[00:00:09] that works if i make a custom PHP [00:00:36] yes, it's possible to make update.php execute arbitrary PHP code [00:01:47] * rillke wanted to use the structure at includes/installer/MssqlUpdater.php [00:03:08] which approach do you recommend? Some template SQL and PHP code iterating over it? [00:03:19] *custom PHP code [00:04:41] in the getCoreUpdateList function, you can add in a callback, e.g. add in array( 'callbackName' ) [00:04:52] then add a new function in MssqlUpdater called callbackName and insert the custom PHP code there [00:05:40] great stuff :) [00:05:44] thank you [00:06:08] np [00:06:23] thank you for catching the issue :) [00:06:50] (and for being willing to work on it, as it probably would've taken me a good week or two before I had the time to do it myself) [04:55:08] Is it possible to create a usergroup that has all the rights another group as (Like in DefaultSettings.php), and then add/take away rights from there? [04:56:20] Like, let's say I want a group "Super-Users" that can do a bit more than normal users can - How would I? [04:56:58] create a group named super-users that has your extra rights ($wgGroupPermissions['super']['extra-right'] = true; ), and you can also use $wgRevokedRights (I think) to remove rights [04:57:06] the user would then be in both the super-user group and the normal user group [04:57:32] it's $wgRevokePermissions - https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgRevokePermissions [04:58:33] Not exactly my point - I mean, could I copy all of the settings from one group has and apply it to another (Rather than retyping everything?) [04:59:05] I'd rather keep users in one group at a time, even if they share rights. [04:59:27] ok, well then that's not possible without just copying all the configuration code [09:01:26] Does anyone know why the Approved Revs extension would slow down a page load by seconds? [09:04:57] What does WP use for revision approval? [09:06:05] !e FlaggedRevs | darkangel [09:06:29] legoktm: That's what WP uses? [09:06:34] yup [09:06:43] legoktm: Thanks. [09:06:52] you can see it listed on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Version [09:06:59] Hallo. Is there any way to get a page, especially a redirect, not to appear as an auto-completion result in the search box? Like, add a magic word or a category? [09:07:38] I was asked about it in the Hebrew Wikipedia. I faintly recall such a thing, but don't remember what it was exactly. And maybe I'm just imagining. [10:00:36] I am trying to install FlaggedRevs, but I get "PHP Fatal error: Class 'FlaggedRevsStats' not found in ..." when I try to run updateStats.php ... where is this class supposed to be loaded? I only see $IP/maintenance/Maintenance.php being required. [10:03:38] Looks like the extension has to be enabled first, sh*t documentation. [10:04:08] PHP Catchable fatal error: Argument 3 passed to FlaggedRevsSetup::defineSourcePaths() must be of the type array, null given [10:04:09] pffft [10:21:46] I had a 1.23 version of the extension by mistake. [11:58:57] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Installing_MediaWiki#Prepare_the_directories [11:59:01] "This step is very important, without preparing the directories, MediaWiki will not function properly." [11:59:24] and then goes no to say absolutely nothing that has to be done. [11:59:59] "Depending on the server configuration, in some cases you have to" [12:00:07] "you can run the command" [12:00:29] mediawiki documentation is... [12:02:07] constantly overshadowed by mediawiki being made for the internal / undocumented usage by WMF. [12:02:46] :D [12:03:04] it seems pretty self explanatory to me? [12:03:34] what does? the part where it says this step must be done, then doesn't say anything at all that must be done? [12:07:05] well, that part about must be done was added not too recently, so I will remove it. [12:07:10] IanKelling, the "mediawiki 1.16 needed to be able to write, but no longer required" part? [12:08:09] thats part of what doesn't need to be done [12:08:37] the part i'm removing is saying this step must be done. [12:11:22] It would also help if we didn't have 5 pages on installing MediaWiki [12:12:45] Suggesting to 777 everything seems inappropriate. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Installing_MediaWiki#Prepare_the_directories [12:13:43] yes, that is quite suspect [12:20:03] i'm changing it :) [12:21:31] I have this issue and I just posted some more info: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=59012 [12:21:32] Does anyone know why this might be happening? [12:21:44] Why is the "Article" type not handled? [12:22:50] which person are you in those comments? [12:23:16] oh, the last one, i see [12:26:10] IanKelling: Yep [12:26:30] not really familiar with that extension. If you have access, reopen the bug. if not, file a new one [12:27:05] I'd suggest explaining more clearly what you did to get to the bug happening too [12:27:18] IanKelling: It is reopened. [12:27:30] for example, what method did you use to install the extension [12:43:26] hey i am a new developer and want to contribute to wikimedia [12:44:26] i found this bug easy to fix .. but how to know if that is already addressed or i can work on it [12:44:31] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37362 [12:45:07] See the part where it says "Assigned To: Nobody - You can work on this! " [12:50:04] @IanKelling Yup... okay [14:22:04] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Thread:Project:Current_issues/Installation_guide_consolidation [14:27:10] IanKelling: look what you made me do [14:33:02] I need help!. [14:34:15] I have request a proposal in bugzilla here: [14:34:16] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65245 [14:34:59] It's about adding a new date format in preference. [14:35:28] I told Andre about this problem and he tell me to come here. [14:42:33] Ahmad_Sammour: part of your problem would be easier to solve if the standard Unicode formats included the one you want: http://st.unicode.org/cldr-apps/v#/ar_SY/Generic/ [14:43:17] Ahmad_Sammour: if you send me an email I'll give you permission to translate there meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:emailuser/Nemo_bis [14:51:10] Nemo_bis: Thanks for your reply, I have sent you an e-mail. [14:53:47] Ahmad_Sammour: you should have received a couple account creation emails; please tell me if you can actually edit http://st.unicode.org/cldr-apps/v#/ar_SY/Generic/ , I hope I gave you permission on all ar* locales [14:58:52] Nemo_bis: I have received your e-mails; Thanks. I will try to translate. [14:59:31] Ahmad_Sammour: Thanks. I'm not yet sure what it takes to satisfy the request, but having more data will help. [15:12:03] Ok, I see it worked [15:13:32] eek, did someone invalidate all translations here? https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions [15:16:17] Or the header lies https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:MessageGroupStats&language=it&group=page-Help%3AExtension%3AParserFunctions [15:19:03] No, it's just a bit pessimist in rounding [15:26:17] hrm... [15:26:20] no amgine [15:26:35] so I can't figure out the interwiki thing xe wanted [15:29:59] Nemo_bis? [15:31:27] hellio [15:31:38] my first time here [15:32:01] is there anyone here? [15:41:50] ciao RickyB98 [15:42:05] not you, muky [15:42:13] ciao Nemo_bis :-) ascolta.. [15:42:22] sono tutt'orecchi [15:42:22] ho visto una cosa fighissima su mediawiki.org [15:42:29] Capipta! [15:42:35] -p [15:42:42] ti faceva gestire i permessi degli utenti via web [15:42:59] ma tipo i permessi come se gestissi LocalSettings.php [15:43:18] tipo 'edit' 'bot' 'checkuser' etc [15:43:32] come si chiama l'estensione? [15:47:10] RickyB98: Configure? [15:47:39] boh [15:47:42] dimmelo tu xD [15:48:00] Non ce ne sono molte di alternative :) [15:54:06] ok grazie ^_^ [16:04:12] how to handle sensitive data(like database access/keys, inside the code) when using Github ? [16:06:55] Don't commit it to github. [16:07:20] Use a sample config file and when checking out the code, fill in the sample config file with the actual data. [16:08:00] Name the sample config LocalSettings-template.php or whatever, and when you work with the actual clone, copy LocalSettings-template.php to LocalSettings.php and put the actual stuff in there. [16:09:00] JordiGH: thank you :) [17:12:30] Nemo_bis: I have finished translate the Syrian calender as you want. [17:13:04] Is that enough or there are something else I have to do?. [17:28:57] Ahmad_Sammour: wow, thanks! :) If you're interested there is a lot more to translate there btw. ;) [17:29:28] Let's see what needs doing. [17:32:20] I will be always ready to translate Nemo :) [17:34:25] Ahmad_Sammour: we added 100 new language names to http://st.unicode.org/cldr-apps/v#/ar/Languages/ [17:43:58] Nemo_bis: How can I help in that?. [17:46:46] Ahmad_Sammour: by telling me if this looks correct: ١٧:٤٦، ٢٧ رجب ١٤٣٥ [17:49:31] Nemo_bis:Yes; This format is correct. [17:49:58] Nemo_bis:Are there any formats that you want me to checked?. [18:03:55] hello, i need some help. There is someone who can help me? [18:04:45] Hola, tengo una sería de preguntas para la utilitzación de mediawiki, en un nivel medio-avanzado, hay alguien que pueda echarme una mano? [18:04:55] *serie [18:06:50] !ask | NeedHelp25 [18:12:31] Okay, sorry and thanks. Maybe my Englis is not quite right. I have read that it's possible integrate Active Directory (LDAP) on tikiwiki, but i'm not sur if it's possible to have differents groups of users who can access to certain sections [18:13:27] NeedHelp25: oh. well, i'm afraid i don't know anything about that :(, but stay for a while and maybe someone will reply [18:14:29] okay, thank you very much [18:38:44] Is possible upload a file (like a word) on media wiki? BLOBS can be stored outside of database? [19:03:14] carai, m'heu cuntestat tots arreedeftree [19:04:18] Gods, where's qgil when you need him [19:04:32] NeedHelp25: Hi! If you don't speak english we might have some trouble helping you [19:05:07] Oh, you asked a question earlier [19:05:12] You can totally upload files [19:05:17] !uploads [19:05:22] NeedHelp25: ^^ [19:10:47] !uploads [19:11:15] thank you so much marktraceur!! [19:11:46] !BLOB [19:24:14] !tables.sql [19:30:12] is their a way to add a karma feature for mediawiki [19:30:20] !g karma mediawiki [19:30:25] !karma [20:00:02] anomie: Hi [20:00:15] hi kunalg [20:01:27] anomie: I wanted to ask regarding the API patch, why do you think it will be a problem? The core patch worked fine, except the fact that it doesn't load the language from DB [20:03:58] satdav: what do you mean by karma? [20:04:53] for giving someone praise [20:05:17] !e Thanks [20:05:20] satdav: ^^ [20:05:35] thanks does that work with custom themes [20:05:59] kunalg: ... Ah, I misunderstood the existing code. Will update in gerrit momentarily. [20:06:14] satdav: file a bug, then, it might be easy to fix :) [20:06:31] there are also https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Social_tools which might be useful [20:07:08] anomie: Oh. And one more doubt, how is the page language related to the ContentHandler class? [20:07:36] kunalg: See ContentHandler::getPageLanguage(). [20:10:48] anomie: I didn't quite get it. In a case where we have the content language in the DB, won't this function be depreceated? [20:12:00] kunalg: Are you just guessing, or did you actually check all the extensions that might be using that hook or overriding the method in their ContentHandler subclasses?? [20:13:18] anomie: I meant the ContentHandler method can in that case just use the title method since it uses the database. [20:13:32] kunalg: For an example in core, MediaWiki-namespace pages have a language already. Are you preserving that, or is someone going to have to go through and set it in the database for every single one? [20:14:24] satdav: Uh, sure, I mean, it just adds a link afaik [20:14:58] !alert fhocutt [20:15:03] @alert fhocutt [20:15:31] hmm [20:15:43] thanks [20:15:44] anomie: I discussed it with bawolff and he suggested to keep it as null until it is set. Currently, the core uses the default wiki language for all pages, so we don't need to set it in database until we have any page with a separate language. [20:15:49] Oh hi fhocutt! [20:15:56] hi sumanah! [20:16:38] Though I wrote a SQL patch for setting it for all pages as well if considered appropriate. [20:16:49] fhocutt: I hope you had a good weekend. [20:17:15] a decent one, thanks. I hope you did! [20:17:16] kunalg: Look into what it currently returns for MediaWiki-namespace pages. It's not going to be returning the default wiki language. [20:17:47] kunalg: Just saying "We'll run through and shove it in the database for all of them" isn't necessarily the right answer. [20:17:48] fhocutt: I hiked in the Hudson Valley and it was lovely. I can see why there was a Hudson River school of painting. The light on the trees was just breathtaking. [20:18:03] sumanah: that sounds fantastic. [20:20:02] YES. Your assessment is correct. :-) So, I see https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/API_talk:Client_code#Comments and want to help by answering a few questions from my perspective [20:21:23] fhocutt: "have a "gold standard" and "platinum standard"" - I agree [20:21:42] yay, answers. Cool. [20:22:17] "consider packaging for distros?" - I would be surprised if there were packaging for distributions of ANY of these API client libraries (e.g., .deb or .rpm files) [20:22:25] but it would be nice! [20:22:50] so, this seems like, whatever is beyond platinum standard. You are the chemist here - what is the most valuable element? [20:23:03] anomie: Oh. Ok. [20:23:51] hah! Depends what for/where you ask/how much of it we've used up already :P [20:24:14] but sure, that can be the pie-in-the-sky standard [20:24:30] "gold-pressed latinum" is a super valuable substance in the Star Trek universe. But that is super in-jokey [20:25:57] on unit tests, fhocutt - I agree that 100% coverage is approximately impossible and not a good standard to meet. We have a qa mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/qa and our head of QA is Chris McMahon and he reads that list. I am thinking now about whether I can offer a suggested standard without consulting him or other QA experts [20:26:46] I don't have QA experience, so substitute "testing best practices" for that [20:27:32] so, one point of unit tests is for a developer of the code it tests, to help her systematically reason about her code and to help her avoid regressions. Another is to sort of reassure the user [20:27:35] * sumanah ponders [20:28:14] and "the more tests the better" is not really a good metric and you can probably imagine why [20:28:26] this must already be a topic that people who know a lot about testing have thought about [20:28:36] like, what kinds of tests ought to be written first and are most important to maintain [20:28:42] prioritizing the writing and maintenance of tests [20:28:53] maintenance, yes [20:28:55] oh hey there SPQRobin, how's it going? [20:30:02] * sumanah looks at web search results [20:30:03] "The approach leverages the development history of the project to generate a prioritized list of functions that managers should focus their unit test writing resources on. " [20:30:58] hi sumanah, I'm fine, though I have exams now :-/ how are you? [20:31:33] I'm all right, SPQRobin. I'm chatting with my intern, fhocutt, who is working right now on evaluating various MediaWiki web API client libraries to see which ones (in each language) are the best [20:31:43] * fhocutt waves [20:31:58] fhocutt: SPQRobin is a longtime MediaWiki contributor who especially has worked on internationalization and on the Wikimedia Incubator, which nurtures smaller wikis [20:32:12] often in less-used human languages [20:32:14] ah, nice. [20:32:20] He did a GSoC project on it as well [20:32:49] SPQRobin: best wishes with your exams. Are you working on any MediaWiki stuff? [20:33:30] sumanah: He is my mentor :) [20:33:37] Cool! [20:34:03] fhocutt: so, the paper I have just skimmed says: "Our findings suggest that heuristics based on the function size, modification frequency and bug fixing frequency should be used to prioritize the unit test writing efforts for legacy systems" [20:34:07] This jibes with other research I have read [20:34:11] sumanah: Thanks. Yeah, I'm mentoring a GSoC project, so I have to review code etc. so it's a busy period! [20:34:36] however, it would be like the work of a whole summer to DESIGN AND IMPLEMENT the statistical analysis necessary to figure that out [20:34:43] yeah seriously. [20:35:12] anomie: If it is a MW namespace page, it returns the user language right? [20:35:13] the other research I've read basically says that bugs gather in code that gets churned a lot [20:35:18] but can put in a description like that next to something like "unit tests exist"? [20:35:23] sure [20:35:38] kunalg: No, that is not correct. [20:35:56] anomie: I didn't quite get it then [20:36:38] (just to finish my thoughts on this point: like, if you want to prioritize writing automated tests or even doing manual tests, it's good to test code paths that a lot of different people have touched. If you were just working with one language & one source control tool, then I might suggest you invest a few days in figuring out how to do that analysis. But not this time.) [20:37:15] sumanah, that makes sense [20:37:54] fhocutt: yeah "unit tests exist" is a good 1-liner for gold standard, and then "unit tests to test lots of code paths exist and are maintained" could be platinum. "lots" I can bikeshed to help define if we want [20:38:09] btw I found the research I found by web-searching the words prioritizing writing unit tests [20:38:39] ok, cool. [20:38:55] because searching for "a phrase" is different from searching for the words "a" and "phrase", you'll see in IRC that sometimes people specify a web search with brackets instead, e.g., [search terms foo] rather than "search terms foo" [20:39:11] or, as I did, just putting a ridiculous number of spaces between regular speech and thing I searched for [20:39:44] Anyway! OK, more on API client library standards. [20:39:59] (useful) [20:40:33] on feedback getting a response within a "reasonable length of time" - I would say that there are not really clear standards on this across FLOSS [20:41:11] but we mostly agree that, for instance, three months is suboptimal [20:41:26] I was thinking under a month? Is that reasonable? [20:41:38] my gut says: "gold standard" is 3 weeks and "platinum" is 3 business days [20:42:38] anomie: I understood that the function basically gets the language if it is something like Mediawiki:Page/es [20:43:08] anomie: But I didn't understand why this is not applicable for other namespaces? [20:43:19] Code of conduct: yup. Agreed. A clear code of conduct that specifies what people ought to do, mentions some examples of what people ought NOT to do, and how it's enforced, is a sign of a thoughtful and inclusive community. For WMF-sponsored technical events (offline) we have https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Friendly_space_policy [20:43:36] yes! [20:43:37] which is better than nothing. For Bugzilla we have https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bug_management/Bugzilla_etiquette [20:44:23] WMF staff also abide by https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_policy " It is also intended to provide guidance for volunteers." [20:44:41] kunalg: in default MediaWiki, only the MW namespace uses subpages with language codes (so MediaWIki:Page/es -> es), but in other namespaces, that's set via extensions (e.g. Translate) [20:44:56] sumanah: hm, ok [20:44:57] kunalg: Now you're on the right track: The MediaWiki namespace is special in that it uses "MediaWiki:name/langcode" for non-default languages. And how about extensions that might do their own sort of thing along similar lines? [20:45:29] sumanah: what do you think of Rust's? http://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1nvsdh/a_note_on_conduct_please_read/ [20:46:05] I think you'll often find that the individual API client libraries, as open source projects, won't have codes of conduct of their own. Right now it seems to mostly be something you see in larger FLOSS projects that have at least dozens of contributors. So I would suggest that gold standard would be that the community seems friendly generally, and/or has one of those toothless "don't be a jerk" policies, and platinum standard would be a real CoC [20:46:10] * sumanah looks [20:46:43] (we would also take into account whether the client libraries' repositories are hosted someplace like BitBucket that does seem to have a good anti-abuse policy) [20:47:06] sumanah: most are on github [20:48:12] "Verbal, physical, written or other abuse (including threats of abuse or retribution) of any GitHub customer, employee, member, or officer will result in immediate account termination." https://help.github.com/articles/github-terms-of-service Which is something. [20:48:20] Oh. Ok. So for MW namespace, we can use the ContentHandler method as earlier to get the page language. And a hook for changing it using extensions. Correct? [20:49:12] sumanah: do you know if they've ever enforced that? [20:49:37] fhocutt: https://github.com/mozilla/rust/wiki/Note-development-policy#conduct seems pretty good to me. Mentions what we want, mentions some things we explicitly do not want, says how they'll enforce things (in the Moderation section below), explains how to find someone who will help [20:50:00] kunalg: you should always use the Title->getPageLanguage() as central function; that should call ContentHandler, the DB and the hook and return the correct language. Calling one of these directly will cause inconsistency. [20:50:21] sumanah, nice. I like that. [20:51:37] fhocutt: GitHub? they took care of http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Anti-Pyladies_accounts_on_GitHub IIRC but I am trying to remember other things and my memory is failing [20:52:05] fhocutt: ok, "easy to use => "uses language idioms"" - are you happy with this or would you like more detailed criteria to go on? [20:52:28] SPQRobin: A doubt, Why will the Title->getPageLanguage() function call the hook? [20:52:41] more detailed criteria would be useful, especially for helping evaluation [20:53:03] though it seems like that one is somewhat "know it when I see it"? [20:53:58] fhocutt: it's going to be more language-dependent and in some cases that is objective and in some it is subjective [20:54:40] kunalg: so that extensions like Translate can set the page language automatically (i.e. the page language selector will not make the hook redundant as some extensions need to be able to set it automatically) [20:54:47] fhocutt: like, I can name you some ways to do things that are "Pythonic" and some kinds of code that would get the job done but are not "Pythonic" but I do not think you want your guidelines to have 5 subclauses each detailing objective language-specific criteria [20:55:35] no, definitely not [20:55:54] I'd like them for myself while I'm doing the evaluations [20:56:06] nod nod [20:56:20] we can go into it then, sure. [20:57:21] fhocutt: Are there any other criteria you'd like more info on now to help you polish? [20:57:38] let me see. [20:58:43] comments on "courteous API usage"? [20:59:07] afaik that includes compression as a default and informative user-agents [20:59:27] also not making more calls than necessary [20:59:58] Oh, Ok. Thank you SPQRobin and anomie [21:00:27] "Courteous API usage is promoted through code samples and smart defaults" - I love it. I suggest you explicitly mention what you just said, about making an efficient # of calls [21:00:57] ok [21:01:46] about breaking changes, how long is it reasonable to wait for a new version? [21:02:00] it would be pie-in-the-sky amazing if the client lib maintainers actually had contacted us in the past for any reason, I think [21:02:16] hah! [21:02:32] fhocutt: you mean, let's say there's a breaking change in the API on Jan 1, and it breaks the client library, so how many weeks is it reasonable to wait for the client lib to update? [21:02:36] yeah [21:02:58] fhocutt: how about, same as for feedback - 3 weeks for gold, 3 business days for platinum [21:03:20] all right, that works [21:03:40] fhocutt: I also wish to call your attention to http://hexm.de/mw-search which is also available as a mediawiki.org search box if you turn it on as a gadget in your preferences. It does a custom Google search across our mailing lists, bug tracker, code repositories, mediawiki.org and wikitech.wikimedia.org I think [21:04:08] could you read over what I have already with an eye for anything that's too big for gold standard? [21:04:09] so if I am all in a fog like "have I ever heard of this person before wrt Wikimedia technology?" I can search for their name or nick and see! [21:04:13] Will do. [21:04:15] * sumanah refreshes [21:08:10] fhocutt: I had to think about "If applicable, library is packaged for installation through PyPI, CPAN, npm, etc." but it feels right for gold standard. Linux distro packaging is platinum! [21:08:34] how about a .msi installer for windows? [21:08:51] Understanding that requires talking to someone who uses Windows and develops on it, I think [21:08:56] MaxSem: do you have a moment? [21:09:07] sure [21:09:09] fhocutt: how do you feel aboout Wikidata support/help/affordances as a gold standard item? [21:09:35] MaxSem: fhocutt is my intern who's working on evaluating, documenting, & improving MediaWiki web API client libraries, for those who prefer working with them [21:09:44] sumanah: that's a standard that very few are going to meet. [21:09:57] fhocutt: MaxSem has worked on the web API and works on the WMF mobile team [21:10:35] sumanah: after working with the API I almost feel like that could easily call for a separate client library. [21:10:47] he lives in San Francisco, same as your timezone. Started off as a volunteer and I successfully requested his time as a GSoC mentor in 2011 and he was great. Thank you MaxSem :) [21:11:40] MaxSem: so, your dev machine is Windows, right? I was wondering what your expectations are when you are downloading a developer tool like a client library for a specific API. Do you expect it to come with a .msi installer? [21:11:41] sumanah: maybe in the future when wikidata is more integrated? but it would take some work and a lot of doc-reading to get most of these existing libraries to handle wikidata. [21:11:53] fhocutt: I'm hearing "pie in the sky" or "platinum" - got it [21:11:54] well, not anymore:P [21:12:15] I have a W7 machile still, but generally don [21:12:22] t use it for dev [21:12:57] what was the question? [21:13:40] MaxSem: back when you WERE a developer on Windows: I was asking "what your expectations are when you are downloading a developer tool like a client library for a specific API. Do you expect it to come with a .msi installer?" [21:13:55] (like, backscroll from a minute ago :) ) [21:13:56] nooooooo [21:14:11] it all depends on ecosystem [21:14:15] * sumanah listens [21:14:26] eg gems for ruby, composer for php etc [21:14:37] MaxSem, fhocutt is concentrating on Ruby, Perl, Python, Java, & JS [21:15:00] so, gems, CPAN, PyPI, ..... [21:15:05] for windows-specific stuff like .net, just a zip with assembly [21:15:15] MSI means global installation [21:15:24] read [DLL hell]] [21:15:29] yes [21:15:40] what is it for Java & JS, MaxSem? [21:15:43] JS ... npm? [21:15:54] (if you know) [21:16:00] basically it would be nice if the libraries were easier to get going on windows for someone who's not super code-savvy, and just wants something to work [21:16:19] to summarize, use whatever is appropriate for your language [21:16:30] cool [21:16:30] because when I installed pip that was an ordeal [21:16:33] hm, ok [21:16:33] msi is for end-user software not libraries [21:16:54] MaxSem: any other tips for what makes it easier for a Windows dev? [21:16:59] ok, good to know--I am not a windows dev! [21:17:04] yes. get a Mac [21:17:10] * MaxSem hides [21:17:13] * sumanah hits instant-rimshot [21:17:41] MaxSem: honest question: why were you using a Windows machine in 2011? [21:18:02] because I have a 10 years BG as a windows dev [21:18:07] ok [21:18:54] I presumed you had a preference for MS. Guess I was wrong! [21:19:05] also, games [21:19:08] oh right [21:19:36] MaxSem: fortunately my command-line games are all cross-platform. (and also terrible.) [21:20:00] * fhocutt grins [21:20:07] also world of goo [21:20:21] MaxSem: anyway - more seriously is there anything we ought to check, as we evaluate/assess things, to help out the Windows folks? [21:20:42] fhocutt: (omg I loved World of Goo. Played it on a Nintendo Wii which I loved for the haptic feedback) [21:20:54] if you want do develop in M$ ecosystem, VS + C# is the choice. for all the rest, platforms with a sane console and packages are preferrable [21:21:39] Are there VisualStudio .... I don't know, configuration files or plugins or something, that projects/codebases give developers to help them? [21:22:02] no [21:22:16] if I get it right what you mean [21:23:14] I think you do. Sorry for vagueness. :) [21:24:06] btw MaxSem please let me know if there's anything in https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment that ought to be prioritized & talked about sooner, decisions needed, etc [21:25:44] fhocutt: so, I think that answers our MSI question [21:25:58] yep, just make sure things are on the package libraries [21:26:11] nod [21:26:17] fhocutt: do you have a sense of what the Java one is? [21:26:24] * sumanah is so utterly removed from the Java ecosystem [21:26:37] not at all. [21:27:35] http://news.dice.com/2013/10/03/a-walk-through-the-java-ecosystem-082/ [21:28:10] Maven, it looks like? [21:28:29] * sumanah also thinks Maven might be it [21:29:16] I am grateful for that walkthrough, but at the same time, I feel like I am alone on a hillside in the encroaching fog, looking at alien trees [21:29:51] * sumanah looks at more sources [21:33:01] yeah, I don't understand Java yet [21:33:08] I was unaware of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Java until today [21:34:50] wow, there is a lot of stuff there [21:35:00] * legoktm quips that [21:35:01] yes [21:41:33] I think the reason I feel emotions of fear and anxiety as I am looking up all this Java stuff is because learning Java-related skills puts me ever closer into the alternate reality in which I am the programmer my parents wanted me to turn into [21:41:44] aw... [21:41:53] instead of the programmer I actually am [21:43:00] :/ [21:43:02] * sumanah remembers the Indian uncles at the temples who wore polo shirts and khakis and talked about Oracle and Cisco and were mid-level engineers in Silicon Valley [21:43:15] * sumanah is *at this very moment* wearing a polo shirt and light-brown trousers [21:43:22] ah, I see. And you most definitely are not in SV. :) [21:45:57] OK! I have decided that this is too much to try to figure out on my own (or your own) and we should just ask an expert, so I'm gonna ask people I know who write Java [21:46:09] fhocutt: what can I help you figure out next? [21:46:49] hm. [21:47:34] hi [21:47:39] hi biberao [22:03:27] fhocutt: I gotta head off in like 3 min. Anything you want before tomorrow? [22:04:11] I mostly have to get those slides/resources together [22:04:42] I'll make another pass on the standards but that ought to be pretty easy, it seems like it's in pretty good shape already [22:05:03] Cool [22:05:10] so I will hopefully have those for you to look at tomorrow [22:05:38] OK! [22:07:28] #mw-prefsection-rendering got very crowded.. [22:07:51] fhocutt: whee. Happy writing/drawing/synthesizing/etc.! [22:07:57] bye for now! [22:08:05] bye! [23:32:58] Hello~ Upon trying to install SocialProfile, I get this: http://pastie.org/9226582 [23:33:21] ashley: ^ [23:33:45] I'm using the latest MW version + the latest social profile, and... That always happens. [23:35:04] Any clue? It's rather frustrating. [23:36:34] Senty: ashley is the developer who maintains SocialProfile, if he's not around I would recommend filing a bug report or asking on https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_talk:SocialProfile [23:37:36] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_talk:SocialProfile#Installation_Error - Somebody had the same error. [23:41:58] hi! [23:42:32] :o [23:43:21] I don't understand why that would happen, but precise versions of everything (MW, PHP, MySQL or whatever DBMS you're using, etc.) would help; though I'll admit it's been a while since I've installed SP so that I've had to run update.php... [23:44:04] legoktm: well, since you're here and we're on the topic of SocialProfile, any clue why the test wiki on Labs (http://social-tools1.instance-proxy.wmflabs.org/) isn't working? [23:44:26] hmm, probably the eqiad migration. I'll fix it [23:44:48] ashley: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_talk:SocialProfile#Cannot_install_-_Gets_stuck_when_adding_databases < Explains everything, I've tried MW versions 1.19-latest. [23:45:06] Ah, I didn't add anything on MySQL: mysqlnd 5.0.10 [23:46:34] seems that you're using the web-based installer instead of the update.php command line script (judging by the tag and everything ;-) [23:47:22] Probably an instant newbie flag, eh? [23:47:38] I truly have no clue what's going on in here, but...it *could* be a weird platform-specific bug that manifests only when trying to upgrade MediaWiki via the web installer; that's something I haven't tested like at all, so I wouldn't really know how it behaves with the web installer [23:47:46] and more like s/newbie/normal person/ ;-) [23:49:09] legoktm: splendid, thanks :D now I'll just need to remember to upgrade all the extensions and whatnot there (does puppet or whatever take care of MW core or should I do it by hand? IIRC it was running something like 1.22alpha or something...) [23:49:31] ashley: http://www.wockymedia.com/hub/Main_Page - Test I've installed, if the errors printed can help at all. [23:50:22] http://www.wockymedia.com/hub/Special:SpecialPages -- judging by that, I'd guess that some files are missing? [23:50:45] I'll take a second look. [23:50:57] ashley: http://social-tools.wmflabs.org/wiki/Main_Page (url changed since it's now running on YuviProxy, but faster!); you'll have to update the extensions+core by hand though [23:51:43] legoktm: my savior <3 thank you! (and hey, shorter URLs are always nice -- as long as we're not talking about twitter-esque t.co/randomstring like URLs >.>) [23:52:10] ashley: There's an RFC for that ;) [23:52:52] heh