5, just going to the main page, it says: Fatal error: Class 'Linker' not found in wiki/includes/Parser.php on line 1085
[07:54:37] <nohup>	Anyone around?
[07:56:27] <nohup>	Hello?
[07:56:45] <Duesentrieb>	nohup: please be patient, irc is not a real time medium. well, it is sometimes...
[07:56:59] <Duesentrieb>	anyway... sounds like your install is broken. some files appear to be missing
[07:57:21] <Duesentrieb>	also... 1.5 is EXTREMLY old.
[07:57:40] <Duesentrieb>	it passed EOL years ago.
[07:58:17] <nohup>	I know, I'm trying to upgrade it
[07:58:44] <nohup>	I don't think any files are missing
[07:59:39] <Raymond_>	nohup: have you installed a new extension?
[08:00:48] <nohup>	No, I've been trying to upgrade... I started with 1.4 beta 4.  Got that up to 1.4 just fine.  But having trouble going to 1.5 now... the upgrade1.5 works and so does the update.php, but when I try to go to the wiki I get that message "Fatal error: Class 'Linker' not found in wiki/includes/Parser.php on line 1085
[08:02:48] <Raymond_>	hm no idea
[08:03:54] <Duesentrieb>	nohup: upgrade from 1.4 to 1.5 is generally problematic, because the database schema undergoes major changtes, and the chareset changes to utf8.
[08:04:06] <nohup>	I think it's related to the utf8 change
[08:04:16] <Duesentrieb>	extremly unlikely
[08:04:20] <Duesentrieb>	it's omplaining about a missing class
[08:04:28] <Duesentrieb>	i don't see how that could be related to the database charset
[08:04:44] <nohup>	hmm, well I can go back to 1.4.0 and it works.
[08:04:51] <Duesentrieb>	a missing class means either misplaced or missing files, or a very wrong include path setting.
[08:05:26] <nohup>	what you are saying makes sense, but I can re-copy the 1.5 files and it still gives that error.
[08:05:51] <Duesentrieb>	it'S possible that your old config is not going to work
[08:06:02] <Duesentrieb>	do you have a big user base? 
[08:06:17] <nohup>	maybe 10 user accounts
[08:06:29] <nohup>	I tried making a new config too... what's interesting about that is that it gives the exact same error, BUT on a different line
[08:06:36] <Duesentrieb>	you should consider simply starting fresh.
[08:06:48] <Duesentrieb>	you can import the content from the old system. use mwdumper to create an xml dump.
[08:07:15] <nohup>	where can I find mwdumper?
[08:07:25] <Duesentrieb>	!mwdumper
[08:07:25] --mwbot--	http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Mwdumper
[08:07:30] <Duesentrieb>	needs java though
[08:09:13] <nohup>	hmm, so the idea would be export all the content, upgrade to 1.14, then put it back in somehow?
[08:09:30] <nohup>	would that work exporting from an old version (1.4) and then trying to import back in?
[08:11:11] <Duesentrieb>	yes, the xml dump format is completly abstracted from the software fversion.
[08:11:28] <Duesentrieb>	and mwdumper supports the old 1.4 schema too
[08:11:40] <Duesentrieb>	well, i havn't tired, but it says it does :)
[08:11:44] <nohup>	how do you import it back in?
[08:12:34] <Duesentrieb>	!import
[08:12:34] --mwbot--	To import pages a few pages, use Special:Import - you can also import pages directly from another wiki (see !importsources). For mass imports, use importDump.php - see <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Importing_XML_dumps> for details. NOTE: when using content from another wiki, follow the LICENSE TERMS, especially, attribute source and authors!
[08:12:43] <werdna>	that problem isn't a DB problem
[08:12:52] <Duesentrieb>	werdna: i know.
[08:13:11] <Duesentrieb>	but upgrading from 1.4 is painful in all cases.
[08:13:15] <nohup>	werdna, any ideas?
[08:13:17] <werdna>	You probablyu iddn't upgrade properly
[08:13:26] <Duesentrieb>	with just 10 users, i'd suggest a fresh start.
[08:13:30] <werdna>	nohup: is AutoLoader.php in includes/?
[08:13:37] <werdna>	is Linker.php also in that directory?
[08:13:47] <werdna>	does 'Linker' appear in AutoLoader.php?
[08:13:49] <nohup>	checking..
[08:14:19] <nohup>	well actually I already blew away my DB, hang on one sec, let me get it back
[08:14:57] <Duesentrieb>	why would you do that? what would you create the dump from, then?
[08:15:39] <nohup>	I have backups
[08:18:42] <nohup>	OK, back on version 1.4.0 now
[08:23:07] <nohup>	OK, back to the same error again after upgrading to 1.5.0
[08:23:18] <nohup>	werdna, yes, AutoLoader.php is in includes
[08:23:44] <nohup>	werdna, yes Linker.php is also in that directory
[08:24:21] <nohup>	wait, 
[08:24:45] <nohup>	AutoLoader, no there is no AutoLoader.php in the includes
[08:25:03] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Interproject links - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=708  (10niklas.laxstrom)
[08:25:13] <werdna>	meh, might be that the autoloader didn't exist in 1.5.x
[08:25:33] <werdna>	why don't you upgrade past 1.5?
[08:25:38] <nohup>	yeah... I just copied the files fresh, AGAIN, so I don't think it's a problem of missing files
[08:25:41] <nohup>	I guess I could try that
[08:28:14] <nohup>	What version do you suggest I try to go to?
[08:28:16] <nohup>	latest?
[08:28:39] <MZMcBride>	Yes.
[08:29:17] <nohup>	I tried that earlier on a different wiki from 1.4 and it didn't work, but I'll give it a shot
[08:30:10] <Duesentrieb>	when upgrading from 1.4, in all cases you need manual charset conversion voodoo.
[08:30:24] <Duesentrieb>	the only way to avoid that is to use an xml dump
[08:30:34] <Duesentrieb>	oh, and don't let mysql do the charset conversion., that screws up good.
[08:30:49] <nohup>	hehe
[08:31:07] <nohup>	I'm a fool for not upgrading sooner
[08:33:44] <wikibugs>	04(REOPENED) Create approved Finnish Wikiversity [fi] (January 2009) - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16977  +comment (10crochet.david)
[08:42:08] <nohup>	upgrading to 1.14...
[08:42:35] <nohup>	wow, I think that might have worked
[08:43:34] <nohup>	So far so good!
[08:45:57] <nohup>	OK, for those that want to tread this path... I first upgraded 1.4 beta4 to 1.4.0  Then I unpacked 1.14 and ran the maintenance/upgrade1.5.php.  Then I ran the 1.14 update.php.  Looks like it's working.  On another wiki, I had to go from 1.4.0 to 1.5.0 first before jumping to 1.14.  So I think everything is good now, I need to do some more testing to be sure.  Thanks everyone for your help!
[08:52:26] <Duesentrieb>	maintenance/upgrade1.5.php is scary voodoo magic and should be avoided imho - but if it worked for you, good :)
[08:52:33] <Duesentrieb>	check something with non-ascii characters, though
[08:52:42] <nohup>	how?
[08:53:29] <nohup>	seems to be OK
[08:54:09] <nohup>	well that upgrade1.5.php didn't seem to convert all the tables either
[08:54:33] <nohup>	I guess that's ok though?
[08:54:42] <nohup>	Because everything seems to work, even non-ASCII chars
[08:56:45] <nohup>	Everything still says "collation" latin1_swedish_ci in phpmyadmin.  Is that a problem?
[09:02:57] <Duesentrieb>	nohup: no, that's ok. mediawiki fakes the encoding. don't ask. and with upgrade1.5.php, it>'s far worse still, because some data stays in the old tables.
[09:03:02] <Duesentrieb>	very confusing.
[09:03:41] <nohup>	well is there anything else you recommend?  Everything seems to be working
[09:05:26] <Duesentrieb>	nohup: if efverything is working, i recommend using it :)
[09:06:06] <Juandev>	hi
[09:06:22] <nohup>	werdna, Raymond, Duesentrieb, and MZMcBride, thank you so much
[09:06:28] <Juandev>	just a simple q: how to add other bottons to mediawiki edit toolbar?
[09:06:36] <MZMcBride>	No problem.
[09:06:56] <MZMcBride>	!toolbar
[09:06:56] --mwbot--	I don't know anything about "toolbar".
[09:07:02] <Duesentrieb>	!editbuttons
[09:07:02] --mwbot--	See <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:FAQ#How_do_I_add_more_buttons_on_the_edit_page.3F>, also have a look at <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:CharInsert>
[09:07:04] <MZMcBride>	Well you should, silly bot.
[09:07:08] <Duesentrieb>	Juandev: ^^
[09:07:12] <MZMcBride>	!toolbar alias editbuttons
[09:07:12] --mwbot--	Successfully added alias: toolbar
[09:07:53] <Juandev>	Duesentrieb: okay, let me see
[09:08:17] <nohup>	while he's asking, how do I change the links on the sidebar?
[09:08:19] <nohup>	!sidebar
[09:08:19] --mwbot--	To edit the navigation menu on the left, edit [[MediaWiki:Sidebar]] using its special syntax. For more details, see <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Interface/Sidebar>.
[09:14:00] <Juandev>	hmm, it didnt work:-(
[09:14:35] <Juandev>	maybe it is not enabled in localsettings.php?
[09:18:26] <Nikerabbit>	hi Duesentrieb
[09:18:53] <Duesentrieb>	hey Nikerabbit
[09:20:01] <Nikerabbit>	should I put the full sum of the flight there and how do I return it?
[09:21:41] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Set $wgRemoveGroups['bureaucrat'][] = 'sysop' on enwiki - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18390  (10happy-melon)
[09:47:27] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Autopatrolled permission - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18307  (10bookofjude)
[09:51:11] <CIA-78>	03tstarling * r49303 10/trunk/extensions/SecurePoll/ (14 files in 2 dirs): 
[09:51:11] <CIA-78>	* Added tallying
[09:51:11] <CIA-78>	* Added cookie-based fraud check
[09:51:11] <CIA-78>	* Added $wgDBTableOptions to the schema
[09:55:44] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Augment (or replace) wgNonincludableNamespaces with userCan - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18395  +comment (10roan.kattouw)
[09:57:51] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Add suppressredirect right to importer group - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18397  +comment (10roan.kattouw)
[09:57:54] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Initial letter case choice in transwiki import - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9943  (10roan.kattouw)
[09:57:56] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Allow import to different page name - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6808  (10roan.kattouw)
[10:00:36] <CIA-78>	03catrope * r49304 10/trunk/extensions/NewestPages/README: NewestPages: Fix path in README. Patch by Jidanni
[10:00:48] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED) include path wrong - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18399  +comment (10roan.kattouw)
[10:04:08] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Add autopatrolled group to English Wikisource - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18307  summary (10agarrett)
[10:07:03] <CIA-78>	03jojo * r49305 10/trunk/extensions/Collection/ (Collection.body.php Collection.hooks.php): fix: moved pageInCategory() to hooks
[10:10:56] <Juandev>	UMMM
[10:18:20] <CIA-78>	03purodha * r49306 10/trunk/extensions/uniwiki/CustomToolbar/CustomToolbar.i18n.php: 
[10:18:20] <CIA-78>	Type in message removed thanks to user CERminator of translatewiki.net at
[10:18:20] <CIA-78>	http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Support#Typo.3F
[10:24:51] <CIA-78>	03avar * r49307 10/trunk/extensions/SlippyMap/ (SlippyMap.class.php SlippyMap.php): 
[10:24:51] <CIA-78>	* Hack the generated JavaScript to allow multiple SlippyMaps per page
[10:24:51] <CIA-78>	* Addded horrid ParseAfterTidy hack so the parser won't have a field
[10:24:51] <CIA-78>	day with my JavaScript, eventually the JS should be added to the
[10:24:52] <CIA-78>	<head> section via some hook (and not have so much duplication)
[10:24:52] <CIA-78>	* Quote some JavaScript code with Xml::escapeJsString, other stuff still needs more escaping!
[10:24:56] <CIA-78>	* Comment out unused KML code
[10:26:49] <CIA-78>	03purodha * r49308 10/trunk/extensions/Configure/Configure.page.php: 
[10:26:49] <CIA-78>	Separate date, and time, parameters added to message configure-edit-old as per
[10:26:50] <CIA-78>	request at http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Support#Date.2Ftime_separation_needed:
[10:27:56] <werdna>	avar: You can use $wgOut->addScript and $wgOut->addScriptFile instead.
[10:31:26] <Juandev>	ok, bye
[10:31:28] <avar>	werdna: Thanks, I was wondering how to get rid of that inline suckery:)
[10:32:31] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Database dump processes halted since 26-Feb-09 - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17535  (10andreasmeier80)
[10:33:17] <CIA-78>	03avar * r49309 10/trunk/extensions/SlippyMap/SlippyMap.class.php: Oops, forgot to define a JS variable
[10:35:46] <werdna>	avar: :)
[10:37:34] *Duesentrieb 	is glad to see avar working on this
[10:40:03] <avar>	Duesentrieb: I'm writing a mail to maps-l atm. outlining some more stuff that needs doing
[10:40:21] <Duesentrieb>	excellent.
[10:40:39] <Duesentrieb>	i'll try to work out more details about the hardware setup
[10:41:10] <Duesentrieb>	avar: i have been wondering if osm could benefit from some servers with graphics capabilities... a couple of decent graphic cards could speed things up, no?
[10:41:44] <Duesentrieb>	or go full distance and use a gpu system... but that's probably for later
[10:43:22] <avar>	Duesentrieb: Searching for something like that on the mapink list yields this somewhat unambiguous answer: http://lists.berlios.de/pipermail/mapnik-devel/2008-May/000620.html :)
[10:45:45] <Duesentrieb>	avar: i think there might be people who'd want to play with that. maybe we could have a graphic card in the toolserver system for people to poke at.
[10:46:11] <Duesentrieb>	avar: basically, i'm not a map guy... i just know a gpu wizard who might be interested :)
[10:46:19] <avar>	Ah:)
[10:46:42] <avar>	Well I don't know how hard mapnik would be to hack to do that, but you could of course also write your own renderer
[10:46:47] <Duesentrieb>	tried to get him to the c-base but failed. to bad, he's a local hacker
[10:46:49] <avar>	There's some 3d stuff being done already with osm data
[10:47:18] <avar>	Do rackmount servers have AGP slots?
[10:47:33] <flyingparchment>	nothing has AGP slots anymore
[10:47:38] <flyingparchment>	modern graphics cards are PCIe
[10:47:46] <avar>	Ah, right, pci-express
[10:47:59] <flyingparchment>	(i'm not entirely sure if all servers have PCIe x16 slots though--which is the sort you want for a gpu)
[10:48:02] <Duesentrieb>	avar: 3d would be even more his domain i think. 
[10:48:04] <avar>	Duesentrieb: Will you revoke my account if I start playing Doom 3 via ssh -X on the toolserver?
[10:48:23] <Duesentrieb>	probably :P
[10:48:25] <avar>	http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Image:OSM3d_Dresden2.jpg
[10:48:30] <Duesentrieb>	we actually had someone running a server there.
[10:48:31] <avar>	http://www.geographie.uni-bonn.de/karto/osm-3d/screenshots.en.htm
[10:48:40] <Duesentrieb>	UT it was, i think.
[10:48:42] <avar>	haha
[10:48:57] <flyingparchment>	counterstrike
[10:49:08] <avar>	That might be a very cool hack if the guys you were shooting resulted in AFD being processed:)
[10:49:09] <Duesentrieb>	ah right
[10:49:26] <Duesentrieb>	:P
[10:57:56] <henna>	oooooooooooh
[10:58:18] <henna>	can we shoot editors too ? :D
[10:59:41] <p858snake>	no you make them watch the hiliary duff movie
[12:02:42] <CIA-78>	03tstarling * r49310 10/trunk/extensions/SecurePoll/ (7 files in 2 dirs): 
[12:02:43] <CIA-78>	* Rewrote voterList.php
[12:02:43] <CIA-78>	* Fixed start/finish handling in VotePage
[12:02:43] <CIA-78>	* Added not-bot qualification
[12:02:43] <CIA-78>	* Removed useless securepoll group/right
[12:02:43] <CIA-78>	* Fixed user language transfer from source wiki
[12:12:07] <CIA-78>	03tstarling * r49311 10/trunk/extensions/SecurePoll/ (cacert-both.crt tally.php): Removed obsolete files
[12:23:55] <MostafaDaneshvar>	how can I redirect an url in my wiki for example en:test to en.wikipedia?
[12:24:19] <MostafaDaneshvar>	*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/test
[12:25:00] <Reedy>	it'd need to be a soft redirect..
[12:25:13] <^demon>	Reedy: Not necessarily...you can enable interwiki redirects.
[12:25:22] <Reedy>	orly?
[12:25:30] <Duesentrieb>	i don't see why you would want to do it anyway.
[12:25:35] <Duesentrieb>	just use interwiki links
[12:25:37] <MostafaDaneshvar>	shall I use interwiki?
[12:26:09] <Duesentrieb>	sure, that'S what it exists for
[12:26:32] <Reedy>	Wonder when Roan will be about...
[12:41:34] <DW-Staff|Gara>	is the css property "background-image:url();" disabled on mediawiki?
[12:42:00] <DW-Staff|Gara>	I can't get divs (with fixed width) to use my (locally stored) image as background
[12:44:41] <werdna>	probably by the parser, but not by site css/js
[12:50:54] <pschloss>	hi, I'm trying to get TeX to work on my wiki and keep getting the "Failed to parse (PNG...)" error when I do <math>0</math>.  I'm using Mac OS X 10.5 server and I have latex, dvips, gs, and convert in /sw/bin/.  Any guidance?
[12:53:43] <DW-Staff|Gara>	werdna:thanks, implementing it into the sitecss worked
[13:05:29] <CIA-78>	03werdna * r49312 10/branches/preferences-work/extensions/AbuseFilter/AbuseFilter.parser.php: 
[13:05:29] <CIA-78>	Replace existing ccnorm one with one that makes use of faststringsearch where
[13:05:29] <CIA-78>	available. In local benchmarking on 400kB pages, the existing function was
[13:05:29] <CIA-78>	aborted at 10 minutes, whereas the new function took just 47ms. So the new
[13:05:29] <CIA-78>	function is faster by at least 5 orders of magnitude
[13:06:02] <werdna>	bah, wrong branch
[13:06:28] <werdna>	I'll merge it later
[13:06:41] <^demon>	werdna: 5 times? Wow.
[13:07:04] <werdna>	not 5 times
[13:07:08] <werdna>	5 orders of magnitude
[13:07:20] <werdna>	a factor of 12,000
[13:07:30] <werdna>	http://www.google.com.au/search?q=10+minutes+%2F+47+ms&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a
[13:07:59] <^demon>	I knew that :)
[13:11:41] <yt2005_GimmeBack>	hiya all. is there a limit to how many connections i can use to download the enwiki xml.bz2?
[13:30:58] <Simetrical>	yt2005_GimmeBack, doubt it.  It's unlikely you're going to have a noticeable impact on Wikipedia's bandwidth usage.
[13:32:24] <CIA-78>	03tstarling * r49313 10/trunk/extensions/SecurePoll/includes/Auth.php: Add $lang to available URL parameters in SecurePoll_RemoteMWAuth
[13:32:38] <flyingparchment>	isn't 12,000 times faster 4 orders of magnitude? 
[13:35:17] <flyingparchment>	Simetrical: did you talk to cary yet?
[13:37:39] <Simetrical>	flyingparchment, I contacted him, but he hasn't responded . . .
[13:37:46] <Simetrical>	Maybe I should try a different method of contact.
[13:37:47] <Simetrical>	Is he on IRC?
[13:38:06] <flyingparchment>	yes, usually as cary (or cary-busy)
[13:38:17] <flyingparchment>	or bastique
[13:38:17] <Simetrical>	12,000 times faster is about 4.07918 orders of magnitude.
[13:38:44] <Simetrical>	Where does he usually hang out?  None of those nicks are around right now.
[13:38:57] <CIA-78>	03avar * r49314 10/trunk/extensions/SlippyMap/SlippyMap.class.php: Un-break the slippymap getwiki/reset buttons
[13:41:15] <flyingparchment>	he doen't seem to be around at the moment
[13:50:47] <werdna>	he'll be on at about 9-10 sf time
[14:01:23] <CIA-78>	03rotem * r49315 10/trunk/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Localization update for he.
[14:09:44] <Danny_B|webgate>	when (if already known) is the next scap planned? thx
[14:23:29] <CIA-78>	03emil * r49316 10/trunk/phase3/ (RELEASE-NOTES docs/hooks.txt includes/MessageCache.php): 
[14:23:29] <CIA-78>	Added new hook 'MessageCacheReplace' into MessageCache.php. For instance
[14:23:29] <CIA-78>	to allow extensions to update caches in similar way as MediaWiki invalidates
[14:23:29] <CIA-78>	a cached MonoBook sidebar
[14:41:56] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Augment (or replace) wgNonincludableNamespaces with userCan - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18395  (10paprots)
[14:48:44] <funkja>	Is there a way that I can have a link on my wiki that sets a session variable that my skin can read?
[14:49:21] <Duesentrieb>	links generally don't set variables. you'd need an extension that does this based on a url parameter
[14:49:38] <funkja>	Duesentrieb, okay
[14:52:01] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Deleted Redirects still showing up. - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18402 normal; Normal; MediaWiki: Redirects; (si.wikibug)
[15:14:24] <funkja>	I'm getting errors like this: "Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 20971520 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 30720 bytes)" (notice that the tried is less then the amount exhausted) when I try to save a page whose content has non-standard characters. Is this a mediawiki problem or my webserver's problem?
[15:18:10] <Simetrical>	funkja, you need to raise the memory_limit.
[15:18:16] <Simetrical>	At least, that's the quick and easy solution.
[15:18:24] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Special:PrefixIndex ignores trailing spaces (or underscores) - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17094  (10AlexSm)
[15:18:49] <Simetrical>	(tried is less than exhausted because the "tried" figure is only the amount for the specific allocation that pushed it over the top, not the total figure)
[15:19:24] <funkja>	Simetrical: oh okay - that was the confusing part for me
[15:20:09] <Splarka>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_straw
[15:26:33] <funkja>	Is there a way, without installing a special exception, to disallow visitors to view history?
[15:28:19] <Duesentrieb>	funkja: lockdown can do that. though iut only prevents viewing the history page. i think individual old revisions and diffs can still be seen by guessign a url.
[15:28:34] <Duesentrieb>	funkja: but... if you really weant that, perhaps you don't want a wiki?
[15:28:41] <Duesentrieb>	the history is an important part of a wiki.
[15:29:07] <Betacommand>	funkja: use css/js to hide the tab
[15:29:25] <funkja>	Duesentrieb: It's true... I don't really want to use a wiki :) 
[15:29:35] <Duesentrieb>	so use something else :)
[15:29:36] <Duesentrieb>	!cms
[15:29:36] --mwbot--	Wikis are designed for openness, to be readable and editable by all. If you want a forum, a blog, a web authoring toolkit or corporate content management system, perhaps don't use wiki software. There is a nice overview of free tools available at <http://www.opensourcecms.com/> including the possibility to try each system. For ways to restrict access in MediaWiki, see !access.
[15:30:24] <funkja>	Duesentrieb: I'll tell you my situation and perhaps you can give me your advise :)
[15:32:39] <funkja>	I have been asked to make a webpage for some people who will not be able to update the page, unless it is from a fairly simple UI. I will be not be providing any support for them after I give it to them, so they will need to be able to update/create do whatever they need to do easily. This can all be accomplished with MW - but hiding the extra information is the step that I am on. Do you think a CMS is a better fit?
[15:35:26] <Duesentrieb>	funkja: a simple personal crm is what you are looking for. some also support something like wiki syntax, i think. some wikis also allow you to turn them into a cms pretty easily.
[15:36:07] <Duesentrieb>	funkja: go to http://www.opensourcecms.com/ and play around. that's what the sirte is good for :)
[15:36:14] <funkja>	okay
[15:37:12] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Category unfolding doesn't work anymore - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18382  +comment (10brianna.laugher)
[15:37:14] <Duesentrieb>	joomla seems to be popular. never tried it myself, though
[15:37:43] <funkja>	Yes, I've heard of that as well. 
[15:37:45] <Duesentrieb>	drupal is *very* popular. 
[15:38:03] <Duesentrieb>	lots of new and small stuff to play around with on the site... i see 89 php cms systems :)
[15:38:26] <uwjweq>	How to create an article in my own namespace
[15:39:58] <Danny_B|webgate>	uwjweq: type in the searchbox mynamespace:articlename
[15:40:43] <uwjweq>	Where mynamespace is my username?
[15:41:29] <Wuzur|rhn>	uwjweq: You mean your userspace, thats User:yourusername/articlename
[15:41:47] <uwjweq>	yay
[15:41:51] <uwjweq>	Thanks
[15:41:59] <Splarka>	or more probably Benutzer:yourusername
[16:03:07] <flyingparchment>	Simetrical: cary is here
[16:22:25] <Prodego>	flyingparchment: but hiding
[16:31:19] <Simetrical>	flyingparchment, http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Identification_noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=1452773
[16:32:05] <jlerner__>	anyone from aboutus.org here?
[16:34:04] <Simetrical>	Why would anyone from aboutus.org be here?  What *is* aboutus.org?
[16:34:10] <jlerner>	a big mediawiki site
[16:34:15] <jlerner>	partially mediawiki anyway
[16:34:40] <CIA-78>	03minuteelectron * r49317 10/trunk/extensions/MultiBoilerplate/ (MultiBoilerplate.i18n.php MultiBoilerplate.php): 
[16:34:40] <CIA-78>	MultiBoilerplate:
[16:34:40] <CIA-78>	* Get boilerplate list from content language message.
[16:34:41] <CIA-78>	* Icelandic localisation updates.
[16:34:41] <CIA-78>	Thanks to Sigurour Guobrandsson for these.
[16:51:03] <CIA-78>	03ialex * r49318 10/trunk/extensions/Configure/ (Configure.i18n.php Configure.page.php): 
[16:51:04] <CIA-78>	* Whitespaces fixes for r49308
[16:51:05] <CIA-78>	* Add plural support for configure-transwiki-not-in-range
[17:08:14] <hashar>	hello :)
[17:10:43] <ialex>	hey hashar
[17:29:17] <[AMB]Tolsome>	hi
[17:30:33] <[AMB]Tolsome>	http://www.ld-host.de/show/12530658748794c6265e3290332e849a.png#
[17:30:42] <[AMB]Tolsome>	Can someone do this?
[17:31:30] <[AMB]Tolsome>	The Problem is that the .css say "do it on the right", but since the Upgrade to 1.14 the NavArrow ist now in the center
[17:31:35] <[AMB]Tolsome>	What can I do?
[17:37:17] <saper>	Check your Common.css and friends
[17:40:14] <[AMB]Tolsome>	In the .css ist nothing different since it was correct
[17:40:17] <[AMB]Tolsome>	*is
[17:40:39] <saper>	yes, but maybe some other classes changed and NavFrame depends on their behaviour
[17:40:51] <saper>	or NavArrow whatever
[17:41:35] <saper>	I would recommend using DOM Inspector and Venkman (Javascript debugger) - both available in the Mozilla browser near you - to pinpoint the issue.
[17:41:59] <saper>	webdeveloper toolbar and/or firebug can be of help, too (they are much lighter)
[17:44:56] <CIA-78>	03aaron * r49319 10/USERINFO/aaron: update
[17:49:48] <[AMB]Tolsome>	oh okay
[17:50:01] <[AMB]Tolsome>	I have no plan about this programs ^^
[17:52:06] <mattEi>	Hello
[17:52:09] <mattEi>	is any1 out there
[17:53:15] <jlerner>	mattEi - what's your question
[17:55:13] <whoops>	I've got a really long wiki page, and i would like to print only a seciton of it.  Is there a method or extention allowing a user to easily print one section?
[18:03:32] <T-Vairus>	hello, I have a problem with the images on my mediawiki. I uploaded a image and put it in a article, when I resize the picture to put it in the box, the image is gone (not to see). please look at the right side, there is not a image
[18:03:34] <T-Vairus>	http://web24.wkh2.wk-hosting.de/mediawiki/index.php?title=Resident_Evil_5
[18:04:02] <T-Vairus>	sorry for my english
[18:04:25] <erwin85>	Does anyone know why "{{subst:#ifeq: {{lc:{{BASEPAGENAME}}}} | {{uc:{{BASEPAGENAME}}}} | TRUE | FALSE}}" evaluate to FALSE when they are actually equal?
[18:06:29] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Monobook crashes MediaWiki after click on "Login/Create an Account link" - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18173  +comment (10phillip)
[18:11:19] <Splarka>	erwin85: does {{#ifeq: {{lc:{{BASEPAGENAME}}}} | {{uc:{{BASEPAGENAME}}}} | TRUE | FALSE}} work?
[18:11:28] <erwin85>	Yes
[18:11:38] <Splarka>	(in the way you would expect, that is... like on a page [[1234]])
[18:11:44] <erwin85>	Yes
[18:12:00] <[AMB]Tolsome>	hi, Splarka :)
[18:12:02] <Splarka>	how about {{subst:#ifeq: {{subst:lc:{{BASEPAGENAME}}}} | {{subst:uc:{{BASEPAGENAME}}}} | TRUE | FALSE}}  ?
[18:12:09] <Splarka>	rar
[18:12:15] <[AMB]Tolsome>	Do you remember me? ^^
[18:12:34] <Splarka>	vaguely
[18:12:43] <Splarka>	something about Collapsible Tables... and pain...
[18:12:52] <[AMB]Tolsome>	lol
[18:13:13] <[AMB]Tolsome>	We make the Nav together, too
[18:13:29] <erwin85>	Splarka, false, i.e. wrong.
[18:13:46] <Splarka>	erwin85 okay, try this: {{subst:#ifeq: {{subst:lc:{{subst:BASEPAGENAME}}}} | {{subst:uc:{{subst:BASEPAGENAME}}}} | TRUE | FALSE}}
[18:14:08] <erwin85>	True, but why? :)
[18:14:15] <Splarka>	magic
[18:14:29] <[AMB]Tolsome>	Now I updgrade the wiki to 1.14 and the arrow "show" and "hide" is by me in the center, not more in the right. The css and js is the original from you, I changed nothing.
[18:14:30] <Splarka>	you have to subst every variable and parserfunction
[18:14:33] <erwin85>	It evaluates the most inner subst first and works its way out?
[18:14:47] <Splarka>	otherwise it isn't comparing the output, but the code 
[18:14:52] <Splarka>	yah
[18:14:53] <erwin85>	Figures.. thanks.
[18:15:00] <Splarka>	you can make a template for it too
[18:15:08] <Splarka>	wrap subst: with <includeonly>
[18:15:45] <Splarka>	{{<includeonly>subst:</includeonly>#ifeq: {{<includeonly>subst:</includeonly>lc:{{<includeonly>subst:</includeonly>BASEPAGENAME}}}} | {{<includeonly>subst:</includeonly>uc:{{<includeonly>subst:</includeonly>BASEPAGENAME}}}} | TRUE | FALSE}}
[18:16:16] <Splarka>	[AMB]Tolsome: hmm, odd
[18:16:22] <Splarka>	can you link to a page that has it uncentered?
[18:17:14] <[AMB]Tolsome>	no, because after the upgrade wiki has take the "show" and "hide" in the center
[18:17:28] <Splarka>	k
[18:17:39] <[AMB]Tolsome>	look: http://www.ld-host.de/show/12530658748794c6265e3290332e849a.png#
[18:17:39] <Splarka>	hmmm, then link me to a page that has it centered
[18:17:46] <Splarka>	need to inspect the DOM
[18:17:50] <[AMB]Tolsome>	http://simpire.megamers.ch/wikipire/index.php?title=Ambici%C3%B3n
[18:18:16] <[AMB]Tolsome>	here you can find the original template: http://simpire.megamers.ch/wikipire/index.php?title=Vorlage:Infobox_bestehender_Staat
[18:18:35] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Monobook crashes MediaWiki after click on "Login/Create an Account link" - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18173  (10phillip)
[18:19:56] <Splarka>	hmm
[18:20:10] <Splarka>	<div class="NavHead" align="center" style="border-top: 1px solid rgb(170, 170, 170); padding: 0.3em; background: transparent none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial;"><font size="1" color="#0033cc">Historie:</font><a class="NavToggle" id="NavToggle1" href="javascript:toggleNavigationBar(1);">[v]</a></div>
[18:21:14] <[AMB]Tolsome>	in 1.13 was the Arrow in the right, that has nothing to do with my template. (That is what I think)
[18:21:24] <Splarka>	yah, just looking at it...
[18:22:43] <Splarka>	hmm, I don't see Common.css
[18:23:56] <Splarka>	yes, that's the problem
[18:24:00] <[AMB]Tolsome>	http://simpire.megamers.ch/wikipire/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Common.css
[18:24:02] <[AMB]Tolsome>	hm?
[18:24:04] <mattEi>	you know what i see as the problem
[18:24:06] <Splarka>	[AMB]Tolsome: it is not being loaded at all
[18:24:08] <mattEi>	your using mediashitty
[18:24:37] <[AMB]Tolsome>	http://simpire.megamers.ch/wikipire/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Common.css
[18:24:38] <Splarka>	the upgrade must have moved the CSS skin loads from the Skin or SkinTemplate to MonoBook.php
[18:24:48] <Splarka>	[AMB]Tolsome: view a page source, it isn't being loaded
[18:24:54] <[AMB]Tolsome>	okay
[18:24:55] <Splarka>	you'll have to add it to this skin manually I guess
[18:25:05] <Splarka>	'sgumax'
[18:25:12] <[AMB]Tolsome>	okay, how I must do that? ^^
[18:25:16] <Splarka>	no idea
[18:25:21] <Splarka>	lemme see where it moved
[18:25:21] <[AMB]Tolsome>	:P
[18:25:45] *Splarka 	SVN blames
[18:25:52] <mattEi>	I know where it moved
[18:25:54] <mattEi>	to hell
[18:26:12] <Splarka>	do you need something mattEi?
[18:26:17] <mattEi>	yea
[18:26:23] <mattEi>	a better mediawiki
[18:26:50] <mattEi>	also a penis colada
[18:31:40] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Monobook crashes MediaWiki after click on "Login/Create an Account link" - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18173  (10phillip)
[18:31:48] <Splarka>	lovely
[18:32:12] <Splarka>	where was I
[18:32:29] <Splarka>	$out->addStyle( self::makeNSUrl( 'Common.css', $query, NS_MEDIAWIKI ) );
[18:32:35] <Splarka>	in Skin.php, hmm
[18:33:45] <Splarka>	that is what 1.14 does... 1.13 however...
[18:34:13] <Splarka>	$s .= '@import "' . self::makeNSUrl( 'Common.css', $query, NS_MEDIAWIKI ) . "\";\n" .
[18:34:27] <CIA-78>	03raymond * r49320 10/trunk/phase3/languages/messages/ (33 files): Localisation updates for core messages from translatewiki.net (2009-04-08 17:57 UTC)
[18:34:33] <[AMB]Tolsome>	Please, explain me, what that mean
[18:34:44] <Splarka>	[AMB]Tolsome: are you sure Skin.php and SkinTemplate.php both got upgraded? you didn't edit them did ya?
[18:34:51] *RoanKattouw 	wonders why makeNSUrl is needed rather than Title::getFullURL()
[18:34:54] <[AMB]Tolsome>	ya
[18:35:26] <[AMB]Tolsome>	I only editing in the sgumax folder, nothing else.
[18:36:30] <Splarka>	well, darn, both 1.13 and 1.14 have function outputPage() call $this->setupUserCss()
[18:36:41] <Splarka>	and Common.css is loaded in 1.14 in setupUserCss()
[18:36:53] <Splarka>	so I dunno how it could skip it
[18:36:59] <Splarka>	but I dunno php
[18:37:08] <Splarka>	I think the skin sgumax just isn't ready for 1.14
[18:37:10] <Splarka>	who wrote it?
[18:37:26] <[AMB]Tolsome>	Paul Gu
[18:37:32] <Splarka>	bug him ^_^
[18:37:41] <RoanKattouw>	Linker has been rewritten between 1.13 and 1.14, and Skin inherits that
[18:38:03] <[AMB]Tolsome>	and why? XD
[18:38:24] <Splarka>	all the IEfixes load, hmm
[18:38:29] <Splarka>	RoanKattouw: http://simpire.megamers.ch/wikipire/index.php?title=Ambici%C3%B3n
[18:38:41] <Splarka>	view the source, see what is loading and what isn't, maybe you can help him
[18:39:01] <Splarka>	(eg, what to edit in the sgumax php to load Common/Skinname/Print/Handheld)
[18:39:16] *RoanKattouw 	waits for link to sgumax.php
[18:39:29] <RoanKattouw>	And what's missing exactly?
[18:39:45] <[AMB]Tolsome>	http://www.ld-host.de/show/12530658748794c6265e3290332e849a.png#
[18:39:48] <Splarka>	when they upgraded from 1.13 to 1.14 Common.css disappeared
[18:40:03] <Kodos2>	I need help configuring the "References" funcationality (which doesn't work at all) in my local mediawiki. anyone around here knows how to make it work?
[18:40:04] <RoanKattouw>	!e Cite | Kodos2 
[18:40:04] --mwbot--	Kodos2: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Cite
[18:40:11] <RoanKattouw>	Right
[18:40:19] <[AMB]Tolsome>	in 1.13 the arrow was on the right, now it is in the center
[18:40:27] <[AMB]Tolsome>	I change nothing in the css
[18:40:27] <Splarka>	http://www.google.com/search?q=sgumax&btnG=Google+Search
[18:40:31] <RoanKattouw>	That's [[MediaWiki:Commons.css]] right?
[18:40:34] <Splarka>	yah
[18:40:51] <Splarka>	as well as print/handheld/skinname, etc
[18:41:29] *RoanKattouw 	wonders why 1.14 does @import while trunk doesn't
[18:41:31] *Splarka 	doesn't see anything obvious in the functionality in MonoBook.php causing it that would break if Skin/SkinTemplate were upgraded, but meh php
[18:41:50] <RoanKattouw>	I believe the Common.css stuff is generated in OutputPage
[18:41:52] <Splarka>	1.13 does import, 1.14 should be doing $out->addStyle( self::makeNSUrl( 'Common.css', $query, NS_MEDIAWIKI ) );
[18:42:08] <RoanKattouw>	    <style type="text/css" media="screen,projection">/*<![CDATA[*/ @import "/wikipire/skins/sgumax/gumax_main.css?195"; /*]]>*/</style>
[18:42:15] <Splarka>	that is the skin
[18:42:34] <Splarka>	which wasn't upgraded, was forked off Monobook from probably 1.10 or something
[18:42:40] <Splarka>	(2007 anyway)
[18:46:46] <RoanKattouw>	Hmm
[18:46:58] <RoanKattouw>	Can't find anything offhand, but I wouldn't be surprised if the skin's just rotten
[18:47:07] <RoanKattouw>	Someone who knows skinning better should take a look
[18:47:33] *Simetrical 	doesn't even attempt to debug third-party skins
[18:47:38] <Simetrical>	It's like debugging an extension.
[18:48:14] <[AMB]Tolsome>	Sorry, but I have a question
[18:48:53] <[AMB]Tolsome>	Can you say me, what skin and the Navbox have to do with this problem together?
[18:49:21] <Splarka>	okay
[18:49:30] <Splarka>	dynamic navigation is javascript and CSS
[18:49:37] <Splarka>	and some templates
[18:49:41] <Splarka>	remember copying all those?
[18:50:56] <Splarka>	in 1.14, the way local CSS loads was changed
[18:51:01] <Reedy>	RoanKattouw, hey, did you get anywhere with the special pages bug?
[18:51:02] <Splarka>	but your skin is old
[18:51:15] <Reedy>	Thats not very nice Splarka ;)
[18:51:17] <Splarka>	that means, nothing in MediaWiki:Common.css is loading in your skin
[18:51:23] <RoanKattouw>	Reedy: Not in Berlin :P I literally haven't written any code over there
[18:51:36] <RoanKattouw>	I'll pick it up later, first got an exam and a paid job
[18:51:40] <Splarka>	a.NavToggle {
[18:51:40] <Splarka>	    position: absolute;
[18:51:44] <Splarka>	right: 3px;
[18:51:44] <Reedy>	haha, fair enough :), just thought i'd ask as you had mentioned you might get chance to do it :)
[18:51:49] <Splarka>	that is needed to force it to the right
[18:51:59] <Splarka>	but because your skin is now broken, that is not loading from Common.css
[18:52:09] <[AMB]Tolsome>	okay
[18:52:14] <[AMB]Tolsome>	now I understand
[18:52:20] <Splarka>	so you need to find the author, or someone who understands skins
[18:52:37] <Splarka>	in the meantime, you can add to your Common.js something like..
[18:52:54] <RoanKattouw>	Reedy: Yeah, intended to get stuff done on the train, but I had to study for my exams too :(
[18:53:01] <Splarka>	importStyleSheet('MediaWiki:Common.css');
[18:53:06] <Reedy>	Nah, they're more important!
[18:53:10] <Reedy>	RoanKattouw, if it comes to it, and you guys get next years wikimania, i'll just hunt you down then :P
[18:53:16] <RoanKattouw>	heh
[18:53:30] <Splarka>	add that to http://simpire.megamers.ch/wikipire/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Common.js&action=edit , this is a temporary measure
[18:53:37] <RoanKattouw>	Well I'll come to WM '10 sure thing, wherever it's held
[18:53:43] <RoanKattouw>	(even if it's you guys ;) )
[18:53:44] <Reedy>	heh :)
[18:53:50] <Splarka>	Antarctica!
[18:53:53] <Reedy>	I probably owe you a beer whatever way
[18:54:20] <Splarka>	erk
[18:54:26] <Splarka>	importStylesheet('MediaWiki:Common.css');
[18:54:28] <Splarka>	srry, typo
[18:54:41] <[AMB]Tolsome>	in the first line?
[18:54:54] <Splarka>	yes, above /** Collapsible tables *********************************************************
[18:55:03] <Splarka>	importStylesheet('MediaWiki:Common.css');
[18:55:05] <Splarka>	/** Collapsible tables *********************************************************
[18:55:06] <Splarka>	etc
[18:55:48] <[AMB]Tolsome>	do not work...
[18:56:49] <[AMB]Tolsome>	now ^^
[18:56:51] <[AMB]Tolsome>	:)
[18:57:01] <[AMB]Tolsome>	WOW
[18:57:03] <[AMB]Tolsome>	:)
[18:57:15] <[AMB]Tolsome>	I love you :P :P :P
[18:57:24] <Splarka>	yes, but remember this is temporary!
[18:57:26] <Splarka>	heh
[18:57:31] <Splarka>	find the author
[18:57:54] <[AMB]Tolsome>	okay, I do it, but why?
[18:58:03] <[AMB]Tolsome>	is this not for ever?
[18:58:33] <Splarka>	because you're missing all your other site-wide local CSS
[18:58:39] <Splarka>	and it won't load for non-javascript users
[18:58:51] <Splarka>	just trust me, you don't wanna keep it like this
[18:58:52] <[AMB]Tolsome>	argh
[18:59:30] <Splarka>	for now it works okay because you only have javascript-related styles in Common.css
[18:59:54] <[AMB]Tolsome>	but when I want to do more....
[19:06:27] <[AMB]Tolsome>	I posted the problem
[19:06:31] <[AMB]Tolsome>	http://forum.paulgu.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=319
[19:07:33] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Weaken DISPLAYTITLE restictions - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12998  +comment (10brion)
[19:07:38] <chessguy_work>	is it possible to invent some markup in mediawiki for inlining another article?
[19:07:43] <CIA-78>	03raymond * r49321 10/trunk/extensions/ (96 files in 91 dirs): Localisation updates for extension messages from translatewiki.net (2009-04-08 18:40 UTC)
[19:08:18] <Splarka>	[AMB]Tolsome: perfect ^_^
[19:08:30] <[AMB]Tolsome>	ok ^_^
[19:09:24] <chessguy_work>	like if the content of the current page is [#|page1|#] [#|page2|#] then i want the current page, when loaded, to grab the contents of page1 and page2 and concatenate them
[19:09:42] <RoanKattouw>	chessguy_work: {{:page1}} {{:page2}}
[19:09:57] <chessguy_work>	oh, the syntax exists already?
[19:09:59] <chessguy_work>	heh
[19:10:39] <chessguy_work>	aren't i a genius? :)
[19:11:08] <Splarka>	chessguy_work: the syntax is {{[[namespace]:pagename|templatename]}}
[19:11:36] <chessguy_work>	ok, what if i want the user to have to click something on the page for the inlining to occur?
[19:11:46] <Splarka>	{{foo}} -> [[Template:Foo]], {{Template:foo}} -> [[Template:Foo]], {{:foo}} -> [[Foo]],  {{User:foo}} -> [[User:Foo]]
[19:12:46] <chessguy_work>	err, what?
[19:12:58] <Splarka>	that is the method for specifying a title when transcluding
[19:13:07] <RoanKattouw>	!template
[19:13:07] --mwbot--	For more information about templates, see <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Templates>. The most common issues with templates copied from Wikipedia can be fixed by installing ParserFunctions <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:ParserFunctions> and enabling HTML Tidy <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:%24wgUseTidy>.
[19:13:12] <Splarka>	the Template: namespace is assumed if no namespace is given
[19:13:33] <Splarka>	chessguy_work: for dynamically, you can either load it via ajax, or load it and then hide it via javascript
[19:14:11] <chessguy_work>	oh i can do that within wiki markup?
[19:14:40] <Splarka>	with site-wide JS
[19:14:51] <Splarka>	if you don't have access, you can't really do it dynamically
[19:15:39] <chessguy_work>	well i don't want the function call to be in the template or something
[19:15:49] <chessguy_work>	not sure if i'm understanding correctly
[19:19:55] <chessguy_work>	got any good examples of using JS on a mediawiki page?
[19:24:29] <Splarka>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NAVFRAME
[19:26:44] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Set $wgRemoveGroups['bureaucrat'][] = 'sysop' on enwiki - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18390  (10mikelifeguard)
[19:27:07] <chessguy_work>	thanks, i'll play around 
[19:29:29] <Preforx>	Hello
[19:29:31] <[AMB]Tolsome>	see you, bye
[19:29:45] <[AMB]Tolsome>	and a big thank you for your help
[19:30:25] <Preforx>	I have a problem. If i want to upload a file, it says no rights.... the folder images has chmod 755 atm. but i want to ask you, which is the system standart upload folder (php) and which rights it needs...
[19:30:38] <Preforx>	or its better to make a new one? where i have to place it then?
[19:31:19] <wikibugs>	03(mod) array of boring event types to exclude from recentchanges - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18364  +comment (10mikelifeguard)
[19:35:15] <Duesentrieb>	leafnode: ping
[19:35:49] <RoanKattouw>	Preforx: Making a new dir won't solve anything, just make sure your MW settings and permissions are right
[19:35:52] <RoanKattouw>	!upload
[19:35:52] --mwbot--	File uploads are disabled per default, set $wgEnableUploads=true to enable it. See <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Configuring_file_uploads> for configuration details, <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Managing_files> and <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Images> for using uploaded images and other files.
[19:36:14] <Preforx>	it is on true right now....
[19:36:35] <RoanKattouw>	(see also the links)
[19:36:42] <RoanKattouw>	Especially the first one
[19:36:56] <^demon>	Someone have a URL to the logs for the channel?
[19:36:56] <Preforx>	does i havce to give the wikiuser rights on the server for tmp dir ?
[19:37:50] <Splarka>	^demon: topic
[19:38:08] *RoanKattouw 	WTFs
[19:38:14] <^demon>	Splarka: Yes, not in topic.
[19:38:14] <Preforx>	or which user needs rights... arr its so hard if you arnt good in such things :(
[19:38:16] <RoanKattouw>	Preforx: Apache needs the rights
[19:38:16] <Splarka>	ack
[19:38:20] <^demon>	Splarka: Was trying to find the last topic.
[19:38:23] <Preforx>	ah okay
[19:38:35] <Splarka>	didn't even notice the troll did that, heh
[19:38:36] <^demon>	Splarka: Thanks.
[19:38:42] <RoanKattouw>	Yay, it didn't even get cut off this time
[19:38:58] <Splarka>	RoanKattouw: depends on nick/host length
[19:39:09] <^demon>	I'm adding it to [[mw:IRC]]
[19:39:11] <Splarka>	people with shorter nicks, userids, and hosts, can set longer topics
[19:39:24] <RoanKattouw>	lol
[19:39:25] <Splarka>	^demon: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_channels
[19:39:28] <Splarka>	could add it there too
[19:39:33] <Preforx>	mh dont have a apache user on my server :>
[19:39:39] <Splarka>	RoanKattouw: no, really, because IRC packets are limited to 512 bytes, including all that, heh
[19:39:40] <RoanKattouw>	Nicknames are limited in length, though, so that couldn't cost too many bytes
[19:39:49] <RoanKattouw>	Hostname is what probably kills you
[19:39:55] <Splarka>	yah
[19:40:10] *Splarka 	doesn't remember if /topic sends it all, but privmsg does
[19:40:14] <flyingparchment>	also, you can set longer topics on shorter channels
[19:40:27] <Splarka>	that's what she said
[19:40:40] <flyingparchment>	but it might still get truncated for users on servers with long names
[19:40:41] <Splarka>	flying: remember offhand if /topic includes userid@host ?
[19:40:46] <flyingparchment>	don't you love irc?
[19:40:53] <flyingparchment>	Splarka: i am pretty sure it does, but i don't have the server source here to check
[19:40:54] <Splarka>	more than skype, yes
[19:41:06] <RoanKattouw>	Does having a cloak help?
[19:41:10] <MZMcBride>	More than Skype. Hah.
[19:41:16] <flyingparchment>	[8] <- [:flyingparchment!i=river@loreley.flyingparchment.org.uk TOPIC #rivertest :sdfjh]
[19:41:17] <Splarka>	if it is shorter than your host, yah
[19:41:29] <Splarka>	heh
[19:41:34] <Splarka>	so, yah, ^ that
[19:42:04] <Splarka>	I'd be [:Splarka!i=splarka@wikia/Splarka TOPIC ...
[19:42:20] <flyingparchment>	without the [ though, that's just from my client's debug output ;)
[19:42:30] <MZMcBride>	Can hostmasks include Unicode like some URLs can now?
[19:42:31] <Splarka>	you be [:RoanKattouw!n=chatzill@wikimedia/Catrope TOPIC ...
[19:42:34] <MZMcBride>	What happens if you try...
[19:42:42] <flyingparchment>	MZMcBride: sort of.  URLs don't exactly have unicode
[19:42:47] <Splarka>	heh
[19:42:55] <Splarka>	in FF3 they do
[19:43:01] <flyingparchment>	MZMcBride: they have a string that looks like x-sdfhskdjfhdsf.com and the gargabe is a special form of Unicode encoding into ASCII
[19:43:07] *RoanKattouw 	remembers how special chars in Avar's name used to break MW on certain installs
[19:43:13] <MZMcBride>	Ah, okay.
[19:43:18] <flyingparchment>	so you can have an x-sdflsdf.com hostname on IRC, but no clients (that i know of) will decode it as unicode
[19:43:28] <Splarka>	flying: tell that to the people pasting ->.com urls here, X_X
[19:43:37] <MZMcBride>	Hah.
[19:43:53] <Splarka>	(domas and werdna so far...?)
[19:43:56] <flyingparchment>	Splarka: well, what i mean is URLs have Unicode, but DNS doesn't
[19:44:03] <Splarka>	ahh, yah
[19:44:22] <Splarka>	that won't resolve in your hostmask
[19:44:33] <Splarka>	unless freenode supports unicode cloaks at some future date
[19:44:52] <flyingparchment>	i don't think even freenode are that retarded.. but you never know
[19:45:06] <^demon>	flyingparchment: What about rfc 3490?
[19:45:12] <MZMcBride>	I just imagine services trying to ban a hostmask with Unicode in it and clients everywhere weeping...
[19:45:20] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Microsoft SQL Server/MSSQL support (tracking) - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9767  (10dj.bauch)
[19:45:43] <flyingparchment>	^demon: that doesn't add Unicode to DNS, it uses the scheme i just described, where the Unicode is encoded in punycode (an ASCII wrapper for Unicode), creating a hostname that looks like x-sdkfhsdfds.com
[19:46:14] <^demon>	flyingparchment: Ah ok I understand now.
[19:46:41] <flyingparchment>	ah, according to wikipedia it's actually xn--sdfsdjfh.com
[19:46:54] <flyingparchment>	https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Punycode
[19:47:26] <Splarka>	hmm
[19:47:30] <Splarka>	http://➡.ws/퇃
[19:48:01] <Splarka>	comes out as http://xn-hgi.ws but going to http://xn-hgi.ws/%ED%87%83 doesn't work, so it must check the hosts header.. annoying
[19:49:06] <^demon>	Splarka: You're good at finding dupes. Isn't 17309 a dupe of ...something?
[19:49:27] <Splarka>	http://tinyarrow.ws/%ED%87%83 probably works though (site stopped responding to me)
[19:49:35] *Splarka 	looks
[19:49:41] <Splarka>	that does sound very familiar
[19:49:46] <Nikerabbit>	dupe of wontfix? :o
[19:49:54] <wikibugs>	14(DUP) Deleted Redirects still showing up. - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18402  +comment (10innocentkiller)
[19:49:57] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Page deletions after move do not update relevant table(s) thus nonexistent pages are shown on other special pages - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15655  +comment (10innocentkiller)
[19:50:01] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Microsoft SQL Server/MSSQL support (tracking) - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9767  +comment (10dj.bauch)
[19:50:02] <Splarka>	... probably a very badly named bug like 'access control ownership proprietary flibble'
[19:50:23] <^demon>	Nikerabbit: I never mind duping to WONTFIX. :)
[19:51:07] *Splarka 	waits for advanced search to load
[19:51:20] *Nikerabbit 	waits Splarka to load
[19:51:45] *Splarka 	cues porn music
[19:52:57] <Nikerabbit>	cue?
[19:54:08] <Splarka>	^demon: I already searched for a dupe on this I see, and 14325 was the closest
[19:54:54] <Splarka>	per comment #4 it would mean they were the only author, which would be a dupe of that
[19:55:25] <Splarka>	Nikerabbit: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cue#Verb
[19:55:31] <^demon>	Splarka: I'm thinking WONTFIX on the "allow users to delete own articles."
[19:55:58] <Nikerabbit>	not for core at least
[19:56:02] <Splarka>	well, I think a combination of 17309 and 14325 might be feasable
[19:56:03] <MZMcBride>	Make it a configurable variable with a default to off.
[19:56:17] <MZMcBride>	It's reasonable for certain wiki setups.
[19:56:18] <Nikerabbit>	MZMcBride: we already have too many configuration variables
[19:56:18] <Splarka>	condition: page in user namespace, user is only author: delete allowed
[19:56:33] <Splarka>	scenario: user talk page has other convo on it: no delete!
[19:56:34] <MZMcBride>	Nikerabbit: And too many extensions. ;-)
[19:56:49] <Splarka>	scenario: user can't delete pages by moving them to their namespace and deleting (main reason to wontfix 17309)
[19:57:27] <Splarka>	make a new right, heh
[19:57:33] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Set $wgRemoveGroups['bureaucrat'][] = 'sysop' on enwiki - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18390  (10happy-melon)
[19:57:48] <Splarka>	['deleteownpages']
[19:58:00] <Nikerabbit>	make it a gadget!
[19:58:02] <Splarka>	then users could delete subpages, their user page, user talk, subpages of talk
[19:58:10] <Splarka>	if they were the only author
[19:58:15] <RoanKattouw>	And users with the move right could delete any page
[19:58:29] <Splarka>	not sure how to handle moved pages... like if you moved an article to your user namespace that you were the only author of
[19:58:35] <Simetrical>	I don't see why we can't self-deletion in core.
[19:58:36] <RoanKattouw>	(if they're the only author, bah)
[19:58:47] <Splarka>	possibly prevent any deletion of pages that have been moved
[19:58:47] <Simetrical>	Configurably.
[19:58:51] <Simetrical>	Oh, that's a good point.
[19:59:00] <Splarka>	or cross-namespace moved
[19:59:17] <Simetrical>	Yeah, seems like more of an extension thing.
[19:59:46] <Splarka>	WONTFIX 17309, repurpose 14325 and move it to 'extension requests' ?
[20:00:03] <RoanKattouw>	Then at least dupe 17309 to 14325?
[20:01:11] <Splarka>	but they aren't the same
[20:01:31] <Splarka>	unless jidanni conceeds/agrees with comment 4
[20:01:47] <RoanKattouw>	Isn't 17309 about allowing deletion of own userpages and 14325 about allowing deletion of own pages period?
[20:01:52] <RoanKattouw>	(for some definition of 'own')
[20:01:54] <CIA-78>	03raymond * r49322 10/trunk/phase3/languages/messages/MessagesEn.php: Revert part of r49320: Accidently committed half done stuff
[20:02:36] <Simetrical>	Is there a meaningful difference if you can move pages?
[20:02:56] <Splarka>	Simetrical: Newpages gaming
[20:02:59] <RoanKattouw>	No, which is why they should be duped IMO
[20:03:08] <Splarka>	create a page, move it to userpsace, delete it, ugly
[20:03:31] <Splarka>	anywho, re-reading it, it does seem like a dupe
[20:03:47] <RoanKattouw>	The entry *should* disappear if it does that by pageid/rc_cur_id
[20:04:11] <Splarka>	hmm, didn't last time I tried it, but that was months ago
[20:05:34] <Preforx>	!upload
[20:05:34] --mwbot--	File uploads are disabled per default, set $wgEnableUploads=true to enable it. See <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Configuring_file_uploads> for configuration details, <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Managing_files> and <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Images> for using uploaded images and other files.
[20:05:48] <wikibugs>	14(DUP) Allow users to delete their own pages - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17309  +comment (10herd)
[20:05:50] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Admin functions for (autoconfirmed) users - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14325  +comment (10herd)
[20:06:47] <Preforx>	okay
[20:07:23] <Splarka>	^demon: happy? heh
[20:07:59] <Preforx>	i dont know what to do. /.../mywiki/images has chmod 755. upload is true in php.ini and localsettings stuff .... but i cant upload. i also dont know what i have to do with apache. i dont have user apache on server. have root and another one.... ;(
[20:08:10] <RoanKattouw>	What errors do you get?
[20:15:24] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Microsoft SQL Server/MSSQL support (tracking) - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9767  (10alex.emsenhuber)
[20:16:16] <Preforx>	one moment
[20:16:24] <Preforx>	have to translate into english :D
[20:18:03] <Preforx>	Internal Error: The Webserver dont have rights for writing into the upload-dir (public)
[20:20:03] <wikibugs>	04(REOPENED) {{SECTIONNUMBER}} - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18398  +comment (10wpuser)
[20:23:43] <Nikerabbit>	uh
[20:23:55] <Nikerabbit>	do we really need drivings license for bugzilla
[20:24:15] <Reedy>	A simple test would be good
[20:24:22] <Splarka>	heh
[20:24:39] <Reedy>	Let me guess, 18398 hasn't been scapped in?
[20:24:46] <Nikerabbit>	can someone use some cluebat to wpuser :o
[20:24:57] <Nikerabbit>	Reedy: it was marked as duplicate
[20:24:59] <Splarka>	"When would you undupe a bug: ( ) if the problem still exists ( ) if the target of the dupe is closed, wontfixed, or invalid ( ) if you're a dumbass ( ) none of the above"
[20:26:13] <wikibugs>	14(DUP) {{SECTIONNUMBER}} - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18398  +comment (10skizzerz)
[20:26:16] <wikibugs>	03(mod) [[Section::...]] variables - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1605  (10skizzerz)
[20:34:04] <brion>	ok, time to go through my svn committer queue :D
[20:34:14] <brion>	anybody think you've been forgotten? :)
[20:35:19] <Aaron|away>	brion: soo, how about that new search UI?
[20:35:31] <Preforx>	Sorry its really important atm.... Question Again, hope you can help me: /.../mywiki/images has chmod 755. upload is true in php.ini and localsettings stuff .... but i cant upload. i also dont know what i have to do with apache. i dont have user apache on server. have root and another one.... ;(: Error: Internal Error: The Webserver dont have rights for writing into the upload-dir (public)
[20:35:47] <brion>	Aaron|away: there's a few minor bugs which trevor has on his list after talking w/ folks at berlin
[20:36:33] <Preforx>	does my tmp dir also needs chmod 755 ?
[20:37:50] <Preforx>	drwxrwxrwt atm has my /tmp dir. is this the default one which php uses?
[20:37:52] <Simetrical>	Preforx, 755 is not usually enough for your webserver to write.
[20:38:05] <Simetrical>	/tmp is always 777 unless your system is seriously messed up.
[20:38:20] <Simetrical>	Set your wiki's upload directory to 777 and you should be fine.
[20:38:34] <Preforx>	also the folder /images ?
[20:38:40] <Preforx>	not only /tmp dir
[20:40:09] <Preforx>	? mh try it okay
[20:41:29] <Preforx>	if it dont work, you will see me again XD
[20:41:31] <Preforx>	thanks
[20:47:14] <simonrvn>	i didn't bother filing that bug, i figured it was a PEBKAC error...
[20:50:13] <^demon>	Nikerabbit: Agree on the required test. I think "Find a dupe of X bug" should be enough.
[20:58:31] <wikibugs>	03(mod) [[Section::...]] variables - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1605  (10wpuser)
[21:01:25] <wikibugs>	14(INVALID) Augment (or replace) wgNonincludableNamespaces with userCan - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18395  +comment (10innocentkiller)
[21:01:39] <^demon>	Why does he think that should be fixed (bug 1605?) was it marked FIXED anywhere?
[21:02:41] <Nikerabbit>	Skizzerz: you should have used better cluebat :o
[21:02:55] <Skizzerz>	apparantly
[21:03:09] <Skizzerz>	but I'm not a srz bugzilla admonin so my cluebat skillz are limited
[21:03:29] <Skizzerz>	and somehow writing "YOU ARE RETARDED" isn't good for my P.R.
[21:03:44] *^demon 	hands Skizzerz a steel-reinforced-cluebat
[21:05:17] <CIA-78>	03aaron * r49323 10/trunk/extensions/CodeReview/CodeReleaseNotes.php: (bug 18167) Code Review page should not render magic words etc.
[21:05:19] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED) Code Review page should not render magic words etc. - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18167  +comment (10JSchulz_4587)
[21:05:25] <Nikerabbit>	admin's magical cluebat [clue power +100%, summons chocolate on praise]
[21:06:19] <Skizzerz>	no cake?
[21:08:14] <Skizzerz>	^demon: actually... having a userCan('read') call on the target page that you are transcluding would be a good idea imo. That way it prevents someone able to edit the main page or something of a closed wiki from transcluding other pages in that wiki to view their content
[21:08:46] <Nikerabbit>	Skizzerz: caching...
[21:09:10] <Skizzerz>	Nikerabbit: huh?
[21:09:33] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Must differentiate 'specialpage(s)' in all languages - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18403 normal; Normal; MediaWiki: Internationalization; (jidanni)
[21:09:33] <^demon>	Skizzerz: It breaks the cache. What if you can read it and I can't. Can't cache it.
[21:09:39] <Splarka>	preview? preload? expandtemplates? api action=render? sounds like a long way to go before it can be trusted
[21:10:50] <^demon>	What the hell is Jidanni talking about? I don't even understand.
[21:11:06] <Nikerabbit>	    1.  use a text browser or any non-CSS device -- and,
[21:11:29] <Nikerabbit>	who the fuck says that text browser can't (couldn't?) read and use css
[21:12:01] <^demon>	My browser renders text and CSS :)
[21:13:12] <Aaron|away>	wow
[21:13:33] <Aaron|away>	:p
[21:14:23] <^demon>	Nikerabbit: I've noticed that a good number of Jidanni's bugs require you to use a text browser.
[21:14:59] <Nikerabbit>	^demon: and espeacially one that doesn't support CSS
[21:16:49] <Preforx>	thanks for chmod 777 tipp! works now gave it images folder
[21:17:24] <OverlordQ>	where's this 'views' sidebar he's talking about?
[21:18:12] <^demon>	OverlordQ: That's about where he lost me.
[21:18:16] <Skizzerz>	I think that's the Standard skin
[21:18:24] <Skizzerz>	or something
[21:18:31] <Skizzerz>	not monobook or modern at any rate
[21:18:44] <^demon>	So, 1) Use a text browser (that doesn't support CSS), 2) Use standard skin
[21:18:50] <^demon>	What other absurd requirement do I have.
[21:19:14] <Splarka>	it is in the monobook-derived skins without css
[21:19:20] <Splarka>	myskin mainly
[21:19:32] <Skizzerz>	^demon: 3) Be unable to differentiate between singular and plural forms of words
[21:19:47] <Simetrical>	We should support text-only browsers.
[21:19:48] <Nikerabbit>	lol
[21:19:53] <Splarka>		<div id="p-cactions" class="portlet">
[21:19:54] <Nikerabbit>	^demon: and only in simple skin
[21:19:57] <Splarka>			<h5>Views</h5>
[21:20:05] <Simetrical>	Skizzerz, that's common among Chinese people, I think.  Chinese doesn't have singulars and plurals.
[21:20:17] <Simetrical>	And yeah, Views is one of the headers in Monobook, it's hidden by CSS.
[21:20:28] <Simetrical>	Using text browsers is fun, anyway!
[21:20:37] <OverlordQ>	ah
[21:20:45] <^demon>	But it doesn't say "Special Pages" under Views, only under Toolbox....
[21:20:47] <Skizzerz>	Simetrical: but don't the mainstream text browsers support css at least to a limited extent?
[21:20:51] <Simetrical>	Skizzerz, no.
[21:20:58] <Simetrical>	At least, lynx certainly doesn't.
[21:21:13] <Nikerabbit>	^demon: this only applies to languages where plurals are not used like in english
[21:21:17] <^demon>	Lynx isn't right now.
[21:21:18] <Simetrical>	What would it support?  It can't do positioning of any kind without having to do a crazy amount of rounding.
[21:21:27] <Skizzerz>	ooh, ooh, I have a simple solution!
[21:21:32] <Skizzerz>	Update $wgBrowserBlacklist :D
[21:21:45] <Simetrical>	They need colors to encode other info, like for emphasis.
[21:21:47] *Simetrical 	slaps Skizzerz 
[21:22:15] <Splarka>	damn, who was I talking about in here the other week about lynx
[21:22:17] <^demon>	I'm still confused about "Special pages" being under "Views"
[21:22:17] <Simetrical>	I guess you could try approximating CSS support in a terminal-based browser, but it would be fairly silly.
[21:22:19] <^demon>	It doesn't work.
[21:22:32] <Nikerabbit>	Simetrical: no it is not silly
[21:22:41] <Splarka>	and how "[x] format red links like this?" was broken because it was CSS only, but only useful for text browsers, that couldn't support it
[21:23:06] <Simetrical>	Nikerabbit, I don't think they *could* support most of it.
[21:23:16] <Simetrical>	They're very restricted in how they can position stuff, for instance.
[21:23:32] <Splarka>	http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/VisitorsSampledLogClients.htm
[21:23:34] <Skizzerz>	^demon: you have to be looking at a special page
[21:23:38] <Simetrical>	"Special page" might be under "Views".
[21:23:39] <Splarka>	I don't even see lynx, does it have another user agent?
[21:23:42] <Skizzerz>	like, go to Special:RecentChanges in lynx
[21:23:44] <Simetrical>	Just like "Article", "Discussion".
[21:23:47] <^demon>	Ah ok I know what he means now.
[21:23:49] <Splarka>	yah, nstab
[21:23:56] <Simetrical>	It's a kind of weird name.
[21:24:00] <Splarka>	ns-tab, n-stab
[21:24:33] <Simetrical>	I always think of it as n-stab.
[21:24:54] <Splarka>	noob stab
[21:24:58] <^demon>	Ah ok. I see how that could possibly be confusing in a language that doesn't use plurals.
[21:25:05] <Splarka>	heh
[21:25:17] <Splarka>	'This'
[21:25:26] <Nikerabbit>	Simetrical: it is not nstat-special
[21:25:38] <Simetrical>	Nikerabbit, ?
[21:25:44] <Splarka>	hmm, can someone grep the last few weeks of toolserver.org/~amidaniel/chanlogs/%23mediawiki/  for "Lynx" ?
[21:26:37] <Nikerabbit>	fuq fuq fuq
[21:26:41] <Nikerabbit>	who disabled qqq...
[21:26:48] *Splarka 	is wondering if it was jidanni who he talked to
[21:26:49] <AaronSchulz>	where?
[21:27:02] <^demon>	Splarka: Jidanni came to #mediawiki?
[21:27:20] <Splarka>	^demon: grep the logs for me, lets find out, heh
[21:27:27] <^demon>	No thanks.
[21:27:37] <Splarka>	why do you hate America?
[21:28:23] <Nikerabbit>	or is it
[21:28:44] <Skizzerz>	asdfghjkl
[21:28:49] <Simetrical>	/home/amidaniel/public_html/chanlogs/#mediawiki/20090325.txt:[09:41:13] <saper>	Well fine, w3m or lynx are perfectly usable (even for Commons heh) except for that
[21:28:50] <Simetrical>	/home/amidaniel/public_html/chanlogs/#mediawiki/20090325.txt:[09:41:50] *Splarka 	accidentally edited in lynx once, because he didn't know how to tab over to 'preview'
[21:28:50] <Simetrical>	/home/amidaniel/public_html/chanlogs/#mediawiki/20090325.txt:[09:48:30] <Splarka>	is there anything that can be done non-inline for such links other than changing the html (in lynx/w3m)?
[21:28:53] <Skizzerz>	zomg
[21:28:58] <Skizzerz>	gmoz
[21:29:02] <Skizzerz>	omgz
[21:29:04] <Splarka>	<3 Simetrical
[21:29:38] <AaronSchulz>	brion: these Core i7s make me drool
[21:29:43] <Splarka>	<saper>	My unfounded guess is that "?" done via CSS is useless. Those who really need it, don't have it. Others use the default.
[21:29:46] <Splarka>	okay, it was just saper
[21:29:55] <Splarka>	saper: you aren't jidanni are you?
[21:30:29] <Splarka>	Nikerabbit: http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki?view=rev&revision=47138
[21:30:33] <Simetrical>	Wait, we do ? with CSS?
[21:30:38] <Splarka>	yes
[21:30:39] <Splarka>	lame innit
[21:30:39] <Simetrical>	Like, generated content?
[21:30:43] <Simetrical>	That doesn't even work in IE7 . . .
[21:30:44] <Splarka>	no, prefs js
[21:30:49] <Splarka>	:after
[21:30:56] <Splarka>	well, unless that's what you mean
[21:30:58] <Splarka>	in which case, yes!
[21:31:00] <wikibugs>	03(mod) array of boring event types to exclude from recentchanges - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18364  (10jidanni)
[21:31:00] <Simetrical>	I mean CSS generated content.
[21:31:02] <Simetrical>	. .  .
[21:31:03] <Simetrical>	. . .
[21:31:05] <Simetrical>	That's retarded.
[21:31:07] <Splarka>	hey, the print does that too
[21:31:09] <brion>	mmm, nehalem
[21:31:27] <Splarka>	Simetrical: grep /skins/common for :after
[21:31:45] <brion>	"The Core i7 does not support error-correcting memory." o_O
[21:31:53] <Skizzerz>	doesn't Skin.php create that bit?
[21:31:57] <AaronSchulz>	brion: the 940 is kind of overpriced though
[21:32:05] <Skizzerz>	generateUserStyleSheet() or something like that?
[21:32:18] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Must differentiate 'specialpage(s)' in all languages - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18403  (10niklas.laxstrom)
[21:32:23] <Splarka>	   173: #content a.external.text:after, #content a.external.autonumber:after {
[21:32:42] *Simetrical 	wtfs
[21:32:49] <Splarka>	feed.css, commonPrint.css... few other offenders
[21:33:00] *Simetrical 	needs to do some research on whether anyone actually uses that
[21:33:11] *Simetrical 	could probably grep the user table now that he's toolserver root, mwahaha
[21:33:16] <Nikerabbit>	didn't domas just do that
[21:33:32] <Splarka>	yah
[21:33:33] <Splarka>	sec
[21:33:52] <wikibugs>	03(mod) array of boring event types to exclude from recentchanges - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18364  +comment (10innocentkiller)
[21:34:23] <AaronSchulz>	brion: it's about .33 Ghz faster for $470 more, with the same architecture
[21:34:30] <^demon>	Simetrical: Come up with a list of how many people use each preference, and it'll give a ripe list of crappy ones to just turn into sane defaults.
[21:34:35] <Splarka>	   6808 highlightbroken=0
[21:34:35] <Splarka>	9248793 highlightbroken=1
[21:34:45] <Simetrical>	Maybe wait till werdna's done with his preferences work.
[21:34:50] <AaronSchulz>	w.r.t. the 920
[21:35:55] <Nikerabbit>	Splarka: sounds like a candidate for removal
[21:36:08] <Nikerabbit>	Splarka: if it is pure css, gadget for those who want it?
[21:36:09] *Splarka 	rubs hands together gleefully
[21:36:14] <Splarka>	yah
[21:36:22] <Splarka>	problem is, per saper above
[21:36:28] <Splarka>	useful for lynx, but doesn't work in it
[21:36:41] <Skizzerz>	still, killing feature creep ftw
[21:36:44] <Splarka>	you'd have to invert it, make the ? part of the source, and hide it in css
[21:37:04] <Nikerabbit>	lynx doesn't support colors?
[21:37:15] <AaronSchulz>	brion: I wonder how important ECC is for home PCs
[21:37:25] <Skizzerz>	what about the jackass that then appends ? to the end of non-broken links just to mess with those people?
[21:37:30] <Nikerabbit>	Splarka: anyway, can't they see link targets.. the redlink=1 should give it up
[21:37:40] <^demon>	Skizzerz: Then back the jackass.
[21:37:43] <^demon>	*ban
[21:37:43] <Splarka>	Nikerabbit: dunno, see that log
[21:37:50] <Reedy>	AaronSchulz, most people [dw]ont use it, as its usually a lot more expesnive
[21:38:09] <Splarka>	http://toolserver.org/~amidaniel/chanlogs/%23mediawiki/20090325.txt  around [09:42:53]
[21:38:13] <Nikerabbit>	Splarka: not interested
[21:38:23] <Splarka>	 == lazy
[21:38:30] <Splarka>	Nikerabbit: did you see the rev breaking qqq?
[21:38:57] <Nikerabbit>	Splarka: pardon?
[21:39:26] <Splarka>	<Nikerabbit> who disabled qqq... -> http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki?view=rev&revision=47138
[21:39:28] <AaronSchulz>	http://www.intel.com/support/processors/sb/CS-029913.htm
[21:39:35] <Nikerabbit>	yeah I know that
[21:39:38] <Splarka>	k
[21:39:41] <AaronSchulz>	'This is due to the price premium and extremely low likelihood of a data error occurring even on memory not utilizing ECC.'
[21:39:46] <Nikerabbit>	in general not a bad change
[21:39:50] <Nikerabbit>	just making life harder for me
[21:40:19] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Also commit mail for lock/unlock - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18366  (10brion)
[21:41:24] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Import strips angle brackets on some installations (libxml2 entity bug) - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16554  (10brion)
[21:41:47] *Splarka 	takes bugzilla away from brion and hands him codereview
[21:42:15] <Skizzerz>	toy switch?
[21:42:39] <Splarka>	unless CIA-78 is just playing 'possum... hmm
[21:43:20] <Skizzerz>	idle ~17 mins
[21:43:50] <Skizzerz>	of course, that's in general
[21:43:59] <Splarka>	yah, last was 49323, and there is no 49324
[21:43:59] *saper 	does not know what a jidanni is
[21:44:06] <Splarka>	saper: good!
[21:45:08] <saper>	Simetrical: w3m renders mediawiki interface quite nicely
[21:45:22] <saper>	except for those redlinks
[21:46:44] <Splarka>	so how would you differentiate redlinks without color or css, in a way that wasn't easily spoofable via text?
[21:47:43] <Simetrical>	saper, it's a CSS-based text browser?
[21:47:55] <Splarka>	(other than, yknow, changing the content to physically add '?' after them for that user option, which is sorta done with other options (like TOC), but not so drastically)
[21:49:38] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Red Links for Userpage/Talk - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18270  (10scd)
[21:49:39] <saper>	Simetrical: no
[21:49:47] <saper>	it's HTML-only, but it renders tables
[21:49:54] <Simetrical>	Mm.
[21:49:58] <saper>	and tries to lay them out nicely
[21:49:58] <Simetrical>	Is there a text browser that does CSS?
[21:50:04] <Simetrical>	There's a media type for it . . .
[21:50:13] <saper>	Simetrical: maybe some elinks variants I don't know
[21:51:37] <saper>	no elinks does not
[21:52:20] <saper>	thay say "experimental"
[21:53:02] <saper>	Splarka: I can't differentiate, that's why I need "?" in HTML
[21:53:23] <saper>	maybe <font color> works 
[21:54:19] <saper>	nope it does not
[21:55:24] <domas>	tadaaaaam
[22:03:43] <wikibugs>	03(mod) Also commit mail for lock/unlock - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18366  (10siebrand)
[22:20:34] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Select from Kategorie - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18404 enhancement; Normal; MediaWiki extensions: Semantic MediaWiki; (dasch_87)
[22:23:20] <AaronSchulz>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_random_access_memory#Errors_and_error_correction
[22:23:39] <AaronSchulz>	brion: hmm 12 errors on month on a 12Gb box? :S
[22:25:34] <brion>	! scarry
[22:30:24] <wikibugs>	03(FIXED) Cleanup of products - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18384  +comment (10brion)
[22:37:21] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Template date format problem - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18405 enhancement; Normal; MediaWiki extensions: Semantic MediaWiki; (Neoshinji)
[22:40:03] <^demon>	brion: Thanks. That was the only one I could think of right then. Unless dbzip2 has gone the way of the dodo.
[22:41:05] <brion>	well it's still there if anybody wants it :D
[22:42:44] <^demon>	Why does Wiktionary tools have a product? I never did understand that.
[22:43:48] <brion>	cause a dude maintaining them asked for it
[22:43:55] <brion>	what's not to understand? :)
[22:44:14] <^demon>	It seemed too purpose-specific I guess.
[22:44:46] <Splarka>	can "Things Splarka Hates" be a product?
[22:45:02] <^demon>	A tag would suit you better.
[22:45:09] <Splarka>	you're a tag
[23:02:41] <wikibugs>	03(mod) [[Section::...]] variables - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1605  (10nyphbl8d)
[23:06:47] <KennyMan666>	Hm... I had a problem with individual section edit links not being what they should be, but rather than fixing that, I realized I want to get rid of them completely... and I can't figure out exactly where I need to poke to do this. I found something about "NOSECTIONEDIT", but can't figure out where that's supposed to go.
[23:09:37] <Splarka>	add the text __NOEDITSECTION__ to a page and the sections won't get edit links
[23:10:15] <KennyMan666>	Oh, that's nly for individual pages?
[23:10:23] <Splarka>	yah
[23:10:41] <Splarka>	you could change the default user option too: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgDefaultUserOptions
[23:10:43] <KennyMan666>	I want them gone for every page, so then that's not when I'm looking for
[23:11:01] <Splarka>	$wgDefaultUserOptions ['editsection'] = 0;
[23:11:23] <Splarka>	but people who already have that option in their preferences will still see them (and others can enable them)
[23:12:33] <KennyMan666>	The problem I do have with them is that they show up to the left of the section titles in the same font size as the section titles in the default skin. I think I know when and why it happened, but I can't figure out how to FIX it.
[23:12:59] <KennyMan666>	(default skin in this case not being monobook.)
[23:13:16] <Splarka>	ahh, well you just have to style them
[23:13:24] <Splarka>	what do you want them to look like?
[23:14:13] <KennyMan666>	It started happeneing after... actually, I think it was after the reinstall, and I simply copied the old main.css that was based on a previous version... if I recall correctly...
[23:14:53] <Splarka>	the class is "editsection" so look for .editsection in the main.css
[23:14:59] <KennyMan666>	It was a while ago. Well, if they're to be there at all, the first step is to have them be neatly to the far right of the section titles, in a smaller font. Like on the mediawiki wiki, y'know.
[23:16:04] <Splarka>	http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/monobook/main.css
[23:16:04] <Splarka>	http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/shared.css
[23:16:19] <KennyMan666>	Well, I have * html div.editsection { font-size: smaller; }...
[23:16:50] <Splarka>	right, but there is more
[23:16:52] <Splarka>	http://p.defau.lt/?qp1A_3ICOceY8NvLJmRM0g
[23:17:13] <Splarka>	maybe your non-monobook skin isn't loading shared.css?
[23:17:40] <Splarka>	if all else fails, .editsection {display:none;}, heh
[23:19:37] <wikibugs>	14(INVALID) Special:GlobalGroupPermissions is not listed as a restricted special page (but it) - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17603  +comment (10techman224)
[23:20:31] <KennyMan666>	But yeah, that main.css you linked me to has stuff that's nowhere obe found in mine
[23:20:48] <wikibugs>	03(NEW) Ghostpages - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18406 major; Normal; MediaWiki extensions: Semantic MediaWiki; (dasch_87)
[23:20:49] <KennyMan666>	I should probably grab that one and remake mine so it's up to date
[23:21:58] <KennyMan666>	It's really nothing more than a monobook edit
[23:23:40] <KennyMan666>	Also, this will be easier with a text editor with highlighting...
[23:28:01] <Splarka>	heh
[23:31:43] <KennyMan666>	This is gonna take a while.
[23:34:16] <KennyMan666>	But I guess I'll just do this, one code block at a time
[23:35:09] <lymeca>	Hey guys... I am on 1.13.0rc1 (I'll upgrade soon) but the search engine is TERRIBLE!
[23:35:10] <KennyMan666>	I could probably figure out what should change to what and make a search-and-replace, but where's the fun in that, really
[23:35:13] <lymeca>	Is there a way to upgrade it?
[23:35:28] <lymeca>	Also, is there a way to put HTML into wikis?
[23:36:34] <Reedy>	You can (and should) upgrade from 1.13 to at least 1.13.5
[23:36:36] <Reedy>	if not 1.14
[23:38:29] <lymeca>	I will try to go to 1.14 yes
[23:38:37] <lymeca>	Will this improve the search engine?
[23:39:00] *Splarka 	casts summon rainman-sr
[23:39:27] <rainman-sr>	no because you will still be using mysql, so try sphinx plugin for instance
[23:39:50] *rainman-sr 	goes to sleep
[23:43:06] <brion>	:D
[23:43:33] <brion>	search is slightly better in 1.14 (handles short words by default now) but it's still kinda flaky :D
[23:43:45] <brion>	mysql's search index is... not the greatest
[23:44:06] <lymeca>	So how do I improve it?
[23:44:42] <lymeca>	Ahh Sphinx maybe...
[23:44:53] <werdna>	hey hey
[23:45:37] <brion>	howdyyyy
[23:48:14] <lymeca>	Okay so any word on how to add HTML to pages?
[23:48:26] <lymeca>	I see an extension like this: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SecureHTML
[23:48:35] <lymeca>	But I want HTML on all pages, not just protected ones!
[23:49:59] <KennyMan666>	...huh. A codeblock that's not there anymore.
[23:50:14] <KennyMan666>	Unless it's just moved.
[23:53:35] <werdna>	!html | lymeca 
[23:53:35] --mwbot--	lymeca: For allowing any and all HTML, see <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:%24wgRawHtml>. This is of course VERY DANGEROUS. Safer options include <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:HTMLets>, <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:RawMsg> and <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SecureHTML>.
[23:55:49] <lymeca>	Is there a way then to automatically notify me (and other admins) when people add html tags with RawHTML?
[23:56:33] <Skizzerz>	no
[23:56:53] <Skizzerz>	if you don't trust your editors, then don't enable it
[23:57:34] <Skizzerz>	use one of the extensions instead that let you control what may be used
[23:58:36] <lymeca>	Okay well can I disable javascript then?
[23:59:09] <Skizzerz>	why do you need html anyway?
[23:59:32] <Skizzerz>	the vast majority of your potential use cases could probably be accomplsihed with the default subset of html and wiki markup available to you